Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Torryn 02-20-04, 03:08 PM	Out of our group, I am the only one that keeps dying. We have, sould I say HAD, 3 raise dead scrolls, all used up now. On me! I'm a paladin. So I am not going to leave combat when my party members are still being attacked. I try to flank when I can, and deal as much damage as I can, but all the while supporting our combat unit as a whole. Same with my warhorse. We fight together or separately, depending on the situation. I personally am a pretty good tactician, so I can use that to my character's advantage. The other fighters don't seem to think the same way, and do everything they can not to get hit or take an attack of opportunity. That is fine, if that is thier choice for thier character, I have no problem with that - it's just not what I would do. As a result, I keep getting hit by multiple attackers at once - because they are so busy dodging, mobility-ing, reflexing, tumbling, whatever - and getting killed. What irks me the worst is, I am now 2 whole levels behind the rest of the party as a result, cause the house rule (and the official rule, too, I think) is when you get raised you lose one level. Any ideas on how to deal with this? I need a way to uphold my paladin virtue while staying alive. Cause we ain't got no more raise dead scrolls. thanks....
Beamup 02-20-04, 03:15 PM	You don't have to charge blindly ahead. You say you're trying to "support the combat unit," but it ends up getting you dead - which is a very ineffective mode of support. A paladin is in no way required to die pointlessly. If the other PCs aren't going to fight in a way that makes your current tactics workable, either convince them to work with your tactics... or adapt your tactics to theirs. Of course, if you WANT to be playing a suicidal Lawful Stupid charge-ahead-with-sword-raised type of person, that's fine. Just be aware that it WILL get you killed.
PhaedrusXY 02-20-04, 03:18 PM	There's nothing "unpaladinish" about fighting defensively. Follow the other fighter's leads, and start moving to prevent being flanked, doing all that you can to avoid attacks of opportunity, etc. Also, try to increase your defenses in general. See if you can upgrade your gear to increase your AC, start fighting defensively and/or using Expertise if you have it. And don't stand there and take round after round of full attacks from multiple enemies. If you do, it's your own fault if you die repeatedly. And losing a level is the official penalty for death, unless you get rez'd by the 9th level spell True Ressurection, which has a material requirement of 25,000 gold.
Torryn 02-20-04, 03:40 PM	OK...I don't think I was clear in what I was asking.... I am not just charging into combat. I have been playing long enough (23 yrs) to know LG does not = LStupid. I know how to fight defensively. We always have a plan of attack unless we are surprised. The other fighters never stick to the plan because they are more interested in using the skills and feats they have, oh yeah and a little fighting if I need to hit to use this feat or skill. Here is the specific fight..... The 3 of us were fighting 7 monsters (Trolls, I think, I was so annoyed I don't remember what we were fighting). Two of us had 2 on us and the strongest fighter had 3. All 3 of us had a higher initiative than the monsters. 7 of these guys should have been no trouble for us - 2 or 3 rounds max, and we were all at full health I had highest initiative, so I used a full attack to try and take both my guys down. One went down, so I took a 5 ft step so fighter #2 would have one of his guys flanked. I can do nothing else for this round. They each t5ook 1 attack and a move action - one got on his horse (quick mount) and took off 20 feet away. The other one ran - yes ran - as to not take a hit. So I am left with 5 monsters with the next initiative. They all attacked me as I was the closest. Sure, it was bad luck that 4 out of 5 hit me and one was a crit. And more bad luck that they did high damage - about 10 each. But these guys RAN AWAY, knowing that I would be left there to be attacked. And I have ridden into combat to save thier asses many times. What I am looking for is effective combat maneuvers when the rest of the party runs away and you are stuck out like the goat in Jurassic Park. Our current DM is a stickler for alignment - for everybody - and I do not want to loose my paladinhood.
DM Zoc 02-20-04, 03:47 PM	Your companions have betrayed you. Though they may not be actually evil enough for you to need to smite, they are untrustworthy enough that you, uh, shouldn't trust them. As much as I hate this response, I think that you need a new character. I mean, obviously these guys aren't of the appropriate alignment for you to get along with them; if your DM is a stickler for that kind of thing, then they should have to play whatever alignment they wrote down on their sheets to get you to go along with them.
