Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM Zoc 12-23-04, 09:25 PM	My favorite race, pound-for-pound, has always been the White Dragon. It's powerful enough that you get all of the dragon-y goodness to enjoy, but it's weak enough that it's still playable as a character. The chaotic evil thing can be gotten around with a decent backstory. My only problem is that, after 5 years, I age beyond the point where it's fun to play. Also, very young dragons don't look nearly as attractive as wyrmlings do. At any rate, I seek a way to not advance in age category over time. On the other hand, this is pretty much the same as a high-level monk/druid ability, and it shouldn't be just handed out at no cost. Is my only choice to become a Necropolitan? I know that in 2E a dragon couldn't advance unless it had a suitable horde; you would stay small if you didn't have enough money/magical items. What are your thoughts?
ShadowDragon8685 12-23-04, 10:11 PM	Why dosen't it stay fun to play? *is puzzled.*
obrysii 12-23-04, 10:22 PM	Why dosen't it stay fun to play? *is puzzled.* The ECL becomes prohibitively high.
ShadowDragon8685 12-23-04, 10:28 PM	Are you using the Draconomicon advancement rules for dragons? Just keep taking Dragon HD as your levelups.
DM Zoc 12-24-04, 01:04 AM	I want to play a dragon who is something, not something who is a dragon. I would prefer to be a monk or druid of some sort.
Kursk 12-24-04, 01:10 PM	A white dragon isn't a race but technically a monster. That's why it's in the MM and not the PHB. :tiphat:
ShadowDragon8685 12-24-04, 02:07 PM	Dragons aren't really suited to being monks. If you truely wish to do that kind of thing, I suggest you look in the Draconomicon for dragon classes.
spasheridan 12-24-04, 02:27 PM	My favorite race, pound-for-pound, has always been the White Dragon. It's powerful enough that you get all of the dragon-y goodness to enjoy, but it's weak enough that it's still playable as a character. The chaotic evil thing can be gotten around with a decent backstory. Translation: Uber-powergaming is fun. I'll cherrypick the ecl / power limits of the game and ditch the thing I don't like about it (the alignment). But once the rules force me to stop powergaming with age advancement it just not powerful enough anymore. I start to look like an overpowered PC and not a uberpowered PC. Man this sux0rs! My Reponse: PLay D&D like it was meant to be played, with a race / class out of the PHB.
Megrim_Lord 12-24-04, 03:03 PM	My Reponse: PLay D&D like it was meant to be played, with a race / class out of the PHB. That is only one way the game can be played, there are limitless possibilities, and IMHO all can/should be explored at some time. Just because it doesn't fit your style doesn't mean it can't fit someone elses. to the OP: My suggestion is come up with something interesting in your history and run it by the DM, for example a curse or strange disease that stops the physical effects of aging but not the fact that you would still die of old age, allowing you to advance as a character and not as a dragon from then on.
jerrylee 12-24-04, 03:38 PM	My Reponse: PLay D&D like it was meant to be played, with a race / class out of the PHB. :rolleyes: If D&D were limited to the core races and classes, I would drop it and never look back. I have grown incredibly bored/dissatisfied with more than one CRPG/MMORPG because they just kept regurgitating the same tired old fantasy races of humans/demihumans rather than attempting to do anything new.
PaTRiXXX 12-24-04, 03:58 PM	My Reponse: PLay D&D like it was meant to be played, with a race / class out of the PHB. If you don't have anything inteligent to say, shut your mouth.
