Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HouseJaelre 07-27-07, 01:25 AM	Im currently in a campaign were i have been playing my favorite character to date, a cleric of wee jas named Louis. I took the domains law and death, but i changed the law domain to magic domain (apparently in PH2 that was added, how odd.) My character is currently level 5, and i plan on cross classing for my 6th level. The feat i plan on taking is corpsecrafter from LM, since i use summon undead alot and plan on casting animate dead to get a few servents when needed in tight situations (i am well aware my alligntment will quickly go to Lawfull Evil from Lawfull Neutral on this path, and i am willing to accept it.) I was thinking on entering the shadowcaster class from ToM, because my character, being a determined soul, would definatly love to master another form of magic, especially one as difficult as shadow magic. To account for it in game, he has studied magic some with an epic wizard, and intends to travel to the plane of shadow to further study the magic. I just wanted to know if it is worth it, because it does seem to be a rather slow arcane class, but it seems to compliment my character very well, and if I then become an assassin, it seems my spell lists will be well beyond perfect for stealth and murder. I just wanted to know if other people have played shadowcaster/clerics before and if it went off well, so i would greatly appreciate advice for other feats and maybe items to watch out for, also, how to make this go over more easily with the party (which allready seems to have a hard time w/ my character being a cleric of wee jas and running around with skellie's everywhere) Thanks for listnen =P
loaba 07-27-07, 01:33 AM	how to make this go over more easily with the party (which allready seems to have a hard time w/ my character being a cleric of wee jas and running around with skellie's everywhere) Hmm, uh, yeah... I so smell a ringer. Okay (I'll feed the troll), so they're already leery of your Evil Lite concept and now you wanna go Full-on Evil? And you wanna know how to make that go over well with your companions? :rolleyes: Again, for the millionth time, you people kill me. Dude, seriously, if they don't like what you're currently doing, then the concept you're working on now isn't going to be viewed as an improvement. But then I'm thinking you already knew that...
Yokomohoyo 07-27-07, 01:37 AM	Unfortuanatly I don't have T.O.M to verify the class you like to cross into but I like the concept and the way you are making it work together... I wish more people like you would game in my town... More roleplayers and less roll-players lol... Good luck with the concept.
Candin 07-27-07, 01:37 AM	I always wondered why playing with the undead was an evil act. I wanted to make a good lich back in the day. Something about being afraid of death makes a person evil, apparently.
loaba 07-27-07, 01:44 AM	I always wondered why playing with the undead was an evil act. Let's see, could it be due to the fact that the game has always treated the Undead as abominations and an afront to all living things? Do you think that might have just a little something to do with it? Maybe? :rolleyes: I wanted to make a good lich back in the day. Something about being afraid of death makes a person evil, apparently. Or could it be the process by which one becomes a Lich?
Salla 07-27-07, 01:49 AM	Again, for the millionth time, you people kill me. And then ANIMATE you. :)
loaba 07-27-07, 01:51 AM	And then ANIMATE you. :) :D Now that's funny.
Tiarn 07-27-07, 01:53 AM	I always wondered why playing with the undead was an evil act. I wanted to make a good lich back in the day. Something about being afraid of death makes a person evil, apparently. Playing with undead has nothing to do with it. You can go kicking it with undead all day and not be evil. (though you'll probably smell bad) To create undead you have to channel evil magic (that's why the spell has a "[evil]" next to the school.) and channeling evil magic makes a person evil. (or at least not good) "Evil-lite." He he...
Jenny With The Lantern 07-27-07, 01:54 AM	There is a 'good lich' out there somewhere (elven protector of their most secret secrets), just no clue where (I'm sure someone could provide the link?). The fact that undead are mostly considered evil is because they mostly use negative energy to power themselves and hate the living. Anyway, nice derail :P HouseJaelre, it really depends on HOW you play the character and what your party consists of. If you use your skeletons to help your party and the people in town, I would say they could have little against that. Why do they dislike you at the moment? Does the DM know of your plans? What's his/her reaction?