PhaedrusXY 02-20-04, 03:48 PM	Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.There's nothing in there to prevent outright fleeing, much less making a tactical withdrawl, or moving around alot during combat to keep from getting mulched. So I'd still say start doing what they do. If they hit and run, then you better too, or you're going to wind up getting trounced. Yeah, I agree that the other PCs are being asses and leaving you high and dry, but you DON'T have to just stand there and take it. Also, if they keep acting like total jerks and showing total disinterest in the well being of yourself and your other allies, you are more than entitled to put them on your list of "People who offend your moral code." Warn them that their cowardly acts are endangering the rest of the party, and that you won't tolerate much more of them, or some such, heh.
Beamup 02-20-04, 03:52 PM	Ah. No, you didn't exactly make the situation clear. I'd say have a talk with the DM - let them get into a couple fights without you around so they can learn how ineffectual they're being. Getting killed a few times should teach them a lesson. Alternative solution: Beat them about the head and shoulders with a large sharp object. Either IC or OOC. Can be very satisfying for some people, but tends to have undesirable consequences.
Salla 02-20-04, 04:14 PM	Geez. What a buncha jerks. Next time, send them in first.
danielinthewolvesden 02-20-04, 06:16 PM	Find some new players or a new party.
thofighta 02-20-04, 06:34 PM	Hm, sounds just too much like my situation... I know what you complain about, and I'm currently playing a paladin too. Lawfull Good. Paladin of righteousness. Well, my main problem is that my party is consisting of a NL Cleric of cuthbert, currently not caring about his God, anybody else, me, or other people. He is a killhunter and will do everything to get his cleave, only thing he thinks of, and the exp of course. The second player is a CG Bard, selfconcentrated as well. Just slipped of with 8k more of the treasure pot than he deserved thanx to a magical item worth much more than we thought, and he havent yet told us. Besides, he use to play as annoying and irritating as a bard possibly COULD be! Continually speaking sylvan to my unicorn, telling it stuff about me that aint true, continually teasing and bulling with my paladin and my personal Code of behaviour. And as I tend to be good and fair in every aspect of life, like liking everyone, protecting them and so on, and I hate evil as a regular paladin do, I find this pretty annoying. And now, thnx to a :censored::censored::censored::censored: ing charm spell, I lost my mount too... Heres the battle event: I rode as quick as possible into a little village just rampaged by undeads. Hoping to find someone to rescue alive. I rode ahead (the others using plain ridehorses and got no rideskills whatsoever) of the others, and I spotted a man on the top of a little hill. I went over to him, because I figured out he might be in need of aid, etc, fast... I quickly figured out he didnt like to answer questions, and he charmed me. I showed him my friends, and the cleric charged head on trying to slay the wizard (the new man i met). Well, I tried to find the most neutral place cuz i wasnt wanting to kill anybody, and certainly not get in the way of a mad cleric with a heavy flail. So when the wizard ordered 5 skellies on the cleric I took the advantage of turning them so I could do something... Well, the cleric slaid the wizard, and both him and the bard made a :censored::censored::censored::censored: ing bloody mess about him, churning his head into stew, together with robbing and decapitating diverse bodyparts. So I left the ground before they got really started. (Because my uinicorn told me I was charmed, and i didnt believe him (cause of bad will check). So I got a bit sad and depressed. When I came back, the two of them had left without me, and my unicorn was still left. Well, I had to bury my "friend" (the charmer) so i went to sleep in a half burnt ruin intending to bury him the day after. well, in the middle of the night (i told my unicorn both could sleep, noone had to stay awake) The wizards halfbrother turned up. I heard him and awakened my unicorn. I greeted him (as my character at that time still was charmed, and had nothing against the other wizard, therefore no suspicion.) Well, i took the detect evil ability on him, found he was evil and planned to attack him when he answered the "who are you?" question of mine. But then this bastard charms me aswell. But now, I've told the unicorn we should attack him,and when I suddenly say no again, it knows im charmed by this dude too. So when it get a possibility to charge, it charges the wizard. But of course, this wizard has to have vampyric touch and be high lvled. So me, again trying to find a neutral spot (mostly because I didnt :censored::censored::censored::censored: ing want my unicorn to die...) I stood there shouting "noo, stop, nooo, quit it, stop the fighting" while not physically