Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Judging Eagle 02-24-05, 11:01 AM	Yeh, I'm a powergamer (I play a non-damage dealing spells known wizard) in a WLD campaign that has about 6 other PCs. Right now everything that our DM has sent against us has been either run down, caught, crushed, enslaved or fooled. I've also taken over the part of party leader (since i'm the most vocal >_>). In any case, the GM says that I must enjoy making GMs suffer and frankly I really don't know what to say. Realistically, I'm just trying to make the party as tough and survivable as possible (lots of us pack ranged weapons, the tanks don't always rush into combat, but hold the line and attack things that charge us or go into full defenseive stances and we fight as a squad, not like 6 individuals). Any suggestions on what to do to -not- be so powergamed? (mostly I'm like this b/c the first dungeoun crawl we did to 'test' this party resulted in a real mess with three party members going unconcious before being healed and I don't want a repeat of that fight).
Vharuck 02-24-05, 11:11 AM	Well first, stop casting [unkown] and instead only cast [unkown] on [unknown]. Please help us out with details. Like party stats, typical encounters, your tactics, spell choice, etc. Also note your general wealth level. Acting as a good team is *not* powergaming. The DM should be noting this and should be able to adjust encounters accordingly. Really, unless his encounters are specifically statted out exactly by way of plot, it's not that hard. Double the monsters, give them more AC or more damage, throw in a few environmental hazards, etc. But I don't really know if you're a powergamer. Tell me more.
aleph_woodenglenn 02-24-05, 11:32 AM	your powergamed character could have a weakspot for another character...maybe not a crush or anything like that, just a weak spot (if the rogue (or whatever) is in trouble, you'll abandon previous planning, chasing down that last orc or whatever, and help the rogue(or whatever)) or some other achilles heel. Also , teamwork is fun, but I would guess that if you are the team leader, you could demand another player do something. The problem is when leaders say what the other party members are doing (ie..."now the paladin over there is going to flank the ogre" while the player whose character is the paladin sits there in awe of your strategy prowess, but has said nothing about what his palaidin is doing) or your knows a touch too much about how the rest of the players operate (ie metagaming their capabilities, and suggesting stratics that match...would your wizard have a clue about the baddies its fighting, much less how the other characters could optimize their attacks...knowledge check please.) I don't know, there's nothing wrong with strong parties or characters, and your DM could beef up encounters, but it sounds like more input from the other party members, and less meta gaming all around could ensure that the squad is better balanced and your DM can save his hanky for wiping the gelatenous ooze from your last encounter off of the miniatures.
Krelios 02-24-05, 11:45 AM	You're not a powergamer, you've established a set of good tactics that should impress your DM. If he is feeling like you're "winning" then he needs to not DM anyway--it's not him versus the party. So long as your all having fun, who cares if the combat is easier or harder than he had planned? Planning a game of D&D is like trying to pin down a balloon, even if you get everything right, all you've done is blow it up.
Thoronmir 02-24-05, 12:07 PM	I agree. Using good tactics is not Powergaming. It’s something your DM should expect and actually reward. Of course, we prefer that whoever takes the lead for the party’s strategic planning have a roleplaying basis to do so. Not that we’re overly rigid about this, but we just want to avoid having the cloistered priest who’s never read about or seen a battle barking out orders like Patton. Since I’m usually our most strategic thinker, I try to make sure that my PCs have appropriate backgrounds to justify my tactical suggestions. The problem is that, while I may know combat tactics like the back of my hand, my PC may not. On the other hand, the players running characters who ought to be tacticians may not know anything more advanced than “(1) Move next to bad guy; (2) Attack bad guy; (3) Repeat as necessary.” This is why we allow some leeway when it comes to metagaming strategies. The compromise we’ve struck is that, unless the PC issuing “orders” has a roleplaying basis to do so, we try to limit “advisory tactical suggestions” to a few critical situations. Basically, a player has to ask for help and the DM has to allow it. Our system represents our group’s recognition that sometimes a player may have no clue how to act, but his PC would. We’re even more forgiving when the party has time to plan out strategies in advance. Again, from a roleplaying perspective, it may be the Paladin who recommends the winning plan, but that plan may have actually been devised by the guy playing the Rogue. Basically, we try to avoid metagaming while not requiring that every player enroll for advanced studies at the War College.
