Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 08:17 PM	I'd like to start with a quote from George Costanza: "I am the Lord of the Idiots" In my current game, I'm playing a Human Warlock. He's all kinds of fun but a bit boring and not as flashy as when it comes to combat. All I can do is Eldritch Blast everything and once in awhile use my wand of MM. I was hoping to add a little more punch to his arsenal next level (he's 8th level) and take one of the feats from Complete Arcane that let me Maximise his blasts. Now here's the problem, the DM said I could play a Warlock but only if I gave him story control over my character. I said yes because there wasn't anything else I wanted to play at the time and I thought "story control" meant that I would figure into the plot somehow and have some hope shattering revelation at one point (I don't mind a little rail-roading). But I was wrong. Apparently "story control" means that I can't choose the feats I want, multi-class as I choose, or do much of anything beyond blast stuff because the DM won't even have enemies attack me. Trained soldiers ignored me and instead of using bows to bring down the flying diabolic caster, they just attacked the 29 AC fighters. I know I've painted myself into a corner on this one and now that I've started hearing from another player and the DM that I'm "broken" because I do 4d6 damage, I want to remind all of you players out there that giving up control of your character is not worth it for any reason. Just say no.
Crimson_Concerto 08-15-07, 08:22 PM	Wow, I'm so sorry you have such a crappy DM.* I thankfully don't know any that would do something that horrible. Hell, my group thought Warlocks were overpowered at first, sure, just like a lot of other people, but they just got over the knee-jerk raction after, like, a day, as they do with a lot of other still like Psionics or Tome of Battle that looks powerful at first but really isn't... I'd just drop out of the game if I were you. Do you have any other options for play, or do you know only this group? *yes, yes, I know somebody will say I don't know that for sure, but you know what? The evidence we have so far isn't good...
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 08:27 PM	It's the only group I can get to on my limited budget. The story is really great though and I was kinda hoping to die and just be able to use my backup character but because I'm "part of the story" I don't get to die. My group doesn't understand what broken is. They think a level 20 Monk call everything, that Mystic Theurges are powerful, and that a Druid is for girls. I'll give the DM credit for one improvement though, he does a lot of good roleplay. The downside is that it's been only 2 sessions and he's already retconned our first fight, railroaded immensely, and gave us a Deus Ex Machina in the form of a sexy lady Monk. We'll have to see what happens.
Kouk 08-15-07, 08:30 PM	The balancing factor with Warlocks, is that while they can just fire willy-nilly, most groups with Wizards do not experience more than a few fights a day, and so the Wizard never truly runs out of spells. The scaling of Warlock abilities is also poorer than the damage potential of the standard arcane classes, as long as the party does not overextend them, as well as the lack of versatility in Warlock abilities. It is pretty much "what if the Sorcerer could attack like a Fighter (ie, not run out of attacks)?" But really, your DM is being ... annoying, you should make a new character if he won't let you run it yourself. Just explain you didn't know what the hell "story control" meant (I don't either). EDIT: If you can't make a new character because you are "important to the story", just retrain as another spellcaster of some sort. It is not likely that your involvement in the "story" deeply involves your specific powers or the origin of your powers, but even a Sorcerer could gain his power from fiends or something (hey, they can get it from Dragons, Elementals and Fey can't they?).
GrogMcGee 08-15-07, 08:47 PM	My suggestion is two-fold. First tell your DM that it isn't working out for you, that is, you're not having fun being told what to do etc - talk to the other players aswell. If they're reasonable people they should be able to see that it's not you the warlock that's broken it's that the DM is. If all else fails, kill the character - that is, do something like not attack with your powers, say try and beat up the next monster with your whimpy little fists... if you don't die from that then everyone should be aware that it's the DM's fault not yours.
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 08:57 PM	I'm all alone on this one. The other players see me as a "Optimizer" which is a bad word for them even though they consistently do their best to make martial characters that have AC up the ying yang and have like huge attack numbers. The main problem is one guy who likes being the center of attention and now that his Mystic Theurge sucks butt, my warlock is now "broken" and "unfair". It's not my fault he broke one of the Commandments of optimization...twice. I'm gonna try and use my morning star in combat and see what happens. I get kind bored with just floating there blasting over and over, so this saturday I'm gonna charge into battle.
shadzar 08-15-07, 09:18 PM	is it possible that the warlock was not allowed by the DM and only let you play it under certain conditions so it fit his game? if so and you truely want a warlock then tough doodies. you got what you wanted in a crippled state because it wasn't wanted in the first place. be thankful the DM was willing to work with you and let you try playing it. either continue playing it as-is or ask to be allowed to create another character that fits the world and restricitons thereof for the DMs game. otherwise i have no idea why the DM would cripple this class unless he doesn't like you, or isnt a good DM.