interupting. Then, after my unicorn had been dreained 6 lvls, blinded, wounded and used all its healing spells, I got between them, and I took it away form him, I said good bye to him. And i went 4 metres inside the ruins to take my backpack and leave. Well, when I came back, the bastard wizard had taken vampyric touch, drained my unicorn 3 lvls more... Tchatching: instant death! Unicorn= 6HD. Drained 9 HD= instant death. So there I was, without a unicorn, in :censored::censored::censored::censored: conditions, and with the rest of the party off ahead... Thnx to the bird (DM's little druid to correct DM mistakes and help PC's) the rest of the party found me too. And helped me with the funeral fire. but nobody really cared, they wasnt the slightest dissapointed and so on. The cleric even laughed when he heard the news. I mean, if that paladin had been me as a person, I would :censored::censored::censored::censored: ing told the cleric to ":censored::censored::censored::censored: of, go to hell!" And I would have left and never met them again. My problem is that they can't seem to understand that a paladin aint a coward like them, and even tho I've never been any form of mean to them, any form of letting them down or anything, they just can't seem to respect me IC... Its VERY frustrating. Like, I even rode between them and a black dragon (Gargantuan) to defend them if needed, they were :censored::censored::censored::censored: scared, but me as a paladin, cant have fear so I rode behind protecting them, but they havent EVER done a thing like that to me... NEVER, in like 7 different champaigns, where they've played like N or G all times... So, you have my symphaty Torryn. I can see why youre getting so upset. The only advice I can give is to confront the other PC's and telling them that its not that fun to die because of their cowardlyness, and if it keeps up going, you will just leave the party (making another character...) Or, tell the DM, that he needs to make the other characters less cowardly, by showing them they loose more that way... And that you don't go down in lvls each time you die, since its not your fault. PS: if you make a new character, INSIST on starting at the lvls the other persons are, otherwise its not any fun. And remind the DM, that his responsibility is to make sure you and the other PC's have a fun time! Its his most important task! And to those who disagreed with you having to play your paladin that way: There is several ways to play a paladin, but either, you are a noble PURE Good character, or you are a not pure good character. If you are not, do not friggin choose a paladin! The cleric or fighters are made for that, a paladin that doesnt have high moral code, and is PURE good wont be the perfect paladin example, and if you want to play that paladin, you have to play like torryn does. My vision of paladin is the purest good person ever, and I couldnt ever been forced to play it less good, then I wouldnt be playin a paladin after my vision, with other words, I would refused to play that kind of paladin and played a fighter instead! Long live the noble paladin and pure good!! :angel:
celloshane 02-20-04, 06:43 PM	Perhaps you could ask your DM if its possible to pick up a hireling. Someone to watch your back, or help heal you. Or, perhaps you could ask your DM to include combat situations that are less tailored to your companions sissy tactics. A couple combats in small rooms might knock it out of them. Have you tried talking to them? Perhaps if you explain that their tactics lead to your death they might be willing to change. If that's not an option maybe you could get one of them interested in using a feat that involves less running. The tactical feats from Complete Warrior might be a good place to start; the Formation Expert feat involves staying next to allies. Good luck.
Tehril 02-20-04, 09:50 PM	Have your paladin take off on a side quest. In the mean time, play a NE rogue with wealth and survival as his primary goals. Make sure he has little compunction about bartering their lives away to save his skin. If they survive and he gets away, the DM has a new BBEG and the players should have a new respect for the paladin that was always there for them. Of course, this needs to be sorted out with the DM ahead of time.
ninjarabbit 02-20-04, 10:49 PM	A) Take the leadership feat with a cleric, fighter, or paladin as your cohort. B) Knowing your 'allies', don't put yourself into situations you can't get out of, in other words pick your fights and know when to make a tactial withdraw. C) Ranged attacks are your friend, use a bow, crossbow, or thrown weapon to take out an enemy or two before you engage in melee. D) Stay on your mount whenever possible. The mount's speed will get you in and out of combat better than your two legs. E) Know your allies, expect them to fight the way they've been fighting and try to use this to your advantage. F) Use diplomacy whenever possible, also carry a sap in case one of your 'allies' doesn't know when to shut up or acts stupid.
