Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ride1wheel 09-23-04, 09:30 PM	Our group leveled up to third level, and the rogue took rapid shot as his feat (we use 3.0). All was fine until the first combat were the rogue tries to use Rapid Shot to attack twice with his light cross bow in the same round. I asked him about how he was reloading the light crossbow twice in one round. He said, "I don't have to. The feat says I get to attacks with a ranged weapon." I replied, "but you have to reload a crossbow to shoot it, wich is a move eqvielent action." After he said "but it doesn't say anywere that you have to reload a crossbow to shoot it" , we hit a brick wall, the group argued about it for about 20 mintues. The DM and most of the group sided with the rogue, saying the he was just following RAW. When I saw that nothing I said was going to change their mind, I said "Okay, since we can't see eye to eye, I'm not going to say anything else about this tonight because it is wasting playing time. We can figuer this out during the week, before next session." I sent the below email to the DM, and he hasn't reponded yet (its been 4 days and we are playing on Fri. or Sat.), so I thought I would ask you guys. Reloading a light crossbow takes a move action. When you reload the a light crossbow, you put an arrow in the crossbow and turn a crank to draw the arrow back. To shot an arrow out of a light crossbow, an arrow must be loaded into the crossbow. Attacking (or shoting) a light crossbow takes a standered action. Rapid Shot allows you to take a full round attack and get an exatar attack with any ranged weapon. Now, to use the extat attack the crossbow has to be loaded. Nowere in Rapid Shot does it say that you no longer need to reload your weapon. The Rogue could use a short bow to accomplish the same thing, with 2 less damage per round. My group has also had lots of other troubles with the rules during the last session or two. Example : xMnk1/Brd 1 using the quiken spell feat; the rogue sneak attacking from 100 ft; the psion saying the durration of an astral construct is several days; and the rogue sneak attacking gaurds that broke down a door, waited out of the rogues line of sight for 2 rounds as their commrads rused forward, then charged out of the room because "the gaurds didn't know he was their." I'm definently not perfect. I missed reread the rules on cover, and the rogue corrected me. Its just that every time something like above mentioned examples comes up, I'm always the one that says something. I can see why some of the other players are getting mad, but I just don't like to see the rules bent, twisted, and broken for for reasons other that realism or streamlining of game play. EDIT: fixed rapid reload
Thorak 09-23-04, 09:38 PM	The feat the Rogue apparently mistakenly thinks he has is Rapid Reload, which lets you reload a light crossbow as a free action (it speeds the others up too, but they're not relevant and it's right there in the PHB if you want to know). If I were the DM, and the Rogue pushed his luck, though, I'd let him fire the crossbow twice in a round without Rapid Reload. Of course, without the feat he's firing it without there actually being a bolt getting fired, since he's not loading it between shots. I'd love the look on his face the first time he makes the second shot and rolls to hit, getting a clear hit; "I hit!" "Okay, don't bother with damage." "whaaaa?" "That would've been a dandy shot, if you'd bothered to load your crossbow. You fired it empty." The others are, to the best of my knowledge, similarly erroneous. Either realize that they're playing very freeform and stop caring, or find a group who plays strictly enough for you. Or harass them until they actually read the rules.
White rabbit 09-23-04, 11:33 PM	Yes, it's probably Rapid Reload that he's thinking of. As for sneak attacking, it CAN occur with a ranged weapon, but only from 30 feet away. A first level caster using the quicken spell feat is useless, as the spell level is now too high for him to cast. The Astral construct power lasts 1 round per level. But thosr four instances can be cleared up by simply reading the entire entry, not just the good stuff. As for the rogue sneaking past the guards after backstabbing their commrades as they passed him in the doorway, well, let's just say that common ssense should apply here. Nothing short of an epic rogue could possibly pull that one off.
fatal error 09-23-04, 11:44 PM	Wait, does the rogue have both rapid reload AND rapid shot? If so then he can fire two shots in one round with a -2 penalty.
Kheldren 09-24-04, 03:39 AM	And a 1st level caster can Quicken Spell cantrips... As for the backstab - since this is (I assume) 3E backstab does not exist - Sneak attack does and works very differently. Case 1 - since the guards were fighting PCs and he was opposite the othe rparty members he is flanking and gets Sneak Attack. Case 2 - the guards are surprised - impossible - they are in combat therefore no sneak attack. Case 3 - the guards are flat-footed - impossible - they are in combat therefore no sneak attack. Case 4 - the rogue had sucessfully hidden so they did not notice him as they charged. Yes, entering the room negates his concealment he was using to hide in, but I think it not unreasonable that they could fail to see him with enemies ahead. In this case a kind DM could rule his first attack could be a sneak attack (but only first - one attack and both guards are aware of him). I am not certian of the rules position on case 4 without checking it further.
Omeg 09-24-04, 04:21 AM	Actually, if you take a look at it logically, you can't even fire a crossbow without reloading it; A large part of the reloading of a crossbow is pulling back the string (is that what it's called?) and getting the spring back in position. The actual placing of the bolt is a simple *snap* that pales when you compare the time that takes to the actual reloading of the crossboe. Without reloading your x-bow, there's no tension on either string, spring or trigger. Good luck doing anything with that, though I suppose he could always throw it at his enemy instead.
CuCulain42 09-24-04, 11:15 AM	Hey did anyone notice that it's a Bard using quicken spell. from the SRD:"Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action." I think that was the point ride1wheel was making with that one. Sounds like rules are either not being read at all or blatenly ignored.