Chanmanm8 08-15-07, 09:27 PM	I'm all alone on this one. The other players see me as a "Optimizer" which is a bad word for them even though they consistently do their best to make martial characters that have AC up the ying yang and have like huge attack numbers. The main problem is one guy who likes being the center of attention and now that his Mystic Theurge sucks butt, my warlock is now "broken" and "unfair". It's not my fault he broke one of the Commandments of optimization...twice. I'm gonna try and use my morning star in combat and see what happens. I get kind bored with just floating there blasting over and over, so this saturday I'm gonna charge into battle. Oh god I hate that. The last group I was in was full of players who weren't skilled at all or completely new. And, like you, they were the only active ones I could manage to find and have time to meet with. So I agree that you should try to discuss this issue with your DM NICELY (and tell him to look at this board and see allllll the feedback :D). If you feel the drama is not worth it, drop the character like you and some others mentioned above, or even drop out if the whole thing. Mediocre players like those in your group don't get the difference between a "good" player and a "munchkin" player at all. I had that issue as well, but clarified it when I explained the different (giving examples) WHILE also explaining why their builds weren't doing so well either. Take for example, there was one girl who was used to "online anime forum" rpg'ing. And at one point, she wanted to tame an Owl Bear...when clearly she didn't have the ability or stats to do so. She also asked the DM "Can I use diplomacy to convince an enemy to kill themselves???" :nonono: :headexplo :waits:
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 09:29 PM	is it possible that the warlock was not allowed by the DM and only let you play it under certain conditions so it fit his game? if so and you truely want a warlock then tough doodies. you got what you wanted in a crippled state because it wasn't wanted in the first place. be thankful the DM was willing to work with you and let you try playing it. either continue playing it as-is or ask to be allowed to create another character that fits the world and restricitons thereof for the DMs game. otherwise i have no idea why the DM would cripple this class unless he doesn't like you, or isnt a good DM. The DM said he was allowing almost anything and I worked with him on CharGen to make it fit the world. He helped my pick a race (I wanted an Elf) and helped me flesh out backstory by giving his notes on one of the countries in his world that would accept warlocks. And I don't think it's a question of being overpowered because he gave us 18,18,16,16,14,14 for stats, allowed homebrewed races that were without LA and gave huge bonuses, created PrCs that were extremely overpowered, and he encouraged the other players to spend level 10 gold (we're 8th level) and buy as many magic items as possible.
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 09:32 PM	Oh god I hate that. The last group I was in was full of players who weren't skilled at all or completely new. And, like you, they were the only active ones I could manage to find and have time to meet with. So I agree that you should try to discuss this issue with him NICELY (and tell him to look at this board and see allllll the feedback :D). If you feel the drama is not worth drop the character like some mentioned above, or even drop out if the whole thing is not worth it. Mediocre players like your group don't get the difference between a "good" player and a "munchkin" player at all. I had that issue as well, but clarified it when I explained exploits and such WHILE also explaining why their builds weren't doing so well either. They're pretty set in their ways but I'll show up at the game earlier and talk to him about the situation and see if I can resolve it. He's a really cool guy and I can tell that he's trying hard to make the game serious even though people fall asleep during his game and make innappropriate names for their characters. If I can't resolve it then I'll just bow out of the game.
concerro 08-15-07, 10:00 PM	The DM said he was allowing almost anything and I worked with him on CharGen to make it fit the world. He helped my pick a race (I wanted an Elf) and helped me flesh out backstory by giving his notes on one of the countries in his world that would accept warlocks. And I don't think it's a question of being overpowered because he gave us 18,18,16,16,14,14 for stats, allowed homebrewed races that were without LA and gave huge bonuses, created PrCs that were extremely overpowered, and he encouraged the other players to spend level 10 gold (we're 8th level) and buy as many magic items as possible. He must be new or young or both. I think you should just do what you want with the character and if he does now allow you to do it then give him the character sheet and if he ask why, just tell him since he is the one playing him he should have the character sheet.
