I don't want wings. [Archive] - Wizards Community

I don't want wings. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ThePyrozoan
11-27-07, 06:50 PM Another question: In the Half-Celestial Template (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersH-I.rtf), is it a fair trade: celestial wings for the Eladrin (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersE-F.rtf)'s Tongues ability?
Sir_Chivalry
11-27-07, 06:57 PM Well, as Tongues is mainly a social thing, and wings have a tactical benefit, as a DM I would allow it, even going to far as to give you another small benefit as well.
Fatalis_902
11-27-07, 07:07 PM Given that a Monk can get a Tongues-esque ability, sure, why not? If it can be done without templates, why not mod a template to do something reasonable like that?
MareltEkiran
11-27-07, 07:41 PM I have to agree that it's a fair (somewhat unfavorable) trade-off. A 3rd level effect that can be permanized and lasts for 10 minutes per level instead of a 3rd level effect that cannot be permanized and lasts for 1 minute per level.

... but why... why would anyone not want a set of beautiful feathery wings... wings look so hot...
ThePyrozoan
11-28-07, 08:13 PM Yeah. But they're the only huge thing separating a half-celestial's appearance from that of a human's. A gorgeous human at that. Also, the character will be a a rogue sorceror with lots of ranks in bluff and diplomacy. Mmhm. So all languages is helpful.
metalmayhem80110
11-29-07, 04:07 AM All languagesis always helpful, but wings are too...

I would be curious as to the reasoning as why you didn't have the wings. If you had an actual reason for your half-celestial character not to have wings, I'd base the benefit off of that.

(As a side note, just play a saint from the Book of exalted Deeds. It's a really cool template, and it has tongues as one of its many abilities. It's only a 2 LA template too!)
Tovec
11-29-07, 03:53 PM This is yet another thing that would separate a good DM from a bad one.

The rules technically say that you get wings with no chance to swap out abilities.

A Good DM may allow Tongues instead of Wings. They still may say no but they will think about it first.
A Bad DM would just say no without thinking about it because the rules only say Wings.

I'm of course going with general opinion, yes I would allow you Tongues but talk to your DM and see what they say. If they say no, respect the decision.

(As a side note, just play a saint from the Book of exalted Deeds. It's a really cool template, and it has tongues as one of its many abilities. It's only a 2 LA template too!)
I read that last night. Its a +2 LA with 7 HD.
Wih
11-29-07, 06:23 PM I read that last night. Its a +2 LA with 7 HD.

The example creature has 7 HD - it's just a +2 LA template.

To the OP tho - Tongues is weaker than Wings. Not only the example given by MareltEkiran, but also Tongues is a SU ability, while Wings are EX.
I'd allow it in a heartbeat, but warn the player it's technically a weaker trade-off. Remember - you can only speak the language, you can't read it. Also, it'll stop functioning in an Anti-Magic zone etc.
DyloniusFunk
11-30-07, 10:36 AM I would allow it simply due to the fact that you're trading in a combat ability for a role playing one. Let's be honest, how often will having wings be useful out of combat, and how useful is Tounges in combat, aside from trying insane Diplomacicer cheese
metalmayhem80110
12-01-07, 06:00 AM I would allow it simply due to the fact that you're trading in a combat ability for a role playing one. Let's be honest, how often will having wings be useful out of combat, and how useful is Tounges in combat, aside from trying insane Diplomacicer cheese

You'd be amazed how often I use flight out of combat...

(I feel retarded for spelling languages wrong in my earlier post too, lol)

On a side not, Saint is a 2 LA template, the creature has 7HD (As was stated before).
Tovec
12-01-07, 04:46 PM The example creature has 7 HD - it's just a +2 LA template.

To the OP tho - Tongues is weaker than Wings. Not only the example given by MareltEkiran, but also Tongues is a SU ability, while Wings are EX.
I'd allow it in a heartbeat, but warn the player it's technically a weaker trade-off. Remember - you can only speak the language, you can't read it. Also, it'll stop functioning in an Anti-Magic zone etc.

After posting what I did I went back and re-read the description and noted the 7HD were paladin levels. Noticing that I really really like the Saint as a possible race. If I were playing a good guy and wanted to be a really good guy its seems like the perfect race.
ThePyrozoan
12-02-07, 12:01 AM Maybe wings for tongues at -1 LA?
Garret Lightfoot
12-02-07, 01:59 AM On a side not, Saint is a 2 LA template, the creature has 7HD (As was stated before).