Tiarn 07-27-07, 01:56 AM	There is a 'good lich' out there somewhere (elven protector of their most secret secrets), just no clue where (I'm sure someone could provide the link?).... It's in Monsters of Faerun. :)
loaba 07-27-07, 01:59 AM	Moving forward with the current thread derailment, may I just say that an Elven Lich, given the typical viewpoint Elves have of the Undead, seems more than a little like an oxymoron. I mean c'mon, in every edition of the game, Elves simply can't stand the idea of Undead.
Tiarn 07-27-07, 02:04 AM	I'd agree with you there, it's like having a drow priestess want to start a soup-kitchen for the down-on-their-luck. But back to the OP: I would imagine, though full of flavor, your concept won't give you much power. You're talking about multiclassing two full-spellcasters. That's going to leave you way behind in spell acquisition. But if you're willing to deal with that then I say by all means, go for it. Though you shouldn't be surprised when the world reacts in fear to your undead. They are, after all, abominations to nature. ;)
loaba 07-27-07, 02:09 AM	I'd agree with you there, it's like having a drow priestess want to start a soup-kitchen for the down-on-their-luck. Well, if she poisoned the soup... Though you shouldn't be surprised when the world reacts in fear to your undead. They are, after all, abominations to nature. ;) I think that's probably the least of his worries. :D The build doesn't look bad, but if the mechanical need isn't there, then that means he really is focusing on the flavor, which is Evil in this case. Why would you do that? You know your companions are already uneasy around you.
gojumamoru 07-27-07, 02:02 PM	Im currently in a campaign were i have been playing my favorite character to date, a cleric of wee jas named Louis. I took the domains law and death, but i changed the law domain to magic domain (apparently in PH2 that was added, how odd.) My character is currently level 5, and i plan on cross classing for my 6th level. The feat i plan on taking is corpsecrafter from LM, since i use summon undead alot and plan on casting animate dead to get a few servents when needed in tight situations (i am well aware my alligntment will quickly go to Lawfull Evil from Lawfull Neutral on this path, and i am willing to accept it.) I was thinking on entering the shadowcaster class from ToM, because my character, being a determined soul, would definatly love to master another form of magic, especially one as difficult as shadow magic. To account for it in game, he has studied magic some with an epic wizard, and intends to travel to the plane of shadow to further study the magic. I just wanted to know if it is worth it, because it does seem to be a rather slow arcane class, but it seems to compliment my character very well, and if I then become an assassin, it seems my spell lists will be well beyond perfect for stealth and murder. I just wanted to know if other people have played shadowcaster/clerics before and if it went off well, so i would greatly appreciate advice for other feats and maybe items to watch out for, also, how to make this go over more easily with the party (which allready seems to have a hard time w/ my character being a cleric of wee jas and running around with skellie's everywhere) Thanks for listnen =P Sorry for the direction this thread has gone so far. I'm not sure why people post at all when they don't want to anwser the question. I don't have any books with me but the shadowcaster is the one in that book with 3 unique types of casters? I really like the class but multi classing casters always runs into trouble. The shadowcaster can be alot like a sorc. If anything it might help you travel in a more neutral path compaired to a evil priest. Of course shadow casters don't get any undead related spells so it wont really work with the necromancer concept. However for flavor the idea is very nice. You could also have your change to shadow caster shift you slightly away from evil as the game goes on. Shadow has always been some what neutral in my mind. Cold uncaring mysterious but not evil. You walk that line between light and dark. You understand darkness but do you know light? Also work with your DM to look over the shadow casters spells because many of them are too weak or too strong in my opinion. Other than that this might be a chance for him to consider his path in life. Yes being a necromancer is a fast path to power but this guy strikes me as someone who wants to learn and grow. Seeking out dark knowledge anywhere he can find it. Maybe his master asks him to give up the necromancy to take up the shadows? Just a few thoughts I would put them into paragraphs but I dont have the time for that right now :). Of course if I'm thinking of the wrong shadowcaster then dont mind me.