shadzar 08-15-07, 10:02 PM	The DM said he was allowing almost anything and I worked with him on CharGen to make it fit the world. He helped my pick a race (I wanted an Elf) and helped me flesh out backstory by giving his notes on one of the countries in his world that would accept warlocks. And I don't think it's a question of being overpowered because he gave us 18,18,16,16,14,14 for stats, allowed homebrewed races that were without LA and gave huge bonuses, created PrCs that were extremely overpowered, and he encouraged the other players to spend level 10 gold (we're 8th level) and buy as many magic items as possible. ok then i don't see what the problem is with the character other than you can't choose new feats. maybe it is the latter and just he doesn't like you or is a bad DM. if he allows anything then what reason would he have to dictate what new abilities you gain and not the others...also why would you have even agreed to it if the other players also did not have such stipulations and were allowed anything race/class wise? something seems fishy or there is a lack of nformation here still. either you aren't giving enough information somehow still, or you just don't have the information to give. :thinks:
nightside_samurai 08-15-07, 11:57 PM	I don't really know what other info to give. I wanted to play a Warlock and he was a little hesitant. To calm his own reservations he said to me "I'll let you play it under 2 conditions. 1) You have to be human because that will tie into the story. 2) I will have story control over your character because I'm going to make him part of the campaign world." I agreed because I knew that Warlocks aren't broken compared to other casters of the same level, and because I didn't want to be a martial character. I figured they would realize that 4d6 damage is nothing compared to what a Wizard could do at that level. They party is mostly fighter types aside from the MT and the Rogue, so I thought we could use a little more arcane flavor. I even spent a big chunk of my gold on a wand of Cure Serious Wounds so that I could back up our "pseudo-cleric".
Tyraxus 08-16-07, 12:22 AM	4d6 is overpowered? Ask them if a wizard/sorceror with a wand of scorching ray is overpowered. If they say no, then point out that it's the same as what you're doing. If they say yes, then politely ask them how, since it's a second level spell. I'm with concerro. Tell the DM that if he's going to play the character, then he needs the sheet. Then roll up either a wizard or a cleric with access to the magic domain, buy a wand of scorching ray, and carry on doing what you've been doing. For added chuckles, buy a wand at 7th level if you have the cash, for two 4d6 rays per attack. If he won't let you reroll as a CORE CLASS, make sure your groupmates know that you tried abandoning the "overpowered" character and he wouldn't let you. Yes, this is pitting the group against the DM, but in some cases it's necessary.
shadzar 08-16-07, 12:32 AM	I don't really know what other info to give. I wanted to play a Warlock and he was a little hesitant. To calm his own reservations he said to me "I'll let you play it under 2 conditions. 1) You have to be human because that will tie into the story. 2) I will have story control over your character because I'm going to make him part of the campaign world." I agreed because I knew that Warlocks aren't broken compared to other casters of the same level, and because I didn't want to be a martial character. I figured they would realize that 4d6 damage is nothing compared to what a Wizard could do at that level. They party is mostly fighter types aside from the MT and the Rogue, so I thought we could use a little more arcane flavor. I even spent a big chunk of my gold on a wand of Cure Serious Wounds so that I could back up our "pseudo-cleric". that is what i mean by you may not have the information. the DM probably hasn't given it to you for whatever reason. maybe, and it seems likely to me; you are pretty much playing an NPC. if this character so closely ties into the story then is that what you wanted? if not then you should bring it up with the DM. if this character is pretty much an NPC and you would prefer to play your own character rather than a plot device then you should try to get a new character. otherwise find out why the DM won't allow you to choose things for yourself rather than him assigning you yuor feats and such if he doesn't do it for the other players and allows them to pick what they get at new levels. story contorl should NOT mean character growth contorl unless your character is just an NPC that he wants to have specific things for when this character may turn against the party. make sense?
RoseOfMontague 08-16-07, 12:58 AM	I'd hand control of your warlock over to the DM, and reroll a character with no strings attached. If this is impossible, plan B of leaving the group is always an option. So which will you take? No game or poor game?
nightside_samurai 08-16-07, 01:24 AM	It depends on how the conversation goes with the DM on Saturday. He will probably work with me but I'm starting to get a little tired with some of the other people in the group and I'm just getting stressed instead of having fun.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-16-07, 01:56 AM	I'm just getting stressed instead of having fun.That's when you quit. I came to that realization a long while back about a group and game I'd been playing for years. I showed up on time each time, had stress rather than fun, it was essentially a job I didn't get paid for. So I notified the DM of my reasoning, and quit. It was really hard to do, but I don't regret it at all. Now that I don't have force of habit compelling me to play that game, I see how bad it was at the end. Even now players will sometimes say to me "You should come back, we all miss you, the game is virtually dead without you", and I just ask them "Is Jerry* still running those homebrew catfolk that Charm with no save*?", they answer affirmative, and after my skin finishes crawling I politely decline. It feels good to be free of the weekly BS. *: Name and recurring incident specifics changed to protect the well-meaning but awful at DMing.
danielinthewolvesden 08-16-07, 03:25 AM	Here is one idea. Invite your DM here, to this thread. Let him explain himself, and listen to advice. Who knows, after we hear his side, we might decide he is right.
