Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Phantom Flan Flinger 11-21-06, 03:58 PM	...as a result of which my character lost a hand and an eye. I'm looking for suggestions about where to take her in terms of concept and build. She's a Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 1, was going to be pure Swash but we needed a Rogue so I thought that I'd use the high Dex and the whole swashbuckling concept and aim for Thief-Acrobat. TA now sounds a little unlikely, considering I now have no depth perception and a stump! Yes, I know, it's D&D not real life, and the DM has said that it's not going to affect anything (I have been given some minuses, to AC and to various skills, but that's all). I could just carry on regardless. But - and without wanting to take the game into melodrama and angst - I don't just want to ignore it. I mean it's a cool thing to have happened, and I have a potentially memorable character here. I want to think of some way to incorporate it and make it work. So. On to my various questions. Firstly, I was thinking I could use the inevitable hook as a weapon - is that possible, rules-wise? How would it work, would I need to take TWF? IUS? Something else? Could I use it for Disarms? And would that count as armed or unarmed (it's not like I can BE disarmed, presumably)? If I did this, would I be better taking Fighter levels for the feats and forgetting about the finesse aspect and the Rogueishness (Rogue was my second level, so I only have one rank in everything)? Or should I stick with Rogue and have the "yeah, and I fight with my hook" thing as a bit of added flavour instead of making it central to what the character's role is? (I mean, I don't have to fight effectively with it, do I - not if I'm not the party's fighter.) Secondly, where should I be aiming this in the long term? If things go according to current plan, I am expecting that the campaign will take us up at least to 12th level. Is there a PrC that would suit? Or should I stick with Swashbuckler or Rogue on the grounds that I've got all the individuality anyone could ever want just through the story? And thirdly, in your opinion would it be total cheese to go with the default option of business as usual and end up being a Thief-Acrobat, tumbling and jumping nimbly around... with a hook and an eyepatch? (This is kind-of rhetorical, since I can smell the Brie from here as I type. But is there any way I can redefine the class/redescribe the talents so as not to be so jarringly unlikely?) Lastly, any other ideas? Campaign is set in Greyhawk, and the PCs are part of the crew of a ship. Alignment is restricted to Good (I'm CG). The other characters are a Druid, a Cleric (one of these might multi into Fighter in due course) and a Ranger. The DM isn't overly concerned with party balance so there's no niche I'm required to fill (I took Rogue as much because I like playing Rogues as because we needed one), but as a player I don't like overlapping roles. Stealth skills would be nice, since nobody else has any to speak of. Thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions. Oh, I should also mention that I had the option of retiring the character, so the DM isn't being a jerk here at all.
Matthew77 11-21-06, 04:34 PM	Wow.. fun story.. lots of options for you. Here's two suggestions: 1) Go the Captain Ahab route, become focused on revenge. If you are evil, slide into Assassin or Blackguard, determined to wreak your vengance on the world that has maimed you. If you are good, try for Justicator or Shadowbane Seeker, hunting down those that would inflict such wounds on others. 2) Often being maimed and disfigured can trigger personality changes. Especially in this case as a Rogue/Swashbuckler, much of your self-image is tied into being nimble and quick with excellent physical skills. Now that your abilities have been damaged, it might be logical to turn to other means of power, like Arcane Magic! I'm thinking Beguiler would be great... denied the ability to be rogue-like through your physical prowess, be rogue-like through your mental skills instead. Also, if you feel shame about your deformity, you can use illusions to conceal yourself or disguse your wounds.
Salla 11-21-06, 06:15 PM	You ran into a Cleric of Vecna, and lost a hand an an eye. Y'know, it sounds like the DM may have his own ideas on what to replace them with ...
Gentle_Android 11-21-06, 06:30 PM	A hook and an eyepatch?
Salla 11-21-06, 06:36 PM	A hook and an eyepatch? Not quite. I'm thinking a replacement hand and eye courtesy of Vecna himself.