Suicidal Cavalry Attack 12-24-04, 04:05 PM	An off the cuff Houserule would be that a dragon must consume X amount of gold to "grow up" once it hit the age qualification. Don't eat the gold, and you cannot advance as a dragon, but you could take the levels in Monk or Druid.
spasheridan 12-24-04, 04:41 PM	That is only one way the game can be played, there are limitless possibilities, and IMHO all can/should be explored at some time. Just because it doesn't fit your style doesn't mean it can't fit someone elses. I can see your point. WotC does have lots of room in the new D&D settings and rules to play variant games, the all dragon, undead, drow, half ogre, anthropormhic monkey.... Maybe a better way to branch out though is to wander into campaign settings where the culture is differant. NPC races are not really quite as balanced as they appear, and they have a tendancy to disrupt the game and break it in glaring places. If D&D were limited to the core races and classes, I would drop it and never look back. I have grown incredibly bored/dissatisfied with more than one CRPG/MMORPG because they just kept regurgitating the same tired old fantasy races of humans/demihumans rather than attempting to do anything new. Well, let's face it, D&D can't regurgitate the same old same old because D&D was the originator of the genre. It has a little history, some roots. All the other newcomers are the immitators with limited originality. If you don't have anything inteligent to say, shut your mouth. Merry Christmas to you to. I'll stick by my opinion though. If you claim that pound for pound the best race is the white dragon, but you have to come up with some background wackiness to avoid the mandatory alignment, and then you get annoyed when the ECL rules break down when you advance in an age category... You are a powergamer. Playing the game the way it was meant to be played, also has some other connotations. D&D is a game about heroic actions, story telling, and character development. And lots of killing. How many villagers will run up to the white dragon wyrmling and ask it to save them from the orcs? How many kings will ask the white dragon wyrmling to save their daughters from the kidnapping assasins? What does the rest of the party look like? Anyways, if the OP is truly searching for a mechanism to play a dragon as a PC, I suggest he sit down with his DM and work out his 20 level progression ahead of time. THere will be requirements for age category increases, balancing factors for class levels, and a slew of issues that should be worked out before the game starts. Create a sample of what your PC would look like at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. See how this sits with your DM and the other players and see if they think it's fun and balanced.
jerrylee 12-24-04, 04:45 PM	Well, let's face it, D&D can't regurgitate the same old same old because D&D was the originator of the genre. It has a little history, some roots. All the other newcomers are the immitators with limited originality. hay guys whos tolkien lol am i rite
spasheridan 12-24-04, 04:50 PM	hay guys whos tolkien lol am i rite How's that spelling coming along Jerry? Tolkien is an author. He wrote a series of books about a fantasy world. D&D has some similarities to Tolkien. Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, Orcs, Dragons. And that's about it. Tolkien has a low magic fantasy world. D&D is a high magic fantasy world. Your orriginal post was.. let me see... I have grown incredibly bored/dissatisfied with more than one CRPG/MMORPG because they just kept regurgitating Hrm, I see CRPG / MMORPG. That means computer and online roleplaying games I assume. D&D is over 30 years old. It's the original RPG. Pen and Payer style.. is that a PPRPG?
jerrylee 12-24-04, 05:02 PM	How's that spelling coming along Jerry? Pretty well. How's that ability to discern sarcasm coming along? And that's about it. Tolkien has a low magic fantasy world. D&D is a high magic fantasy world. Not necessarily. Oh wait, I forgot, you dismiss the possibility of anyone customizing the game to enhance their enjoyment of it or to create variety in the gaming experience. Your orriginal post was.. let me see... Hrm, I see CRPG / MMORPG. That means computer and online roleplaying games I assume. D&D is over 30 years old. It's the original RPG. Pen and Payer style.. is that a PPRPG? I said "fantasy races", not "CRPG/MMORPG races." I cited those types of games because they are the ones that I most often encounter limited race selections in. To some degree, this is because of the limits imposed by their media, but as the capabilities of computers and consoles increases, blame is starting to shift towards lack of developer imagination. Fortunately, this is not a problem with D&D-- unless one is playing with people who artificially limit race and class choices, as you seem to be advocating. If it were more of a problem, I would have switched systems long ago. And the fact that the cliche was started by novels rather than by a role-playing game means nothing. The stereotypical chaotic good Drow ranger originated in a series of novels. That doesn't mean I won't roll my eyes if I see that character in a game (although I won't challenge anybody's right to play such a character if their group is okay with it).