nightside_samurai 08-16-07, 04:01 AM	Here is one idea. Invite your DM here, to this thread. Let him explain himself, and listen to advice. Who knows, after we hear his side, we might decide he is right. I'd love to but I don't have his email address, but I'll talk to him about it on Saturday and see what happens. :D
DrMorganes 08-16-07, 09:58 AM	How 'bout a telephone number? Those still work, and generally have a better chance of rapid response :p All kidding aside, however, I definitely would like to hear from the DM before making any comments about his decisions. As for what you can do: Make notes comparing your class abilities and damage potential to that of every other character in the group. Toss in a druid, wizard, and cleric - all Core Rules only - for comparison. Heck, at Level 8 your party's rogue is doing at least 5d6 on a successful sneak attack (that's 1d6 from the most common weapons and +4d6 SA damage) - and he gets more than one per round! Wizards are doing 8d6 with a fireball.
nightside_samurai 08-16-07, 04:08 PM	How 'bout a telephone number? Those still work, and generally have a better chance of rapid response :p All kidding aside, however, I definitely would like to hear from the DM before making any comments about his decisions. As for what you can do: Make notes comparing your class abilities and damage potential to that of every other character in the group. Toss in a druid, wizard, and cleric - all Core Rules only - for comparison. Heck, at Level 8 your party's rogue is doing at least 5d6 on a successful sneak attack (that's 1d6 from the most common weapons and +4d6 SA damage) - and he gets more than one per round! Wizards are doing 8d6 with a fireball. Our Rogue is an 8th level Bug-type with 4 arms and multi-attack, you do the math. About the phone number thing, we aren't really very close outside the of the game since we aren't in a traditional setting. We rent a public space in the FLGS which his uncle owns. It's really not possible to kick someone from a game since we each pay 2 bucks to play there. I think that he has an awesome amount of potential judging by all the work he put into his campaign, but I think that this group of people isn't the right enviroment for him to showcase his talents. They're more "hack-n-slash" than RP-ing. Maybe I'll invite him to my sunday game and see if he'd like to play or run in a different enviroment where he can RP more.
shadzar 08-16-07, 08:39 PM	We rent a public space in the FLGS which his uncle owns. It's really not possible to kick someone from a game since we each pay 2 bucks to play there. screw that! you do know what FLGS means right? Friendly local gaming store. friendly isn't charging customers to play in the space provided. god help them if they have Magic tournaments and then players have to pay a fee to sit at one of the tables during the tournaments. i would be standing outsides if that is the case. cause i don't enter stupid businesses. sicne you pay, then get your money back. i think you are well within your rights to ask for a refund since you are not geting the product that you purchased. no reason for you to pay to help the DM run his game with a player controlled NPC. :rant: i have only seen one other time when paying to play was in a store. i was running the game for the store and i also ran the store for someone else. i didn't get paid for any of the work i did other than product. well that doesn't buy supplies to run a game of d&D for 16 players so i had to charge in order to to afford eBaying some books like PHBs to be shared around, handouts, maps, character sheets, etc. my ink cartridges aren't free nor is paper, and the store owner wouldn't supply anything. i even had to purchase the prize for the player that had most improved over the course of the adventure. there are some real a-hole store owners out there. makes more sense to me that you allow these customers to play in the space that no one else is using. i MIGHT understand if it were closed off from the rest of the store speciafically to prevent distractions and interference from othes, but it better be buil;t for RPG and have all the ameties provided such as pencil sharpeners and trashcans, comfy chair that dont give you numb ass, and a table big enough to lay things out on, with shelves along the wall for any minis, books that are not in use during the session. :rolleyes:
Chanmanm8 08-16-07, 10:46 PM	Our Rogue is an 8th level Bug-type with 4 arms and multi-attack, you do the math. About the phone number thing, we aren't really very close outside the of the game since we aren't in a traditional setting. We rent a public space in the FLGS which his uncle owns. It's really not possible to kick someone from a game since we each pay 2 bucks to play there. I think that he has an awesome amount of potential judging by all the work he put into his campaign, but I think that this group of people isn't the right enviroment for him to showcase his talents. They're more "hack-n-slash" than RP-ing. Maybe I'll invite him to my sunday game and see if he'd like to play or run in a different enviroment where he can RP more. .......You guys don't hang out at one of your houses or some open facility????? I can't believe they actually charge you as well...
