Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edwind 04-29-06, 01:16 AM	Alright so, I'm playing a Paladin, and- NO DON'T LEAVE YET HEAR ME OUT! So I'm playing a Paladin and we just started our new game. We're all level 6 (or the equivallent of) and we just finished our first game. I was playing my Paladin how me and the DM decussed I should. I told him that I will try to attempt to solve some problems without violence and he said sure. So the first battle we fight hobgoblins, no big deal I didn't try to talk it out then cause I forgot so we move on. Next day we come back to the same place and we see two large lizardlike creatures eating the dead bodies. Since I AM a lizardfolk I hailed them. My party gets mad. They turned around and attacked we won. Next battle, we come across one of those lizard things fighting hobgoblins that just robbed another wagon of supplies (a quest we were on) one of the hobgoblins is smacked by the lizard and goes flying. I run over to see if he's ok. He's unarmed and prone, I tell him to surrender and he complys, my party gets mad cause I wasted a turn helping the guy up and checking for wounds. Next I yell to the other hobgoblins to throw down their weapons and this time I tell them to drop their weapons and surrender, once again my party gets mad. The leader tells the other so kill us and they attack, the one I helped up runs away. I tell them to drop their weapons and surrender every round, giving up an attack to go Full Defencive for a round or two. My party still gets mad. Finally theres the leader left and the party barb had just taken a good chunk of HP from him. I tell him to drop his weapons and he will not be harmed. He complies and backs up but doing so gives the barb an AoO. I tell him not to take it but he takes it anyways and pelts him down to 10HP, next before my turn its the archers. I tell him not to attack him but he gets a good spot and shoots him with three arrows, bringing him down to -6HP, luckily I had Lay on Hands and I heal him for ten. My party gets mad once again cause now they wont get the XP for the kill, but the DM still gave the XP for it. Finally when we find out whos actually behind the robbings we confront him and I tell him he must pay for his crimes and to surrender peacfully, and of course again my party gets mad and the barb charges him. We win the battle but the barb his down to 4HP and he's raging so if when he stops he'll go into the neg and I'm out of lay on hands and we have potions but we have no idea what they do, and to top it all off we see undead coming off from the distance. I got mad when they attacked him after I got him to surrender. I just want to know how I could possibly make them not get mad whenever I try and find a peaceful solution to solving a prebattle situation. Can anyone help me?
Throg 04-29-06, 01:47 AM	Well, congrats for not playing a "Detect and Smite" Pally. They get old fast. Hmm, did you talk with the other players before you started? I mean about you playing a pally who's morals tell him that not all confritations need to end in cold murder. Most players want to just slice through fights, kill the monsters, move on. Before you start the next game, explain why you're doing this. Explain how it's still first and foremost a roleplaying game and not a game console for them to just smash the A button. Ok.. don't explain it like that, but tell them that this is how your charector is. Judge their reactions, get feed back about how they actually feel about you playing outside of a Fight and Forget battle style. If that doesn't work, explain how taking in leaders to a near-by city center could lead to rewards for the return of a criminal of the land! Play on their greed, who wouldn't go after the prospect of more money? You get good points, your party gets cash, it all works out. I hope I didn't confuse you too bad.. My brain get's jumbled at 1am in the morning. Continue the way you're playing, kill only in defence of yourself or another person, capture when possible, and take charge if you can. Just really, talk this over before the next session and tell them how you feel, how they aren't giving your charector's wishes the time of day.
Wolfpack 04-29-06, 01:54 AM	You're definately in a tough situation as your party is the kill everything kind of group, but I noticed that you said they thought they wouldn't get XP unless they killed the enemy, that is a common misconception and I would like to point out that in reality you only have to overcome the encounter to gain XP from it, that can include making the the opponent surrender or even run, also if the enemy isn't a big obstacle such as if a minotaur is guarding an object you need to recover and you sneak by it steal the treasure and get away without fighting then you would get XP for the minotaur, this is all detailed in the section on XP rewards in the DM's guide(page 36). From what you've stated this might actually solve a majority of your problems with the group. The other thing I can see them hating is that you are someone who likes to roleplay while they are just there for a hack and slash adventure, you actually make combat interesting as it becomes something other than run-in-and-kill-everything battles and more an actual game that can have consequence to actions, as well as fun roleplaying opertunities are created when the enemy surrenders(which I won't get into as there are so many ways for a DM to use this situatiion). Another thing is you should talk to your DM and have him give bonus XP for some important incounters that you solve peacefully, it might help your group see there is more to the game than combat. I guess my advise is to point out the XP bit I mentioned and when you try to solve a hostile situation with peaceful means it can sometimes mean a more fun game.