ShadowDragon8685 12-24-04, 05:04 PM	spasheridan, if you ain't got anything constructive or nice to say, DON'T OPEN YOUR PIE HOLE! Now drop and give me fifty! I see his point. The ageing is a problem, because he's basically forced to take a phantom level and then a Dragon HD to go up an age catagory that he would've rather have had as two more levels of monk or something.
darkness ninja of light 12-24-04, 05:18 PM	While D&D doesn't just have to be with the core rules and such, you must also note that this person seems to be suggesting that s/he plays with white dragons for the most part, and for power game reasons, rather than exploring new possibilities. It's not a big deal (it may not even be necassarily true), but the people who are voicing their dislike of it are just doing the same thing as those of you who are ranting about spasheridan. In any case this person wanted help......not roleplaying advice, nor rants about the other people posting on this thread. Perhaps you can talk with your DM about a magic item that works like the druid/monk ability? Is there one of those already? There are also some planes that work like that, but I don't know how willing your DM would be to have entire adventures on them.
Wil Harvey 12-24-04, 05:19 PM	If you don't have anything inteligent to say, shut your mouth. Sorry, but this gleeful irony just had to be pointed out.
spasheridan 12-24-04, 05:29 PM	spasheridan, if you ain't got anything constructive or nice to say, DON'T OPEN YOUR PIE HOLE! Now drop and give me fifty! And this was nice or constructive in what way???? Public board my friend. Just sharing my opinions. Not necessarily. Oh wait, I forgot, you dismiss the possibility of anyone customizing the game to enhance their enjoyment of it or to create variety in the gaming experience. This is in my response about the disimilarity to Tolkien and D&D? I fail to see the connection. I pointed out that the works of Tolkien were a basis for some aspects of D&D but that D&D is by and large a very differant setting then Middle Earth. Pointing out differances means I dismiss possibilities? I said "fantasy races", not "CRPG/MMORPG races." I cited those types of games because they are the ones that I most often encounter limited race selections in. To some degree, this is because of the limits imposed by their media, but as the capabilities of computers and consoles increases, blame is starting to shift towards lack of developer imagination. Hrm... you said... If D&D were limited to the core races and classes, I would drop it and never look back. I have grown incredibly bored/dissatisfied with more than one CRPG/MMORPG because they just kept regurgitating the same tired old fantasy races of humans/demihumans rather than attempting to do anything new. I see in here that you are tired of games regurgitating old tired fantasy races. My point is that since D&D was the originator of the RPG then D&D is not regurgitating the fantasy races. Your new post seems to be about lack of imagination in newer titles. Well, there are several newer titles that definitly lack imagination. But they are not D&D. Anywho, I'll leave you folks to your dragons as PCs. Please, next time, someone put "Voices of reason need not speak in this post" somewhere at the top so I know not to bother you with differing opinions. Small minds can only handle so many ideas at once and I'd rather not cause you any permanent damage this way.
obrysii 12-24-04, 05:32 PM	You are a powergamer. Hum. Have you ever -seen- the stats for a wyrmling white dragon? They are hardly min/maxable unless you're going for raw mobility. They get: *Tiny size *+2 con, -4 int, -4 cha *+2 natural armor *Speed: 60 ft., burrow 30 ft., fly 150 ft. (average), swim 60 ft. *+8 racial bonus on swim, due to swim speed *1d6 breath weapon *Immunity to Cold *Vulnerability to Fire *Icewalking: A climb speed in icy areas *3 racial HD *1 bite (1d4) as primary *2 claws (1d3) as secondary So yes, they deserve a +2 LA, but they are NOT power-gamey at all. Most ECL 5 creatures don't have a net -6 to ability scores.