Votan 02-20-04, 10:51 PM	Originally posted by Torryn What irks me the worst is, I am now 2 whole levels behind the rest of the party as a result, cause the house rule (and the official rule, too, I think) is when you get raised you lose one level. Any ideas on how to deal with this? I need a way to uphold my paladin virtue while staying alive. Cause we ain't got no more raise dead scrolls. Reading your description below about the fighters running and noticing that your character is now much lower level I would say that circumstances have switched. You are now the weakest front line fighter and your friends have proven to be dishonorable. Especially the one who ran. You have to ask about the alignment of people who abandon their friends to be mobbed by evil enemies. They are at best cowards, at worst evil monsters. It would be reasonable for your character to refuse to adventure with these yahoos. At the least it is completely reasonable for your character to act as the rest of the party are cowards who will abandon him at first opportunity and react appropriately. Refusing to engage vastly superior odds is a rational response from a lawful good character. Just react to encounters as if your character was unsupported. Also note that abandoning friends (when not even hurt) just to avoid the risk of being hit in combat is lookin a lot like an evil act and there is the Paladin code of conduct . . .
jvsperoni 02-20-04, 11:05 PM	Originally posted by Torryn SNIP They each t5ook 1 attack and a move action - one got on his horse (quick mount) and took off 20 feet away. The other one ran - yes ran - as to not take a hit. Wouldn't the other 2 be subject to Attacks of Opportunity for moving out of combat in this way :confused: That might keep the cowards from abandoning you. (My group uses lots of house rules, so I might be wrong about AoO.) So I am left with 5 monsters with the next initiative. They all attacked me as I was the closest. Sure, it was bad luck that 4 out of 5 hit me and one was a crit. And more bad luck that they did high damage - about 10 each. But these guys RAN AWAY, knowing that I would be left there to be attacked. And I have ridden into combat to save thier asses many times. Most paladins are honorable. "Friends" who continually abandon you should be treated in an appropriate manner. Our current DM is a stickler for alignment - for everybody - and I do not want to loose my paladinhood. The Lawful Good alignment does not require you to be a damage sponge. You are allowed to retreat from combat if it won't hurt innocents. Of course, maybe your paladin's code of honor includes "I will never back down from a fight!" (edited to fix quotes)
Korhal IV 02-20-04, 11:14 PM	You know, Thofighta, if I were a paladin and someone were attacking the other half of me (which special mounts really are), then I'd have no compunction with lopping off their head, best friends or no best friends. He's evil, and he's beating your mount. Who cares if he's your freaking father, knee the bastich in the crotch and leave.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-20-04, 11:20 PM	It seems to me that in the situation you described, you should be the only one who received any XP, even though you died. They ran, not defeating the foe. You didn't defeat all the foes either, but at least you dropped one, and they didn't drop any. If I was DM, I say you get the XP for the one you dropped before you died, and they get nothing. They keep that up, you'll catch up in levels, even if you continue to die. I might allow some divine intervention, even. For faithful service, inspite of faithless companions, a true res. is in order.
Nick Soapdish 02-20-04, 11:51 PM	Thofighta, it looks like you guys need to re-read Charm Person or your DM is playing with a much stronger version of it. Any action by the perceived friend that threatens allies - and I'd say that your mount definitely qualifies, and the rest of the party should also (otherwise, why are you with them?) - breaks the charm automatically. It just turns the character into a friend, not a slave. Even Dominate Person isn't quite that good. Any action antithetical to the character's nature (which is pretty nebulous, but I think that standing by while your trusted mount gets attacked, in the case of a paladin) allows a second save at +4.