Suzaku455 04-29-06, 02:16 AM	If you're a Lizard folk and towns generaly accept you as a Citizen turn your party in >.>
Dragonsblood 04-29-06, 03:35 AM	If your group is only getting mad because they'll get less XP, talk to your DM about how he awards XP. XP is supposed to be awarded for overcoming a challenge, not for kill count. If an enemy surrenders, the group should receive no less XP than if they killed the enemy. Unless your group has RP reasons for it, they should be happy with this approach - if the enemy didn't surrender, they'd drain more party resources (HP, healing, spells, etc) and combat would take longer than necessary. Not only that, but when enemies surrender you have targets for interrogation and a great potential source of information.
Edwind 04-29-06, 04:34 AM	I talked to my DM and I asked him if he could help convince the other members to listen more to my character when it comes to things like this. Frankly...He said "Do it yourself". And when I asked him if he will be rewarding XP for solving a problem different he said "on certain occations". So pretty much I'm screwed unless I can talk them into going along with what my character would like out of his party. My other option would be to just give up, have my paladin walk off on some quest for good (although my DM says I can't because I don't have any ranks into survival, but I DO have a map) and roll up a new character... It really blows mostly because I guess I made this character for RP purposes, but it's mostly a Hackin Slash type of game. We barely do any RP cause I guess the others airn't into it and the DM is to lazy to RP whenever I try to at least have fun with it due to his A.D.D and I always hav to tell him to get back to the game whenever my dog walks by and he just has to watch it walk by...Help?
geekling 04-29-06, 07:14 AM	Next I yell to the other hobgoblins to throw down their weapons and this time I tell them to drop their weapons and surrender, once again my party gets mad. The leader tells the other so kill us and they attack, the one I helped up runs away. I tell them to drop their weapons and surrender every round, giving up an attack to go Full Defencive for a round or two. My party still gets mad. Well, let's put it this way. If you were in my party, your Paladin would suffer the missgivings from my little gnome after something like that. That's going above and beyond giving them a chance to surrender and settle the thing without violence, and she would be most upset. Because he's putting her life at risk. It's tongue lashings at noon for weeks to come until he promises not to do that again (and your character would find his boots mysteriously having turned pink with yellow polkadots each morning.) :P You're free to roleplay your character as you see fit, but so am I. And the gnome I play in our game, does not take kindly to having the muscle standing idly by watching her being attacked. The question 'what's more important to you, my life? Or that of those hobgoblins who trying to kill me? 'Cause to me it looks like you'd be on the hobgoblins side right now. I thought we were friends, looks like I was wrong.' would crop up. Saying that, we've got one of you-ish in the party, and that's fine. While some might disagree with his being a bloody-goody-two-shoes and does offer mostly everyone a chance to surrender or feel feel his wrath. It is accepted, even sometimes admired, by the party. One of his little quirks - nothing to worry about, and we're all used to it and we all have them. It actually gets us out of having to fight sometimes, so it's well worth holding back a moment and wait for their response. If they choose not to take that offer up, and attack. Well then it's feel the wrath time. Once it's clear that they're soundly whipped, and it's really mopping up time, a few mooks left standing - their leader down, that sort of thing. He may repeat his offer (and well they have a tendency to accept once they know they've been beaten.) So I guess what I'm saying is, keep playing you character - perhaps tone it down a bit. Let them get used to it and realise that your character is not siding with the enemy here. If the party gets attacked - he'll not stand idly by and let their characters be slaughtered because your character want to give someone else a fair chance to surrender. And that just like you, they are free to play their characters - and their characters might not accept surrender. You can't out of character force them to let your character speak for the party when he offers them a chance to surrender. My gnome and that you-ish character have been together a long time (they're the only two surviving characters in a campain that's been running for oh, about nine months,) and it's been far from friction free to get them to that point. That's part of the joy with roleplaying. These things take time to develop, it doesn't happen overnight.