Super Guy 02-24-05, 01:51 PM	Like some users have said, the only real thing I can suggest is that, as long as EVERYONE makes the decisions, there's no problem. If you are telling the paladin what to do, it's sort of metagaming. If he knows what to do by himself and does it without your instruction, it's much more fair to the game. This doesn't apply when you have time to say "Pally, go here" but in battle where it's chaotic, you don't have time to instruct PCs. If you're not doing this, though, then it's just all around good teamwork and the DM needs to beef up his stuff a little more just so you guys don't get bored with whooping everything that comes your way.
Thorak 02-24-05, 01:58 PM	Stealth. This is how the GM absolutely destroys any concept of tactics the PCs have. If you're high enough level, it wouldn't be out of place to, say, have 8th level Orc Rangers spend some time setting up a nasty ambush, with half their number in shallow pits well-hidden. The party doesn't notice them, walks into the middle, the other half open fire, the party turtles, and then the other half rise up out of the still-unnoticed pits right in their midst, and start Sundering bows and Tripping the party. If it's your divinations that are the problem, convince your DM to have intelligent enemies. Ones that, say, use magic to prevent divination if they suspect their plans are being found out. Or illusions to entirely give the party the wrong idea to lead them into a trap. The possibilities are endless. From the little you've said, your party has basically one tactic the DM can't counter well. IMHO, that's because he's not creative enough.
DevilKiller 02-24-05, 08:26 PM	Surely you must know how to powergame less. Make less optimal choices during character design, memorize less powerful spells, and don't exploit unusually useful tactics. Perhaps you could even try playing a bard, or even a barbarian/bard who becomes deeply interested in Eastern mysticism, learns to read so he can study holy scrolls, multiclasses into Monk, and loses all Bard and Barbarian powers. If you don't feel like going that far, the core rulebooks actually have a great solution to powergaming, the starting kit. If you take the starting kit and follow the character design lead of the generic NPCs in the DMG you'll be more or less assured that you've got a balanced character unless the DM forces high ability scores or excess wealth upon you. That might sound like a joke, but a surprising number of DMs do one or both of these things. Somehow I expect this advice will not be what you really wanted, but you did say:Any suggestions on what to do to -not- be so powergamed?
Callista 02-24-05, 09:31 PM	Make sure not to metagame. Retire your character if you have any truly ridiculous things... you know, the Huge, monkey-gripped mercurial greatsword, or the Hulking Hurler, or anything else like that. Go straight PHB for your next character, build a solid, survivable character without any exotic feats, and concentrate on developing his/her personality instead (the core classes are pretty cool all by themselves, really, especially Rogue and Sorcerer). Battle is chaotic--if your character and his INT couldn't figure it out in six seconds, you shouldn't either. Allow your character to develop quirks--not handicaps, per se, but have him react as a human (or whatever) being. For example, my barbarian generally goes berserk when she sees drow... not because she's bad at strategy, but because she has that much of a grudge against them. You're not playing chess with pawns that will do your every bidding; you're playing a character with flaws and weaknesses just like any other mortal. So, if your character would execute an imperfect strategy, do so. Stop just playing chess, and start being an actor playing the part of your character... it's not all strategy (though a lot of it is). Don't do moronic things, though--just act like your character would from his POV and not from your pretty much omniscient POV. I would also recommend you ask the DM to step up the difficulty a little (he does allow you to create new characters at near the party level, right?). This will allow him to cut things closer--come closer to TPKing your team without actually doing so--and the PCs will have the opportunity to face tougher and probably more interesting challenges.