Nick Soapdish 02-20-04, 11:56 PM	I agree with jvsperoni. Both of those characters should have been subject to AoO's unless that one swipe that they took killed all the trolls that threatened them (or in the case of the first, if he successfully tumbled onto his mount and the mount successfully tumbled away). I'm actually not sure if he had to tumble onto the horse, but running definitely incurs an attack of opportunity. (And more, since he ran, unless he's got the Run feat, he loses his dexterity bonus to AC.) So I think you're getting jobbed by the DM and the other players.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-20-04, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by Nick Soapdish Both of those characters should have been subject to AoO's unless that one swipe that they took killed all the trolls that threatened them (or in the case of the first, if he successfully tumbled onto his mount and the mount successfully tumbled away). I'm actually not sure if he had to tumble onto the horse, but running definitely incurs an attack of opportunity. (And more, since he ran, unless he's got the Run feat, he loses his dexterity bonus to AC.) So I think you're getting jobbed by the DM and the other players. If all you do is run, there is no AoO.
jvsperoni 02-21-04, 12:34 AM	Originally posted by The Master Weaver Is Warped If all you do is run, there is no AoO. Agreed. But the action in question is "They each t5ook 1 attack and a move action". It looks like this all happened in one round, and therefore AoO applies. Regardless, Torryn has at least 2 problems: players who aren't afraid to hose him, and a GM who seems to penalize him for the other players' running away. Some groups are simply not paladin-compatible. In fact, I'm playing a paladin, and it feels like the GM wants me to slay surrendered enemies. I can't free them (they reappear later in the game, bigger and badder than ever) nor drag them to jail (the evil guys' allies kill innocents while I waste time transporting the prisoners).
Tytalus 02-21-04, 12:37 AM	Sure, not relying on your comrades is the least you should do. But it does take some fun out of playing a tactically-minded character. Just rely a little less on them, until they prove themselves worthy. In game terms, hold your action until your companions have acted and take it from there. And I can only agree with the gist of other responses: as a player out-of-game, I'd talk to the other players. In-game, I'd consider leaving this group - they are not to be trusted and obviously not your friends. As a DM, I'd require an alignment shift for the other players.
drelidan7 02-21-04, 01:52 AM	The party didn't get attacks of oppurtunity because they won initiative... Orignally posted by Torryn The 3 of us were fighting 7 monsters (Trolls, I think, I was so annoyed I don't remember what we were fighting). Two of us had 2 on us and the strongest fighter had 3. All 3 of us had a higher initiative than the monsters. By the way, what a bunch of coward companions you have. It kind of reminds me of a player we have in our group (though from what I understand, it's just this character). He always looks out for himself before anyone else, and has retreated from combat several times to rejoin when the situation was less bleak. Not to mention he has the most HP and highest AC in the party.
da chicken 02-21-04, 02:37 AM	Originally posted by drelidan7 It kind of reminds me of a player we have in our group (though from what I understand, it's just this character). He always looks out for himself before anyone else, and has retreated from combat several times to rejoin when the situation was less bleak. Not to mention he has the most HP and highest AC in the party. Reminds me of one silly 1E game we played some years back. We were, technically, 10th level. However, this guy was playing a 1E bard. So he had about 15 or 16 hit dice (fighter 5/thief 6/bard 5) at this point. His AC was -8, and he had 109 hp (in 1E, mind you -- where Lolth only had 66). The guy's PC was afraid of everything. Undead, demons, devils, anything bigger than him. Anything that cast spells.... So his first round action was always flee. It was really bad since he also had boots of striding and springing. :rolleyes:
thofighta 02-21-04, 04:11 AM	Well, the main problem in the fight was that: 1. I've never ever played a wizard/sorc, so I aint got a clue about any spells. 2. My DM told me that when charmed, you would act like he was a long term friend, and he strongly dissaproved my little rivolt trying to place the Unicorn above this stinky wizard which I found all rights to do. So, I played a bit at my Unicorns part, healing him with the only heal spell I got at the moment, and Trying to get between them facing the wizard at the end, because I was playing my mount at that time too, and it was so leveldrained it couldnt harm the man. But, my DM told me that a charm spell is very strong,and that it works like this: the caster becomes your long term friend (best friend sort of thing) and he could perhaps get some problems by telling you to stay behind fighting the black gargantual dragon when I'm lvl 7... SO, if thats the thing, then I guess he was a bit right. But I cant really believe its that