Grunj 04-29-06, 10:56 AM	Your moral code is excellent but your tactics are lacking. You shouldn't offer an enemy a chance to surrender from any position other than overwhelming force. An evil creature will likely interpret a demand from you to surrender as cowardice or a lack of resolve on your part unless they are clearly losing badly. If the party is not capable of handling prisoners you can't take the monster's surrender anyway. A parole only works on enemies with a strong sense of honor. Save the offers of mercy for when they are practical. Otherwise you compromise your effectiveness and that of the party's.
kelvinaw273 04-29-06, 12:44 PM	Well, your party could be summed up with: "WE WANNA KILL! KILL! KILL!" What is their problem, and why is your character still working with them. It is now clear that while you will offer a surrender, your party is not prepared to honour it. Point out to them that this has now landed them in big trouble - if they had honoured a surrender, they wouldn't now be facing a horde of undead while severly weakened. Get your DM to explain how experience is handed out, so they are under no illusions about whether they get XP or not. If he does not allow XP from a surrendered foe, he's not much of a DM IMHO. In fact, your paladin would be justified in fighting your own party at this stage. Their alignment should be completely chaotic (they are not honouring a surrender) virging on evil (they are a bunch of homicidal maniacs) making it completely at odds with your character. Why hasn't your DM done something about this? Doesn't he care?
Edwind 04-29-06, 04:48 PM	I've talked to my DM, and it seems he doesn't care. When I told him if they don't at least try to accept my character I'm just going to have him leave and I'm going to roll up a new one. My DM said that I was stuck with my choice and he wouldn't let me have a new char. I'm talking to one of the other party memebers (the more stubern one) and he's not budging....I told him about how we'd still get XP without killing things, he said he'd get XP if we killed them anyways. I tried to tell him that if we had just talked for a few rounds at the last battle he wouldn't be where he is now. I really think its not going to be working and I should just have my paladin run into the undead and get killed... On the other notes about Letting my other party members play their own characters out. I do, I let them do whatever they want. I'd have just as much fun hackin and slashin away. I'm always in front due to my AC and since the barb has 10ft reach he just swings from behind me. they were all perfectly save in that battle and it will probably turn out that way for most. The only reason why the barbs in the possition he's in now is cause instead of waiting back he runs in along too far for us to reach him in more then one round, he has two minutaurs charge him along with the bugbear. He's lucky he survived doing what he was doing. I really think I should just have my paladin walk off or something. My parties not going to bend and at least cooperate with me so apart from my Lay on Hands, my paladins not going to be heard much in the party.
stembolt 04-29-06, 05:08 PM	As written your DM sucks (and your fellow players don’t win any prizes either). He does not know how to run the game. If you are having fun I recommend just going with it and having fun. If you are not having fun, you probably just want to leave the group. An extreme suggestion but it may be your only option.
Edwind 04-29-06, 05:12 PM	It's hard to leave the group when they all come to your house to play every friday, and I wouldn't be that much of an ass to stop D&D alltogether.
Kirtanus_Albacron 04-29-06, 05:25 PM	If they are that thick-headed not to listen you, and your DM is a lazy *******, I would say not play with them and not let them play D&D at your place, even if they are your friends, and find another group, because they are clearly not accomadating to what you want and not wanting to even make a compromise. Because it seems that it wouldn't work out even if you made another character because you want to roleplay a bit.
kelvinaw273 04-29-06, 05:34 PM	You are one of the first people who has spoken on these boards who can actually play a paladin who isn't Smite-O-Matic, what are you doing with a bunch of guys whose style does not in any way match yours - and the DM can't even be bothered to let you change characters to fit in? [Actually, I wanted to say "with a bunch of loosers", but then I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt]. Let the Dm know that if he and the other players don't want to change, and don't want you to change, they can carry on without you. There are groups who wa=ould crawl over broken glass for a player like you.