nightside_samurai 08-16-07, 11:56 PM	It's 2 dollars for the use of the room and for having 2 fans and the AC on. It really isn't a bad arrangement. There's an awesome bakery next door that delivers our orders right to the table and it's quite a bit of space that's being renovated at the moment, and will be even better later. The paying thing doesn't bother me because we do get a bit messy at times and the owner takes out all our trash and lets us use his printer for sheets and so on. It is a very FLGS, but that isn't exactly relevant (to me anyways) I just don't want to be a glorified NPC. I'll offer him the sheet for him to use for his story integrity and I'll use a different character. I might point the DM in the direction of this thread if you guys promise not to bash him, he's a good guy and very creative, and I don't want him to feel like I don't like his campaign because it's very well made. Edit: It's also the only comic store in town that isn't rude and disrespectful to gamers. The other main store is all about Pokmanz and M:tG, and they won't even set aside a table in their spacious play area for D&D.
shadzar 08-17-07, 03:06 AM	if it didn't know any better i would say you live in my town. two stores, one bad. current store renovating. but the uncle of the DM store owner tells me otherwise. good luck however. (hides my pitchfork and torches but keeps them handy. )
Ecalsneerg 08-17-07, 11:34 AM	We rent a public space in the FLGS which his uncle owns. It's really not possible to kick someone from a game since we each pay 2 bucks to play there. His uncle owns it? Gee, what a nice, friendly uncle. I agree with the damage output argument. Do that. It's how I tried to convince my friend Psions weren't overpowered. However, I failed, then he rolled up a Wizard with Empower Spell. Bad times.
trapspringer 08-17-07, 12:03 PM	Ah-hah. You sold your character's soul to your DM. It would seem your infatuation with the class is exhausted. I'd recommend a sorcerer. It's basically the same thing you're doing now but flashier and with more heat. Talk to your DM and tell him your not having fun. Be direct. Normaly I'd say "be nice about it," but honestly he's failing in such a spectacular way at his job that honestly, I'd just be as blunt and direct as humanly possible.
Holy_Beholder 08-17-07, 12:47 PM	I know I've painted myself into a corner on this one and now that I've started hearing from another player and the DM that I'm "broken" because I do 4d6 damage, I want to remind all of you players out there that giving up control of your character is not worth it for any reason. Just say no. 4d6? Thats an average of 14. 2d6+7 gets 14. Thats a greatsword with 15 strength, power attacking for 2. Not to mention that they are probably getting two attacks at this point anyways. That would be 4d6+14 in two attacks, they get a bonus equal to your average. Thats without even getting into what wizards can do. If your 7th level, the fighter gets two, if your 8th the fighter and cleric gets 2. Also, your DR is barely anything, considering that the figher can easily do double your damage, that 2 is not reducing him. He is still almost doing double. What invocations do you have? At 7th level a wizard can deal 7d6 damage, at 8 8d6, note the way that is double yours, and they are beginning to have enough spells to not run out much anymore.
nightside_samurai 08-17-07, 12:49 PM	Ah-hah. You sold your character's soul to your DM. It would seem your infatuation with the class is exhausted. I'd recommend a sorcerer. It's basically the same thing you're doing now but flashier and with more heat. Talk to your DM and tell him your not having fun. Be direct. Normaly I'd say "be nice about it," but honestly he's failing in such a spectacular way at his job that honestly, I'd just be as blunt and direct as humanly possible. Thanks for convincing me not to invite him to this thread. Most of the people have been mostly civil and not rude. You on the other hand are demonstrating an elitist attitude. He hasn't DM-ed for us before so he's bound to make a mistake or two just like every single other person who's ever DM-ed.
nightside_samurai 08-17-07, 12:53 PM	4d6? Thats an average of 14. 2d6+7 gets 14. Thats a greatsword with 15 strength, power attacking for 2. Not to mention that they are probably getting two attacks at this point anyways. That would be 4d6+14 in two attacks, they get a bonus equal to your average. Thats without even getting into what wizards can do. If your 7th level, the fighter gets two, if your 8th the fighter and cleric gets 2. Also, your DR is barely anything, considering that the figher can easily do double your damage, that 2 is not reducing him. He is still almost doing double. What invocations do you have? At 7th level a wizard can deal 7d6 damage, at 8 8d6, note the way that is double yours, and they are beginning to have enough spells to not run out much anymore. I have Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, See the Unseen, and I think the Spider-Climb one. I had a conversation with another one of the players and I don't think damage output in terms of how high is the problem. It's the fact that it's consistent damage every round. And I also think that the player of the Mystic Theurge likes to be the center of attention and he's the main detractor of my "broken-ness".
