Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NineInchNall 06-18-05, 04:57 PM	:) No, the subject isn't aimed at anyone on this board :) Okay, so last night I had one of my weekly sessions, and wouldn't you know it, I got called a munchkin at least five separate times. Once for expressing an interest in using charm person rather than slowly interrogating a prisoner. Once for the fact that I have my sorcerer's spells all planned out. Once for playing a monster race in another game (which character is actually the weakest in that particular group). Once for the fact that I have and read the splatbooks. Once for noting that in the particular campaign setting we were playing I could get a straight halfling sorcerer to have a guaranteed Diplomacy check of 60 (enough to take an encounter from Hostile to Helpful as a full-round action) by level 9 with no non-core feats and only one cheap magic item. Once for saying that my character's solution to diplomatic situations once he reaches 16th level will probably be mass charm monster. :banghead: Now, they're all entitle to their opinions, and I usually don't care whether they call me a munchkin, because the DM doesn't think I'm doing anything out of line. However, these very same people who call me a munchkin in a derogatory way consistently come to me with questions about what feats they should take, where they should put their skill points, what spells they should prepare, what stats they should buy, even what PrCs to take and when to jump out of them, and whatnot. I may not be Bertrand Russell's reincarnation, but I think I can recognize hypocrisy when I see it, and that behaviour stinks of it. :rant: It really infuriates me to have to deal with being labeled a munchkin. My sorcerer can't even learn evocations; he's specializing in summoning magic, for Pete's sake! :banghead: My characters are consistently the weakest in our games, due to their being very backloaded, yet because I know how to make them otherwise, I'm a munchkin? I think not. Has anyone else had similar experiences and successfully dealt with them in a manner that stopped the term "munchkin" from being tossed in your face everytime you try to do something effective? It seems just, well, wrong. :weep: I apologize for the long rant. I don't know when to stop sometimes. :embarrass
Radijs 06-18-05, 05:10 PM	Thats not munchkin. Thats just simply smart. Munchkin-like behaviour is trying to make your character uber-powerful with things such as min-maxing, looking through all the DND books trying to find the best combination in feats, skills, magic and other things. You used a good tactic. Why bother to interrogate when that guy can be your new best friend?
LCD2YOU 06-18-05, 05:22 PM	<sarcasm=on>Weak willed and wussie? Yes. After all, why use a charm spell when a torch to the crotch would give the same result? Simple things that make it easy are the weakling's way out of a situation. Real men with real sloped foreheads and protruding brows, well we smash! Smash things! If they no talk, we SMASH! SMASH THINGS!<sarcasm=off> No, munchkinning out is using every rule to your advantage, especially when one conveniently "forgets" the down side of the choices. I don't think you munchkinned at all.
Zalak 06-18-05, 05:36 PM	Definitely not munchkined. The other players are just impatient to ideas that use the rules instead of the obvious answer. To answer your question, people at my table never call me a munchkin necause I'm the only one who ever makes a character good for anything other then combat.
snowlynx 06-18-05, 05:37 PM	However, these very same people who call me a munchkin in a derogatory way consistently come to me with questions about what feats they should take, where they should put their skill points, what spells they should prepare, what stats they should buy, even what PrCs to take and when to jump out of them, and whatnot. Mmph...you might want to find out why they feel you're a munchkin; even if you really aren't, their reason can tell you how to solve the issue. My idea: It sounds like your players might want to do this because they feel underpowered, and believe you're using other books they don't have to power yourself up. Solution: I might suggest making sure they have access to your books/ the splotbooks if you want to quell this, which might mean letting them borrow a book if neccesary. Another idea for why they might feel the way they do: Stuff you're saying out of game is making you look more like a munchkin then you are. Solution: Don't talk about how to powergame, even if you'd never do it.
Veton 06-18-05, 05:39 PM	Okay, so last night I had one of my weekly sessions, and wouldn't you know it, I got called a munchkin at least five separate times. I do sympthaise with you. My current DM often calls me a min/maxer, despite the fact that when creating his character in my campaign he spent 10 minutes debating if to have a Small trident for his two weapon fighting character because it would allow him to hit whatever % of the time and deal 3.485849 (made up, I didn't bother to remember it) more damage. He even took out a calculator to figure it out :P Once for expressing an interest in using charm person rather than slowly interrogating a prisoner. My response would be, "So you would rather I torture a prisoner, an Evil act, instead of using some magic to get the information out of him without harm?" Once for noting that in the particular campaign setting we were playing I could get a straight halfling sorcerer to have a guaranteed Diplomacy check of 60 (enough to take an encounter from Hostile to Helpful as a full-round action) by level 9 with no non-core feats and only one cheap magic item. :uh-huh: Can I ask just how that's going to be possible? Once for saying that my character's solution to diplomatic situations once he reaches 16th level will probably be mass charm monster. Again, mention how it's better to temporarily trick someone rather then just kill them. Now, they're all entitle to their opinions, and I usually don't care whether they call me a munchkin, because the DM doesn't think I'm doing anything out of line. However, these very same people who call me a munchkin in a derogatory way consistently come to me with questions about what feats they should take, where they should put their skill points, what spells they should prepare, what stats they should buy, even what PrCs to take and when to jump out of them, and whatnot. I may not be Bertrand Russell's reincarnation, but I think I can recognize hypocrisy when I see it, and that behaviour stinks of it. If it really annoys you, just say, "Well, I'm a munchkin, right? You guys certainly don't want my help in making your characters then." Or mention how they're being a "munchkin" if they decide to plan out their character's skill point, feats, abilities, etc. ;)