strong, so people? PLease give me a little brief of what Charm, Domminate, Command does, okey? Would be very nice. Would be some light point in this champaign... I'm feeling too ignored, too weak, and too useless in every aspect... Our bard beats my diplomacy... Our cleric beat my heal spells and raw strenght (war, strenght domains....) My DM kills of my mount after finally letting me have one... I'm currently having the record of having been dead but never died, and got beaten unconsious threathened by dying 3 times, falling unconsious 5 times. The bard is the only other who ONCE fell unconsious and dropped to -2 hp.... How fair could this be....!!! I've figured out I'm going to either stick with my fighters, or play a wizard/sorc next champaign... (we tend to start over and over again, mostly because the pary CANT get friends, because the two of us three always play noncaring, stupid, cowardly egoists... making it no point staying in the group. I once deserted the group because of them being too nongood for my good ranger (tho we had agreed on all having L/N/C G alignement, they chose LN and CN. So, i defected only to come back as a dwarf with their aspect of life... noncaring, stupid, nongood (not cowardly, because I hate cowards) They responded in treating me like a total stranger and someone they didnt want in their party... Even tho they both stank at hp, and ability scores, and was as lousy as ever. With my elf ranger, I did actually have the choise: shoot them down, make them make new character, or desert... I deserted. The dwarf, could very well just chopped them down, taking all they owned, wihtout any problems, but did I do it? No, did they keep on bugging me, leaving me and so on, yes... Y am i disapointed over their playstyle... They simply haven't EVER managed to do ANY noble or plain GOOD act without concern for their own wealthy and treasure!! Never ever! :(
The Master Weaver Is Warped 02-21-04, 07:36 AM	Originally posted by jvsperoni Some groups are simply not paladin-compatible. In fact, I'm playing a paladin, and it feels like the GM wants me to slay surrendered enemies. I can't free them (they reappear later in the game, bigger and badder than ever) nor drag them to jail (the evil guys' allies kill innocents while I waste time transporting the prisoners). The heavy price you pay for having ethics and morals. Everyone takes advantage of you. Makes you feel like the stuff I scrape off the bottom of my shoes, because my neighbor's dog insists my yard is a toilet. But that doesn't matter, because you have your ethics, morals, and pride. You know when you go to sleep at night you have done the right thing. The badies go to sleep happy too, though it's because they are going to play with the nice young thing they've tied to the bed. Yeah, there's probably a reason I don't play paladins. Anyway, when you play a character that is literally "holier-than-thou" you are going to have issues. Unfortunately, your issues, in this case, seems to be with the players and DM. That's where you need to go to solve the problems. Good luck.
Naktor 02-21-04, 08:36 AM	thofighta, if you don't have all the rules then check out the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). Charm Person Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw. The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. Charm Monster Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4 Target: One living creature Duration: One day/level This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size.
thofighta 02-21-04, 08:48 AM	Hm, will you say that when the wizard attacks "my other half" as I think was a nice description of my mount, will you say he breaks the charm spell then? Would that be considdered an attack on me? And would it been broken if he attacked my partymembers too? Theyre not me, as it says in the note you wrote that the spell dissapears if he attacks me..., I don't know the spells well enough to judge them. Will it be dispelled if the caster: a: attacks my other half b: attacks a partymember C: attack another friend (not tooo close)
mercurial67 02-21-04, 01:11 PM	You are getting more xp than the others, aren't you? (not because you are doing more, but because you are lower level) I can understand your dilema. Unfortunately, I'm going to say what others have said. Change your tactics. Sad to say, you are now a second line fighter. Two levels can make quite a bit of difference. You need to stay back and provide cover for the spell casters. Start using ranged attacks and let the others soak up the damage. If they are too afraid to take damage, you can't be the point person. One person as point is always a bad idea. In our old game, I started making people mad because my fighter had to switch from standing there taking full attacks to spring attacking in and out. Because of the magic he had received over the course of his career, he was a lightly armored fast mover. He also had the highest HP total. He used to sit there and soak up the damage for the group and deal the most damage as well, but there came a point where the opponents could drop him from 190 to mid teens in two rounds. He would walk away from a fight having needed TWO heals to make it through while the heavily armored paladin (with 50 fewer hps) took only a few hits. Switching tactics made fights last longer & annoyed some of the other players (because they came into the line of fire more often), but overal we were more effective since the cleric could start playing more offensively instead of manuevering to be ready with the heal spell.