Actually, the Saint template requires at least 6th level and 3 exalted feats.
Dragonsblood
12-02-07, 04:00 AM If you don't like the look of wings because you don't look human, get something like a hat of disguise.
Empirate
12-03-07, 08:46 AM If you're playing a Saint for mechanical benefits, you're not getting the point of roleplaying.
Read up on Francis of Assisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi), or Catherine of Siena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena), or Jeanne d'Arc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_d%27Arc). Crazy characters to play. Literally.
Wih
12-03-07, 07:00 PM After posting what I did I went back and re-read the description and noted the 7HD were paladin levels. Noticing that I really really like the Saint as a possible race. If I were playing a good guy and wanted to be a really good guy its seems like the perfect race.

Saint isn't a race - it's a template. And it's not just "good". You've got your good characters. Then you've got your paladins - they make Good look like Neutral. Then you've got your Exalted characters - they make Paladins look like shifty rogues. Then you've got Saints. Saints are hard, hard hard to play. You need to have never commited an evil act. EVER.
If you want to try, try. But be aware it comes with HEAVY roleplaying.
Tovec
12-03-07, 11:03 PM I'm going to have to say relax. I was just commenting that I went back and noticed that it had 7 paladin HD. I also noted that it looks really interesting to play if I want to play that bat-****-insanely good good guy. I can pull of the bat-****-insanely good good guy but I don't do it often. Try and relax. You are putting waaay too much time and interest into a side note, this thread is about not wanting wings.
metalmayhem80110
12-07-07, 04:47 AM I'm going to have to say relax. I was just commenting that I went back and noticed that it had 7 paladin HD. I also noted that it looks really interesting to play if I want to play that bat-****-insanely good good guy. I can pull of the bat-****-insanely good good guy but I don't do it often. Try and relax. You are putting waaay too much time and interest into a side note, this thread is about not wanting wings.

Lol, I'm not trying to be rude or anything... But isn't the whole idea of playing a celestial character playing the more than good character? So saint is kinda the same thing?
Tovec
12-10-07, 12:16 AM Lol, I'm not trying to be rude or anything... But isn't the whole idea of playing a celestial character playing the more than good character? So saint is kinda the same thing?

It should be, yes. I didn't realize that saints make angels look like baby-killers and that angels make celestials look like necromancers and that celestials make paladins look like slave mongers. But apparently they do.
metalmayhem80110
12-14-07, 04:36 AM It should be, yes. I didn't realize that saints make angels look like baby-killers and that angels make celestials look like necromancers and that celestials make paladins look like slave mongers. But apparently they do.

Wow, you should get a thousand cookies for that. I am truely humbled now :P, that was amazingingly awesome :D
Lincoln Hills
12-14-07, 05:55 PM You didn't? There's a T-shirt stand on the slopes of Mt. Celestia where they can provide appropriate garb for the convenience of those who don't have detect good at will. Just choose the one that suits you!

JUST WROTE 'LG' ON MY CHARACTER SHEET
WROTE OUT 'LAWFUL GOOD' ON MY CHARACTER SHEET
ACTUALLY TRIES
USUALLY SUCCEEDS
BATTING A THOUSAND
WAY BETTER THAN YOU MERE MORTAL PEONS
HAVE NEVER HAD AN EVIL THOUGHT
DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION 'HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN EVIL THOUGHT?'
GOODEST
MOST GOODEST
and, of course, WAY BETTER THAN MOST GOODEST +5.
Tovec
12-15-07, 03:39 PM Wow, you should get a thousand cookies for that. I am truely humbled now :P, that was amazingingly awesome :D

Yay, I win at cookies. My life is complete. [/sarcasm] I really get on a roll when it comes to sarcasm sometimes. So much so that people often don't know when I'm not being sarcastic, that's why I put the '[sarcasm]' tags.

So, ThePyrozoan, what ever happened with your game? Did you DM allow you to have tongues instead of wings?
Saiato
12-15-07, 04:12 PM This is yet another thing that would separate a good DM from a bad one.

The rules technically say that you get wings with no chance to swap out abilities.

A Good DM may allow Tongues instead of Wings. They still may say no but they will think about it first.
A Bad DM would just say no without thinking about it because the rules only say Wings.