NineInchNall 06-18-05, 06:05 PM	To all, thanks for the vindication. I feel a little bit more confident and all now. Thanks. :) :uh-huh: Can I ask just how that's going to be possible? Okay, well, there actually was one non-core feat I chose. Nymph's Kiss from the BoED. Whoops. Well, even without that it should be easy to afford, say a +4 Charisma cloak or just wait until 11th level. The story with the races in the Dawnforge campaign setting is that they basically are more archetypal (read powerful) versions of the normal races, because the thing is set in a time when the great nations are just beginning to come into being. So what happens is through 10th level they gain various stat boosts and special abilities as they level in addition to whatever they gain from their classes. A halfling gets a +6 to Charisma by 9th, and he can pick up this neat little ability called Good First Impression that allows him to automatically get a 20 on his first Diplomacy check to influence a new NPC. 9th level Charisma (natural): 24 Diplomacy bonuses: +12 ranks +7 Charisma +2 Negotiator +2 synergy (bluff) +2 synergy (knowledge (nobility & royalty)) +2 synergy (sense motive) +3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) +2 racial (Fast Learner racial talent) +3 talent (Talent Skills) +3 competence (Circlet of Persuasion -- 4,500 gp) +2 circumstance (Nymph's Kiss -- Book of Exalted Deeds) -------- +40 Total Automatic 20 + 40 = 60. So we get a character that at 9th level doesn't have to fight when going through typical dungeons. If it really annoys you, just say, "Well, I'm a munchkin, right? You guys certainly don't want my help in making your characters then." Or mention how they're being a "munchkin" if they decide to plan out their character's skill point, feats, abilities, etc. ;) You know, that's a really great idea. :plotting: I'd like to see how they react to that. Mmph...you might want to find out why they feel you're a munchkin; even if you really aren't, their reason can tell you how to solve the issue. My idea: It sounds like your players might want to do this because they feel underpowered, and believe you're using other books they don't have to power yourself up. Solution: I might suggest making sure they have access to your books/ the splotbooks if you want to quell this, which might mean letting them borrow a book if neccesary. Another idea for why they might feel the way they do: Stuff you're saying out of game is making you look more like a munchkin then you are. Solution: Don't talk about how to powergame, even if you'd never do it. I'll be sure to ask them. I actually do let them use my books. Normally I bring them with me when we game at someone else's place. I let them borrow my books. Some of them buy these things even more compulsively than I do. I'm not the one in my group who grabbed a copy of the book of truly dumb (Libris Mortis). *sigh* Yeah. I guess I'll pretty much just have to shut up about such things. It's just so damn amusing to picture a halfling walking through a dungeon, recruiting its inhabitants as he goes. :tantrum: So no more talk of high level until we're there. :weep:
Molitor 06-18-05, 06:43 PM	Are these people you play with friends of yours? If not, then why do you care what they say? Personally I take it as a complement to be called a min/maxer, powergamer, or munchkin. Find or create a new gaming group. Simple..........
snowlynx 06-18-05, 07:07 PM	Yeah. I guess I'll pretty much just have to shut up about such things. It's just so damn amusing to picture a halfling walking through a dungeon, recruiting its inhabitants as he goes. :tantrum: So no more talk of high level until we're there. I understand in part, but I also know of a player in my group that used to threaten other PCs (yes, our characters, not us) by sugggesting he wants to trap us with X spell and then use 'delayed' spells that will go off all at once, instantly killing whomever he pleases. I'm sure he finds it amusing, but it's always sounding to me as if he's challenging the other players, so I finally asked him to stop and explained why it was annoying me. (Mostly, I felt like he was trying to intimidate the players into adjusting the actions of the characters, since he most often spoke of using such abilities 'when we did something he didn't like.') He stopped, and the game runs much better now. As for the book part, I am glad to hear it. I suppose they just haven't read into the books much and find it frustrating that you have.
Lacloix 06-18-05, 07:09 PM	Okay, so last night I had one of my weekly sessions, and wouldn't you know it, I got called a munchkin at least five separate times. I think your group is just jealous because you are way more intelligent then they are. Automatic 20 + 40 = 60. So we get a character that at 9th level doesn't have to fight when going through typical dungeons. That is just brilliant. I've never really liked dungeon crawls, and now you've found a way around them. :D
Rathje 06-18-05, 08:52 PM	I agree with the suggestion of not helping them plan their characters. That occurred to me as soon as you mentioned it in your first post. As for the thing of calling them min/maxers, do it for even obvious things. "Your Wizard is taking Concentration? Geez, that skill is too useful, you freaking munchkin." "Why are you multi-classing? Munchkin." "Whaddya' mean, barq's has bite? Munchkin."
Ut-Napishtim 06-18-05, 10:41 PM	My sorcerer can't even learn evocations; he's specializing in summoning magic, for Pete's sake! I thouht only Wizards could specialize?
Veton 06-18-05, 11:05 PM	I thouht only Wizards could specialize? I think he means that his Sorcerer selects summoning spells, but it could be a house rule as well. The story with the races in the Dawnforge campaign setting is that they basically are more archetypal (read powerful) versions of the normal races, because the thing is set in a time when the great nations are just beginning to come into being. So what happens is through 10th level they gain various stat boosts and special abilities as they level in addition to whatever they gain from their classes. A halfling gets a +6 to Charisma by 9th, and he can pick up this neat little ability called Good First Impression that allows him to automatically get a 20 on his first Diplomacy check to influence a new NPC. 9th level Charisma (natural): 24 Diplomacy bonuses: +12 ranks +7 Charisma +2 Negotiator +2 synergy (bluff) +2 synergy (knowledge (nobility & royalty)) +2 synergy (sense motive) +3 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) +2 racial (Fast Learner racial talent) +3 talent (Talent Skills) +3 competence (Circlet of Persuasion -- 4,500 gp) +2 circumstance (Nymph's Kiss -- Book of Exalted Deeds) -------- +40 Total Automatic 20 + 40 = 60. So we get a character that at 9th level doesn't have to fight when going through typical dungeons. :mymy: I see. Personally, I would apply logic and say it isn't possible to turn someone from hostile (wanting to attack/kill you) to helpful (wanting to give you assistance) in just six seconds. Did you get this checked with your DM?