Sucineri 09-24-04, 05:37 PM	Our group leveled up to third level, and the rogue took rapid reload as his feat (we use 3.0). All was fine until the first combat were the rogue tries to use Rapid Shot to attack twice with his light cross bow in the same round. Reading that it looks as though the rogue took rapid shot as his first feat and rapid reload as his second feat. So as someone else said..he DOES get 2 shots in one round, but at -2 penalty.
Naeron 09-25-04, 07:31 AM	Yes, If the Rogue has BOTH Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload then he can fire a light crossbow multiple times in a round because the latter feat makes it a free action to reload the crossbow.
ride1wheel 09-25-04, 11:40 AM	Wait, does the rogue have both rapid reload AND rapid shot? If so then he can fire two shots in one round with a -2 penalty. No, I mixed up rapid reload and rapid shot. He only has rapid shot. Here is basically what happened with the rogue and the gaurds: All of the party expect the psion is at the bottom of a pit. At the top of the pit, the psion and the NPC cleric attack two guards. They kill one, but the other guard runs off and warns the rest of the guards in the church. The psions yells for the party to climb back out of the pit and join him. The psion then barricades the entrance to the room. The party joins him, and ready actions against the next guard that comes though the door. Combat plays out like this: Round 1: the gaurds rush though the door after breaking it down. The wizard (me:D), cast sleep. It drops 3 of the gaurds. The party drops the two gaurds that they have line of sights to with ranged weapons. The rest of the don't come though the door for some reason (I think we might have dropped their commonder) Round 2: The wizard color spays the corrador were their are still 9 gaurds standing, and drops 2 more. The ranger moves infront of the wizard to protect him (he doesn't have a ranged weapon in his hand). They are the only enemys the standing gaurds can see. The rogue keeps his readied action to shot any gaurds that come though the door. Round 3 (or the end of round 2): The remaing 7 gaurds move though the corridor. When one has gone though the door (I think that it had a line of sight to rogue for 10 feet before he went though the door), the rogue shoots at him, and use sneak attack, saying that the gaurd didn't know he was their. The rogue never tried to hid and he also shot into combat. From the standing gaurd's perspective, they opened the door, and their commorads rushed out, fell, and were shot by 5 arrows. Then they see a spellcaster drop more of their commads and a some fighter defending him. Nether of them have a ranged weapon or any arrows. They move forward (not charging), and see a hobbit with a crossbow pointed in front of them. They contied moving foward, carefuling steping around the dead bodies, walk thought the door, and get hobbit shoots at them. I guess what I was asking in the origan post was "how do you feel feel when some one corrects you on a rule? Is their any way that you would prefer it is done? What do you do with players that tend to accidently miss things when the read the rules" finally, were does it say you can quicken cantrips?
finishedup 09-25-04, 11:58 AM	As for your "original question", "how do you feel...", I think you could get 10 different answers from 10 different people. I don't mind as a DM if a player corrects me on a rule. If I'm not sure, I let him look it up quickly, and if not sure, I overrule him until after the session. The other campaign where I play, the DM is the same. But we don't have chips on our shoulders about "knowing DnD better than anyone else", we just play to have lots of fun, so that might help. But how we do it is beside the point, how YOUR party isn't (just beside the point). I would seriously consider bringing this general "rule-lawyer" thing up after/before the next session. If the others just say, "Forget it, it's too much hassle to look up rules", then lay off (and personally, I'd find another group). Another thing is too offer to put up those rule "interpretations" on this board, and have the group adhere to the general consensus posted. There are disagreements, but I think most basic problems mentioned, sneak attack 100' away, bard with quicken spell, etc, are just about 100% shot down.
ride1wheel 09-25-04, 12:14 PM	If the others just say, "Forget it, it's too much hassle to look up rules", then lay off (and personally, I'd find another group). They don't, in fact, they belive they are playing RAW. In the case of the crossbow, the DM allowed it because "it doesn't say any where that you have to reload a crossbow to shot it." Before this session I will encorge the other player to read the rules. I will also ask the group if their is any way they would prefer being correcteced on the rules.
dantedarkstar 09-25-04, 12:44 PM	They don't, in fact, they belive they are playing RAW. In the case of the crossbow, the DM allowed it because "it doesn't say any where that you have to reload a crossbow to shot it." :mymy: Nowhere it also says you have to have +5 vorpal longsword to swing it... :bored:
Father Dale 09-25-04, 01:36 PM	Why is the rogue using a crossbow anyways?? He should be using a bow so he doesn't have to deal with this. And remember that he can't get sneak attacks with ranged weapons UNLESS the target is, for whatever reason, denied his dex bonus to AC. In other words, there is no flanking with a ranged weapon.
Aramil_silverwind 09-25-04, 03:19 PM	I'm suprised that no one has noticed this, but you say that one PC is a monk/bard? how? A monk hasto be lawful and a Bard cannot be lawful.
Sucineri 09-25-04, 04:05 PM	I'm suprised that no one has noticed this, but you say that one PC is a monk/bard? how? A monk hasto be lawful and a Bard cannot be lawful. So he can be his own beatbox while he breakdances. :)
Nedlum 09-25-04, 04:19 PM	I presume it was a L_ monk that then over his first level drifted to N_. I mean, now that he's taken a level in bard, he can't go back to monk anyway.
ride1wheel 09-25-04, 07:18 PM	how? A monk hasto be lawful and a Bard cannot be lawful. Thats why he is an xmnk 1/brd 1 as in ex-monk 1/bard 1 Nowhere it also says you have to have +5 vorpal longsword to swing it... shhhhhh..........(they might hear you)