Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jean-jacques 09-07-05, 11:20 PM	Yeah in a recent session of my campaign my character has purchased a goblin... yes a goblin :confused: Now to explain the situation i am a good cleric who saw a goblin fight in a poorer district of town (yes a goblin fight just like a rooster fight) betting etc i thought it was a travesty and tried to reason with the owner of the losing unconscious goblin to release the goblin and see the evils of his ways and in the end i ended up purchasing the goblin to release him from the careless man. So now i technically "own" a goblin. I really don't know what to do with the goblin now, i have ideas like maybe convert him to my deity and make him evil, but i have no clue how to go about this... :confused:
Draco Strang 09-07-05, 11:26 PM	Well if you are a good cleric, then you'd either want to set him free or maybe ask him to serve as your cohort? That'd be pretty interesting. As a good cleric, keeping him as your slave is pretty much ill-advised.
jean-jacques 09-07-05, 11:30 PM	ok don't you need the leadersip feat for him to be a cohort?
Yak of Darkness 09-07-05, 11:46 PM	ok don't you need the leadersip feat for him to be a cohort?In the "game mechanical powers-up-as-you-level" sense of a cohort, yes. But the "assistant NPC of yours who follows you around for (insert reason worked out in game here)" sense is governed purely by what happens in-game, and (optimally) should be gained through a combination of good PC roleplaying and good DMing.
jean-jacques 09-07-05, 11:49 PM	im more concerned with how i might in game use skills and what not to show what i mught do to oh say convert the goblin
Argon_Asimov 09-08-05, 12:53 AM	No skill never converted nobody. It might be possible with alot of RPing, properly planned out and executed. If you pulled it off reasonably succesfully in my game, you can be sure there'd be a hefty experience reward in your near future.
Longarms 09-08-05, 12:56 AM	Well, depending on the morality in the campaign, I would not necessarily rule keeping the goblin as a slave as against a good characters alignment. Lots of good people used slaves in the long history of civilization. Sure keeping a slave is clearly evil by today's standards, but you arent playing a modern RPG are you.
nyysjan 09-08-05, 05:58 AM	i am a good cleric i have ideas like maybe convert him to my deity and make him evil So, how do you fit these two together :thinks:
Norhg 09-08-05, 06:53 AM	So, how do you fit these two together :thinks: Goblin ninjas of Evil Pelorness?
Phrennzy 09-08-05, 10:11 AM	There has to be a "not" in there some where: Originally Posted by jean-jacques i am NOT a good cleric Or Quote: Originally Posted by jean-jacques i have ideas like maybe convert him to my deity and make him NOT evil
Callista 09-08-05, 11:48 AM	I'm going on the assumption that your cleric is Good; an Evil cleric is less likely to rescue an unconscious goblin. The skill you might use to convert somebody is Diplomacy--lots and lots of Diplomacy. So, here's how you proceed: 1. Heal up your goblin. Maybe insist he take a bath (if he's been beaten unconscious, he's probably all bloody anyway). 2. Have a talk with him. Find out who he is, where he comes from, what he likes and dislikes, what his plans for the future are. 3. Offer him a job. You need someone to clean your sword (or mace or whatever), keep up your armor, carry things, et cetera, and he's handy. In exchange, you'll pay him (Insert some amount a bit larger than the usual laborer wages, then double it because it's hazardous work) and provide food and clothes and other such necessities. Tell him that you're a cleric and can easily tell if he steals from you or your friends. Ensure him he doesn't have to fight if he doesn't want to. 4. Proceed to treat him like you'd treat anybody else--decently. Have anyone who takes watch make sure to keep an eye on him, though; you're not that gullible. 5. Every week or two, make Diplomacy checks. (Your DM will probably house-rule this.) Your goblin starts out at Indifferent; and once he's been changed to Helpful, you can consider him converted. Let's say he starts out at CE, and you're NG. Once he's Helpful, he changes to True Neutral and starts worshipping your deity. His alignment might change after that, but TN is close enough to make him your friend and no longer much of a threat. If you like, you can then load him off at the nearest temple of (Deity) and say, "Hey, he's a good worker, and he's proven himself to me; can you give him a job?". Good enough?