Always-Late 06-18-05, 11:24 PM	Diplomacy takes a minute of interaction. If they start shooting, diplomacy is over.
wolf_mage 06-19-05, 12:23 AM	Diplomacy takes a minute of interaction. If they start shooting, diplomacy is over. See, sometimes it's a good idea to look up the rules in question instead of assuming someone could have made an extremely obvious error. Action: Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check. You know, to avoid looking silly.
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 12:25 AM	"Whaddya' mean, barq's has bite? Munchkin." Wow. That's the funniest thing I've read all week. :rofl: I thouht only Wizards could specialize? It's a house rule. My DM thought it even more appropriate for sorcerers to specialize than wizards, so he and I made rules for it.
was_fired 06-19-05, 12:38 AM	To be honest the only munchy thing you mentioned was the diplomacy skill. They really didn't think that one out when they put it in the game.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-19-05, 12:41 AM	People do need to get there terms right. Munchkins cheat. Munchkins are like rogues. They like the rules when they can use them to their advantage. Powergamers are like paladins. They like the rules. The rules are good. You shouldn't tamper with the rules for personal gain, and you should use them to defend the weak. Rules lawers are like fighters. They skip that whole 'good' and 'defend the weak' as a rule, though exceptions occur. Rules lawyers focus on the art of the rule, and all it's possible applications. A good powergamer is often a benign or converted rules lawyer.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-19-05, 01:41 AM	*snip* My sorcerer can't even learn evocations; he's specializing in summoning magic, for Pete's sake! :banghead: *snip* Unless that's a purely RP decision (if so, I commend you for it), a sorcerer may not specialize in a school of magic. Sure, he could learn spells all from the same school, but he won't gain any mechanical benefit from it. Could also be a house rule. Just pointing it out, though.
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 01:59 AM	Yeah, it's also amazing how many people will cry munchkin when you decide to specialize in tripping. "It's unfair to trip a guy and then use your attack of opportunity to trip him again when he tries to stand." :headexplo In other words, there seems to be a large group of people who feel that anything that isn't BASH, or ZAP, or TWANG isn't kosher. :rolleyes: *sigh* My little brother caught a bunch of flak for making a Lasher/Dervish whip master who thinks like a halfling 'cause he was raised by a traveling halfling circus. Tsk, tsk. Munchkins cheat. Munchkins are like rogues. They like the rules when they can use them to their advantage. Powergamers are like paladins. They like the rules. The rules are good. You shouldn't tamper with the rules for personal gain, and you should use them to defend the weak. Rules lawyers are like fighters. They skip that whole 'good' and 'defend the weak' as a rule, though exceptions occur. Rules lawyers focus on the art of the rule, and all its possible applications. Hey, I really like those defs. Mind if I add them to my signature? :tiphat:
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 02:05 AM	Unless that's a purely RP decision (if so, I commend you for it), a sorcerer may not specialize in a school of magic. Sure, he could learn spells all from the same school, but he won't gain any mechanical benefit from it. Could also be a house rule. Just pointing it out, though. 'Tis a house rule. It's a strange experience playing a spellcaster whose only first level spells so far are charm person, summon monster I, and aspect of the wolf.* Being the scout character as a first level sorcerer is really, um, frightening? Yeah. "Hey, you can turn into a wolf. That's a good disguise. You go scout out the goblin encampment." ":looloo: Whuh? Buh? Um ..." *From Dragon. It's basically a polymorph into a normal wolf. It's highly flavorful. I've gotten one of the PCs and several NPCs to think I'm a wolf changeling, like one of the captains of the nation's border guard. :D
20goingon1232 06-19-05, 05:23 AM	I feel your pain. I have played two characters with this DM, and another in a game we are both in. Two in WoD and one in DnD. The fist WoD on is a Mage in a multi Werewolf/Vamp/Mage campaign as a newbie with a bunch of players that have up to 6th Gen Vampires equivalents as characters. This character doesn't use magic and relies on his physical prowess to get him out of trouble (not a good idea with wolves and vamps inthe mix, but that is the character concept). The second WoD is a Navy Seal in a Mage-like campaign (he doesn't believe in magic and so don't use it as a general rule). The DnD character is a Ftr2/Sorc6 with absolutely no metamagic or magic related feats due to a stupid DM changing his mind halfway. The DM was a player in this campaign and plays a tweaked out Bard5/Ftr2/Barb1 that has all of the party's magical staff and wands (he grabs them first because his character has a low Wisdom and the guy's excuse was that his character is curious....). He called me a powergaming munchkin. Has been calling me that for the last few months and punishing me in game for it until I finally got so sick of it, I told him to go screw himself and left his game. Take my advice. Tell them to go jump off a tall cliff and leave. DnD is supposed to be fun, not getting an ulcer listening to control freaks or morons that think they are the best DM/roleplayer in the world and all of you suck.
MT-296 "Dagger" 06-19-05, 07:09 AM	Why not show your group a real munchkin build? That should shut them up. Bow before the UberER Charger! http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5769497 The Hulking Hurler! http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565 These things can do over 3000 damage in ONE attack. I'll see if I can't dig up the H.I.V.E build. Where you can get your caster level into the 4 thousands. If your a munchkin, Then Im a monkeys uncle.