Ataur 04-29-06, 05:35 PM	The only way that I think anyone could get frustrated with you about running out of your lay on hands abilities for the day was if you used some of them up on monsters. Is this the case? Or was it just a long battle and you used them on party members? If it's the former, a word to the wise, while using the occasional CLW potion to keep a prisoner alive may be merited (did I say occasional?), let's reserve your supernatural abilitites for strictly companion use(slap on wrist). your'e a paladin, not a bhuddist. That said, it looks like you are in a pretty good position here. Since your DM doesn't seem to want you to roll a new char, would he let anyone else roll a new one either? And may I say that with the meat-sheild now on the ropes, they seem to be doing a splendid job of killing themselves off! Until that happens, you should always be a the front of the party when offering your ultimatums, ready to take the brunt of the baddy's "counter-offer" when it does come (and it will). That said, never block the party's path to the bad guy (I assume thats how you could go all full-defense for 2 whole rounds). Come to think of it this could make for some good in-game comedy: "I don't suppose you guys are going to surrender are you?" (stepping aside revealing your raging companion) "He really doesn't want you to surrender." "I command you! SURRE.......oh, your'e dead." "I'm not even going to say it...."(shakes head as flying barbarians and fireballs race past) "Meet your new bunkmates!" looks back, "Guys! Put the weapons away! ugh, dammit." "Me and that angry guy over there have this bet going....." "Hello, my name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." Just off the top of my head. Happy Gaming!
Gurv 04-29-06, 05:37 PM	I only skimmed the rest of the posts, so maybe someone else has already said what I have to say. Such is life. I got mad when they attacked him after I got him to surrender. I just want to know how I could possibly make them not get mad whenever I try and find a peaceful solution to solving a prebattle situation. Can anyone help me? My only question is: is it the other players getting mad? Or is it their characters? If the players are getting mad because you are trying to find a noncombat solution, then you are obviously playing the wrong kind of character for this group. The others enjoy combats, and they want to kick bad guy butt. If they want to roleplay through encounters, then they would. Obviously, they don't want to do that. Every time you do it, you steal away their fun. Now, if the other players understand what you are trying to do, and don't mind, then things are fine. Their characters might not appreciate your methods and may argue with your character about them. Your character should explain why he does what he does and why they should consider using the same tactics. Roleplay the character explaining why.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-06, 05:40 PM	The leader tells the other so kill us and they attack, the one I helped up runs away. I tell them to drop their weapons and surrender every round, giving up an attack to go Full Defencive for a round or two. Ok you have to realize something here. You have an obligation to your party members too. After initially telling the enemy to lay down their weapons and they answer with, "Kill them all." Then obviously you failed on your diplomacy check and you need to draw your sword. Especially since the enemy was beating on your teamates and you still stood there attempting to get them to stop. :rolleyes: If I was in your group I too would be mad at the implementation of your code. The code is fine, how you're going about it isn't IMO.
Lovesmasher 04-29-06, 05:41 PM	When taking prisoners: 1. Remember that you shouldn't kill unless in defense of yourself or others. 1a. Hobbling a potential prisoner is not killing them, it's just making sure they don't run. A dagger in the ankle works better than a rope or shackles. 1b. If someone is a murderer, killing them defends their potential future victims. 2. If, after you demand surrender, your quarry draws their weapons, assume they don't mean to surrender. 3. If someone surrenders and then runs, assume they're always going to do that and make sure they can't run any more. (see 1a) 4. Paladins are good. Don't mistake good with fair or nice.