Actually, in the MM it says, "HALF-CELESTIAL
No matter the form, half-celestials are always comely and delightful to the senses, having golden skin, sparkling eyes, angelic wings, or some other sign of their higher nature. " so technically if the PC was the decedent of an Eladrin he could have tongues.
Tovec
12-15-07, 09:20 PM Actually, in the MM it says, "HALF-CELESTIAL
No matter the form, half-celestials are always comely and delightful to the senses, having golden skin, sparkling eyes, angelic wings, or some other sign of their higher nature. " so technically if the PC was the decedent of an Eladrin he could have wings.

Again, that's taken at book value. Many DM's, especially good ones, will allow their players some leeway with things of this type. A player may not want wings for a variety of reasons. A DM may not want to give them tongues for another variety of reasons. As I stated a while ago, the book says you get wings. Even if you don't want wings the best you can do is cut them off, according to the book. As a DM, I would allow Tongues instead of Wings unless tongues gives you too much of an unfair advantage over other party members. Advantages where I wouldn't allow it would be a language heavy game where access to tongues is restricted. In reverse if the game was heavy into flying and the template offered tongues I might say no in that situation too. In general the tongues and wings are about evenly matched and I don't see any reason, given the circumstances, that they shouldn't be trade-able. No matter what, the DM had to approve the exchange.
UltimateReality
12-16-07, 08:57 PM Saints are an amazingly broken template. Most DMs with an ounce of sense will probably say no to it immediately. They are incredibly difficult to roleplay -- one evil act and all your exalted feats are GONE. Forever. Irrevocably. You lose any and all benefits from them, cannot atone for it in any way whatsoever, etc. etc. BoED is very clear on this. It's a really awesome concept for a book, but very very difficult to balance mechanically with the rest of the game -- and very difficult to find players who want to step up to the challenge of rping it.

Anyway, re: wings vs. tongues, I'd let you do it. WotC generally seems to have valued wings at about a +3 LA throughout 3.5 edition. I'd probably lower your LA on the template or work out some extra goodies that are appropriate for your character. Probably the former, as high LAs really suck, especially if you're playing a caster. (Can't get those level 9 spells til you're at least level 21 as a full caster now, and you're playing a rogue/sor which will make it even worse...) Then again, I also allow level adjustment buy-off from UA, so we could work with the latter scenario too.
metalmayhem80110
12-17-07, 04:39 AM Saints are an amazingly broken template. Most DMs with an ounce of sense will probably say no to it immediately. They are incredibly difficult to roleplay -- one evil act and all your exalted feats are GONE. Forever. Irrevocably. You lose any and all benefits from them, cannot atone for it in any way whatsoever, etc. etc. BoED is very clear on this. It's a really awesome concept for a book, but very very difficult to balance mechanically with the rest of the game -- and very difficult to find players who want to step up to the challenge of rping it.

You just listed why the template isn't broken like many nooby DM's believe it is... Yes, it is one of the stronger templates, but it also comes with the biggest drawback of any template...

How many templates out there give you the oppurtunity to lose all of the abilities/feats you spent, and get to keep the LA!!! Sounds broken to me :P
UltimateReality
12-17-07, 04:32 PM You just listed why the template isn't broken like many nooby DM's believe it is... Yes, it is one of the stronger templates, but it also comes with the biggest drawback of any template...

How many templates out there give you the oppurtunity to lose all of the abilities/feats you spent, and get to keep the LA!!! Sounds broken to me :P

I don't believe you can (or should try) to balance mechanics with roleplaying restrictions.

Therefore, I think it's still broken, despite the RP restrictions on it.
Voran
12-17-07, 05:18 PM The wings you can 'grow' from Dragon Shaman (or some other dragon themed classes) kinda bugs me to. I figured just make it a supernatural effect, which summons ethereal wings or whatever, but if you get dispelled or anti-magic zoned, they go poof. So largely you get the same benefit as the normal fly spell, just usable at will, and with a unique visual effect.

In the OP, substituting wings with lesser abilities should be fine, but you might wanna see if you can get 'summoned wings' or something.
metalmayhem80110
12-18-07, 03:41 AM I don't believe you can (or should try) to balance mechanics with roleplaying restrictions.

Therefore, I think it's still broken, despite the RP restrictions on it.

Why don't you think things should be balanced with RP restrictions? Unless you're a hack/slash game ONLY, this works out well.