Nom 06-19-05, 07:56 AM	Once for expressing an interest in using charm person rather than slowly interrogating a prisoner.A good idea! Once for the fact that I have my sorcerer's spells all planned out.Well, that shows a rather keen interest in the mechanics of your character, but isn't trying to bend the rules to your advantage. Once for playing a monster race in another game (which character is actually the weakest in that particular group).Can be anywhere from creative to munchy, depending on the 'why' and 'how'. "I wanna play <exotic race> because it's really powerful" is certainly treading the path to munchkinism. "I wonder what the world is like from a kobold's perspective" is not. Once for the fact that I have and read the splatbooks.I think we've already established that you have a keen interest in mechanics. Once for noting that in the particular campaign setting we were playing I could get a straight halfling sorcerer to have a guaranteed Diplomacy check of 60 (enough to take an encounter from Hostile to Helpful as a full-round action) by level 9 with no non-core feats and only one cheap magic item.That sort of comment certainly has overtones of munchiness. I'm not saying that asking "how broken can I make this if I really try?" is automatically munchkin, but I as a DM wouldn't really appreciate my players exploring such avenues. Though if WotC would ask it a little more often it would improve the quality of their splatbooks. Once for saying that my character's solution to diplomatic situations once he reaches 16th level will probably be mass charm monster.That verges on bragging about how mechanically kewl and powerful your character is going to be "once he gets a few more levels", which is a rather munchkin trait. I don't understand the objection to charm monster, but for the rest it might be possible that your fellow players are getting annoyed with your constant delving into the rules and discussion of what your character could do in the future. "I think I'd like my wizard to become a pyromancer with a mastery of fire" is planning character development. "When my 4th level wizard reaches 9th level and gains this feat and this ability he'll be able to deal an incredible 67 points of damage with a fireball with no saving throw!" (for example) is munchkin thinking. While they may appreciate your mechanical knowledge when it comes to levelling up and short term stuff, you may find that they aren't really excited about pushing the limits and don't appreciate if you keep bringing it up. Obviously, I'm not there and only have your post to go on, but perhaps if you make fewer comments about game mechanics that aren't relevant to the present state of the game they might not feel the need to call you a munchkin. Perception can be everything.
genetic_jackhammer 06-19-05, 08:38 AM	ok got a quick question, it seems like i have been called a munchkin as of late i dont know it its sacasim ( im better at being a smart ass ), im playing a war forged in a forgotten realms game.. i have fair stats, 19str ( d.m gave me a minor cloak of bull str +2) con 18, dex 15, Int 15, wis 10, cha 8.. im a 3rd lvl fighter. and so far my feats all reflex a player focused on fighting. nothing major. but anyways, the d.m sayed if there was something we wanted that we could work something out. i was looking threw the miniature hand book, and seen the warhulk prestege class, its a cool class( all but the losing all ranks in int, chr, wis, based skills) and the fact thats its meant for large creatures. to me it doesnt seem like that much of a streach for a war forged to take this class. and so far it seems to fit the way i play my char. am I a munchkin? p.s i love chars with high str. if it isnt obvious.
TinManFan 06-19-05, 09:37 AM	Ok, that 60 score. Not munchkined enough. need 2 +10 competence/Insite bonus item to up that a lil. They're only 1000 gold a pop. :D Now as for your friends, the answer seems obvious. Explain to them that you are playing a character, not a set of numbers. Then break out the feral 4 headed half fey Sylph. That'll learn 'em.
TinManFan 06-19-05, 09:40 AM	Only bad thing about War Hulk is that if you need BAB for another PrC for after that, yer screwed. Remember it's +2 Str is there to A Make them too frikkin strong, and B COunteract the fact they have no BAB progression. So be careful about meeting pre-reqs.
genetic_jackhammer 06-19-05, 09:57 AM	thanks for the info tinman. so do i sound like i've gone "munchkin"?? i think once i get the lvls in warhulk im going to go back to the regular fighter class. do you know of any magic items that will help me since i will no longer have ranks in listen, or spot?? take it easy.. "Oi" SKREWDRIVER :D
TinManFan 06-19-05, 10:07 AM	it's called "Hanging out with people who do". Intimidate, Run, Climb, Jump and Swim. WHo needs those skills that'll save yer life? Come on. It says you're treated as having no ranks in the skill. However, not sure if you're allowed to use items that up it, like the above mentioned +10 items...
Ut-Napishtim 06-19-05, 11:44 AM	It's a house rule. My DM thought it even more appropriate for sorcerers to specialize than wizards, so he and I made rules for it. Personally I wouldn't agree since Sorcerer's don't actually really study their magic as intensively as Wizard's do as it's an inborn thing for them. The academic approach a Wizard uses lends itself more readily to specialization than the free-wheeling spell-slinging of the Sorcerer IMHO. That might be part of the problem there. Generally speaking most people regard tinkering with the rules to avoid such restrictions to be somewhat 'munchkiny' most of the time. Nobody here has expressed a problem with it, but your group might be harboring some resentment about what they may see as 'special treatment' or 'rules bending' on behalf of your character that theirs aren't getting. Since we've only got your side of the story here, there could be other 'special considerations' you're getting from the DM to make your character build more potent. We don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised since for every cockroach you see on the countertop there are usually a dozen more hiding in the walls. I'd reccomend discussing this and any other 'house rules' with the other players, as well as the other points you've raised here to get to the root of what's bothering them and get things back on track. They may just be jealous of the special treatment and want some rules bent for their characters too in the interest of fairness. They might be asking you for character advice in an attempt to 'keep up' with your guy who consistently outperforms theirs. Whatever it is you won't find out by talking to us about it.
