Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CJDragon 05-01-05, 08:15 AM	Whenever I am a player in a game it always boils down to the same routine. I suggest ideas on where to go, so everyone goes there w/o question. I suggest ideas on what to do for combat tactics, everyone does them. Admittedly usually when i suggest stuff it is a good idea, and even makes the DM laugh at how cunning the idea is, but thats besides the point. Even though everyone says they don't mind, I don't like the fact its always me coming up with the ideas. So instead I've become a co-DM, but i find DMing really boring, and the other one constantly messes the rules up, and ignores me when I try to correct him. So now I'm stuck with nothing to do every session, and I am very bored. Also without my guidence, the other characters don't know what to do, and they keep dying, and so aren't enjoying the game So I am going to put the idea to the other Dm that i join the group as an NPC character. That means i can help the players with tactics, but am only a follower, and so the decision is truly theirs. However, the point of this post is to get help. To begin with I thought that if I came up with good ideas, it would get the others players thinking in the same way, but instead they just turned off and did as i told them. Have any of you had a problem where the players are unable to think independantly? If so how did you overcome it? And does anyone have advice for making the players think tactically? Thanks for any help anyone can give me
ToxicWiz 05-01-05, 09:14 AM	I sometimes feel this, and i know how irritating it can be, and my suggestion is to put in your 'I don't mind', but they could keep dieing if they don't decide on their own. Another I can recommend in step back, and if they are not getting it, give them a nudge in the right direction. just a small 'they could escape through that door' could be enough to make them block it, or 'picking locks is quieter' to coax the parties rogue into action. I haven't tried this myself, but it worked in getting my DM to do some tactics, so it may work the other way round. I started tumbling past most enemies, so when the party had guards arrive to help, the culprits tumbled past them to escape. so, If you can get your DM to start making the enemies flank, the players may soon learn that flanking can help them, and begin doing it themselves. the final suggestion will require your DMs help, is very risky, but it may work. if possible get the party into a small tactical situation, like surrounded by a circle of enemies, and the players may instinctively form a circle in the center. this, like my first suggestion could get the party killed if there are not careful.
Ut-Napishtim 05-01-05, 09:29 AM	Dude, the fact of the matter is that most players don't care. That's why they always play CN. They want to show up, kill some :censored: and take it's treasure, upgrade their character a bit, and then go home. That's why when you suggest something that sounds smart they go along with it. They're not interested in throwing out some other ideas or debating it in commitee. Since you're not throwing out those ideas anymore they're just walking up to the monsters or whatever and not using any tactics at all. So here's what you can do: go back to playing and get used to the notion that nobody's going to come up with anything on their own, or DM your own game - it's more fun than being a co-DM. Of course as a DM you're going to have to deal with the same problem of unimaginitive players, but at least then you can have the mosters use tactics and throw out some NPC dialogue that might get them going in the right direction. Either way it's not a problem that's going to go away any time soon so you might as well deal with it and have some fun.
Torack 05-01-05, 10:25 AM	I'm in a similar situation as you are, though as a DM in my case. I took the players aside and told them that for the moment I was going to make sure all their plans would succeed and that they wouldn't die, unless it was an extremely bad idea. It worked. The four and soon five of them turned into planning, disarming, sundering, tripping, overrunning, charging blindly characters. It's very enjoyable, since they simply tell me what their character wants to do and I tell them how to go about doing it. 100% chance of success does wonders for morale, even if its for a short time. Penalties will eventually be introduced slowly, but not at the moment. I suggest you talk to your DM and maybe plan a similar idea.
TinManFan 05-01-05, 05:15 PM	ok, I'm gonna go on the assumption that there's SOME hope for these guys. Sit each down, 1 by 1 and ask what all they want in a campaign. What type of interactions, what type of fights (1 on 1, wars, party vs party, Dragon Hunts), what kind of setting. Also go over with them what kind of goals they want for their guy. Then get the group together and discuss the kind of world you're thinking up for them. High Fantasy, Down and Gritty Gladitorial, Low Magic, FR or Ebby. Talk about the areas you like and the areas you don't like. After that, roll up some new characters and get goin. try to implement as many of the ideas y'all've come up with, esp if more than 1 of them suggested it. And for cryin out loud, have some fun.