RadicalTaoist 04-29-06, 06:03 PM	My only question is: is it the other players getting mad? Or is it their characters? If the players are getting mad because you are trying to find a noncombat solution, then you are obviously playing the wrong kind of character for this group. The others enjoy combats, and they want to kick bad guy butt. If they want to roleplay through encounters, then they would. Obviously, they don't want to do that. Every time you do it, you steal away their fun. Now, if the other players understand what you are trying to do, and don't mind, then things are fine. Their characters might not appreciate your methods and may argue with your character about them. Your character should explain why he does what he does and why they should consider using the same tactics. Roleplay the character explaining why. This is the important distinction. However, given My DM said that I was stuck with my choice and he wouldn't let me have a new char.[...]I'm talking to one of the other party memebers (the more stubern one) and he's not budging... I suspect it's an OOC issue. Now, there are some tactical changes you can make. Don't fight on full defensive. Get a Merciful weapon if you must, but you can deal real damage and still be good. Give ONE (1) Diplomacy check demanding surrender at the beginning of the encounter, and don't make another until you are in a position where the enemies would be suicidal to refuse. When healing a dying enemy, do NOT heal them back into consciousness. Simply heal them for 1 hp. This will stabilize them, and facilitate their capture and handover to the authorities. The group's concern may be that you're not doing enough damage and providing enough of a threat, which is putting their characters in jepoardy. This can be rectified with the strategies outlined above. However, you do not need to abandon your character's motivation - capture if you don't need to kill - in order to implement these strategies. If the DM removes XP rewards for incapacitating foes or talking them out of fights, he is creating a houserule designed to cripple your character and punish your teammates for working with you. If that is the case, or if the other players still get angry after you change your tactics as I suggest above, then this group has no interest in ensuring your enjoyment of the game, and you should cast Expeditious Retreat. Invite them over to play Halo or something else besides D&D. There's no point to playing with people who aren't willing to let you have fun too.
Edwind 04-29-06, 06:42 PM	Thanks kelvinaw273 for the confidence boost, but I feel like I'm not playing one right if I can't be able to do what I want and not make my party members mad. Ataur in the fight with the hobgoblins I at the end of the battle I used 10 to heal the hobgoblin but my party didn't take enough damage for me to use LoH cause the only one who was hit was the barb, but he was fine. When I said every round I'd tell them to surrender, I didn't just stand there. I'd attack and before my turn was done I'd tell them to drop their weapons and wait for their turn, and when I'd go Full Defencive it was mostly due to the fact I was surrounded. Once the barb dropped one and I crit one in the face there was the leader left, and thats when I finally told him to drop his weapons cause he wouldn't be harmed he complies, the barb attacks.. It is OOC, but they portray their characters the same way they feel, which really contridicts our background stories. The archer is a Poisen Dusk Lizardfolk and we've known eachother for a long while. After the barb took his AoO and it was his turn I told him not to fire but he just took the shots. The Half-Ogre I really don't know much about, his background story he gave out the DM denied cause He said his parents worshipped Thor. The DM can really be a big idiot sometimes. Like I said while I was out on a hunting trip I found a ruined temple of Buhumat and thats how I became a paladin and he blew up and got all mad about me putting things in his campaign. I really don't know what to do. I talked to the stuborn player, and when I mean stuborn I mean it. At the start of the game he said "No retreating" and right now theres undead coming he's at 4HP and in rage and the rage is going to stop in like 4 rounds. As we were argueing I told him goodluck fighting the undead and all that when he's in this situation and his solution was to block himself in the nearby house and throw stuff at them through the windows cause he just WOULDN'T retreat. When I told him he was being stupid he got angry and ask why he'd be fighting them alone? I said he wouldn't be cause its my job to help the party and stick together, but I then told him that not retreating from something like this was just being stupid and then he said I was a paladin and I wasn't allowed to run away, so then I had to explain that a paladin can run away cause its obvious he's unable to win this fight. He finally started to agree with me about retreating with a "We'll see" and when I finally asked him if he's going to lay off the chopping if I ask him he also answered with a "We'll see". Yes, they may be concerend with me not pulling my own weight combatwise, but I do stand in the way of the others so they wont get hit. Out of all the battles we've been in I've been infront of the AC lacking barb so he's not to get crushed and I end up getting swarmed but my 27AC (31 when Full Defenvice) keeps me pretty untouched. I do attack but I use a Heavy Pick which I realize isn't that great, but its my Deities favored weapon so I stick with it. I deal as much damage as the barb or ranger, mostly more then the barb because he barely ever hits due to bad rolls. Maybe I have been a little bit of a passivist when it comes to the battles but I'm willing to be a little more loose when it comes to fighting, maybe ask for a surrender at the start and near the end maybe?