Beamup 09-08-05, 01:20 PM	Well, depending on the morality in the campaign, I would not necessarily rule keeping the goblin as a slave as against a good characters alignment. Lots of good people used slaves in the long history of civilization. Sure keeping a slave is clearly evil by today's standards, but you arent playing a modern RPG are you. Assuming standard D&D rules are in effect, morality is absolute and slavery is Evil. Unless you change the alignment system, there is only one system of morality for all D&D.
Andrew_980 09-08-05, 02:17 PM	Where does it say slavery is evil? Mulrandi in FR has temple slaves of LG gods, LN fomorians are slavers.
DaveReaves 09-08-05, 02:58 PM	No skill never converted nobody. It might be possible with alot of RPing, properly planned out and executed. If you pulled it off reasonably succesfully in my game, you can be sure there'd be a hefty experience reward in your near future. So what is the purpose of Diplomacy and Intimidate? Keeping him as a goblin flunky is a great idea, but paying him? No, you bought him fair and square. Now, I'm with the rest of the folk who say its probably a bad idea for a good cleric to keep a slave, but now he ows you the gold you paid for him, I vote you let him work that off by cleaning your mace and armor and hauling your stuff around. Don't be mean to him, but let him know whos boss. When you find a good place to drop him off (say a friendly goblin camp that takes in refugees) set him free.
Callista 09-08-05, 03:06 PM	Well, if we're talking about slaves and making them fight to the death...That *is* evil. Even slavery in general tends to be bad, though, just because of what it permits. A CG or NG person, in most societies where slavery exists, wouldn't want to hold slaves, simply because the status of a slave is as property, and that if the owner died (which adventurers do) the slave could end up anywhere, even in a place like the above (being forced to fight to the death). It wouldn't make sense to anyone non-Lawful (or many Lawfuls for that matter) that one person should have most of his life controlled simply because he was born into a certain social class, and that another shouldn't, simply because he wasn't born into it. A LG person might allow slavery, but only for people who deserve it (say, criminals on indentured servitude). However, there are societies (few and far between) in which slaves are recognized as having human rights (i.e., they're recognized as people just like anyone else, but they are simply required to remain employed by their masters), and enough opportunities to advance in the world even as slaves (for an example, see Ancient Greece/Rome), then a LG person would probably be OK with it. It's a cultural thing, and not slavery as you and I would be most familiar with it (American black slavery, that is); in that "slave" seems to be simply a social title, and not much of an impediment to anything other than being allowed to vote (which precious few were allowed to do anyway). The problem with slavery at all is that, in most societies, it is very easy to abuse a slave; and even a Lawful Good person would be wary of that possibility. If slaves are seen as property and not people (which is common enough where slavery exists), then all you need is one Evil owner (or, hey, even a careless or penny-pinching Neutral one) to make life living hell for a slave. The belief that freedom to own yourself and make your own decisions is a human (or in this case "sentient creature") right is held by so many Good-aligned people simply because it gives you the freedom to defend yourself from such abuses. Slavery as punishment, especially in itenerant socieites where prisons are impractical? Yes, that I can see. But not just being born into it. These are, however, my own opinions. I have no official quote regarding slavery from any WOTC book, and would appreciate it if someone could bring one to this discussion.
Beamup 09-08-05, 03:57 PM	Where does it say slavery is evil? Mulrandi in FR has temple slaves of LG gods, LN fomorians are slavers. Despite your sig, BoED. A non-core book ridden with problems, to be sure, but the closest thing you can find to a serious discussion of alignment.
SwiftFox 09-08-05, 07:37 PM	I'm going on the assumption that your cleric is Good; an Evil cleric is less likely to rescue an unconscious goblin. The skill you might use to convert somebody is Diplomacy--lots and lots of Diplomacy. So, here's how you proceed: 1. Heal up your goblin. Maybe insist he take a bath (if he's been beaten unconscious, he's probably all bloody anyway). 2. Have a talk with him. Find out who he is, where he comes from, what he likes and dislikes, what his plans for the future are. 3. Offer him a job. You need someone to clean your sword (or mace or whatever), keep up your armor, carry things, et cetera, and he's handy. In exchange, you'll pay him (Insert some amount a bit larger than the usual laborer wages, then double it because it's hazardous work) and provide food and clothes and other such necessities. Tell him that you're a cleric and can easily tell if he steals from you or your friends. Ensure him he doesn't have to fight if he doesn't want to. 4. Proceed to treat him like you'd treat anybody else--decently. Have anyone who takes watch make sure to keep an eye on him, though; you're not that gullible. 5. Every week or two, make Diplomacy checks. (Your DM will probably house-rule this.) Your goblin starts out at Indifferent; and once he's been changed to Helpful, you can consider him converted. Let's say he starts out at CE, and you're NG. Once he's Helpful, he changes to True Neutral and starts worshipping your deity. His alignment might change after that, but TN is close enough to make him your friend and no longer much of a threat. If you like, you can then load him off at the nearest temple of (Deity) and say, "Hey, he's a good worker, and he's proven himself to me; can you give him a job?". Good enough?That is some really good advice. Jean-jacques, I suggest you take it.