Aegeu 11-21-06, 08:48 PM	Maybe later. In the meantime, you could get yourself a graft. Something along the lines of a Bodak Eye (if evil), or one of the exalted graft things (if good).
albinomonkeyking 11-22-06, 01:00 PM	Maybe it's just me, but in a lot of medieval or D&D type settings in books there is often a sneaky or badass character, and often times, they are missing an eye. You happen to be missing more. I think it would be cool to stick with what you have. The loss of the eye isn't too detrimental to your combat capabilites, although I think a ranged character would be worse off. As is, I think it is a very cool role-playing/image idea. If your character wasn't very hardened before then make her tougher, maybe she will become that badass character you see in the books, the one people whisper not to mess with. As for the missing hand, it limits you a little. I would suggest you not get a hook if only because......well I think they are retarded. You can't be very cool with a hook hand unless you are in neverland. I would suggest going with a different course. Perhaps a stump knife? Hell, why not stump sword if it is more to your liking. Or a fake hand that is always gloved. If your swashbuckler fights with finesse you could always hold it above your head (Don't know the name of that) while you fight with your other hand. Or, like I said earlier, you could have a hidden weapon there in case of emergencies. I doubt most people would take off a girls glove and assume she has a fake hand with a blade hidden in it. I think the missing hand is a great chance for a lot of cool ideas for weapons, replacement hands, and role-playing ideas. Just don't do go with a trident....we all know how cool that is.
Kitaki 11-22-06, 01:49 PM	Not quite. I'm thinking a replacement hand and eye courtesy of Vecna himself. I had fun with that one time. To most people a Demi-Lich that is a hand and the hand you speak of are indistinguishable. When the unsuspecting person performs the ritual, poof, Demi-Lich gets a new body.
mlund 11-22-06, 01:54 PM	Don't over-think the realism here. You've got to think cinematic themes to fit with Dungeons and Dragons logic. Do pirates and mercenaries with bad-ass eye-patches ever have depth perception problems? Of course not. Losing an eye just makes you a bad-ass, nothing more. Losing a hand is a bit rough. You can't climb as effectively with a stump. But who says you stick with a stump? There is a reason pirates put hooks there! You're a Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue 1 right now. You could easily build out into a Dread Pirate and use the hook and eye-patch to really play up the angle. - Marty Lund
High Octane 11-22-06, 03:13 PM	Arrrrrrrr!!
Salla 11-22-06, 05:49 PM	You're a Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue 1 right now. You could easily build out into a Dread Pirate and use the hook and eye-patch to really play up the angle. - Marty Lund But ... what about the ninjas? :) (Can you qualify for Dread Pirate off the ninja class? I may have to try this sometime ...)
The Phantom Flan Flinger 11-22-06, 06:19 PM	Thanks all, some good ideas here. I like the idea of a false hand that's always gloved. Much better than a hook, now I think about it - more feminine/civilised, while still being an unusual feature (in case the eyepatch isn't enough). And I'm definitely going to toughen her up a bit, good points about the nimble/dextrous/"lucky" self-image taking a knock and how she might be feeling about it all.
Lycanthromancer 11-22-06, 08:18 PM	Attach a hand-cannon that shoots Magic Missiles or somesuch? Having a few grafts also wouldn't be too bad at all. With this character, having an Eye of the Succubus (work with your DM on the mechanics - maybe Charm Person 3x/day?) or even an Eyepatch of Energy Ray (a power from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) wouldn't be out of line, and could potentially be awesome, especially if you go pirate. A pirate...that shoots laser-beams...out of her eye(patch)... Whoa.
Saytr 11-22-06, 08:41 PM	Duelist All the good abilites depend on using a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. +1 dodge bonus PER LEVEL starting at 7th level !!
High Octane 11-23-06, 03:25 AM	Duelist All the good abilites depend on using a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. +1 dodge bonus PER LEVEL starting at 7th level !! Only up to your INT modifier.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 11-23-06, 12:09 PM	Shame, my Int is only 14. Still, I may revisit Duellist and see how it would look when all mixed together. Someone did suggest it when I first came up with the concept, I discarded it only because I preferred Thief-Acrobat (and possibly there was some overlap with what Swash gives you, not sure now).
ShubNiggurath 11-23-06, 05:39 PM	Multiclass to wizard or sorcerer (depends if INT>CHA or vice versa). Ask your DM to lose a level (possibly both!) and take wiz/sor ones. You could consider to die to lose a level if your DM does not allow that. You will catch up. This because you will have no problems with the missing eye/hand as an arcane caster. Roleplaying-wise you could say that you don't trust your appearance/body/luck any more, so you turned to tha dark arts.
