Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DemonDavyJones 10-01-06, 08:57 AM	Even though I'm a DM I thought I'd post this on the players boards, because, even if it works, most DMs would probably disallow it anyway, because it is really powerful. The other day we were having an after-session humor discussion when one of the players made this suggestion: "Suppose I play as a Xill :P . Suppose I have a ring of invisibility and I'm an 8th level wizard :plotting: . Further suppose I have a wand/scroll/whatever of Dimension Door and a scroll of Wail of The Banshee :blink: . What if, during the middle of a meat grinder style battle with tons of minions, I activate the ring, set a ready action to use the Dimension Door when the person before me has his turn, and then, after I appear (away from the party, behind the minions) I use the Wail :twitch: . Since I'm not being threatened because none of them know I'm there, I can take ten on the caster level check and make the DC 18. Bam. Minions dead :bravo: ." I don't think it would be all that bad to let him do this next campaign, but then I also think i'm missing some rule or three that is/are preventing this. I know that him not being threatened by the minions might be arguable, but even if he is, he'll still make the check 50% of the time (and he's a high roller). So... what did we miss? I'm sure there's something. Not that I dislike the player for coming up with this, I just need to make sure it's legal, and for the life of me, I can't find a rule against it :doh: .
Greyman 10-01-06, 09:32 AM	Dimention door states: "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." So using the item of dimention door then acting in the same round will not work. (Besides which, using a scroll or wand is a standard action in any case.) However, once the spell has place your Xill in the battlezone, it will still be invisible. Using the item might clue the opponents in to the Xill existance (both wands and verbal component spell scrolls need clearly spoken words to activate), but that won't identify her location after she's 'ported. Thus when she attacks in the second round, your Xill will still catch them flatfooted with respect to her (so no dodge bonuses and, more importantly, no threats nor attacks of opportunity). Oh, since she provokes no attacks of opportunity, she can cast the wail, then move the heck out of reach of any survivors.
DemonDavyJones 10-01-06, 09:37 AM	Knew there had to be something. Ah well, it's not that big of a setback. Even though I can see how this could mess up carefully planned badguy escapes, who really cares, if the players have fun and if they only get to do it six times at the most before the scroll runs out? I'm sure they'll just find a way around that problem. Thanks!
Radijs 10-01-06, 09:38 AM	Lets break it down. First round: Wizard activates the ring using a standard action. He still has a move action to do with as he pleases. He cannot ready anything because readying is a standard action. Second round: The wizard can ready an action to use Dimension door to go where he wants or he can use the scroll right now to go where he wants. Either way after using dimension door his turn is over because dimension door says that you cannot do anything after casting the spell. Round three: Spellcaster attempts to use a scroll of wail of the banshee. Now even though he isn't being threatened there are 2 reasons why he cannot take 10. Reason 1 is because there is a possible penalty for failure. Failing the check requires a wisdom check in order to avoid a mishap. Reason 2 is because he is still in a stressful situation. Its still combat. Assuming he succeeds on his caster level check he casts wail of the banshee forcing a DC 23 fort save on 17 creatures within 40 feet of himself. Everyone that passes this save will turn the now visible wizard into minced meat. Its not overkill or illegal apart from the taking 10 on the caster level check. You can remind yourself that he is blowing 3,825 gold pieces on the scroll of wail of the banshee and another 700 gold pieces on the scroll of dimension door. A Xill has a +4 level adjustment and you need at least 7 caster levels to succeed on a caster level check to cast wail from a scroll when taking 10 so the PC is at least ECL11. More if the Xill also adds outsider HD in addition to its level adjustment. At level 11 PC's are expected to have 66,000 Gp in equipment. That makes this trick still quite expensive to use every day. You should also note that scrolls can only be used once before becoming nonmagical. So thats over 4000 gold pieces for a single combat. And also mind you that the wizard doesn't get to exclude his friends from the effect of the wail spell. 40 can be quite a distance. 8 squares in all directions.
Max Octavious Xavier 10-01-06, 10:54 AM	Now even though he isn't being threatened there are 2 reasons why he cannot take 10. Reason 1 is because there is a possible penalty for failure. Failing the check requires a wisdom check in order to avoid a mishap. Reason 2 is because he is still in a stressful situation. Its still combat.Good point about the Xill La. Sorry, you are confusing "take 10" and "take 20", take 10 has nothing to do with "possible penalty for failure". However, your 2nd point is valid. Even if the wizard is invisible he is still in combat, with combatants running here and there, spells going off and missle weapons going every which way. In fact, the whole question is invalid. Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checksI think this is a case of a player trying to get too clever. Wail of the Banshee has a range of 65' minimum, no need to use all those spells to get in an optimal position. There is no reason to get all overly-clever/complicated.