green_yawgmoth 02-24-05, 10:12 PM	If you use the same or very similar tactics every combat, maybe your DM needs to step back, look at how he gets his ass handed to him the same way, and figure out how to effectively fight your strategies. Every plan has a counter, and if you're getting into any sort of level where you'd have some noteriety, chances are someone's itching to get you and has scry. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
krichaiushii 02-24-05, 10:20 PM	Perhaps after each session, make recommendations to him regarding the tactical choices that your opposition should have been making. Be polite about it, but it could be that your DM doesn't have a firm grasp of tactics beyond "hey diddle diddle straight up the middle", and needs help being devious. In addition, DMs are allowed to modify dungeons, even commercially produced ones. Perhaps he needs to do so.
Judging Eagle 02-24-05, 11:50 PM	Well.. this is a First level party that I'm talking about. The party is made up of "Tiny" The Bugbear Fighter (0 lvl fighter) (A 1 HD bugbear (member of the nameless legion (a pan-dinemsional mercenary company that is basically a deus ex machina that allows everything frfom LG Death Slaad Paladins to N Ogre Policemen), I asked the GM if we could tone this guy's character down a bit to 1 HD since with no armour alone he was able to tank for the party in a whole dungeoun). Earned a +1 Great Axe in our first dungeoun run, uses a weighted chain w/out the EWP for it (the -4 isn't that bad, really it isn't, he'll get the EWP when he hits 1st lvl as a fighter). Ig-Anon Thul (aka Thul) My Wizard (1st lvl, as are all other PCs, unless noted) (non-specialist, most cast spells to date: Enlarge Person (has turned the tides of almost every major fight (3 so far!)), Obscuring Mists (didn't work out perfectly, but we were able to march up to a pack of goblins w/ crossbows that the DM thought would murder my wizard); lots of investment into knowledge skills, packs a mule loaded with several large books, has set out to glean all sorts of knowledge frrom the world. Uses a light X-bow or a ranseur to help Tiny in combat (aid an other). Earned 1 (but as 2 thanks to Tiny) pearls of power (1st lvl) Draco The Human Ranger (ranged attacks, sucks when he melees, so we don't let him melee; is in charge of taking care of the parties guard dog). Monaco The Monk (packs a tripping staff that only deals subdual (also a member of the Nameless Legion, but he's a police-type). Earned a amulet of mighty fists in our 1st dungeoun run. Abigale Williams (-_-, really, that's his PCs name) The Warlock (This player has had a hell of a time keeping to a single character concept in the game that I run, the warlock class seems right up his alley though, straight 'magical' blaster type). Uthgar The Cleric (DMPC, he sort of 'follows' our directions, was made since we intend to have the DM's seat rotate eventually for this 800 page dungeoun). Draeden The Favoured Soul of Kord (Wanted to pack a big sword and cast spells, the DM reccomended this class, this guy really saved the monk's bacon the first big fight we got into, had to CLW twice as he was fighting Snig the Axe). Tanith the Rogue (freaking skill monkey and a half, has an 18 in int which means his char got like 50-odd skill pts 1st lvl; also part of our ranged element). For gear, we've got no magical gear just yet (althugh the DM did allow us to buy one item up to 2K in value, so Tiny and my Wizard bought a pair of pearls of power (1st lvl spells only, I plan on Enlarging the Bugbear, the Favoured Soul and the Cleric and let them beat **** up). So far our tactics come down to sticking together and letting melee attackers come to us (for them to provoke AoOs from the party while the ranged users shoot the enemy); while I cast Obscuring mists to keep us relatively safe vs ranged attackers. I don't think that any of us are going to be too tricked out build-wise or gear-wise. I should add that I don't tell the party members where to go in each turn, I just give them an idea as to what I want to do (ie. make a line and let them come to us, advance in the cover of the obscuring mists and keep me concious so it doesn't fade and we get shot to death). Our first major fight was a sort of dicy, we sort of ran in and got completely flanked, the monk charged the BBEG and got knocked unconcious twice, a bunch of undead charged the ranged PCs and my own wizard got flanked by hobgoblins and spent the rest of the fight crawling instead of getting up and shooting his crossbow and then at the end casting enlarge person. Since that first fight we've changed a bit and the DM keeps telling me that I enjoy making inexperienced DMs cry. I'll just probably take item creation feats that I'll never be able to use in the WLD, that should balance it somewhat.
