Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krokoff 01-17-08, 05:27 PM	I am in a party of 4 players and 1 DM. Right now we are at a crossroads for the campaign. The DM has a homebrewed world, similiar to Greyhawk theme. Right now we are staying at an undead castle, we were fighting in a few sword spiders and one of our members died. Inside the castle there are a few roaming vampires that we conversed with, so one of them is offering us immortality. If this is done, and the Vampire Spawn template is used... do you think a wizard should be bumped up to equal hit points as a fighter? Since the Vampire Spawn is a d12, we would all be converting our hp's immediately. I for one think it would unbalance the game if a wizard all of a sudden has the same number of hit points as a fighter... can anyone pose pro's and con's for me to look at. Thank you all
kelcimer 01-17-08, 06:23 PM	If you are really that concerned about hit points then why don't you have everyone roll up hit points and then put them in a pool. Say between you guys you rolled up 88, 80, 70 and 60. Well, the 88 would go to the fighter, the 80 to the cleric, the 70 to the rogue, and the 60 to the wizard. But only if it means that much to you. If I were in the situation I wouldn't mind either way. Don' t forget that as undead you would not gain the benefit of a constitution as you would no longer have one.
Tequila_Sunrise 01-18-08, 03:20 AM	I am in a party of 4 players and 1 DM. Right now we are at a crossroads for the campaign. The DM has a homebrewed world, similiar to Greyhawk theme. Right now we are staying at an undead castle, we were fighting in a few sword spiders and one of our members died. Inside the castle there are a few roaming vampires that we conversed with, so one of them is offering us immortality. If this is done, and the Vampire Spawn template is used... do you think a wizard should be bumped up to equal hit points as a fighter? Since the Vampire Spawn is a d12, we would all be converting our hp's immediately. I for one think it would unbalance the game if a wizard all of a sudden has the same number of hit points as a fighter... can anyone pose pro's and con's for me to look at. Thank you all Keep in mind that vampires have huge LAs, which hurt casters a lot more than other characters. Also, why do all or none of you have to become vamps? Is there a reason that some could choose to while others not?
Axiomatic_vampire 01-18-08, 04:33 AM	Don't fall for it, this is a DM morality test. He's dangling power and immortality in front of you, and all you get if you fall for it is to be a thrall to a powerful vampire, and clean out the latrines where he keeps his cattle. It's a trap.
Shadowshimmer 01-18-08, 01:32 PM	Well, becoming a Vampire has some benefits and some tribulations. Think from the perspective of your character. What would they want to do? A wizard likes power just as much as the next magic user but they are also smart enough or wise enough to know the cons that come along with being a vampire, which hit point issues would be the least of your concern. From the perspective of most of the wizards I play/have played, I would fireball that castle to the ground.
dragonseth 01-18-08, 05:17 PM	Well, becoming a Vampire has some benefits and some tribulations. Think from the perspective of your character. What would they want to do? A wizard likes power just as much as the next magic user but they are also smart enough or wise enough to know the cons that come along with being a vampire, which hit point issues would be the least of your concern. From the perspective of most of the wizards I play/have played, I would fireball that castle to the ground. Have fun damaging the stone walls with those fireballs. B) Vampires Spawn don't retain much if any free will IIRC. Either way, Spawn or full-fledged vampires, you'll be slaves to the guy that infects you, so... it's probably not a good idea.
Krokoff 01-18-08, 09:17 PM	My DM insists we will have free reign. We will take oreders from the Vampire who converts us, but we will prety much be a band of Vampire Sawn adventurers. Sure a VS has pros and cons, but how does it hurt the Magic-user the most? I feel that once a magic user equals hp's with a fighter, it will severly overbalance the game. Am I correct in this determination?