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 02:43 PM	Personally I wouldn't agree since Sorcerer's don't actually really study their magic as intensively as Wizard's do as it's an inborn thing for them. The academic approach a Wizard uses lends itself more readily to specialization than the free-wheeling spell-slinging of the Sorcerer IMHO. My DM sees it more as a reflection of the sorcerer's natural, innate take on spellcasting. The character has a certain set of talents, etc. It seems just as likely that a sorcerer would have an inborn talent for blasting things (Evocation) while being unable to wrap his mind around making things (Conjuration) and vice versa. Since we've only got your side of the story here, there could be other 'special considerations' you're getting from the DM to make your character build more potent. ... ... They might be asking you for character advice in an attempt to 'keep up' with your guy who consistently outperforms theirs. ... I'm playing a sorcerer. At 2nd level. I think I may have taken out, say two enemies over the course of our adventures so far. The rest of the party doesn't even have to roll for damage when they hit goblins and orcs to kill them. I sit around, hiding under my horse, up in a tree, behind a bush, or whatever because my character's so NOT a pimp right now. All he can do in combat is cast a string of summoned fiendish dire rats. And if you think that's a worthwhile contribution, well ... I don't understand the objection to charm monster, but for the rest it might be possible that your fellow players are getting annoyed with your constant delving into the rules and discussion of what your character could do in the future. "I think I'd like my wizard to become a pyromancer with a mastery of fire" is planning character development. "When my 4th level wizard reaches 9th level and gains this feat and this ability he'll be able to deal an incredible 67 points of damage with a fireball with no saving throw!" (for example) is munchkin thinking. While they may appreciate your mechanical knowledge when it comes to levelling up and short term stuff, you may find that they aren't really excited about pushing the limits and don't appreciate if you keep bringing it up. Hmm. My first response is that I'm a 2nd level sorcerer. All I have to talk about is in the future. I certainly can't do Jack right now. My second is that I don't see the munchiness in your two examples. One is the general, one is the specific. So munchkin = specificity? :confused: I've actually noted this same kind of example many many times on the 'net. "I'd like to use a shotgun," versus, "I'd like to use THAT shotgun." Obviously the second is munchkin. :looloo: My third is that they actually ask me to help plan their characters out entirely. So ... I dunno. From now on I'm witholding my advice until I get some 'spect. Oh, yes. And there will be some, "What do you mean Barq's has bite? Munchkin," going on. :D
RogerWilco 06-19-05, 03:03 PM	I haven't read everything, but: You are not a munchkin, you are a min/max'er and have maxed out on the diplomacy thing. I like your build, but you should make your fellow players aware that your min/max'ing has a lot of downsides as well, like the inability to cast evocation spells.
Talinna 06-19-05, 03:37 PM	your not a munchie (except maybe to a great wyrm)... you're just a number cruncher... our dm's husband is one of those mixed with a slight bit of meta (he doesn't mean to, and honestly trys to catch himself) so what if you like reading the books and knowning your options, I find it useful as I haven't been playing for 13+ years to have people around who can do that, it's much easier to go "hey what feat would best help my guy out at this lvl, here is what I want to do" than to sit and stair at all the feat discriptions for 30min just to come to the conclusion that I wont know untill I've seen the results in action. and even if you were a munch what's the problem? Are you jumping down the throats of dragons sclicing them open then teleporting out? Are you coming up with these weird combos that the DM has to sit and read through three different books and ponder for half an hour over? If the answer is no I wouldn't worry.... now sain and logical suggestions could be the following 1. get the guts to tell them that you are tired of being called that then having them all run to you for help when they need new feats/skills/classes 2. if you are not attached to the group find one that has more experinced players (cause it honestly sounds like you have players who don't exactally what a munchkin is but are just jelouse that your characters flow smoother than theirs) anyhow that is my input, I don't know the personalities of your group but I get the feeling that they really aren't meaning any harm by it (you just need to let them know it is doing harm). ** oh and my two cents on the sorcerer 'innate' thing... yes it does come naturally, but my take would be like this (again this is my take) they are born witht he power, but they have to learn what the power does and how to control it (which should take quit a bit of concentration and will power one would think along with a little time) so it's kind of like people with a natural talent for music, they are born with the talent but it does take some training for that talent to do any good. **only difference is a muscian doesn't tend to blow up their house or set themself on fire when learning their scales ;) **
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 03:59 PM	I haven't read everything, but: You are not a munchkin, you are a min/max'er and have maxed out on the diplomacy thing. I like your build, but you should make your fellow players aware that your min/max'ing has a lot of downsides as well, like the inability to cast evocation spells. Actually, the diplomacy thing was a theoretical exercise. I'm not actually playing that. :)
Ut-Napishtim 06-19-05, 04:53 PM	My DM sees it more as a reflection of the sorcerer's natural, innate take on spellcasting... I'm playing a sorcerer. At 2nd level... All he can do in combat is cast a string of summoned fiendish dire rats. And if you think that's a worthwhile contribution, well ... You don't have to defend yourself to me, man. Like I said, nobody here seems to have a problem with it. Personally I prefer to stick as closely to the RAW as I can in my games for simplicity's sake, but other people customizing their games doesn't exactly have a huge impact on my life so I say more power to you - go with the style that feels right. I wasn't trying to imply that your character had a uberbuild or anything. I was trying to point out that if your character is recieving special treatment from the DM while other characters aren't that might be a source of this odd resentment the other players harbor. Look at it conversely, if your DM allowed another player to have a Goliath (optional race) Thug (optional class,) and then bent the rules a little to give his character a couple extra class skills and a couple extra skill points/level, but then told you your Sorcerer couldn't specialize and had to be a core race wouldn't you be a little miffed - possibly even considering the other player's character a 'munchkin' build since yours had to stick to the RAW or core only? I'm not trying to slam your character, your DM, or you. I'm trying to get you to empathize and look at things from the other players' perspective in an attempt to help you discover why (even if it's an incorrect assumption) they feel justified in labeling you 'munchkin.' If the other players' characters have gotten just as many options and just as much 'special consideration' as yours then maybe they're just jerks and you should find a more mature group. :twocents:
NineInchNall 06-19-05, 05:01 PM	You make an interesting point. :) I'll think on that.
UltimateReality 06-19-05, 05:25 PM	Actually, the diplomacy thing was a theoretical exercise. I'm not actually playing that. :)And here we come to another reason that people call others munchkins or powergamers: the accused often engages in purely theoretical exercises to just to, well, see what happens with the rules. A lot of people view that as munchkining and think you're somehow trying to bend the rules to your advantage, but there are many reasons one could want to do that. Among the ones I've seen are: 1. To gain knowledge of how the system works so you don't have to waste time looking every little thing up and can just get on with the game. 2. To head off any possible problems when you DM or, if vindictive, find ways to hit your truly powergaming players with a dose of their own medicine. 3. You have lots of time and books on hand. And my favourite, 4. for fun. Because you're a geek. And playing with systems is fun. And the rules set is just another system. :)
20goingon1232 06-19-05, 06:37 PM	UR - Yeah to number 4. I fit it to a T. It's a total pain in the rear that some people are too lazy to be geeky, or even look down on geeks, and be at the forefront insulting geeks. Yet when it is needed, they are the ones demanding attention from said geeks in doing things. I personally just laugh in their faces. I like doing theoretical exercises. It keeps the mind limber. I can still do double digit multiplications faster than most people can type it into a calculator. I do it with all the games I play. Half the fun is making new, cool, theoretical characters than focus on a single concept. Whether they get to see the light of day is another matter altogether. Does this deserve the title of munchkin? Wrong question, really. The question is, do I care? The answer is I don't. I don't mind at all what I am called. I DO mind, however, when I get punished for it (eg., DM starts beating you with the illogical, fudged beatstick because he thinks you are a munchkin) in game. What can I say? I have had a very bad DM before. It's coloured my perception of DnD and RP in general tremendously.