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-08-05, 08:40 PM	He Must Be Your Apprentice!!!!!!!!
Wolf72 09-08-05, 09:07 PM	He Must Be Your Apprentice!!!!!!!! Yoda had to learn from someone didn't he?
Andrew_980 09-09-05, 12:18 AM	A non-core book ridden with problems, to be sure, but the closest thing you can find to a serious discussion of alignment I think I would get better insight into good/evil by having a conversation with a child than that waste of paper.
Blackwind 09-09-05, 08:10 AM	Have him train under the party fighter and send him back to the games.
nyysjan 09-09-05, 12:45 PM	Yoda had to learn from someone didn't he? :rofl:
zzap1990 09-10-05, 11:49 AM	Have him train under the party fighter and send him back to the games. you spent money doing a good dead and getting him out so you wouldnt just train him and send him back! thats insensitive and the oppisite of what the origanil post wants so read it and think over your post.
tarsia 09-10-05, 12:11 PM	Well, I've always imagined goblins (especially goblins off on their own) as rather cowardly and, quite frankly, used to be bossed around. I've always gotten the impression that other humanoid races employ goblins for crap jobs because, well, they can. I So, especially if you treat the goblin well, talk him him and all that (as someone mentioned earlier), I doubt it'd take much convincing to get him to stick around - assuming that's what you wish for him to do. A little diplomacy (or intimdate) should do the trick. Depends, of course, on how the DM wants to do the personailty of the goblin, but I would think that's reasonable. If it was a group of goblins you rescued, you might run the risk of having them be more difficult to control, but one goblin who is used to being a slave should be pretty cowardly/subserviant - especially if he was born into the role or had been in it for quite some time. As for what to do with him . . . you could 'set him free' and then employ him (pay him a few copper or something minimual like that) to follow you guys around and do mudane chores like tending the campfire, cleaning armor, etc. At least that's an option if you want to avoid the slavery issue. So he'd turn into a hireling, essentially, which wouldn't require anything other than the occasional copper or silver thrown at him for payment/maintence/etc.
zzap1990 09-10-05, 01:36 PM	he would probably talk like "yehhes ma mmaster i will do itt imee diatly" and he will probably always either call you "master" or "savor". another thing is its nice there is no minumal wage!
Callista 09-10-05, 02:12 PM	No, what's nice is that you, as an adventurer, can afford to pay him a silver a day, which is absolute riches for a goblin :P
zzap1990 09-11-05, 01:51 PM	get him super rich then send him off with all that learning in every thing you can think of and have him go be head of a group of goblins so you can call in a favor every once in a while!
panther 09-11-05, 02:36 PM	I agree with Swift Fox in agreeing with Callista. Sending the goblin back to the fights would be insensitive and evil, but so are zzap's suggestions are pretty insensitive and exploitative as well. Slavery is not only defined by the lack of a few copper pieces. He is, I believe, trying to do something GOOD, not just have a slave he occasionally throws a coin at, or trying to install a dictatorship into a tribe of goblins, so that he can use them as fodder. Lots of good people used slaves in the long history of civilization. What made those people "good?" It's hard to apply "alignment" to the real world, especially history, which is always biased and manipulated by the historian. You may see some people as "good" aligned, but many of them would fit the NE description just as well. Modern society isn't that "good" either, it just purports to be, condemning slavery even as it is clothed, fed, and powered by slavery and exploitation. I think I would get better insight into good/evil by having a conversation with a child than that waste of paper. You would, though I mean this as a compliment to children rather than an insult to the book.