Angrboda 05-01-05, 06:50 PM	First things first...talk to your party & try to find out what kind of game they want to play. Are they interested in a hack & slash, dungeon-crawl-filled sort of affair? Or is it plot, intrigue, mystery, fame, fortune, and character development that they are after? Is this campaign suited to these players' goals? Are they being challenged in a way that encourages each of them to play to their strengths & character personalities? Or is it a simple fear/reluctance of taking risks that holds them back? If it's the risk-taking, then look to Torak's advice: I'm in a similar situation as you are, though as a DM in my case. I took the players aside and told them that for the moment I was going to make sure all their plans would succeed and that they wouldn't die, unless it was an extremely bad idea. It worked. The four and soon five of them turned into planning, disarming, sundering, tripping, overrunning, charging blindly characters. It's very enjoyable, since they simply tell me what their character wants to do and I tell them how to go about doing it. 100% chance of success does wonders for morale, even if its for a short time. Penalties will eventually be introduced slowly, but not at the moment. I suggest you talk to your DM and maybe plan a similar idea. As sad as it seems to those of us who are more aggressive players, Torak's idea may be just what this party needs to get them thinking. A lot of parties seems to hold back because they are afraid to take a risk...trying to get them used to the fun of taking risks, then reintroducing the consequences & bad stuff could work. But you'll have to play it fairly carefully to avoid bad feelings when the consequences are reintroduced. And if it's not the fear of risk-taking, then this plan will probably not work. If it's the lack of specific challenges or a discrepancy in the kind of game the players want vs. the kind of campaign you are helping to run, then you need to look at the campaign itself & make adjustments accordingly. And then, of course, you have to look at the players themselves...are these people just sheep? I know we hate to think that any gamers could just be dopey & slow, but it happens. If this is the case, you've got a much more difficult problem to address.
GoofsterStud 05-01-05, 06:53 PM	I'm in the opposite bind. We have a player that always has to be the center. Always has the ideas...always has to be the strongest...to the point where he calculates where everybodies experience points should be. Yet he complains that we don't come up with ideas. However if we do he knocks them...or tries to sounds superior. He's become a problem by a few of us. He attacks me first, however 3 others have noticed the same thing now. If you want others to decide...back off...maybe your character doesn't care about the scenario. Maybe your character a wizards (DOES NOT SPECIALIZE IN STRATIGIC MELEE COMBAT). I ask you. Are you role playing your character? Do your ideas fit your character? 1 Do you have any skills that would help give this idea? 2 How good are you at this skill? 3 Is it your strongest attribute? 4 Does it really fit your character? I can tell you that the people who I here complaining about this the most don't. They have to be the center so much that we just give up and let them and do are fight and collect are treasure.
RogerWilco 05-01-05, 07:02 PM	I didn't read the entire thread, but my 2 cents are: In my group there's this one guy who's just a better roleplayer as the rest. We like what he does and try to follow the example.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 05-01-05, 08:10 PM	Here's a suggestion for the original poster: Play a chaotic good elf, devoted to the ideals of free will. Whenever you speak to the party, suggest two contradictory but equally feasible alternatives, and let them choose for themselves. Frodo said something to this effect about elves and their advice in the "Many Meetings" chapter of Fellowship of the Ring, and Races of the Wild suggests that elven language and thought is such that any phrase can be interpreted two different ways. This way you'll still be contributing to the party, but not dominating it.
prozacman 05-01-05, 08:58 PM	i hada problem like this in a recent game. it was partially that one of the players was a noobie and the other is simply not the sharpest tool in the shed. my solution.. that i actually came across on accident. i was playing a warmage. that means high intelligence. he was also a dark elf.. which means he felt superior to everyone else.. even if he wasnt. so he simply started giving ideas, and refering to everyone else as "Stupid humans" eventually he got so stuck up and obnoxious that everyone got sick of him (even me) and they started coming up with their own ideas just to shut him up. :D
ChimericPhase 05-01-05, 09:40 PM	After I moved I got stuck in a group that was like that. My solution: I made a monk who had taken a vow of silence. She refused to speak. I played very in character at every chance. First time we played the group stopped and looked at me. Silence. After that they started to act on their own, timidly at first, but later more bolder as they realized "Hey, our plans work too!"