Mike W 06-19-05, 06:57 PM	Technically, you're both wrong. You're more of a Powergamer, and they're Idiots. ;) Munchkins have very poor memories when it comes to the disadvantages and drawbacks of their abilities, and tend to "forget" penalties, rules, and often entire pages of the PHb. Tend to actually know the rules, but intentionally ignore them for personal gain. Also tend to cheat when rolling dice, and need to be treated like the children they are. Intent is vital for Munchkins - someone who cheats by mistake, or who genuinely doesn't know the rules, would fall under a different category. It is important to note that bending a rule doesn't make you a Munchkin - Munchkins do not bother bending rules, they simply ignore or break them with impunity. Min/Maxers are kind of like Powergamers (see below), but are far more likely to rely on absurd or literalist interpretations of the rules to power their builds. They make very powerful characters, but the progression of these characters tends to be very disjointed, and the reasons behind it tend to be questionable at best. Vow of Poverty Monk/Druid is a good example of this (and an actualy attempted build from awhile ago). Min/Maxers also tend to be Rules Lawyers, and it has been my personal experience that they are less willing than Powergamers to admit that they are wrong, even when the rest of the group is either actively against them, or bored to tears by their never-ending battle against common sense. Min/Maxers bend rules. Powergamers make good characters, and they make them by the rules, without bending the rules to suit them. They tend to be backloaded, sacrificing immediate power for long-term power, but this isn't necessarily true (especially in lower level or one-off campaigns). Powergamers tend to be at least decent roleplayers, if for no other reason than their ability to perfectly understand what their character is capable of, and can react accordingly. Powergamers know the rules very well, and tend to double as rules lawyers, but a good Powergamer is also willing to admit that everyone makes mistakes. Idiots are people who constantly confuse these three simple terms, using them as ad-hominum attacks in completely inappropriate situations. Idiots also tend to draw a distinction between role-playing and roll-playing, failing to realise that it is an artificial distinction and one that has long since lost any actual meaning, in favour of a general conveyence of ill-will.. Intent is important here, too. For example, Rathje just has a good sense of humor. If he were being serious, then he'd be an Idiot. :) There are, of course, a whole bunch of other definitions that cover the rest of the playing styles, but they're not really relevant here. This is the general idea I've gotten from conversations on the boards with people who actually understand that there's a difference between the terms, and use them appropriatey. As an aside, I tend to fall under the Powergaming definition to at least some extent, regardless of who is defining it. So don't think I was picking on you when I said you're a Powergamer, back up at the top of the post. :)
FreeTheSlaves 06-19-05, 08:01 PM	Why are you playing with people that are so unkind to you? No game is better than a bad game and there are great games like world of warcraft & nwn out there anyway.
sabrewolf 06-19-05, 08:36 PM	I know some about that, ever since i grew tired of the normal races and begun using ´other things´ sometimes my friends thinks it´s just for power.. thankfully only a couple still think that way but we rarely play together.. The amusing is i havent tryed my weirdest ideas yet... :evillaugh ...yet... NIN: :blink: *Insert quote about the 60 diplomacy part* :mymy: :OMG! Impressivem really impressive... (i dont know about talents and just forgot the synergy bonus :embarrass , but still impressive).... and that´d be the only reason to call you a munchkin, but, you have not used the "stacking multi-bonus to skill magical iten" on top with that. That would be munchkin :D ..or powergaming.. So as others said, "that, you are not". About the scorcerer specialization: nice stuff, allways thought them to be as inclined to it as wizards, as well as other specializations like in one element or aspect.. My advices would be: If they come to you for help / advice on character building, do so. Talk to them you´re just planning your character and can help them do the same.. it´s not really anything (munch or pwrgamin) it´s just planning... Or you could exercize your mind to the edge once, create a monster and go ´shock-terapy´: "you said munchkin? well, THIS is a munchkin!" :evillaugh ...then drop the char and play with something small, weak and cute.. :D To UR: me? all four +5: to learn a bit of the "dark-side of the munch" so should one idea or character concept head that way i inoy take a couple steps instead of falling all the way down.. ;) .am sure Yoda and Sun Tsu would have somethign to tell of this..
Nom 06-19-05, 08:52 PM	Hmm. My first response is that I'm a 2nd level sorcerer. All I have to talk about is in the future. I certainly can't do Jack right now.It depends. If you want to talk about how you single-handedly won encounters, then you're probably right. That you state "I think I may have taken out, say two enemies over the course of our adventures so far." suggests that maybe this is part of the problem. So don't try to be the guy that scores the goals. I play field hockey. I'm not much of a goal-scorer, but I do like to count "assists" - the number of goals that my team scored because I took control of the ball and sent a pass to a striker who finished it off. You can use a longspear - flank. You can summon dire rats - flank and skirmish. If you have daze, use it to temporarily disable key enemies so that your tanks can finish them without risk. Go and read the thread on useful low-level spells - you'll notice that direct damage doesn't feature. Your job is not to cause damage, it is to allow the other guys to cause damage that much faster. My second is that I don't see the munchiness in your two examples. One is the general, one is the specific. So munchkin = specificity? :confused: I've actually noted this same kind of example many many times on the 'net. "I'd like to use a shotgun," versus, "I'd like to use THAT shotgun." Obviously the second is munchkin. :looloo:You've missed my point. My point is that the other players are likely not interested in what you can achieve mechanically at some point in the future, and especially not how you could (if you wanted to) twist them to exacerbate this. "One day, I shall use my uber-leetness to triumph over you all". "Yeah, whatever, just shut up and play the game now, OK?". Stop thinking about how you can - sometime - have a really mechanically powerful character, and start focusing on how your character can right now be someone that is memorable, enjoyable and (perhaps) useful. The best character is not the most powerful character, but the one that all the other players want to be in the party because he makes their game fun. The character who always IC uses burning hands because "it's fire!", even though it's not always an optimal spell, is memorable. The set of stats that pines OOC for empowered fireball is not. It seems that your issue is exactly the same issue as some groups have with DMPCs. When the DMPC is about the DM wanting to be a focus of attention and mechanically powerful, the players hate it. When the character is entertaining for the players and spurs them to more fun then the players actively fight the DM to keep the character. Everyone will have more fun if you stop pining for what your set of stats will be like at 17th level and instead focus on making an entertaining character here and now.