The all knowing pyro 09-11-05, 04:26 PM	make sure you can speak goblin or elses your kinda screwed. or you could yet fry him up or make goblin stew.... yum....
zzap1990 09-12-05, 03:35 PM	I agree with Swift Fox in agreeing with Callista. Sending the goblin back to the fights would be insensitive and evil, but so are zzap's suggestions are pretty insensitive and exploitative as well. Slavery is not only defined by the lack of a few copper pieces. He is, I believe, trying to do something GOOD, not just have a slave he occasionally throws a coin at, or trying to install a dictatorship into a tribe of goblins, so that he can use them as fodder. What made those people "good?" It's hard to apply "alignment" to the real world, especially history, which is always biased and manipulated by the historian. You may see some people as "good" aligned, but many of them would fit the NE description just as well. Modern society isn't that "good" either, it just purports to be, condemning slavery even as it is clothed, fed, and powered by slavery and exploitation. You would, though I mean this as a compliment to children rather than an insult to the book. thanks ... i think. well about good and bad. slavery is bad because the north beat the south and they wrote the history books so if the south won we would not only have slavory (really unlikley though) but if it was still around we would not think of it as "evil" aztecs sacrifeced people to their gods which they never thought to consider "evil" but the spanierds did and wooped their collective buts and wrote the history. evil and good are dependant on what the people of the time believe so witches were considered evil in the middle ages and they thought so themselves but if they where consider good they would have been.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 09-12-05, 04:12 PM	My biggest two suggestions: 1. Talk to your DM about what you want to do outside of game time to get his/her opinion and hear his/her concerns. 2. Role play it out and treat him as a hireling until he (the goblin) has fully converted.
Sjay1 09-13-05, 04:57 AM	:rofl: Yoda had to learn from someone didn't he? :king: :bow:
zzap1990 09-13-05, 03:42 PM	My biggest two suggestions: 1. Talk to your DM about what you want to do outside of game time to get his/her opinion and hear his/her concerns. 2. Role play it out and treat him as a hireling until he (the goblin) has fully converted. this is the least evil of the choices i have heard so a lawfull good neutral good top suggestion or next one chaotic good would adapt my pondering below to make it so the slave keeping would not be so evil thanks ... i think. well about good and bad. slavery is bad because the north beat the south and they wrote the history books so if the south won we would not only have slavory (really unlikley though) but if it was still around we would not think of it as "evil" aztecs sacrifeced people to their gods which they never thought to consider "evil" but the spanierds did and wooped their collective buts and wrote the history. evil and good are dependant on what the people of the time believe so witches were considered evil in the middle ages and they thought so themselves but if they where consider good they would have been.
panther 09-13-05, 04:58 PM	thanks ... i think. well about good and bad. slavery is bad because the north beat the south and they wrote the history books so if the south won we would not only have slavory (really unlikley though) but if it was still around we would not think of it as "evil" aztecs sacrifeced people to their gods which they never thought to consider "evil" but the spanierds did and wooped their collective buts and wrote the history. evil and good are dependant on what the people of the time believe so witches were considered evil in the middle ages and they thought so themselves but if they where consider good they would have been. You're right, history is always biased. However, I don't think that slavery was condemned because the North won the Civil War; hell, most people in the North were racist and didn't care about the slaves at all, only their precious Union. History might define good and evil in a culture, but not necessarily for individuals. In the given situation, a good character might be able to justify servitude AKA slavery as "helping" or "uplifting" the goblin. But has any one asked how the GOBLIN feels? Perhaps s/he will be grateful, and want to serve the cleric, since goblins are usually prone to servitude. Perhaps s/he will be happy to be freed, but still resent the cleric's enslavement or preaching, and run off.
Tehril 09-13-05, 08:40 PM	My 2 coppers: 1. Tell the goblin that you have purchased his life and that you are willing to let him work off his debt. This allows him to work towards freedom in an attainable fashion and sets up the foundations of the relationship. It enforces that he has a responsibility and has to engage in a good work ethic. 2. Agree to a reasonable amount, equal to what you would pay someone else to do the jobs you ask of him. If you take him into dangerous situations, then he would get the same danger pay as anyone else. During this time, you provide food, lodging and clothing for him at no cost to him. This shows that you are responsible to him for his well being, which builds trust. 3. During his indentureship, take the time to train him in a skill... treat it much like an apprenticeship. Make sure he sees the value in learning what you are teaching him... if it's a craft, allow him to sell he wares for extra money that he can either keep for a rainy day or use to shorten his indentureship. 4. Near the end of his term of service, evaluate his work. If it pleases you, tell him that you are willing to hire him on at a slightly better wage than you were "paying" him during his indentureship. However, he will be responsible for his own food, lodgings and equipment. Of course, he is free to stay or leave as he wishes. Now, the training you provide could also include clerical/wizardly studies, if he has the aptitude. I would suggest teaching him the basics of your religion, if he seems interested (don't try to convert by preaching... do so by setting an example)... and then once his indentureship is finished, he has the option of actually becoming an apprentice in your magical craft... This is how I'd do it.