Besides... Go over to the character optimization boards if you want to see powerful builds. Maybe 1% of them (If that) use the sainted template... This is because the LA is NEVER worth what you can get in class levels. This template is no more broken than somebody going straight wizard...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThePyrozoan 11-27-07, 06:50 PM	Another question: In the Half-Celestial Template (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersH-I.rtf), is it a fair trade: celestial wings for the Eladrin (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersE-F.rtf)'s Tongues ability?
Sir_Chivalry 11-27-07, 06:57 PM	Well, as Tongues is mainly a social thing, and wings have a tactical benefit, as a DM I would allow it, even going to far as to give you another small benefit as well.
Fatalis_902 11-27-07, 07:07 PM	Given that a Monk can get a Tongues-esque ability, sure, why not? If it can be done without templates, why not mod a template to do something reasonable like that?
MareltEkiran 11-27-07, 07:41 PM	I have to agree that it's a fair (somewhat unfavorable) trade-off. A 3rd level effect that can be permanized and lasts for 10 minutes per level instead of a 3rd level effect that cannot be permanized and lasts for 1 minute per level. ... but why... why would anyone not want a set of beautiful feathery wings... wings look so hot...
ThePyrozoan 11-28-07, 08:13 PM	Yeah. But they're the only huge thing separating a half-celestial's appearance from that of a human's. A gorgeous human at that. Also, the character will be a a rogue sorceror with lots of ranks in bluff and diplomacy. Mmhm. So all languages is helpful.
metalmayhem80110 11-29-07, 04:07 AM	All languagesis always helpful, but wings are too... I would be curious as to the reasoning as why you didn't have the wings. If you had an actual reason for your half-celestial character not to have wings, I'd base the benefit off of that. (As a side note, just play a saint from the Book of exalted Deeds. It's a really cool template, and it has tongues as one of its many abilities. It's only a 2 LA template too!)
Tovec 11-29-07, 03:53 PM	This is yet another thing that would separate a good DM from a bad one. The rules technically say that you get wings with no chance to swap out abilities. A Good DM may allow Tongues instead of Wings. They still may say no but they will think about it first. A Bad DM would just say no without thinking about it because the rules only say Wings. I'm of course going with general opinion, yes I would allow you Tongues but talk to your DM and see what they say. If they say no, respect the decision. (As a side note, just play a saint from the Book of exalted Deeds. It's a really cool template, and it has tongues as one of its many abilities. It's only a 2 LA template too!) I read that last night. Its a +2 LA with 7 HD.
Wih 11-29-07, 06:23 PM	I read that last night. Its a +2 LA with 7 HD. The example creature has 7 HD - it's just a +2 LA template. To the OP tho - Tongues is weaker than Wings. Not only the example given by MareltEkiran, but also Tongues is a SU ability, while Wings are EX. I'd allow it in a heartbeat, but warn the player it's technically a weaker trade-off. Remember - you can only speak the language, you can't read it. Also, it'll stop functioning in an Anti-Magic zone etc.
DyloniusFunk 11-30-07, 10:36 AM	I would allow it simply due to the fact that you're trading in a combat ability for a role playing one. Let's be honest, how often will having wings be useful out of combat, and how useful is Tounges in combat, aside from trying insane Diplomacicer cheese
metalmayhem80110 12-01-07, 06:00 AM	I would allow it simply due to the fact that you're trading in a combat ability for a role playing one. Let's be honest, how often will having wings be useful out of combat, and how useful is Tounges in combat, aside from trying insane Diplomacicer cheese You'd be amazed how often I use flight out of combat... (I feel retarded for spelling languages wrong in my earlier post too, lol) On a side not, Saint is a 2 LA template, the creature has 7HD (As was stated before).
Tovec 12-01-07, 04:46 PM	The example creature has 7 HD - it's just a +2 LA template. To the OP tho - Tongues is weaker than Wings. Not only the example given by MareltEkiran, but also Tongues is a SU ability, while Wings are EX. I'd allow it in a heartbeat, but warn the player it's technically a weaker trade-off. Remember - you can only speak the language, you can't read it. Also, it'll stop functioning in an Anti-Magic zone etc. After posting what I did I went back and re-read the description and noted the 7HD were paladin levels. Noticing that I really really like the Saint as a possible race. If I were playing a good guy and wanted to be a really good guy its seems like the perfect race.
ThePyrozoan 12-02-07, 12:01 AM	Maybe wings for tongues at -1 LA?
Garret Lightfoot 12-02-07, 01:59 AM	On a side not, Saint is a 2 LA template, the creature has 7HD (As was stated before). Actually, the Saint template requires at least 6th level and 3 exalted feats.