HomebrewedMonster 02-25-05, 02:13 AM	Besides the wizard in melee combat, you're just using good tactics. Your DM needs to stop whining and come up with some good tactics and counter tactics.
Jell_Moo 02-25-05, 04:33 AM	Your playing a Wizard in the World's Largest Dungeon??? Wow... Tell your DM not to worry, the problem is soon going to take care of itself. Prepare to know the meaning of "suck". ;)
Wargamer 02-25-05, 04:51 AM	If in doubt, find characterful reasons that your party wouldn't be as strong as it seems... for example, our party contains five characters: FLETCHER: A rogue. Very self-centred, enjoys wine, and is insanely greedy. Most dragons give up money faster than he does! FREDDO: A Halfling Ranger/Wizard. Freddo is the brains of the party, and a pretty skilled "jack of all trades" style character. However, others in the party don't always take him seriously (especially Bragg). ZEBIAS: An Elven Duellist turned Pirate, Zebias has two unquenchable urges: the urge to fight, and the urge to show off. More than once has his desire to be "better" than all around him led him into trouble... BRAGG: The party Cleric. Bragg is probably the toughest fighter, making up for any lack in skill and finesse with sheer power! However, he is a tad absent-minded, and sometimes tunes out whenever he encounters something he can't cure or hit. LUCILLA: An Elven Arcane Archer, Lucilla has a strong attraction to Zebias (and being horny in a fight can be quite distracting...). He is also loathed by Flethcer and Freddo, who are both jealous of her (far superior) ranging ability. So there we are; a party where there is plenty of room for infighting, unhelpful behavior, personal error, distraction, creative misunderstandings or just outright rebellion! ...so how we keep surviving I'll never know. You'd think a monster 5 levels higher than us would have been more deadly...
was_fired 02-25-05, 05:16 AM	Wait... let me get this straight. Your DM is angry that a wizard (high int) is thinking about tactics in battle? I really don't understand some DMs. Normally people whine that their players are idiots and they have to fudge things to keep them alive. I get annoyed at my players for mistakes which nearly wipe them out since I refuse to fudge. Why in gods name should a DM be annoyed at a well played party which doesn't use abusive tactics? Yes, you use enlarge person which is a good spell. Your level one though, and that is the best damage dealing spell you have. Kudos for actually thinking.
Golem1972 02-25-05, 08:12 AM	First question: how much experience does this DM have? It seems like a lot of the problems here are his fault for allowing to much / making houserules. 1) The Bugbear. He should be an ECL 5 character (with 1 class level). I realize that the DM has dropped the Racial Hit Dice, but does he realize how much that helps PCs? Even without the hit dice, he should still be at least a +1 LA. (though this part may be accounted for, you may want to clarify a little) 2)Character wealth: +1 greataxe, 2 pearls of power (1), lots of arcane books, other? Not sure what the rest of the party has, but you and Tiny are up around 3rd level in wealth just off that stuff (and that really does skew CRs). 3)Party size. Your party is twice as big as normal. If you were monsters you'd be at least a CR3 encounter. With all of the extra stuff, probably a CR4. Your DM should probably be doubling the number of creatures your party is facing (if he hasn't already). If things still seem to easy, almost all of the encounters have options to increase their difficulty. My advice: 1) Drop the cleric. That would reduce the power level of the party a bit. 2) Talk to the DM and Tiny's player, they should think about switching out the bugbear for a Half-Orc, Orc, Goliath, Half-Giant, or Half-Ogre. The penalties that come with those races will help balance things out a bit. 3) Reduce the wealth level (drop the PoP, leave the greataxe as it was earned during gameplay and will help lessen the sting of losing the bugbear race). 3a) A different form of wealth: stats. If you added each characters stats up going by point buy, what would the point buy value be? 30+? 40+? 50+? more? High stats can play havoc with CRs just like excessive wealth. It may be a good idea to pick a more mellow number (32 - 42 for high powered games) and recalculate everyones character sheets. 4) Your character. I don't know if this has been discussed OOC, but I'm guessing that your DM is going to cut you a break and allow you your free spells per level (otherwise what are the books for?), this is specifically ruled against in WLD. It would be a pretty big nerf for you (and probably doesn't fit your play style or character concept), but you might consider asking your DM to let you switch from Wizard to Warmage. Direct damage is a sub-optimal casting style, but it does have that militaristic mage feel to it. You might ask if you could keep the knowledge skillset from the wizard class or burn a feat to have them as class skills so you can keep most of your original character idea. This stuff is mostly a DM problem, so don't think it's all your fault. Keep up the tactical thinking, you're gonna need it (I'm reading through the WLD right now, and it's a meat grinder). Don't be afraid to use your brain (not brawn) and come up with novel tactics/solutions (not all encounters have to end in combat).