Judging Eagle 09-14-05, 03:11 AM	Well, at least you didn't kill this goblins tribal leader and 'became' the new cheiftan. That's happened to the PCs in the campaign I run. Completely random, but it made sense at the time. I'd suggest the indenturship as a good way to 'free' the goblin or rather, for the goblin to free himself.
Mirage_1 09-14-05, 06:58 AM	thanks ... i think. well about good and bad. slavery is bad because the north beat the south and they wrote the history books so if the south won we would not only have slavory (really unlikley though) but if it was still around we would not think of it as "evil" aztecs sacrifeced people to their gods which they never thought to consider "evil" but the spanierds did and wooped their collective buts and wrote the history. evil and good are dependant on what the people of the time believe so witches were considered evil in the middle ages and they thought so themselves but if they where consider good they would have been. tell me your joking "Witches were evil...thought so themselves, but if considered good they would have been" {sarcasm on} Wow...so if I think I am evil I am...if I think I am good I am? Need to revise the alignment for all my bad guys...most of them think of themselves as doing the right thing...guess paladin smiting won't work anymore {sarcasm off}
JD 09-14-05, 07:37 AM	The real world has subjective morality; D&D has objective morality. Try not to confuse the two.
Orion Polaris 09-14-05, 01:39 PM	Something similar happened with our party Bard and a Harpy. He thought he was buying several days rations from the mother. She thought he was really obsessed with the proportions of the daughter she was selling. Suffice to say, he now has a near constant companion that simply adores him and worships everything he does and says. She's also useful as a scout.
zzap1990 09-14-05, 03:14 PM	You're right, history is always biased. However, I don't think that slavery was condemned because the North won the Civil War; hell, most people in the North were racist and didn't care about the slaves at all, only their precious Union. History might define good and evil in a culture, but not necessarily for individuals. In the given situation, a good character might be able to justify servitude AKA slavery as "helping" or "uplifting" the goblin. But has any one asked how the GOBLIN feels? Perhaps s/he will be grateful, and want to serve the cleric, since goblins are usually prone to servitude. Perhaps s/he will be happy to be freed, but still resent the cleric's enslavement or preaching, and run off. one i used the thing im most familier with and two alot of people are still racist but we still dislike slavory and call it evil tell me your joking "Witches were evil...thought so themselves, but if considered good they would have been" {sarcasm on} Wow...so if I think I am evil I am...if I think I am good I am? Need to revise the alignment for all my bad guys...most of them think of themselves as doing the right thing...guess paladin smiting won't work anymore {sarcasm off} no i said that if the populace thought they were not they would have be so for a home rule i gues if you can use diplomacy and change someones view of stealing to its okay they would not belive that a thief was evil for stealing so they would have to make some kind of will check to believe a show alignment spell saying a thief is a chaotic evil.
Mirage_1 09-14-05, 03:53 PM	no i said that if the populace thought they were not they would have be so for a home rule i gues if you can use diplomacy and change someones view of stealing to its okay they would not belive that a thief was evil for stealing so they would have to make some kind of will check to believe a show alignment spell saying a thief is a chaotic evil. sorry misunderstood ya. When I read the "and they thought so themselves", I thought you meant the witches..guess I misunderstood...sorry for my sarcasm I have to admit though, the concept of moral relativity doesn't make sense to me. Whether something is legal or not is purty clear cut (although laws themselves can make it grey and it may be legal in one area but not another). I think (again, personal opinion) that certain things are good or evil regardless of societal views. Regardless of whether torture is legal or not does not change it from being evil. In saying that, I do recognize that societal views may make something more...understandable (ie - if society says it is good it is understandable that the individual would). And itis definity worse to do something bad in full knowledge of it being bad. But doing something evil because the society says it is ok does not make the act good.