Dragonsblood 12-02-07, 04:00 AM	If you don't like the look of wings because you don't look human, get something like a hat of disguise.
Empirate 12-03-07, 08:46 AM	If you're playing a Saint for mechanical benefits, you're not getting the point of roleplaying. Read up on Francis of Assisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi), or Catherine of Siena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena), or Jeanne d'Arc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_d%27Arc). Crazy characters to play. Literally.
Wih 12-03-07, 07:00 PM	After posting what I did I went back and re-read the description and noted the 7HD were paladin levels. Noticing that I really really like the Saint as a possible race. If I were playing a good guy and wanted to be a really good guy its seems like the perfect race. Saint isn't a race - it's a template. And it's not just "good". You've got your good characters. Then you've got your paladins - they make Good look like Neutral. Then you've got your Exalted characters - they make Paladins look like shifty rogues. Then you've got Saints. Saints are hard, hard hard to play. You need to have never commited an evil act. EVER. If you want to try, try. But be aware it comes with HEAVY roleplaying.
Tovec 12-03-07, 11:03 PM	I'm going to have to say relax. I was just commenting that I went back and noticed that it had 7 paladin HD. I also noted that it looks really interesting to play if I want to play that bat-**-insanely good good guy. I can pull of the bat-**-insanely good good guy but I don't do it often. Try and relax. You are putting waaay too much time and interest into a side note, this thread is about not wanting wings.
metalmayhem80110 12-07-07, 04:47 AM	I'm going to have to say relax. I was just commenting that I went back and noticed that it had 7 paladin HD. I also noted that it looks really interesting to play if I want to play that bat-**-insanely good good guy. I can pull of the bat-**-insanely good good guy but I don't do it often. Try and relax. You are putting waaay too much time and interest into a side note, this thread is about not wanting wings. Lol, I'm not trying to be rude or anything... But isn't the whole idea of playing a celestial character playing the more than good character? So saint is kinda the same thing?
Tovec 12-10-07, 12:16 AM	Lol, I'm not trying to be rude or anything... But isn't the whole idea of playing a celestial character playing the more than good character? So saint is kinda the same thing? It should be, yes. I didn't realize that saints make angels look like baby-killers and that angels make celestials look like necromancers and that celestials make paladins look like slave mongers. But apparently they do.
metalmayhem80110 12-14-07, 04:36 AM	It should be, yes. I didn't realize that saints make angels look like baby-killers and that angels make celestials look like necromancers and that celestials make paladins look like slave mongers. But apparently they do. Wow, you should get a thousand cookies for that. I am truely humbled now :P, that was amazingingly awesome :D
Lincoln Hills 12-14-07, 05:55 PM	You didn't? There's a T-shirt stand on the slopes of Mt. Celestia where they can provide appropriate garb for the convenience of those who don't have detect good at will. Just choose the one that suits you! JUST WROTE 'LG' ON MY CHARACTER SHEET WROTE OUT 'LAWFUL GOOD' ON MY CHARACTER SHEET ACTUALLY TRIES USUALLY SUCCEEDS BATTING A THOUSAND WAY BETTER THAN YOU MERE MORTAL PEONS HAVE NEVER HAD AN EVIL THOUGHT DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION 'HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN EVIL THOUGHT?' GOODEST MOST GOODEST and, of course, WAY BETTER THAN MOST GOODEST +5.
Tovec 12-15-07, 03:39 PM	Wow, you should get a thousand cookies for that. I am truely humbled now :P, that was amazingingly awesome :D Yay, I win at cookies. My life is complete. [/sarcasm] I really get on a roll when it comes to sarcasm sometimes. So much so that people often don't know when I'm not being sarcastic, that's why I put the '[sarcasm]' tags. So, ThePyrozoan, what ever happened with your game? Did you DM allow you to have tongues instead of wings?
Saiato 12-15-07, 04:12 PM	This is yet another thing that would separate a good DM from a bad one. The rules technically say that you get wings with no chance to swap out abilities. A Good DM may allow Tongues instead of Wings. They still may say no but they will think about it first. A Bad DM would just say no without thinking about it because the rules only say Wings. Actually, in the MM it says, "HALF-CELESTIAL No matter the form, half-celestials are always comely and delightful to the senses, having golden skin, sparkling eyes, angelic wings, or some other sign of their higher nature. " so technically if the PC was the decedent of an Eladrin he could have tongues.