Arrowhen 02-25-05, 05:55 PM	You're not powergaming, you're just gaming. It seems to me that your DM simply isn't ready to handle such a large party.
Black Kitten 02-25-05, 06:56 PM	Yeh, I'm a powergamer (I play a non-damage dealing spells known wizard) in a WLD campaign that has about 6 other PCs. Right now everything that our DM has sent against us has been either run down, caught, crushed, enslaved or fooled. I've also taken over the part of party leader (since i'm the most vocal >_>). In any case, the GM says that I must enjoy making GMs suffer and frankly I really don't know what to say. Realistically, I'm just trying to make the party as tough and survivable as possible (lots of us pack ranged weapons, the tanks don't always rush into combat, but hold the line and attack things that charge us or go into full defenseive stances and we fight as a squad, not like 6 individuals). Any suggestions on what to do to -not- be so powergamed? (mostly I'm like this b/c the first dungeoun crawl we did to 'test' this party resulted in a real mess with three party members going unconcious before being healed and I don't want a repeat of that fight). I must admid that I haven't read all replies, but to get started on what you wrote. You are using tactics, show a decent knowledge of the rules and know how to keep things going. That's a very important aspect of a player and if someone does it well, I would say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I believe that if your DM is having difficulties defeating your group tactic (that's something called Fireball I believe and cover and always hitting magic missiles and ambushes and... etc) he should spend some good time reading the rules (see which ones you use and how to avoid them if nescesary). It's not powergaming, but still. If it is, it doesn't need to be wrong. If you know that you are going to face a tank division, you don't run around in your underwear with a bibigun. You'd bring yourself something to bust the tanks with. And even if you only take the bibi-gun, good tactics could secure you the material you need to ambush the tanks (like digging large holes etc). I am a firm believer that a smart fighter with a chair is capable of giving the city-guard a run for their lives (unless you're in hell or something), so in the end it doesn't matter whether the DM rigs your character. Only putting duck-tape on your mouth will solve his problem. Maybe you could give your DM an example. Show him (in private) how a simple tactic could make a battle more challenging. This is of course, digging your own grave (since I bet he's going to get back on you), so choose a tactic you can counter in the end. :cool:
Judging Eagle 02-25-05, 11:21 PM	Yeah, our stats are pretty much through the roof, mostly b/c we rolled for our stats (the ranger's player had this completely insane idea: 5D6 re-roll 1's AND 2's -_-; i stuck with good-old 4D6 reroll 1's then got bumped up a few points). In fact I've got the lowest stated character in the whole party (90 free buy total) the rest of the party is all over the place (the ranger's stats would equal a 78 point buy, :eek: yes I just figured out what his stats are worth). As for the 'books' that I have, they're more like textbooks so that I can increase my knowledge skills, my spells known are fortunatly going to be augmented by Collegiate Wizard (6 + int mod at lvl 1, +4 spells known/lvl; has to be taken at lvl 1) as well as Spellcasting Prodigy (+2 to prime casting stat to determine extra spells/day, so although i have 18 int, i count as having 20 for extra spells/day). Both feats had to be taken at lvl 1 regardless of class that I am at lvl 1 if I wanted to take advantage of said feats. post unfinished, and i'll be gone this weekend at pandemonium, i'll fix any mistakes on monday. >_>
Bard06 02-26-05, 12:51 PM	The group is in the world largest dungeon right? then it will be soon enough when the pcs will see difficult problems in the future. ;)
Lana "Silvertongue" 02-26-05, 01:39 PM	Anyone consider that WLD might be a dungeon a touch too advanced for the novice DM. Its cliche, its old and its 3.0 but Sunless Citadel and a through explaining of how to update monster to 3.5 might be a better starter.. or even taking one of the level 1-3 campaigns from a Dungeon Magazine and through campaign prep from an experienced DM might give the guy a bit more of an edge.