Judging Eagle 09-14-05, 05:06 PM	Something similar happened with our party Bard and a Harpy. He thought he was buying several days rations from the mother. She thought he was really obsessed with the proportions of the daughter she was selling. Suffice to say, he now has a near constant companion that simply adores him and worships everything he does and says. She's also useful as a scout. Now THAT needs explaining. Both of those people truly failed their sense motive and diplomacy checks there. Or something?
zzap1990 09-14-05, 06:16 PM	sorry misunderstood ya. When I read the "and they thought so themselves", I thought you meant the witches..guess I misunderstood...sorry for my sarcasm I have to admit though, the concept of moral relativity doesn't make sense to me. Whether something is legal or not is purty clear cut (although laws themselves can make it grey and it may be legal in one area but not another). I think (again, personal opinion) that certain things are good or evil regardless of societal views. Regardless of whether torture is legal or not does not change it from being evil. In saying that, I do recognize that societal views may make something more...understandable (ie - if society says it is good it is understandable that the individual would). And itis definity worse to do something bad in full knowledge of it being bad. But doing something evil because the society says it is ok does not make the act good. thats okay and in DnD theres an exact code of whats right and wrong but your more likely to get in toruble for stealing in a church then your are in one of the levels of hell. in the church you will be punished while in a level of hell you would be either left alone or mayb even camended for it.
Dick Dastardly 09-14-05, 06:47 PM	tell me your joking "Witches were evil...thought so themselves, but if considered good they would have been" {sarcasm on} Wow...so if I think I am evil I am...if I think I am good I am? Need to revise the alignment for all my bad guys...most of them think of themselves as doing the right thing...guess paladin smiting won't work anymore {sarcasm off} they say every animal is born with an inherant knowledge of good and evil, but that by definition has to be very black and white, for example if germany italy and austria hungary had won world war 2 then it would be a good deed to kill a disabled person, or a jew, or any other being deemed as lesser by the nazi's, this we think of as wrong, or evil but there is much we see as evil that was written because we won the war, as they say it is a victors history, and thus a victors morality. morality does depend on the society of the civilisation, as well as the natural instinct to what is right and wrong.
jean-jacques 09-14-05, 11:18 PM	Well i have now officially started my process of conforming the goblin heh heh, well sort of anyways, my session allowed me to roleplay out a situation in which i learned the goblins name, became friends with him and offered him something to do. I bought him clothing so now you can imagine a goblin walking around in slightly larger clothing that somewhat fit him and shoes yeah shoes... i know its a somewhat funny imahe, i even offered him my bed to sleep in at the inn while i slept uncomfortably elsewhere. The goblin has been introduced to the others in my party and now seems to follow as a friend although his life as i made clear is not to be thrown away as fodder in the front of danger, the only thing is now i have nowhere to go, although im beginning the long process of converting the goblin to my god i in the end wish him to be my friend and companion as me roleplaying into being friends with the goblin in the first place surprised the dm as well as my companions, so i wish to eventually even have the goblin become a paladin yes you read right a paladin of my god a lawful good god of my creation (allowed by my dm) or at least devout worshipper of my god in some form or another. Flavor wise i think its really interesting to have picked up a goblin ally and befriended and not shunned him
Bud Green 09-15-05, 02:18 PM	My 2 coppers: 1. Tell the goblin that you have purchased his life and that you are willing to let him work off his debt. This allows him to work towards freedom in an attainable fashion and sets up the foundations of the relationship. It enforces that he has a responsibility and has to engage in a good work ethic. 2. Agree to a reasonable amount, equal to what you would pay someone else to do the jobs you ask of him. If you take him into dangerous situations, then he would get the same danger pay as anyone else. During this time, you provide food, lodging and clothing for him at no cost to him. This shows that you are responsible to him for his well being, which builds trust. 3. During his indentureship, take the time to train him in a skill... treat it much like an apprenticeship. Make sure he sees the value in learning what you are teaching him... if it's a craft, allow him to sell he wares for extra money that he can either keep for a rainy day or use to shorten his indentureship. 4. Near the end of his term of service, evaluate his work. If it pleases you, tell him that you are willing to hire him on at a slightly better wage than you were "paying" him during his indentureship. However, he will be responsible for his own food, lodgings and equipment. Of course, he is free to stay or leave as he wishes. Now, the training you provide could also include clerical/wizardly studies, if he has the aptitude. I would suggest teaching him the basics of your religion, if he seems interested (don't try to convert by preaching... do so by setting an example)... and then once his indentureship is finished, he has the option of actually becoming an apprentice in your magical craft... This is how I'd do it. IMO this is the best suggestion. It could also lead to the goblin becoming a mainstay in the campaign.