Prak, the Mad 11-23-06, 05:58 PM	go the Dr. Strangelove route... metal hand, on the end of an arm with a mind of it's own. then start wearing a headband, tilted to hide your empty socket. (yes, I'm kidding about the Kakashi reference) anyway... I'd say go find a fiend in Sigil, and get a fiendish Arm and Eye. there ya go.
Neofish 11-23-06, 10:19 PM	I can think of 3 possible routes. 1st. "last time you caught me off gaurd, it's only fair that I return the favour." Your character, now maimed, has become bitter and lost what honor he/she may have had, only fools present themselves to their enemies, and what has happend to you is proof. You character now focuses on being a ghost, striking first and striking last in a single blow, no time for weakness, no time for vulnerablities. Character applications : alingment shift towards neutrality and possible evil outlook. Gain proficiency in stump knife. Your paranoid and self-centered outlook should be reflected with max ranks in spot, listen, hide, move silently. Perhaps multiclass into ninja for ghost step. 2nd. "flesh is weak, and to rely upon it will be our undoing" In a moment, your grace and beauty was taken from you, but it is not the fault of your attacker, it is your own for putting such faith is something so weak and defenseless. You now seek to replace what you have lost, and more, in order to protect yourself from further losses (and perhaps to protect and show others that the burdens of flesh are not to be counted upon) Character applications: become an arcane caster, or a divine caster of a god of forge, or an artificer. Seek to replace lost limbs with something stronger, perhaps aberrant grafts or constuct limbs. the Fleshwarper from Lords of Madness or the Renegade MasterMaker from Magic of Eberron (I believe) would be good choices from pretiege. OR, perhaps your character onle focuse on the mind now, in which, any psionics would be good. 3rd. " Hmph! A hand and eye will be the last things you need when I get done with you!" Your character is set to prove that his/her losses are nothing more than a mere setback. If one sets their mind to it, anything can be accomplished. Others are wooed by your sheer force of will and determination, and your optimistic attitude helps others apirise to give 110%. Character application: keep advancing in your current classes, focus on social skills. Perhaps adnace down martial classes if you feel your character would prove that they are unhindered due to their losses. Or perhaps advance as a bard to to inspire others to overcome thier hardships for the greater good. Anyway, those a few suggestions, hope this helps.
Solo_Phoenix 11-24-06, 04:43 AM	The loss of the eye isn't too detrimental to your combat capabilites, although I think a ranged character would be worse off. When you aim with a bow or rifle most people would tend to close one eye...let's just hope you lost the correct one.
Caliborn 11-24-06, 05:42 AM	Duelist gets that dodge bonus only when fighting defensively and it is not limited by intelligence bonus. You gain your intelligence bonus added to AC whenever you also have your dex bonus to AC, but only when not wearing armor or holding a shield(not that holding a shield is something your character is likely to be doing). You also get bonuses to initative and Reflex saves along with bonus damage dice when using a light or one handed peircing weapon(and nothing in your other hand), the ability to deflect projectiles with your weapon, and what amounts to the Mobility feat(but stack with Mobility).
kelvinaw273 11-24-06, 12:29 PM	Find a cleric with Regenerate and pay him for it ... then carry on as before.
Vaelan 11-25-06, 02:53 AM	Only up to your INT modifier. Elaborate Parry gives you a bonus equal to your Duelist class level when you fight defensively. Canny Defense gives you your Intelligence modifier to AC, to a maximum of your Duelist levels. You are thinking of Canny Defense whereas Elaborate Parry was the ability that was referenced.
High Octane 11-25-06, 01:54 PM	Elaborate Parry gives you a bonus equal to your Duelist class level when you fight defensively. Canny Defense gives you your Intelligence modifier to AC, to a maximum of your Duelist levels. You are thinking of Canny Defense whereas Elaborate Parry was the ability that was referenced. Ah. I was confused since he didnt say "while fighting defensively."