CJDragon 05-02-05, 05:02 AM	wow, all good ideas, thanks! I'll give you a little more information about my group. First there is one person who shows serious promise in coming up with great ideas eventually. He's playing a rogue, so he's slowly getting better with flanking and stuff that gets him sneak attack damage. When i became DM I started trying to get him to think outside the box more, and outside the game hes good, but when they get into a fight ingame, he forgets everything and goes into a straight fight. I think his biggest problems are fear of his character dying and that he doesn't know the rules very well. However the party druid died saving his life, so I'm gonna try to get him to roleplay the whole life-debt thing, and maybe it'll make him less worried about death. Then theres the most veteran player. He's been playing 3 years (not really veteran, but it was me who introduced him to it 3 years ago, and we're only 15). He's pretty good at combat ideas, but everyone relies on him to do everything, so now he just doesn't bother anymore. He now plays a monk, so he doesn't really have a lot to do, which the others don't seem to understand. Then the druid. He's really starting to get used to his spells and use them to great effect tactically, but he died saving the rogues life, so I'm not sure how he'll play from now on. I'm hoping he doesn't start sitting out more, but the fact he'll be a level lower and is a druid (so not great in melee) means he may just start going with the flow again And lastly the cleric who plays as a fighter. He wears full plate, wields a two-handed sword (which he isn't proficient with, but the other DM refuses to listen when i say that *sigh*) and only ever gets into combat. In the 10 sessions we've been playing this campaign he's only ever cast healing spells... on himself. So thats what I'm working with. Ohh, and I've asked them before what they want out of the campaign, and they said they want roleplaying (but they don't roleplay), they like non-combat adventures (but they get bored with them and complain when they don't fight), and they enjoy coming up with clever ways to defeat their enemies (but they don't come up with any). So basically what they say they like, and what they do, are completely different, so I just don't know anymore :confused:
Enialis Galadonels 05-02-05, 04:46 PM	I got this problem and solved that: play character specialized onli in narrow roles: -charismatic, but not smart sorcerer: u can do a lot of negotiations and bargaining and throw some spells, but your character does not know anything about spotting/sneaking/tracking, does not any melee combat tactics, thus, you leave these issues for them. And then do not give any advice in these fields, whatsoever. Very very rarely, u can mention them OOG for fellow players "if i would be fighter/cleric, I would do so". But try not to. -powerful and very stupid barbarian: your character knows when to range, knows that flanking is good, and that better is to charge firstly on spellcasters, because they have nasty spells. But your character in this case does not anything whatsoever about spells, and diplomacy. Leave just all these decisions on them. -sneaky rogue, who is good at all these skills but nothing on melee/spell side. Same stuff. Doing so, will: firstly: provide good advice and RP in your character moments, but will force other decisions on appropriate characters (and you could very rarely give hints them OOG, but it will have to come from their characters in game, hence, you will not have to be center) secondly: also provide you with more or less full enjoyment of game, since you will have you moments of ideas appropriate to your characters and you will have your moments of glory. Summary: One character cannot be really good at everything (melee tactics/negotiations/spell selection/trapfinding etc.- there are things where you cannot give advice, since your char doesn't know them). That's called balance.
snowlynx 05-02-05, 06:25 PM	Give the players even more control for a few sessions; see if your DM will allow whimsy cards? That might force them to start coming up with ideas. Here's The link to what whimsy cards are....eh, it's not my page, it's just a good explanation. http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/whimsy.htm
Bane 05-02-05, 06:48 PM	Set them up against their clones. Make copies of their character sheets, and set them up against people who have exactly the same abilities, but have the benefit of tactics. Beat them down with the clone party. Once they realize that the characters weren't any better, they should figure out that they lost because one side of the fight used brains, and it wasn't them. That will make them start thinking, if only so they can drop mass beatdown on all who oppose them.