Keenath 09-15-05, 03:32 PM	The Book of Exalted Deeds has rules for conversion, if you want to use them. It's based on diplomacy, as I recall, with each check happening after a certain period with significant time each day set aside for talking to the creature in question. Now, as a pit-fighter/gladiator, the goblin probably has some heroic class levels. I think it'd be a great opportunity to convert him, then take the Leadership feat when you have time, and make him your cohort! Until then, he's just a Friendly NPC.
yellowdingo 09-16-05, 09:47 AM	Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others). It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery. Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil--and their support went beyond words. So some of America's founding fathers were evil. They essentially opposed the end of Slavery even when it was in their power to do so. Some kept slaves (they were not compelled to do so) for financial reasons which puts them in the Neutral evil alignment area. Some Kept slaves because it preserved the status quo and maintained order (Lawful evil) and a rare few purchased slaves for the purpose of destroying them (chaotic evil). A select few divested themselves of Slaves as soon as they had control over their family estates, and are therefor good people making a transition in the historical alignment of their family. Case: Thomas Jefferson-Kept slaves even after Independence, and apparently felt trapped by the ethical quandary of it but still qualifies as Lawful evil. What does this say about the Governments of the Time? The British were very Lawful Evil (although this may have had more to do with the many wealthy merchants who profited from slavery having too much pursuasion in court). -Lets say pushing towards Lawful Neutral with a driving influence of Neutral Evil. Britain was therefor Lawful Evil. The Rebellion had many alignments supporting it. Some Good and Some evil. Evil were those who kept slaves and saw an opportunity to profit from freedom from Britain. Good were those who saw freedom as an opportunity to cast off the unpalatable past of evil slavery. In the end the United States continues to be swayed by Lawful Evil- the need for order and status quo. There is regime change and America finds itself made up of assorted states where good and evil interests have sway in the federal Government. This defines Democracy as Neutral (with lawful tendancies-a balance between good and evil but pushing law and order) Slavery is Evil and the distinction is there to define the boundary between good and evil. In the old Mystaran D&D where Aligments were Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic-Slavery is Lawful and The Empire of Thyatis is therefor Lawful in Leadership and Government. As to the Cleric buying a goblin? You free him from the slavery of gladiatorial Arena, but must reach a certain quandary where even churches that converted by force were evil in their deed if not purpose. Freedom Good. Continued Servitude, Evil.
zzap1990 09-16-05, 05:21 PM	My 2 coppers: 1. Tell the goblin that you have purchased his life and that you are willing to let him work off his debt. This allows him to work towards freedom in an attainable fashion and sets up the foundations of the relationship. It enforces that he has a responsibility and has to engage in a good work ethic. 2. Agree to a reasonable amount, equal to what you would pay someone else to do the jobs you ask of him. If you take him into dangerous situations, then he would get the same danger pay as anyone else. During this time, you provide food, lodging and clothing for him at no cost to him. This shows that you are responsible to him for his well being, which builds trust. 3. During his indentureship, take the time to train him in a skill... treat it much like an apprenticeship. Make sure he sees the value in learning what you are teaching him... if it's a craft, allow him to sell he wares for extra money that he can either keep for a rainy day or use to shorten his indentureship. 4. Near the end of his term of service, evaluate his work. If it pleases you, tell him that you are willing to hire him on at a slightly better wage than you were "paying" him during his indentureship. However, he will be responsible for his own food, lodgings and equipment. Of course, he is free to stay or leave as he wishes. Now, the training you provide could also include clerical/wizardly studies, if he has the aptitude. I would suggest teaching him the basics of your religion, if he seems interested (don't try to convert by preaching... do so by setting an example)... and then once his indentureship is finished, he has the option of actually becoming an apprentice in your magical craft... This is how I'd do it. i agree with Bud Green this is the best idea