YamiSouru 11-25-06, 11:43 PM	in the Tome of Magic book they have a vestige who in his backstory had something VERY similer to what has happend to you, he had his hand removed unwilling at the hands of his enemies. So what did he do? he got a gem encrusted gold hand put onto the stumb of his arm that could be taken off and replaced with a rapier blade. I see no reason why you cannot do the same just add a ornamental eyepatch. Remember Swashbucklers are confident and stylish. and if you run into the priest who took your sword hand again, well i know I would be shocked to see someone walk up with a rapier blade on their arm and trying to beat me up. Also it would go a LONG way to showing your charactor off as a confident badass who will long be remembered.
Lycanthromancer 11-26-06, 04:14 AM	Remember what Luke Skywalker did in the Star Wars movies once he lost his hand? He got a cybernetic graft. If you still have your hand, have it necromantically-grafted back onto your arm, or get another graft of some sort. Tentacle-grafts, anyone? Or maybe a beholder eyestalk? You could get some creepy things going, here. Graft an eye grafted onto your hand and an extra mouth grafted into your empty eye socket (under an eyepatch, of course). That could certainly be...interesting...
High Octane 11-26-06, 03:00 PM	Remember what Luke Skywalker did in the Star Wars movies once he lost his hand? He got a cybernetic graft. If you still have your hand, have it necromantically-grafted back onto your arm, or get another graft of some sort. Tentacle-grafts, anyone? Or maybe a beholder eyestalk? You could get some creepy things going, here. Graft an eye grafted onto your hand and an extra mouth grafted into your empty eye socket (under an eyepatch, of course). That could certainly be...interesting... http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail47.html
New 11-26-06, 03:21 PM	What? Nobody's mentioned chainsaw yet? :D Ahh, I'm pretty sure there's a supplement somewhere that has a magical arm you can replace your hand with. Alternatively, I'm pretty sure if you ask nicely enough and are lawful you can snag yourself an arm from Mechanus.
Neofish 11-26-06, 10:31 PM	What? Nobody's mentioned chainsaw yet? :D Groovy!
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-26-06, 11:00 PM	...as a result of which my character lost a hand and an eye. TA now sounds a little unlikely, considering I now have no depth perception and a stump! For heavens sake! What's wrong - flavour wise - with a SW/Rog with a hook-hand and an eyepatch? :rolleyes:
UnrelentingHoror 11-26-06, 11:17 PM	I don't know about you, but empty eyesocket sure sounds like a magic item slot to me :D Get something cool like a glass eye that gives you ture seeing, or better yet one with a skull printed on it that gives off a fear effect, you could wear an eyepatch over it till you needed to dramatically reveal it to your foes :devil: Of course thats all custom stuff you'll need to work out with your GM, but still. Then for the hand get something like an animated gauntlet you could strap onto your stump that was directed by your thoughts like a real hand. Maybe it has a fragment of your soul in it or something.
Salla 11-26-06, 11:33 PM	For heavens sake! What's wrong - flavour wise - with a SW/Rog with a hook-hand and an eyepatch? :rolleyes: Arrrrr.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 11-27-06, 12:56 AM	For heavens sake! What's wrong - flavour wise - with a SW/Rog with a hook-hand and an eyepatch? :rolleyes: Nothing. I just want to consider options beyond the obvious since I have a bit of downtime before the next session. I had intended to be a SW/Rog and PrC into TA. TA was because I had a nice mental image of fighting on board ship making good use of the rigging and the confined/cluttered spaces, leaping from deck to deck and from ship to ship and what-have-you. Then I lost the hand and the eye. So I'm rethinking my plans for future development, both for RP reasons and because I don't think TA fits any more. I had rules questions about using the hook as a weapon, and while I was typing I wondered if anyone had any good ideas as an alternative to staying as SW/Rog. I must ask my DM about getting a chainsaw, if only to see his face.
High Octane 11-28-06, 03:16 AM	Arrrrr. ARRRRR!!!!!