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-21-04, 01:53 PM	Charm Person is a 1st level spell!! It isn't Dominate Person. It's a low-level spell. You have to ask yourself, how strong is it? I personally think your DM took it too far. You have a much closer "friendship" with your sentient mount with whom you've adventured than this random person who you think you remember from a long time ago. When they start fighting, you're going to side with your mount. No 1st level spell should ever result in a permanent shift in your mindset. Once the wizard dies, you should be free from the influence (notice the duration is '1 hour/level,' NOT 'permanent' or even 'instantaneous'). You should also have a pretty high Will save (paladin, add CHA to saves), so you shouldn't fail the DC of a 1st level spell unless the opponent has unholy boosts to his spell DC (or the DM is determined you should fail it). Honestly, I'd talk to them as a group about my frustrations. Did the DM try to discourage you from playing a Paladin, and this is his way of getting back at you? If it comes to it, stop playing with them. You don't seem to be having much fun, at least not as much fun as you could be having with a video game somewhere.
Nick Soapdish 02-22-04, 02:14 AM	Originally posted by drelidan7 The party didn't get attacks of oppurtunity because they won initiative... Hmm. I guess trolls don't usually take Combat Reflexes. But for some reason, I was thinking it was later in the battle. I mean, how did they get within 5 feet of the mass of trolls without the trolls even noticing or getting an action? Did they get a surprise round or did the trolls? I had it figured as the trolls, in which case they've already acted in the battle and are not flat-footed. By the way, what a bunch of coward companions you have. It kind of reminds me of a player we have in our group (though from what I understand, it's just this character). He always looks out for himself before anyone else, and has retreated from combat several times to rejoin when the situation was less bleak. Not to mention he has the most HP and highest AC in the party. Was his name Eric? ;) (Like Eric the Cavalier in the D&D cartoon?)
Nick Soapdish 02-22-04, 02:46 AM	And here's Dominate Person from the SRD. Dominate Person Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid Duration: One day/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind. If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description). Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action. By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on. Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it. If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination. Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it. The bold part is from me. If standing aside and watching as a trusted mount gets slain isn't antithetical to the paladin's nature, I'm not sure if anything is. Note that this is the fifth level version of the spell and presumably a lot tougher than the first level Charm Person, although that boost is probably from the telepathic part. Must be awesome playing a spellcaster under your DM, thofighta.
StormKnight 02-23-04, 06:30 PM	"I will ready an action to move in and attack the monsters IF any of my allies move in and attack." How about that :) ?
Torryn 03-29-04, 03:36 PM	lots of interesting replies to this. I did have a discussion with my gang about this. We actually talked about a lot of game stuff one night for about an hour before playing. I think we all have a better understanding of what we all want out of this, and how we see each other, as players and characters. What I saw as running away, they saw a retreating to regroup. We are all seeing the same thing now. And our DM is really great. He lets us work out that kind of stuff without resorting to treating us like children (we are all between 30-40 yrs old) Our gaming sessions have been sooooo much better! We have formulated some strategies and combat maneuvers to make sure we have each other's backs.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 03-29-04, 03:50 PM	thanks for the follow up. I'm glad things are going better now.
Remnant 03-29-04, 06:22 PM	Well, my main problem is that my party is consisting of a NL Cleric of cuthbert, currently not caring about his God, anybody else, me, or other people. Cuthbert doesn't tolerate that crap, at least in traditional D&D. I would remind your DM of this in a gentle, indirect way, perhaps in the context of a general conversation about the D&D deities.
Darth K'Trava 03-29-04, 06:57 PM	Clerics in general who don't give a crap about their god usually find out sooner or later that that god won't give a crap about the cleric and stop handing out spells.... and then you suddenly have a useless cleric who can't heal people because of losing his spells. Glad things are going better, Thorryn! :D