HouseJaelre 07-28-07, 03:27 PM	Ahh ok, now i'll throw in more specifics, considering i posted the thread at 3am. Most of the party is neutral, only one cleric of st cuthbert who shares an allignment with mine, and in, and out of game, we learned to, while "disliking" eachothers methods, use them to also compliment eachother, kinda like mashing good and evil through neutrality to make a powerfull force. But the best part is, we have a druid. Now we too get along in a "your buisness is your own" matter, but as we both progress, there is only more and more friction. Other players however, like our hexblade, dragon shaman, and dex-based fighter, all have no problem. But i orgionaly made this character to serve as the in-party confilct, to try something new. Now then, his backstory was that he was training to become a cleric of pelor, when his mother was tragically murdered, and ever since then, he has "shunned the light" and searched more for deeper, darker secrets of power, which led him to Wee Jas, but he also respects all other dieties (even pelor) and carries around holy signets for every diety he encounters (currently has pelor, wee jas, obad-hai, gruumsh and dire inca) Oh and about lich's and undead, the BoVD outright says, summoning/creating the undead is the most evil act one can commit because it creates an unbalance in positive/negative energy in the material plane by adding too much negative, and in the libris mortis (and so i guess another MM) it gives a variant for a good lich, saying that they viewed immortality as a way to "fight fire with fire" so to say
HouseJaelre 07-28-07, 03:34 PM	Of course if I'm thinking of the wrong shadowcaster then dont mind me. You might be, you might not, luckily you used your limited understanding vaugly and still helped. The shadow caster, is basically a sorcerer who channels arcana from the plane of shadow instead of the regular magic weave. He gains spells very slowly however (only like 1 a level), and the spells are very focused (stealth, cold, and using shadows to "bend" reality to his advantage).
MagickHobo 07-28-07, 05:18 PM	(i am well aware my alligntment will quickly go to Lawfull Evil from Lawfull Neutral on this path, and i am willing to accept it.) Well, I think you could still come out neutral. Sure, creating undead is evil (make 3 skeletons, gain 3 Darkside points). BUT! By using the undead in the cause of good, or at least not-baby-eating-evil purposes, you can make up for it (use the skeletons to save your St. Cuthbert friend's life, gain 3 light-side points). However, a TRULY good person would have figured out a way to do the good things without any "evil" involvement. So you break even. As for your party, if they're neutral and you can convince your DM that you'll stay neutral, then there should be no problem. Sure, Zombiez are gross, but if you just use them like tools to get the job done they should be tolerant. As for your shadowcaster question, never played one. Thought about it, but the flavor text at that opening chapter reminded me too much of some "Vampire: The Pompousness" stuff so i skipped over to Truenaming, which is vera kewl.
Novem 07-28-07, 05:47 PM	Let's see, could it be due to the fact that the game has always treated the Undead as abominations and an afront to all living things? Do you think that might have just a little something to do with it? Maybe? :rolleyes: Or could it be the process by which one becomes a Lich? Oh, so now it's evil just because people say so? Or because it used to be considered thus? Why don't we question why it was considered evil in the first place? In my games, it's not.
loaba 07-29-07, 04:25 AM	Oh, so now it's evil just because people say so? By "people", you mean the folks who designed the game. I'd say that's pretty cut and dried. If you want to change to game, go for it. That doesn't change the fact that the game assumes that the creation and use of Undead is an Evil act. Or because it used to be considered thus? Correction, it's not that the creation of Undead used to be Evil, that's a basic tenant of the game that has remained unchanged since 1st Edition. Why don't we question why it was considered evil in the first place? In my games, it's not. And that's a change you've elected to make for YOUR game.
Tiarn 07-29-07, 05:03 AM	...Why don't we question why it was considered evil in the first place?... :rolleyes: There's not much need to. It uses evil magic from a plane of negative energy to cheat death. Where is the question? This is sort of like those "greater good" arguments. Yes, you could raise some undead and use them for just purposes. But the act of raising them is evil, what you do afterward isn't the point. Just like it isn't the point that using blasphemy to kill a warlord will save more people in the end. Using the spell is what makes it an evil act.