TinManFan 06-19-05, 10:07 PM	Hey, burning hands rocks! Took out 4 mummies with one casting. As for low levels spells, nuttin hurts better than casting a True Strike on a Barb.
Roreck 06-19-05, 10:14 PM	As for low levels spells, nuttin hurts better than casting a True Strike on a Barb. umm true stike is a spell with a range of personal so no casting it on others (as far as I know) As for if he is munchie or not I vote that he is not a munchin nor is he a powergamer or a min/maxer. He knows the rules and how to use them to his advantage but chooses not to. This makes him a knowlegable and kind player. He plans for what the future and tries to help the people who insult him do the same. Frankly if someone said "you are such a munchie planning what you want for your pc so he can fit your character concept. Now help me powergame the $hit out of my character" it would be time for me to shot them with the hammer gun
TinManFan 06-19-05, 10:35 PM	Never said you wouldn't have to be inventive. Geez.
NineInchNall 06-20-05, 03:55 AM	Nom: Please don't make assumptions regarding my characters' personality or my ability to make them interesting or effective. I have, however, played far too many low level spellcasters, and therefore I know how to eke the most out of each of my spells. My sorcerer charmed the captain of a city's guard into sending two of his best with us on our little adventure. 2nd level party + 10th level Ranger and Druid = wheee! Do you blame me for daydreaming about what may end up being my first midlevel spellcaster? Ever? Anyhoo, this thread has been quite entertaining, and I thank the lot of you. I think I've got enough to deal with my problems. :)
Nom 06-20-05, 07:59 AM	Do you blame me for daydreaming about what may end up being my first midlevel spellcaster? Ever?No. But I'm suggesting that your fellow players might. ;)
Siduakal 06-20-05, 11:50 AM	You aren't a munchkin, you're a min/maxer or a powergamer(Whichever you prefer) Munchkins generally try to "Misinterpret" the rules/descriptions of skills/spells/feats to benefit themselves. Powergamers aka Min/Maxers stay in the limits of the rules. I'm a powergamer.. and I'm currently playing a VERY non power game character (Drow Wizard/Druid) in one campaign.. and in the other I'm a level 2 Vampire Fighter (Traveling with two much higher) -shrug- My group doesn't mind, cause they know I pick my stuff based on what I want to roleplay.. My drow is nothing like Drizzt, for the record. I would say stop helping your group with stuff until they cut it out..
Talinna 06-26-05, 12:28 PM	Please don't take this the wrong way... you're not a metta gammer are you? like I asked please don't take it the wrong way but sometimes people who read all the books and really know their stuff accidently become one, actually I don't think I've ever known of a person who sat down with their bowl of fruit loops and said " I wanna make my DM's life hell, I'll become a metta gammer." ** note ** while many have said the first part of that statement I highly doubt it was followed by the second and done over fruit loops! ***** back to the point, this little add in (if being done) may also be what is miffing some of your fellow players. Often what we see as just one thing may actually be a bunch of little things added up.
moustache guy 06-29-05, 02:48 AM	For what it's worth, I don't think you're a munchkin. Sure, you know how to maximize a given character aspect, but that's not a bad thing. As it is, maxing diplomacy isn't that great. What happens when you run into a creature whose language you don't speak? Or, you may know the language, but you don't know the creature speaks that language. Or you're up against non-intelligent enemies. Also, the rules say that a diplomacy check generally takes only one minute, but may take longer. So I wouldn't let a maxed diplo PC convince the BBEG not to destroy the world in just 1 minute. I may consider it over several adventures with the PC making good diplo checks and consistently displaying some good values toward the BBEG. Needless to say, the PC's actions would have to be just as heroic in redeeming the BBEG as they would be to kill the BBEG. Lastly, just because a creature is friendly, that doen't mean he lets the PC do whatever he wants. Sure, you may have made that ogre guard friendly, but he can't just let you in either. If he does, then his boss, the BBEG will kill him and his entire tribe. So it's actually very hostile of the PC's to insist they be let in. Granted, the ogre wouldn't kill you, perhaps he would use subdual damage.