Tyraxus 08-17-07, 02:42 PM	"Consistent damage output" is a problem? The Warlock's effectively an archer (a slightly worse archer, because he's all or nothing while an archer can shrug off a miss and have more attacks), what's he supposed to do other than sit back and blast? If they bring that up, ask them if a Sorceror with a wand of scorching ray is broken. It's the same thing.
nightside_samurai 08-17-07, 04:21 PM	I don't think it's the DM who is problem, I did agree to give him control over stuff and I should have asked what that would entail. Most of the people in the group appreciate my ability to help in combat. For example, one guy who loves to make optimized characters was impressed that I could turn invisible and fly as many times a day as I liked. With the exception of 1 person in the group they all think it's cool and different. One guy even refers to me as the "caster" of the group even though we have a Mystic Theurge. And I think that's the bigger problem for me. The MT isn't the center of attention and he's been a bit huffy puffy since the start of the campaign when the DM killed his parents when he was acting snooty towards the other players.* Now that he's gimped himself with bad caster levels and every bad guy makes the saves against his Fireballs or whatever he's lashing out at me because I'm the closest competition. What I would normally do in this situation is say "Broken? If you want to see broken I'll show you broken." and then I would proceed to make my character as broken as possible just to show that what he was before wasn't anything at all, but I can't prove by comparison that I'm not broken, it's just that he sucks more than I do because I have no control over my feat selection. ... It felt good to say all that :D * The PCs had just gotten to a big city after a very long war, and the rest of us had to rent rooms in shacks while the MT was bragging that he got to go home to mom and dad and sleep in a nice cozy bed. The DM laughed and when he got home an Elf opened the door and proceeded to inform him that his parents were dead and that the house belonged to him now. It was great! :)
trapspringer 08-17-07, 05:27 PM	Thanks for convincing me not to invite him to this thread. Most of the people have been mostly civil and not rude. You on the other hand are demonstrating an elitist attitude. He hasn't DM-ed for us before so he's bound to make a mistake or two just like every single other person who's ever DM-ed. lol. I stand by my assessment of the situation and believe, firmly, that the course of action I suggested will solve your problem quickly and with little to no ill blood between you and your DM. But do what you want, it's your life.
nightside_samurai 08-17-07, 05:52 PM	Wow, first time I ever used my Ignore list for something. Congrats.
nightside_samurai 08-18-07, 01:54 AM	So this is what I plan on saying tomorrow to the DM, and I'd like some input and feedback: "Hey DM, I wanted to talk to you about my Warlock. I'm not really having fun with him for a few reasons. Firstly, I feel like I have a lot less control over his feat selection than the others have over their characters. I understand that you have the right to ban things that you don't want for your game but the Fighters in the group are for more optimized than my Warlock. Another reason I'm not feeling good about my character is that every game I've played him in, I hear complaints from one person that he's broken when he really isn't. I'll be glad to sit down with you and run the numbers and show that it isn't that powerful compared to other casters. I made this new character based on one of the concepts you introduced to the game and I think you'll like it. I really like your campaign and the story you're telling and I don't want to miss out on it. But if I can't switch out the Warlock I won't be playing in it again.
deathbane 08-18-07, 02:02 AM	So this is what I plan on saying tomorrow to the DM, and I'd like some input and feedback: "Hey DM, I wanted to talk to you about my Warlock. I'm not really having fun with him for a few reasons. Firstly, I feel like I have a lot less control over his feat selection than the others have over their characters. I understand that you have the right to ban things that you don't want for your game but the Fighters in the group are for more optimized than my Warlock. Another reason I'm not feeling good about my character is that every game I've played him in, I hear complaints from one person that he's broken when he really isn't. I'll be glad to sit down with you and run the numbers and show that it isn't that powerful compared to other casters. I made this new character based on one of the concepts you introduced to the game and I think you'll like it. I really like your campaign and the story you're telling and I don't want to miss out on it. But if I can't switch out the Warlock I won't be playing in it again. sounds reasonable to me....he should give the character back to you completely or let you in as a new character.
MrCustomer 08-18-07, 02:23 AM	The DM won't have the enemy attack or fire at your character and yo are finding it boring? Well then I suggest that your character actively and boisterously Mock the enemies for not attacking him, deride them for being stupid and deserving of their fate. Do this all in -character, walk right up to the enemies noses, stand right in front of them and mock them for being too dumb for not attacking you. In short you should force the DM to either attack your character or be so horribly latant and obvious that the gods themselves would no longer be able to ignore it. But before you do this you should talk to the DM and express your concerns. Tell him you are bored with your Character and that if he wants to treat him like an NPC then the DM should play him as an NPC.