DM Zoc 12-24-04, 05:36 PM	Interesting comments, all. There are several things I should say: First of all, monkeys are already anthropomorphic; it's their default form. Second of all, I have a lot more experience playing chaotic and/or evil white dragons than I do otherwise. I also have a good amount of experience roleplaying characters who think and act as though they were white dragons, generally without any of the nifty abilities. It's just that I sympathize with the "weakest and most pathetic" creatures; is it any surprise that my favorite humanoid is the kobold? I've not yet had the opportunity to play a white dragon as a character, both for lack of DMs willing to run such a thing, and for lack of a solution to the question posted here. I ask that you keep coming with the options, so that I might choose the one most suitable for my character. (As a side note, if I only wanted the physical prowess of the white dragon, it is fairly easy to attain on a permanent basis with a simple druid.)
jerrylee 12-24-04, 05:38 PM	This is in my response about the disimilarity to Tolkien and D&D? I fail to see the connection. I pointed out that the works of Tolkien were a basis for some aspects of D&D but that D&D is by and large a very differant setting then Middle Earth. Pointing out differances means I dismiss possibilities? My point was that whether D&D is a high or low magic setting depends entirely on the whims of the DM (and, by implied consent, the players). But if one's worldview is limited to the three core books, then yes, I suppose it is limited to a high magic setting. I see in here that you are tired of games regurgitating old tired fantasy races. My point is that since D&D was the originator of the RPG then D&D is not regurgitating the fantasy races. D&D is the originator of the RPG, yes, but it is not the originator of many of the fantasy elements it includes. Many of these, once again, can be traced back to Tolkien. Your new post seems to be about lack of imagination in newer titles. Well, there are several newer titles that definitly lack imagination. But they are not D&D. Agreed. Imagination is allowed to flourish in D&D, in no small part because people like you aren't allowed to tell people like me and the OP what we can and can't do in our games (such as allowing ourselves to use noncore races). Anywho, I'll leave you folks to your dragons as PCs. Please, next time, someone put "Voices of reason need not speak in this post" somewhere at the top so I know not to bother you with differing opinions. Small minds can only handle so many ideas at once and I'd rather not cause you any permanent damage this way. So we have small minds, and (by implication) you have a broad, open mind? You who, once again, advocated the following: PLay D&D like it was meant to be played, with a race / class out of the PHB. I believe the utter illogic with which you accuse us of having small minds demonstrates that you are no longer worth my time to argue with. Good day. Oh, and just in general: I don't approve the choosing of LA races for powergaming purposes and then trying to skirt the limitations LA imposes. I do, however, believe people should be able to play races they wish without finding it a constant exercise in frustration. @the OP: As others have said, try the Draconomicon and/or monster classes, and sorry for starting a mini-flame war in your thread.
Vriishnak 12-24-04, 05:41 PM	Okay, how about the fact that he wants to eliminate aging from his progression in favour of class levels? That seems kinda powergamey, doesn't it?
Shard of Suzail 12-24-04, 05:51 PM	I`m puzzled as to the choice of white dragon. Now, according to the draconomicon, white dragons are more like animals than a playable dragon race. Really, they should make poor characters. I can see the logic of taking one as a barbarian type, but keeping such a beast young makes no sense.