timothyx 06-29-05, 04:29 AM	Alright, for sake of arguement, I'll ask for an opinion about my character. I think it's a bit of a Twink, but, you tell me... I decided I was going to play a Rogue/Mage type character, my Dm allowed me to pretty much go nuts and suggested the Daggerspell mage PRC which I think is hands down the most worthless Prc after 3rd level this side of the Newly Nerfed True Necromancer... Rogue 1/Wizard (Evoker) 5/Daggerspell Mage 3 stats: str: 12, dex: 15, con: 13, Int: 19, wis: 16, chr: 10 feats: Able Learner, BattleCaster, Practiced Spellcaster, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Scribe Scroll, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Neraph Throw (Unearthed Arcana). Flaws: Vulnerable, Quirks: (both from Unearthed Arcana) Spellgifted. (Casts Evocation Spells as a 12th Level Wizard, all other schools 10th, can't cast Enchantment or Necromancy Spells) The basic idea is that he's a genuis when it comes to Evocation spells, and if he throws a dagger at you, because he's out of spells, you're screwed. But aside from my own reservations about playing a DSM (which to me is as twinked and useless as it gets), I'd like any and all opinions... -------------- I actually, usually get acused of being a munchkin or min/maxer, I once got called one because I managed to kill an Adult Red Dragon with 2nd Level Aristocrat / 1st Level Sorcerer with nothing but 10's in all my stats, except Charisma which was an 17 and Int was 14.... Math killed the Dragon - Hire 20 1st Level Mages, arm them with 9th level Wands of Magic Missle... Before Combat, they all cast Greater Mage Armor. All of them are equiped with rings of fire resistance 10. 1st Round, Use the 14th level Paladin to step out and challenge the Dragon. 1st Round, all 20 Mages use thier Wands to strike the Dragon doing, between, (5d4+5 points of damage each, average 12x20 (240 points of damage), 2nd round, The paladin gets starts to get his ass kicked. 2nd Round, all 20 Mages use thier Wands to strike the Dragon doing, between, (5d4+5 points of damage each, average 12x20 (doing an additional 240 points of damage for a total of 440hp of damage) 3rd round, The paladin gets Eaten, the Dragon tries to escape 2nd Round, all 20 Mages use thier Wands to strike the Dragon doing, between, (5d4+5 points of damage each, average 12x20 (doing an additional 240 points of damage for a total 660hp of damage) 4th Round, Dragon breathes and kills all 20 of the Mages 4th Round, My Aristocrat/Sorcerer, uses Scroll of Sound Lance (10th Level) and kills the Dragon (by finishing off the remaining 25 hp it had left.) 5th Round, Dragon is a Grease spot I was playing in a game where all the other characters were 12th level to 15th level... I just wanted to Level up, I got to 10th level by that, the other players were ******. I had the 30 dwarven party of retainers help me carry the Dragons horde back, paid off the Loan for the magic stuff, Raised the Paladin, and buried the ashes of the 16 mages who couldn't be raised (obliteration does that) , giving thier families 200gp and a heartfelt apology. all I could say was.. "what? I just did what an self respecting smart person would".. I slayed a Dragon... lol
fango11 07-15-05, 06:28 PM	So this post has actually managed to tempt me to stop lurking and finally post something, probably because I've been met with the same experience in my group, only all the time. Of course, it's a bit more true with me, I am quite a powergamer, but then again so is everyone else in my group, I'm just better at it than them. But perhaps I should start from the beginning... In the first 3e campaign we played, I had a rogue/sorceress. This was before I realized that losing casterlevels SUCKED, and you really can't make a multiclass caster work at all in 3e because instead of only being 1 level behind everyone else (as was the case in 2e), you're at 1/2 the levels. So my sorceress I took from first level to 12th, at which point I was a Sorc9/Rogue3. I had a relatively high charisma, but nothing spectacular and the only bonuses I got to it were from a cloak of chr (actually I think it was an amulet or something, I had it specially crafted using a different slot). I was terrible at combat, the only reason I could do *anything* is because a) we were all new to the system so our characters weren't any good at fighting and b) the DM gave me an artifact scimitar that, instead of using my str bonus, used my int bonus for attack and damage, giving me a net +2 or +3 I think. I also, by virtue of me being in the party for a long time and the DM giving out more treasure than he should have, had approximately double baseline, if including the estimated price of the artifact scimitar. This, paired with the fact that I was very effective at controlling combat through intelligent use of the web spell (still probably my favorite low level spell in existence), was enough for the DM to call me a powergamer. Nevermind the fact that he wouldn't let me use skills EVER, despite this being a skills-based character (rogue levels plus high int plus high chr plus circlet of persuasion makes me good at interaction skills), and one time when I tried to make a gather information check and succeeded tremendously he had someone try to assassinate me like 1 round later. At that point, I had had enough, and decided that I would show them what a real powergamer was about. Using all the knowledge I had accrued in those 12 levels, I made a dragon disciple character before the rules were clarified about enlargement not granting size bonuses to strength, and at 14th level I had like a +30-something to hit and could do 60+ damage without a critical, and managed, in his first round of existence, to kill two frost giants and a beholder in a single swing. Of course, the character didn't live long because the campaign ended soon after (not really on account of my character being so overpowered, but that was at least part of the decision). But at least I managed, with that character, to show the DM that he was being a dumbass about calling me a powergamer because of the sorceress (of course, he STILL calls that character overpowered to this day, because a) he's an idiot and stubborn and b) the character tended to have evil tendencies, torturing people for information and whatnot, which he doesn't like, so he basically thinks of whatever irrational putdown he can for the character). So yeah. Even though that story didn't have a tremendous amount to do with anything in the way of advice, I thought I'd tell it. Showing them what a real powergamer can do is good, I think...but they will still call you a powergamer even if you go back to your old normal character afterwards. People tend to throw the word munchkin around like it's nothing, and the word really has lost all meaning (esp. when, in another thread on these very boards, you have people vehemently calling others "munchkins" and other various insults because they're asking if people think it's balanced to allow a psion with charisma instead of intelligence as their casting stat, even though the character in question has a chr score 5 points less than their int score). I also think withholding help and calling people munchkins in the least mature way possible are good things to do - again, they won't stop calling you a munchkin because of this, but at least it will make them look ridiculous and at least you'll be able to retain your sense of moral superiority, which you certainly have since if they're calling you a munchkin at 2nd level sorcerer then they're complete iditos anyway (unless, say, you're a sorc1/pal1 who casts mount all the time and has the mount attack as a summoned creature). Good luck. Edit: Right, I nearly forgot to mention: just because you talk about hypotheticals doesn't make you a powergamer, munchkin, min/maxer, or any other related thing. The debate in about half the posts on this thread regarding which of these words to call you because of the halfling example is ridiculous and I wish people would stop posting about it, because it's completely hypothetical and the original poster has no character of this sort, nor does he intend to make one, nor is it really that bad since apparently it would exist in a campaign world that seems to exist to be overpowered. So yeah.