Torack 05-03-05, 01:57 PM	Introduce the fighting cleric to the Paladin class. Problem 1 solved. The druid and the forgetfull rogue might be a problem, however if you keep reminding them of their abilities I'm sure they'll get them eventually. Finally have the players read the Player's Handbook and explain the roles of each character and if they insist on playing a character a certain way, introduce them to characters that can(Greatsword wielding Cleric -> Paladin) or inform them of the abilities to multiclass and so gain all the abilities they want. A Fighter 1/Cleric x will be able to carry a greatsword. Similarly choosing the War Domain will allow a character to pick up their Deities favoured weapon as a free feat. Pick a deity that has the Greatsword and the War Domain...voila. Problem solved. Best you can do for now is show them their options, not limitations.
Sargon 05-03-05, 02:04 PM	Maybe a character wit ha low intel score... and then role play him that way.. granted everyone may die but... i've had several characters die just because I was playing the character the way i imagined him
Xanthia 05-04-05, 03:30 AM	My problem is, evberyone follows me because my character is usually the most powerful. A lot of people in the group make poor character decisions, and it makes me look overpowered a lot of the time. They follow me not just because I normally pick the best course of action, but becasue they know that they couldn't survive an encounter without me. I decided to make a completely average character (human sorcerer, default array stats, and no items, spells, or feats that weren't in the PHB). Instead of making everyone else take charge, the DM's NPC ran the party because he was the most powerful character! I guess my plan backfired.
Torack 05-04-05, 04:40 AM	Well in your case, I'd suggest you help the others in building their characters. And DM with active party NPC's are always a bad thing IMO.
Turin 05-04-05, 10:19 AM	Has it occured to you that perhaps you just naturally have the personality of a leader? In my experience, some folks really are just leaders. Other people make excellent "right-hand-men." Other people are just sheep. You can try to get them to think for themselves as much as you want, but often it's so deeply rooted in their psychology that they wouldn't know what to do with the ability to lead even if they had it. It's hard for those of us in the "free world" to admit it sometimes, but democracy doesn't always work becomes sometimes people don't want to have to make decisions for themselves. So my advice? Be the leader! Make a paladin or wise wizard or whatever and lead the party to new heights of adventure! Maybe you'll get lucky and one of them will be inspired to move up the "chain of leadership" to become a right-hand-man sort of person. Or maybe not, but at least you won't be frustrated by having overly high expectations. ;)
D+1 05-04-05, 11:38 AM	Start a new character. Play a mute barbarian.
CJDragon 05-04-05, 11:58 AM	Again, great ideas, thanks a lot. The ideas about playing mute people or stupid people don't really help though, since when I don't help they begin dying. Last session they had a suprise round on a group of 8 normal orcs (unarmored beacuse they were suprised). 4 lvl 2 PC's and a wolf animal companion. It SHOULD have been an easy fight, but the rogue got taken to negative hitpoint... twice, the monk was taken to 0 and the druid got killed. So If i don't help in combat, they die. Also, I really enjoy coming up with plans and strategies, in and out of battle. In one fight when I was a player (we were attacking an army that didn't know we were coming) and i spent literally hours pouring over the players handbook coiming up with a battle plan. We wiped out the entire army without a single casualty, and we were only lvl 10. Even the DM was impressed, lol. So basically I need a character that I can roleplay as battlewise, but he can be stupid about everything else, and have a poor charisma. I was thinking maybe a human that was raised by a paranoid father. The story would be something like he was raised to know all about combat and the art of war, but he was never allowed to leave his home, and so baaaaad people skills (low charisma) and generally can't interact well with people. That would mean I have a reason to tell them what to do, as it were, but some major flaws. What do you all think? Any ideas to make this idea better?