Vatras 02-26-05, 11:04 PM	After seeing the group (its 1st level for heavens sake) i think your DM needs some practice, although he has done the better choice for now: he used too weak encounters for your large group (often better then to achieve TPK by overdoing it). He has to expect 1st levels to be alert and fighting with claws and teeth for the right to breathe, because they are so vulnerable. I would advise him to slowly up the monsters until he gets it right. It does not matter if he doesnt get it right at first try, its not as if there were not enough monsters where they come from.
charred 02-27-05, 12:53 PM	Your DM is finding a 1st level wizard too powerful? Is he on drugs? A strong wind can kill you. If your DM can't handle that, he is the one with problems. A first level party causing him such greif? I can't imagine anything easier to control. I was going to say maybe you want to let the other PCs do most of the work for a while while you hold back a bit. Otherwise, he will do what so many other incompetent DMs do -- make a house rule. House rules are just the tool of a DM that doesn't want to do their job correctly, so they cut out pieces of the players game. I honestly don't know what you should do. You can either die to make him happy, or wait for him to put out a house rule that will cripple your game.
Yoho1.5 02-27-05, 01:56 PM	Your DM sucks, yaada yaada yaada, your DM sucks.... if your DM was any good at all he'd spend day and night thinking up challanges for your spiked chain ftr/bbn/rgr/hulking dervish... awakened half fiend/ half drangon whatever... you DM sucks! Blah! blah blah your DM sucks... :rolleyes: Firstly your army sized party would present problems to any published modual, fact that you also tactically sound will make challanging the party tougher. Now a player DM tactical gap is not unusual. Players only have to devote their time to maxing their characters, and a DM has to manage much,much more, and sometimes combat gets the short shift. Also the players are at liberty to max out all they want as there is no difference between victory and completely wiping the floor with their advisaries, while a DM has to Challange the party without killing all of them, its a very fine line. If I drop the nastiest monster trap villain combo I can think of on my players they cry foul, yet they feel perfectly ok bringing me the most munchkin thing they can think of. I don't think your DM sucks, he just sounds like he doesn't have lots of experience, the only thing I can say is that if you have lots of player experience share some tactics advice out of game, and take it easy on him for starters by saving your best builds and spell combos for when he gets better.