dhamonra 11-28-06, 05:54 AM	Here's an odd (if not expencive) idea. How about a wand for that second hand. All the fun of unexpected blasting, and doubles as a club :):dancin: :ayyyy!: :bounce:
Dei 11-28-06, 02:55 PM	An idea I had that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet and could be fun is to continue down the rogue route and become a tinkerer, rather than an acrobat. Your character knows that they'll never be the fine physical specimen they once were but is still determined to be effective in their role as an adventurer. Take some nifty craft skills and poof, suddenly your fake hand's detatchable and has a spiffy little replacement that can be used as a skeleton key/wire cutter/stethoscope/general tool of much thievery. As for the empty socket behind the patch? Doesn't take much imagination before you start putting all sorts of neat little things in it's place. A small lockpick for those times you just can't get a hold of another set? Maybe even use a craft trap skill/use magic device to set up a nasty little surprise for the next person to try and grapple you? Nothing says let go of me like a searing light spell directly from your eyeball into theirs or some low level equivalent such as a headbutt activated acid spray. If your DM's amenable you could even eventually start to use your skills in conjunction with a friendly wizard and perhaps even replace the lost extremities. Though naturally with a few "enhancements" darkvision, see-invisibility, joy buzzer, built-in masterwork thieves tools, etc, etc, all cunningly hidden beneath a guise of normality. Anyway, just an alternative if you wanted to keep the "maimed" feeling of the character rather than the bad-ass one-eyed priate thing.
dhamonra 11-28-06, 03:40 PM	If your DM's amenable you could even eventually start to use your skills in conjunction with a friendly wizard and perhaps even replace the lost extremities. Though naturally with a few "enhancements" darkvision, see-invisibility, joy buzzer, built-in masterwork thieves tools, etc, etc, all cunningly hidden beneath a guise of normality. Anyway, just an alternative if you wanted to keep the "maimed" feeling of the character rather than the bad-ass one-eyed priate thing. I can't help but notice the Inspector Gadget concept being thrown out there :)
Dei 11-28-06, 04:00 PM	I can't help but notice the Inspector Gadget concept being thrown out there :) Unintentional but true :P Though at the start it would be more along the lines of: "Pass me hand number three and the eyeball with the green crystal please, this is going to be a delicate procedure" than "Go go gadget lockpick."
High Octane 11-28-06, 05:26 PM	Unintentional but true :P Though at the start it would be more along the lines of: "Pass me hand number three and the eyeball with the green crystal please, this is going to be a delicate procedure" than "Go go gadget lockpick." But the latter has so much flair!
Dei 11-28-06, 08:26 PM	Actuallly considering the character that might be more appropriate, someone who delights in surprising enemies who underestimate him when they see his wounds. Oh, something else I forgot to mention, a rune/trap/specially crafted wand of a ray weapon in the eye socket would allow you to get sneak attack damage with it provided you catch the enemy by surprise, and let's face it, even in the heat of combat they're going to have a very, very hard time predicting that you'll attack through that unobtrusive little eyepatch. Be careful you don't abuse something like this though or your DM may tire of it rather quickly. But the character concept would be something like a character who hides their true abilities, perhaps wearing lightweight but swathing, covering robes to hide their build and armoury. Remaining unobtrusive and meek most of the time until he is needed. (note, you decide when you are needed not the rest of the party so don't feel that this would limit you to a background role, you could easily take on the role of the voice of sense/planner/leader, picking up on those things the more brash miss.) Then as soon as battle is joined his glove falls to the floor, revealing a wickedly sharp blade/glinting wand/cocked and aimed hand-crossbow (edit to preference) as with a jerk of his neck his patched eye suddenly burst with light and he spins into the fray. Equally his party soon learns to respect the odd, clicking, whirring machinations hidden beneath his glove as time and again he opens doorways and makes the way safe with apparent ease. Assume this man is handicapped at your peril.
sidekick 11-29-06, 03:08 PM	Personally I like the basilisk eye idea. Oh and make sur ethe DM writes you up a feat that lets you use the stump for some cool effects. As for a hook hand - make it a sickle (or maybe dagger) with a +2 to disarm attempts. geddit? ;)
The Phantom Flan Flinger 11-30-06, 02:36 PM	Some really good suggestions here. I think I'm going to go for the fake, always-gloved hand - and maybe some stuff hidden inside - and have a think about the character's likely response to being unexpectedly maimed and whether that might take her in a totally new direction. Thanks, all.
Taraman 12-02-06, 10:09 AM	Great ideas here. I suggest you pass them on to your DM by sending him a link to this page and he can read them himself and use what he sees. Or have you perhaps already done that? hee hee hee hee hee :devil: Chainsaw. Ha. Chainsaw *shakes head* Actually the alternative eyes sound great, as do the grafts, but I was thinking more of..... well we'll just have to see :D