KyoMamoru 01-18-08, 09:26 PM	Sorcerers and Wizards Vampire sorcerers and wizards retain their class abilities, but if a character has a familiar other than a rat or bat, the link between them is broken, and the familiar shuns its former companion. The character can summon another familiar, but it must be a rat or bat. Aside from that, you have the level Adjustment issue. Your characters are going to have to 'buy out' the new level adjustment [somewhere around a +8]. This means the Magic users aren't going to be getting any new spells for a very, very long time.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 09:46 PM	My DM insists we will have free reign. We will take oreders from the Vampire who converts us, but we will prety much be a band of Vampire Sawn adventurers. Sure a VS has pros and cons, but how does it hurt the Magic-user the most? I feel that once a magic user equals hp's with a fighter, it will severly overbalance the game. Am I correct in this determination? Not really. A wizzy has a poopy fort save, so he's still rather suspectible(without magical protection) to anything with a fort save. There is also the matter of AC, so if he doesn't prepare the AC spells, or gets jumped or dispelled, those hit points suddenly vanish, and you have magical pate instead of a party mate, unless your wizard is VERY good at what they do and have broken the game anyway. A level adjustment hurts a spell caster more because they cannot multi-class well(Or in only a few cases). Let's take the tiefling, for instance. A fighter loses some fort saves, BAB, a little HP and a feat from taking this and being a level behind. However, the resistance to some elementals makes up for it, they probably has a beefy fort save anyway. If they can put his dex slightly lower, they can perhaps put more points into CON for HP/Fort saves or STR for a higher AB. If he is a DEX fighter, then the added dex adds to both AC, reflex save, or more STr from not having to put their dex up so high. The damage done to their damage output and survivability is minimal, the tiefling has a few tricks to make up for this. The wizard on the other hand, loses DC on his spells, caster level, number of spells known, number of spells he can cast. The +2 INT that the tiefling gets does add to the DC and the number of spells per day, but not as much as certain levels of wizard, and does nothing for the number of spells known or the duration. Duration helps the wizard keep the spells going all day so that he doesn't have to recast them. A wizard NEEDS spells known, and the more the merrier. The wizard could just cast something to increase his elemental resistance, and generally avoids combat so the dex doesn't help. The bonuses from extra INT doesn't help much with these issues. With a creature or template with a higher LA, the difference is worse. It is like putting a level 2 wizard on a level 10 creature. What is the wizard doing to do, cantrip the enemy to death? Unless the enemy is a pile of dirt or has 12 hit points, this won't help much. The fighter still has a AB, abilities, and hit points. He might even gain AC from the template, but this isn't one that I am familiar with. I'm sure that he gains quite a few resistances that he wouldn't be able to get other wise. He loses on feats, but the bonuses of the vampire is a good trade off. I wouldn't worry about the wizard's HP, without regarding his AC or ability to get out of combat. And look at his spell list, THEN see if he's breaking the game.
kelvinaw273 01-19-08, 07:28 AM	OK, lets look at the Crunch: Low HD characters gain higher HD, you all gain awesome stat boosts, you gain special abilities. You all gain weaknesses, and they are the same ones (helpless in daylight, cannot enter buildings uninvited, etc.) so what stumps one of you stumps all of you. You also gain huge Level Adjustments (if this is done properly) which nerfs ALL of you (fighters lose out in BAB and HP, rogues in skills, spell casters in spells) with regard to the encounter levels you face. Look at the Fluff: Your soul is immortal in D&D, and if you aren't evil that's a definite plus. Would you REALLY trade your immortal soul for a 'life' extension in this world? Bear in mind, vampires are not truly immortal - they can be killed, and a dead vampire stays that way. Given the number of heroes and the like you will face over the centuries, dying isn't a possibility, it's a certainty. Do you really want to be tied to a diet that is going to annoy every goody-two-shoes across the world? One minute you're eating the innkeeper's daughter, the next some blond chick's back-flipping into your tomb with a stake in her hand and a thousand previous incarnations of combat skills - not fun! Either way, it's a bum deal that looks too good to be true. And if a deal looks too good to be true, then it usually IS. Stake the vamp, take his stuff, bask in the adulation of your fellow men and women.
ralphdex 01-19-08, 08:42 AM	Ah, if only it was that easy!!! You see I play the wizard in this campaign. The DM does a pretty good job of keeping things balanced. Our characters are pretty powerful even without being vampires and the DM cranks up the opposition to keep it fair. Almost every encounter has the possibility of a TPK. Since we are all the same level or real close, if we all get level adjustments it kinda works itself out, DM just cranks the encounters up another notch or two. The DM is actually into us becomes vamps, so I don't see him having us clean floors for a century. Actually, we are in a military campaign so absolute control of us could be a problem. Hmmm... We'll have to discuss this. Anyway, nothing has been decided yet, wer're waiting on the DM for more details. He got's something up his sleeve for us, I'm sure. I believe my fellow player thinks his fighter will be rendered obsolete. But I know, even with 100 hps, my wizard will not be wading into combat with an silvered iron golem wielding a magic sword!!! That what a meat shield is for!! Even if it is dead... or undead!
Shadowshimmer 01-19-08, 09:37 PM	"Have fun damaging the stone walls with those fireballs." I never said the fires would be stared from the outside and it would not be the first time in history. "On St. George's Day (April 23rd), 1684, at around 10pm, an explosion in the magazine reduced the tower to its exterior walls. There is some reason to believe the explosion was not accidental." This is York Tower and okay maybe I could not burn it to the ground but at least to the exterior walls. Don't become a vampire. Be your own master and not a pawn.
Etarnon 01-20-08, 02:18 AM	Just say no. It's not worth it.
kelvinaw273 01-20-08, 03:03 AM	Wear the black ribbon! Say no to Blood!