Tovec 12-15-07, 09:20 PM	Actually, in the MM it says, "HALF-CELESTIAL No matter the form, half-celestials are always comely and delightful to the senses, having golden skin, sparkling eyes, angelic wings, or some other sign of their higher nature. " so technically if the PC was the decedent of an Eladrin he could have wings. Again, that's taken at book value. Many DM's, especially good ones, will allow their players some leeway with things of this type. A player may not want wings for a variety of reasons. A DM may not want to give them tongues for another variety of reasons. As I stated a while ago, the book says you get wings. Even if you don't want wings the best you can do is cut them off, according to the book. As a DM, I would allow Tongues instead of Wings unless tongues gives you too much of an unfair advantage over other party members. Advantages where I wouldn't allow it would be a language heavy game where access to tongues is restricted. In reverse if the game was heavy into flying and the template offered tongues I might say no in that situation too. In general the tongues and wings are about evenly matched and I don't see any reason, given the circumstances, that they shouldn't be trade-able. No matter what, the DM had to approve the exchange.
UltimateReality 12-16-07, 08:57 PM	Saints are an amazingly broken template. Most DMs with an ounce of sense will probably say no to it immediately. They are incredibly difficult to roleplay -- one evil act and all your exalted feats are GONE. Forever. Irrevocably. You lose any and all benefits from them, cannot atone for it in any way whatsoever, etc. etc. BoED is very clear on this. It's a really awesome concept for a book, but very very difficult to balance mechanically with the rest of the game -- and very difficult to find players who want to step up to the challenge of rping it. Anyway, re: wings vs. tongues, I'd let you do it. WotC generally seems to have valued wings at about a +3 LA throughout 3.5 edition. I'd probably lower your LA on the template or work out some extra goodies that are appropriate for your character. Probably the former, as high LAs really suck, especially if you're playing a caster. (Can't get those level 9 spells til you're at least level 21 as a full caster now, and you're playing a rogue/sor which will make it even worse...) Then again, I also allow level adjustment buy-off from UA, so we could work with the latter scenario too.
metalmayhem80110 12-17-07, 04:39 AM	Saints are an amazingly broken template. Most DMs with an ounce of sense will probably say no to it immediately. They are incredibly difficult to roleplay -- one evil act and all your exalted feats are GONE. Forever. Irrevocably. You lose any and all benefits from them, cannot atone for it in any way whatsoever, etc. etc. BoED is very clear on this. It's a really awesome concept for a book, but very very difficult to balance mechanically with the rest of the game -- and very difficult to find players who want to step up to the challenge of rping it. You just listed why the template isn't broken like many nooby DM's believe it is... Yes, it is one of the stronger templates, but it also comes with the biggest drawback of any template... How many templates out there give you the oppurtunity to lose all of the abilities/feats you spent, and get to keep the LA!!! Sounds broken to me :P
UltimateReality 12-17-07, 04:32 PM	You just listed why the template isn't broken like many nooby DM's believe it is... Yes, it is one of the stronger templates, but it also comes with the biggest drawback of any template... How many templates out there give you the oppurtunity to lose all of the abilities/feats you spent, and get to keep the LA!!! Sounds broken to me :P I don't believe you can (or should try) to balance mechanics with roleplaying restrictions. Therefore, I think it's still broken, despite the RP restrictions on it.
Voran 12-17-07, 05:18 PM	The wings you can 'grow' from Dragon Shaman (or some other dragon themed classes) kinda bugs me to. I figured just make it a supernatural effect, which summons ethereal wings or whatever, but if you get dispelled or anti-magic zoned, they go poof. So largely you get the same benefit as the normal fly spell, just usable at will, and with a unique visual effect. In the OP, substituting wings with lesser abilities should be fine, but you might wanna see if you can get 'summoned wings' or something.
metalmayhem80110 12-18-07, 03:41 AM	I don't believe you can (or should try) to balance mechanics with roleplaying restrictions. Therefore, I think it's still broken, despite the RP restrictions on it. Why don't you think things should be balanced with RP restrictions? Unless you're a hack/slash game ONLY, this works out well. Besides... Go over to the character optimization boards if you want to see powerful builds. Maybe 1% of them (If that) use the sainted template... This is because the LA is NEVER worth what you can get in class levels. This template is no more broken than somebody going straight wizard...