concerro 08-18-07, 03:05 AM	The DM won't have the enemy attack or fire at your character and yo are finding it boring? Well then I suggest that your character actively and boisterously Mock the enemies for not attacking him, deride them for being stupid and deserving of their fate. Do this all in -character, walk right up to the enemies noses, stand right in front of them and mock them for being too dumb for not attacking you. In short you should force the DM to either attack your character or be so horribly latant and obvious that the gods themselves would no longer be able to ignore it. But before you do this you should talk to the DM and express your concerns. Tell him you are bored with your Character and that if he wants to treat him like an NPC then the DM should play him as an NPC. strangely enough, I had a similar tactic in mind if the DM did not listen to reason
Ecalsneerg 08-18-07, 12:35 PM	So this is what I plan on saying tomorrow to the DM, and I'd like some input and feedback: "Hey DM, I wanted to talk to you about my Warlock. I'm not really having fun with him for a few reasons. Firstly, I feel like I have a lot less control over his feat selection than the others have over their characters. I understand that you have the right to ban things that you don't want for your game but the Fighters in the group are for more optimized than my Warlock. Another reason I'm not feeling good about my character is that every game I've played him in, I hear complaints from one person that he's broken when he really isn't. I'll be glad to sit down with you and run the numbers and show that it isn't that powerful compared to other casters. I made this new character based on one of the concepts you introduced to the game and I think you'll like it. I really like your campaign and the story you're telling and I don't want to miss out on it. But if I can't switch out the Warlock I won't be playing in it again. Word it civilly like that, and he's an ass if he won't listen. I wish people talked to me like that.
nightside_samurai 08-18-07, 05:28 PM	Well I said just that and it went well. He let me switch out characters but I'm not gonna go back to the game again. Today was a horrible time and it was far too much for me to deal with after all the crap I dealt with. There was arguing and no control over the situation, and people talking crap. Anybody need a player? :)
Shadowhowler 08-18-07, 07:14 PM	So which will you take? No game or poor game? Well, I know *I* am a bit of a snob... so I'll take NO game over a poor game any day of the week. Sadly, this means I am often without game tho... but so be it. :(
Divokej 08-18-07, 07:25 PM	It depends. Can you get to the Houston area roughly once a week? Starting tomorrow?
Shadowhowler 08-18-07, 07:28 PM	Well I said just that and it went well. He let me switch out characters but I'm not gonna go back to the game again. Today was a horrible time and it was far too much for me to deal with after all the crap I dealt with. There was arguing and no control over the situation, and people talking crap. Anybody need a player? :) Suck. I've had to quit many a game when they stoped being fun.... I just quit the only game in my area a week ago... and I REALLY liked my character, but I got sick of being jerked around and don't like dealing with people who can not seperate IN game from OUT of game. :( And yes, I *DO* need a player, very badly, I have been wanting to run a game for awile now. However, sadly, there are VERY few players I would want in my game in my area (only two currently) and I doubt you live anywhere near me. (Near me being Grovetown Ga) :weep:
nightside_samurai 08-18-07, 08:32 PM	I'm not even remotely close to any of you :( I'm in New England. I'm gonna have to start networking and trying to find people to play. And I know how it feels to leave right when you have a fun character. My cleric for the game I just left was really fun to play and pretty strong too.
Majick 08-19-07, 01:33 PM	Thanks for convincing me not to invite him to this thread. Most of the people have been mostly civil and not rude. You on the other hand are demonstrating an elitist attitude. He hasn't DM-ed for us before so he's bound to make a mistake or two just like every single other person who's ever DM-ed. The only mistake being made by your DM is the same mistake i made in my first game: Allowing things above and beyond what PC's should probably have, then not realising the ramifications of such said allowences. I sadly did this myself, but you can't help it being a new DM, you want your PC's to have awesome gear and have epic battles straight up, but when your not 100% on the mechanics and grading of equipment and level dependencies, things can go a bit weird, fast. All i would say is perhaps talk to him quietly by yourselves (so as not to embarass either party) and simply say that him being able to control the feats and elements of your character no longer make it 'your character', it's his. I would ask him (politely) to either back off and loosen up the reigns a bit on you and your warlock (which is most certainly not a broken class when compared to equal level clerics or wizards, in other words, other casters) or to simply take your character completely and let you use a new one... because the way your going right now, sounds terribly un-fun for everyone involved
Holy_Beholder 08-19-07, 03:32 PM	I have Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, See the Unseen, and I think the Spider-Climb one. I had a conversation with another one of the players and I don't think damage output in terms of how high is the problem. It's the fact that it's consistent damage every round. And I also think that the player of the Mystic Theurge likes to be the center of attention and he's the main detractor of my "broken-ness". Well, the fighter can get consistent damage too, and its not like you can't miss. You don't have any blast shape or increasing damage invocations, so you should be fine. Also, the rogue beats you at sneak attack damage, without including their weapon and strength. They also get that at a per attack basis, and is about to be able to get it multiple times per round. Fell flight can easily be countered with archers and stuff. Tell your DM that not being attacked as part of the story makes you seem out of the story. Point out the books in which main characters or other story centrals characters had a tendency to get attacked. What is your total BAB, and the fighters total BAB, as well as your exact level. I also need your AC, including touch. I will run some numbers on some monsters of your CR to see both of your average damages including miss chance, and average damage taken. I might do more, it depends on my mood. I probably will give the damage you take as a fraction as well(reminds me, I need your HP)
nightside_samurai 08-19-07, 04:08 PM	Well I said just that and it went well. He let me switch out characters but I'm not gonna go back to the game again. Today was a horrible time and it was far too much for me to deal with after all the crap I dealt with. There was arguing and no control over the situation, and people talking crap. Anybody need a player? :) Quoted for emphasis. I also don't have the sheet anymore.