Razoreface 12-24-04, 05:58 PM	Okay, how about the fact that he wants to eliminate aging from his progression in favour of class levels? That seems kinda powergamey, doesn't it? It's not, not in and of itself. To be power gamey, you really have to be looking for strong advantages that shouldn't be there. If what he was saying was he wanted the physical attributes of a much older dragon, with all the age category dice removed so he could progress as a class... then yes. But there is no real direct advantage to being a mentally crippled level 5 character with only three hitdice. Someone could make the concept work, but with any of the younger age categories of dragon, they just don't really have the physical advantages... and none of the good special abilities. If he aged, he'd go from a 2 LA to a 3, and he'd gain 2 strength. A lot of people might look at that and think it's good, but he's also forced to taking three levels of dragon, which is not so good. is it any surprise that my favorite humanoid is the kobold? What's wrong with kobolds! How exactly does one "backstory" away an alignment so ingrained into a species that it can be a monk of all things. Beyond that.. I'm not exactly sure how a wyrmling white dragon is a good uh.. race(?) to play. Like obrysii pointed out... it has a +2 con, -4 int, -4 charisma. It's Tiny. That means even if it's a monk, the monk unarmed damage is going to.. uhm. Bite. And it'll bite worse than a wyrmling's actual bite. It should be the same damage as the claws. Why wouldn't you just take multiattack and have 1d4/1d3/1d3, plus some strength damage.. and hopefully you have strength, since you are the world's worst arcane caster. :) As a level 5 character.. LA 2, 3 HD, it's really on the pretty weak side. You're level six before you can take your first level of anything, with caster class hitpoints without the caster class stats, along with the caster AC, and a breath weapon that might kill some kobolds. If you were fighting kobolds at level five. And it can't innately cast anything yet. And oh.. those level 5 enemy wizards are going to target you like white on.. dragon rice. As something to fight, a group of level 5 enemies see you as a pretty easy kill. You're a CR 2 on your own. On the plus side, you can run away really fast. The ECL of a very young is only one higher. A VY White is a level 9 character. You still can't innately cast. You still have no spell resistance. Orcs laugh at your breath weapon. Your CR has gone up to 3.. you're clearly still not a threat to almost anyone. At least your running away ability is still good. Which you might need, because an orc hunting party could probably kill you. Someone.. really. Tell me how a wyrmling dragon, with the stat modifiers they have, with the lack of any useful powers, not having the triple standard treasure, campaigning in some frozen place so you can eat frosty food all the time (I really can't see 1d6 breath weapon freezing a target stiff for you to devour :D), is a good and overpowered class to choose? I'm trying to see an advantage to taking one, but the only one I can really think of is hey, you can be your own pack mule. As a DM, I might be compelled to let someone backstory away the extreme alignment other basically ingrained racial traits of such an evil dragon with some really creative writing and roleplaying, just because I feel sorry for this mini-monster they've chosen to try to use as a character. Personally, I can't even think of a class that I'd want to venture attempting with such a horrible outlook for surviving any kind of combat. Maybe I'm just not that kind of creative. But.. how long is your campaign, Zoc? If you're in a campaign that's going to end after 2-3 years of game time, your tiny little dragon isn't going to have much of a problem growing up.
PaTRiXXX 12-24-04, 06:53 PM	Spasheridan you're right, my post was not very bright. But why do you post if you have nothing to help him with? You just post to tell him to use YOUR personal style when HE plays D&D. I don't think it's very bright. If you can't help then don't post, no one is forcing you to. This way you just make people don't come again to this board.
DM Zoc 12-24-04, 08:24 PM	This is a very interesting conversation, actually. Both sides have lots of support, and I've been on both sides of the argument in the past. At one point, I even argued fairly strongly that a dragon could never change its alignment because they are more like a force of nature than anything else. On the other hand, there's no reason why it has to be that way. A good amount of what can or cannot be is up to DM interpretation, and I know a few DMs who would say that anything that can potential have a 14 intelligence is sentient enough to be a character (even a wizard... with a very small spellbook). Even if a white dragon would normally always be chaotic evil, there are other reasons why this situation might arise. Permanently changing shape is a possibility with the appropriate ritual or a suitable-worded Wish spell (see Savage Species for details). Maybe a wizard has become an outlaw, and seeks a suitable form that is both good at hiding and running away; as far as I can tell, nothing is as good as a white wyrmling when it comes to running away!
WizO_Catoblepas 12-24-04, 11:17 PM	Ok everyone I think there is a very interesting discusson going on here. However, it seems intermixed with baiting, something that is against the Code of Conduct. Thus, please keep the posts to the subject matter of the thread and not other guests. Otherwise, I'm going to have to give Official Warns to the offenders who continue. Hopefully, it won't come to that. Have a happy holiday season. :)
Shazarn 12-25-04, 01:50 AM	I would say tht you don't mature at all, unlike the druid and monk however you don't get the bonuses either.