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-06, 07:22 PM	At the start of the game he said "No retreating" and right now theres undead coming... Since your DM isn't serious about D&D and the rules, just play Hack-n-Slash. That DM from this and other things you said is just there to play a "video game." My advice is either stay with the group and play like they do or find a group that has a different playstyle. but my 27AC (31 when Full Defenvice) keeps me pretty untouched. What level are you and how is your AC so high? Just asking. :)
Priest_of_Shaundakul 04-29-06, 07:29 PM	Yeah, if one takes the time to fully memroize at least the other attack/defense options out of the PHB combat sections, they'll find themselves better prepared in battle! :D
bob_the_great 04-29-06, 07:32 PM	if you're in the middle of a potentially deadly fight, don't go defensive asking them to surrender. that's putting your allies at risk. don't speak for the rest of the party. while you might be willing to promise to not kill them, your allies might think differently. remind your dm that slaughtering someone who is not a threat is an evil act. if someone surrenders to you, then your allies kill them, that's evil. too much of this and it'll be your duty to bring them to justice. honestly, i like your style. i always prefer non-deadly solutions to combat, and it seems to me that someone has to be really jaded to be good while thoughtlessly killing. i'd say stick to your pally's beliefs and see how things shape up. unless people in your group are looking for conflict you should be able to work it out. about the lay on hands thing, well had they not felt the need to kill your captive you would've had it to help the barb out. it's a tricky situation, though if you offered him surrender you were honor bound to protect him. also, it shouldn't be the only source of healing once the group gets any wealth. if the barb spends his gold on a new weapon rather than a healing potion or two (in a party w/o a divine caster), then he's just stupid. and as for xp, any resolution deserves xp, whether you kill an enemy, bribe him, or come to an agreement. my party avoids combat whenever possible because you can die in combat and any spells you use are gone for the day.
turalisj 04-29-06, 07:35 PM	Use protection from chaos when going through a cramped dungeon.... Or when going through a thing bridge....
Prator_the_Legendary 04-29-06, 07:36 PM	I have no advice for you, except for this: Feel blessed that you can get away with what you've done already. I've played a few paladins over the years, and in my case I get sick of fighting and try to avoid it a lot too. Only in my case, the problem is that my DM won't let me solve anything peacefully. Every monster attacks and fights to the death on principle. If I try to reason with them, they ignore me, cuss at me, or mumble something incomprehensible and keep fighting. I'm a mass murderer by necessity.
Tristan 04-29-06, 08:08 PM	try taking that feat that allows you to deal subdual damage at not penalty and see if your party will allow enemies you defeat to be your responsibility. You knock them out, tie them up, take their weapons and magic, and be on your way. hopefully this will be easier for your stupid friends (yea, i said it) to accept Super Stuborn=Stupid P.S. Maybe you should find a passive way to tell this to your DM "Well, when I told you how I was going to play my paladin, I thought that meant you approved. Why arent you supporting me? Can't We at least reach a compromise?"
Edwind 04-29-06, 08:20 PM	Lord Ian Stark My AC is so high cause I'm playing a lizardfolk. I spend 5k XP to buy off my LA so I actually count as 5th level. I get +5 NA I took the Improved NA my dex gives +1 I wear fullplate +8 and a heavy steal shield +2 5+1+1+8+2+10=27 Tristan I actually plan on taking that feat next level. I will be going into the Sword of the Rightious PrC so in the next 3 levels I'll be getting 5 feats. Aftet that I'll be moving into Vessal Of Buhumat. I don't think being passive towards my DM will work all too well. As I've said before he's a bit of an jerk, so bringing something like that up would only complicate the matters. But if I must I'll do it. bob_the_great It wasn't a deadly fight. I was up front attracting attention while the archer picked them off from a tree. The barb would be swinging away from behind. Hardly dangerous for our party, but it will probably be way more difficult due to the fact that my DM asked me for Undead buffer feats from Libris Mortis some days ago and now we're fighting undead. I wont metagame but I know I'm already over my head and my first job is to get my party to safety. Also, I don't speak for the rest of the party, although I know what your talking about. They may want to just kill them instead of having them surrender but that is an evil act and if it continues to happen I will demand an aligment change, or I'll take matters into my own hands.
Lovesmasher 04-29-06, 08:39 PM	Oooh, an idea just popped into my brain! Use your diplomacy skill to FORCE your party to do what you want.