shadzar 08-19-07, 08:43 PM	Quoted for emphasis. I also don't have the sheet anymore. well that is silly i would have kept the sheet. i don't give my characters to DMs.
nightside_samurai 08-19-07, 09:47 PM	I told him he could have it as an NPC since I wasn't gonna play it again.
Shadowhowler 08-19-07, 10:05 PM	I told him he could have it as an NPC since I wasn't gonna play it again. And since he was controling it already anyway... :P
nightside_samurai 08-19-07, 10:47 PM	And since he was controling it already anyway... :P Correct! :D
ArgulFraster 08-20-07, 01:29 AM	OUCH. My condolences. Wish I lived on the East Coast, I'd offer you a game.
wolf_man007 08-20-07, 09:08 AM	The main problem is one guy who likes being the center of attention and now that his Mystic Theurge sucks butt, my warlock is now "broken" and "unfair". It's not my fault he broke one of the Commandments of optimization...twice. I've never seen anyone play a mystic theurge and "suck butt". He must be doing something wrong.
Shadowhowler 08-20-07, 09:35 AM	I've never seen anyone play a mystic theurge and "suck butt". He must be doing something wrong. Well... At 7th level, when the other character have acess to those higher level abilities, and other casters have 4th level spells... the ol MT is still stuck rocking 2nd level spells, albit quite a few of them. That may be what he means by 'sucking butt'.
wolf_man007 08-20-07, 11:52 AM	Well... At 7th level, when the other character have acess to those higher level abilities, and other casters have 4th level spells... the ol MT is still stuck rocking 2nd level spells, albit quite a few of them. That may be what he means by 'sucking butt'. Ok, I admit that you're not especially as powerful as a caster of only one class, but I'm a fan of being more versatile. Being able to run around the battlefield while invisible, healing all your allies, is a personal favorite of mine. (Maybe not at 7th level, but soon after.) Those hybrid classes don't really seem good until the low teens, so I can see how he wouldn't like it.
nightside_samurai 08-20-07, 11:57 AM	The MT also gives up caster levels...twice. If you want to be an effective caster you need to keep the DCs of your spells high or you'll never connect at higher levels when a lot of the enemies have Evasion and such.
MrCustomer 08-20-07, 03:20 PM	Ok, I admit that you're not especially as powerful as a caster of only one class, but I'm a fan of being more versatile. Being able to run around the battlefield while invisible, healing all your allies, is a personal favorite of mine. (Maybe not at 7th level, but soon after.) Those hybrid classes don't really seem good until the low teens, so I can see how he wouldn't like it. I play a Mystic Theurg and you really, really need to optimize them to be good. Sure you got versatility but you have lower power spells. If you don't have the feats to go with the Theurg then you really are in a heap mess, it's a must be maximized to play character. An unskilled player would be a lousy Mystic Theurg too, it's easy to do something wrong or to not know what spells to use. btw use bigby's Hand to heal people around the battlefield
Shadowhowler 08-20-07, 10:32 PM	The MT also gives up caster levels...twice. If you want to be an effective caster you need to keep the DCs of your spells high or you'll never connect at higher levels when a lot of the enemies have Evasion and such. If your gonna go with the MT, you HAVE to take practiced Spellcaster, probably twice. Otherwise... yeh... most of your spells will fail.
wolf_man007 08-21-07, 08:09 AM	I play a Mystic Theurg and you really, really need to optimize them to be good. Sure you got versatility but you have lower power spells. If you don't have the feats to go with the Theurg then you really are in a heap mess, it's a must be maximized to play character. An unskilled player would be a lousy Mystic Theurg too, it's easy to do something wrong or to not know what spells to use. Ok, I'll agree to that. btw use bigby's Hand to heal people around the battlefield Or spectral hand. Whee.