Judging Eagle 03-03-05, 11:32 AM	Well, we're not that munchkin. Sort of... The bugbear has 1 die for HP (d8+con mod) and zero class levels (to balance his +1 LA) and wields a spiked chain with no proficiency (he'll take EWP: spiked chain when we all hit lvl 2 and he gets to lvl 1 fighter). The rest of the party is all PHB races (in fact, we're almost all humans) (although my wizard is going to rely almost entirely on spellcasting prodigy and collegiate wizard to keep him up to par since he can't buy spells). so no half-ogre-half white-dragon-half-fiend (too many halves imo) barbarians or any such nonsense. The biggest problems my DM has are as follows (or at least to me) 1. Massive Party (he does throw larger numbers of enemies, our first boss fight was brutal and at least 4 PCs were in pretty sorry shape) 2. We are very cautious about just 'attacking'; we tend to have lots of ranged attackers (1 rogue, 1 ranger, 1 wizard, 1 warlock) the cleric, favoured soul, bugbear and monk are more melee (even then they use reach weapons (monk, bugbear) Big weapons (favoured soul: great sword) or are really tough (half-orc combat cleric). 3. We work pretty much as a team (tanks make a line, the bugbear preps to trip people, the ranged users fire as often and as soon as possible). 4. I refer to these forums for ideas on what to do when I play; example: I was considering not getting any summon monster spells and relying on shadow conjuration to allow me a larger possible amount of spells to cast, but now I'm going to go for summon monser 3 at least (and get me a lil' mousy guardianel :dancin:)
Wizard 03-03-05, 12:29 PM	IIRC, with a +1 LA, the bugbear is an ECL 2 character---1 HD +1 LA.
eudas 03-04-05, 02:43 PM	IIRC, with a +1 LA, the bugbear is an ECL 2 character---1 HD +1 LA. ECL = HD + LA + class levels so you'd be right. But, maybe they've worked out a Savage Species-type progression so that it remains balanced throughout its full growth stage. eudas
Wizard 03-04-05, 04:32 PM	Perhaps...but if the DM can't handle 1st-level characters, maybe he doesn't have as strong a grasp of the rules as we might think.
Judging Eagle 03-05-05, 01:46 PM	Nah, the DM knows what he's doing (I think...) he's DMed an other group (and learned that giving more than a level a session is bad) and he plays in my own campaign (I've given them 3 levels over the course of about 13-15 sessions, so they're really slowly leveling up, eventually they'll platuea since goblins/kobolds/hobgoblins/orcs/troglodytes can only present so much of a challenge until the party starts to have to fight more powerful types of enemies in my campaign world). I'm pretty sure that we'll level half as slow as most parties would, plus he'll throw at least 50% more monsters and up to 100% more monsters just to even out the fight. This actually reminds me of an LG session I had last weekend, 8 people in a level 1 module (all level 1's, but still). For the 1st fight we were only able to subdue the higher level rogue b/c we could actually -surround- him and Sap him into unconsiousness. For our second fight we went from fighting 12 goblins (which my wizard and the other wizard were able to kill 6 of in 3 rounds with our crossbows, while the rest of the 'ranged' fighters (a halfling fighter and a human ranger) kept missing) which 'suddenly' went up to 24 goblins (and it was somewhat on edge once the enlarged dwarf cleric was at 1, my own wiz and the other one were surrounded by goblins and several other party members were at 1 or 0 hp as well).
YaoiGoddess 03-05-05, 01:53 PM	The problem isn't yours. You have a BAD DM that can't run a good game.
VirgilCaine 03-05-05, 02:31 PM	Nah, the DM knows what he's doing (I think...) he's DMed an other group (and learned that giving more than a level a session is bad) and he plays in my own campaign (I've given them 3 levels over the course of about 13-15 sessions, so they're really slowly leveling up, eventually they'll platuea since goblins/kobolds/hobgoblins/orcs/troglodytes can only present so much of a challenge until the party starts to have to fight more powerful types of enemies in my campaign world). I'm pretty sure that we'll level half as slow as most parties would, plus he'll throw at least 50% more monsters and up to 100% more monsters just to even out the fight. How long has this DM been DMing? Does he know that you increase the target EL of the party when you increase the number of party members?
deusxmachina 03-07-05, 02:38 AM	Sounds like the DM is inexperienced, so to keep things fun for everyone, you either need to tone it down or help him learn. Some stuff is easily legal but takes the fun away from everyone else. Once I discovered how long someone can hold their breath, it was only others' enjoyment that kept my druid from turning into a large octopus during melee and having eight Improved Grapple/Constrict attacks. Sometimes you just have to tone it down.