Torack 05-04-05, 02:31 PM	I'm slightly confused here. Are you the DM or the player? Who was DM'ing the Orc battle? You? If that's the case, start dumbing down the enemies. Don't have them use tactics and stuff that your players can't think of themselves(And remember they're pretty bad at that.) Similarly you could ask them to play warriors(Fighters would be your best choice, followed by Barbarians), and work your way from there. Surviving battle is the most important route here. From there on in, you could slowly reintroduce the other classes starting with the more combat oriented ones(Clerics, Monks, Paladins, Rangers) and focussing on adventures that are geared towards the abilities of these characters. Just be sure to point them out the first time. Ofcourse you could also ask your players to READ THE EFFING MANUAL, or allow them to peruse it while adventuring. I'd advice a series of short 1-shot adventures geared towards the different character classes and their abilities.
Aubri 05-04-05, 04:15 PM	I have something of the same problem. This game, I've deliberately tried to step back and say nothing unless necessary (being a reticent warforged helps.) I still wind up directing the party most of the time, but that's okay--I make a fair leader, if I do say so myself. It'd be rather nice if people would follow the plan, though...
Nidair 05-04-05, 06:14 PM	Some people just don't seem to see the light, and won't use tactics in a lightyear. Unless a proper demonstration is given, I suppose.
CJDragon 05-05-05, 01:00 PM	I'm slightly confused here. Are you the DM or the player? Well, at the moment I'm doing pretty much nothing. I am a "co-DM" as in I am the one who looks up rules and checks no-one is cheating (which my party does a lot of....*sigh*). I don't take control of encounters, but I stop the other DM messing up, as he doesn't pay attention sometimes, and so I check he knows whats going on. I'm thinking of re-introducing myself as an NPC in the party, as the PC's are currently getting their butts kicked, and need saving. By having an NPC character, I can give advice when needed, still help the DM but not have to worry about the story or surviving. I think it solves the problem, but it could just create new ones...
Torack 05-05-05, 02:41 PM	I'd ditch the NPC concept (Trust me, it will as if you were a player) and tell your DM to tone down the battles a bit if they keep dying. If its just bad rolls that kills the characters, there isn't alot you could do, other then telling them to get new dice. Similarly you could sit down with the players and have them draw up a tactics sheet with some basic questions on it.(i.e. Is my character a front-liner? Who can cast spells and what type? Who can cast healing spells? etc.) I recall...eah, I think it was DM_Denubis saying she wasn't a very tactical person but played a tactical character, so she sat down and drew up a sheet of questions that she would ask herself every combat encounter and thus direct the others into options they could take. I believe she even posted part of it on this board. I'll be damned if I can remember where. Maybe the DM's Worst House Rules or something.
UltimateReality 05-05-05, 03:41 PM	I recall...eah, I think it was DM_Denubis saying she wasn't a very tactical person but played a tactical character, so she sat down and drew up a sheet of questions that she would ask herself every combat encounter and thus direct the others into options they could take. I believe she even posted part of it on this board. I'll be damned if I can remember where. Maybe the DM's Worst House Rules or something.*cough* Um, that was me. (I'm pretty sure DM_Denubis is a guy, too. I think.) I still have it around on my hard drive and can repost if people want. (Although I'm thinking of getting a webpage and just sigging the darn thing. :P)
Torack 05-06-05, 02:48 AM	At least I got the sex right...I hope. :thinks: :help:
Keenath 05-06-05, 11:48 AM	I have a tendency to be the leader of the group. SO my latest character is a chaotic barbarian with an unusually high charisma (15!) but low intelligence. She's really sort of the party pet -- she loves to talk to people and she sort of ends up as a leader by dint of always wanting to go DO something, but pretty soon the rest of the party started trying to lead and do things themselves just to avoid her saying something that gets them in trouble! She's the sort who, when looking for the black market, would find a shady looking character, poke him, and say, "Hi! Where's the black market at?"
Aeromus 05-06-05, 06:22 PM	Every party needs a leader. You've found your nitch. The players don't mind. Go with it.