Edymnion 12-25-04, 10:29 PM	I'm throwing my vote in with the PHB only races side. Because, frankly, if you can't make a fun, interesting character to roleplay out of a human fighter in full plate, large shield, and longsword, I feel sorry for you, I really do. I have actually walked out on games where the DM let the Players take things like dragons and minotaurs as playable races. And I would do so again in a heartbeat. Kind of game I prefer to play has more to do with character development with enough combat to keep it interesting, and frankly, monster races aren't good roleplaying. They're a crutch. Every single time I have seen it done (when it wasn't intentionally being done as a gag campaign), the players have fallen into playing a stereotype. The race of your character has NOTHING to do with how fun it is to roleplay. If you think it does, I highly suggest you re-evaluate how you look at the game. If hack and slash, gotta kill 'em all is how you play, thats fine, it has it's own merits, and freaky races help spice it up. If you're trying to make fun characters that you would enjoy playing if no one ever rolled a single die for the entire campaign, and you absolutely must have something out of the MM to enjoy playing the game, then I suggest you step back and look at how you play them. Are you actually playing something original, or are you just plugging the pieces of race/class/weapon together, and playing a stereotype based off of that? I may be wrong. Perhaps people like these are great roleplayers that make highly memorable characters. My ultimate test though, ask one of the other players if they remember <insert character name here>. Don't tell them race, or class, or weapon, or anything else, just the character's name. And it has to be a character you haven't played for at least 6 months. If they remember it, and can tell you the basic idea of the character's outlook on life, then congratulations, you're a good roleplayer. If they ask you "Which one was that again?", then chances are you're just a good rollplayer.
jerrylee 12-26-04, 01:46 AM	I'm throwing my vote in with the PHB only races side. Because, frankly, if you can't make a fun, interesting character to roleplay out of a human fighter in full plate, large shield, and longsword, I feel sorry for you, I really do. I have actually walked out on games where the DM let the Players take things like dragons and minotaurs as playable races. And I would do so again in a heartbeat. Kind of game I prefer to play has more to do with character development with enough combat to keep it interesting, and frankly, monster races aren't good roleplaying. They're a crutch. Every single time I have seen it done (when it wasn't intentionally being done as a gag campaign), the players have fallen into playing a stereotype. I do see where you are coming from, but just about anything non-core (and some core stuff, in all likelihood) can be used as a crutch or an alternative to good roleplaying. Monster races are hardly unique in this respect. Playing a monster race does not automatically make someone a poor roleplayer. Nor are monster races somehow impossible to roleplay well: in fact, if anything, they should offer more opportunities to roleplay, representing as they do a role that is even further from our normal human experience than most of the PHB races. Further, if someone is a cruddy roleplayer, how will forcing them to play a stock sword-and-board human fighter make the game with them any more tolerable? I'd walk out on those same players, but not because they chose monster classes. In short: Correlation, not causation. I may be wrong. Perhaps people like these are great roleplayers that make highly memorable characters. Glad to see you at least acknowledge this.
LordArkan 12-26-04, 03:02 AM	My ultimate test though, ask one of the other players if they remember <insert character name here>. Don't tell them race, or class, or weapon, or anything else, just the character's name. And it has to be a character you haven't played for at least 6 months. If they remember it, and can tell you the basic idea of the character's outlook on life, then congratulations, you're a good roleplayer. If they ask you "Which one was that again?", then chances are you're just a good rollplayer. What if everyone remembers your character anyway, because it was part of a three year long campaign? :P
Razoreface 12-26-04, 01:52 PM	What if everyone remembers your monster race character because the character was that disruptive and irritating, because it was such a freaking monster? :)
DM Zoc 12-29-04, 03:31 PM	I guess the thread died. Oh well, thanks for all your help. :)