Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 04:27 PM	In my current campaign I am playing Strongheart halfling rogue. I played a rogue last campaign and was kinda pushed into it this campaign because no one wanted to play one. I am now starting to resent playing at all because it is all boring now. In my last campaign I played a rogue from level 1-20. It took almost a full year in real life. I am stuck with the character because there is a strict rule of "Only one PC may change his class/race per campaign" Last gaming session the Scout decides to change to a barbarian leaving me as the only sneak oriented person and unable to change. I am stuck with my character and dont know what to do. Here he is. Strongheart halfling rogue lvl 3 Str:14 Dex:20 Con:14 Int:15 wis:10 Cha:12 Feats:Fearless(area feat), Weapon finesse, *combat expertise, improved feint* The ones with * can be changed because I have yet to use either in the campaign. It's a little house rule that you can change it if you haven't used it yet, but the prequesites are what you had at the lvl you got the feat. What could I do with this character? I think that he is a little too far into rogue to do any spellcasting effectively except for Arcane trickster. I might do a sneaky fighter, but we already have 2 tanks and a ClericZilla in melee. I really want to do some sort of magic, but am open to anything. Heres what the party consists of Human Fighter concentrating on hammers and bastard sword Goliath Barbarian Elven Cleric Strongheart halfling Warlock and me the Strongheart halfling rogue Anyone have suggestions?
bobberry109 05-15-06, 05:40 PM	If you want to go for the feint in combat style of rogue lose combat expertise, and improved feint, and get the prereq's for the invisible blade prestige class, because eventually you can feint and full attack but only with daggers (ohh the horror). You could even go for the insanly diplomatic type (if thats your's and the parties cup of tea). However if your desperate to get into an arcane caster then retire your char and make everyone else cope with it. If they complain tell them to be the rogue because youve done it enough, the game is about fun if you're not having it then you're not playing it right.
Reversefigure4 05-15-06, 05:49 PM	Arcane Trickster will require you to change classes twice with multiclassing - once for the spellcasting class, and once for the PrC. If you die, do you have to come back as a rogue, or can you pick again? If so, there's your only option.
starfire311 05-15-06, 05:50 PM	your party seems to be lacking in arcane casting... I would recommend picking up wizard then go for arcane trickster
starfire311 05-15-06, 05:53 PM	Arcane Trickster will require you to change classes twice with multiclassing - once for the spellcasting class, and once for the PrC. If you die, do you have to come back as a rogue, or can you pick again? If so, there's your only option. by picking up wizard and arcane trickster he is not changing his class... he is getting new ones. Their house rule allows one and only one person to change their class... while everyone else must stick with decisions they have made, but they can still get new classes in the future.
starfire311 05-15-06, 05:54 PM	just thought of another one... check out daggerspell mage... see if you can get into that one.
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 06:08 PM	I was thinking about going wizard, but guess what? My DM is addicted to war campaigns where we never get any downtime. I would never be able to study unless I found another wizards spellbook which is highly unlikely. I have to have a roleplay reason to pick up another class. The reason must be very long to be acceptable. The soonest that I could see me getting a wizards spellbook, or buy one would be in 4+levels. We have just finished an undead filled dungeon for a tribe of orcs and now are on our way to another tribe of orcs to complete our original rescue quest. Guess where that takes us? Up into the deserted mountains of ice cold doom. One of the real reasons I am resenting my rogue is the fact that I have yet to be able to use my sneak attack ability. In more than 9 monster encounters I haven't been able to use it. Why? Undead, constructs, or flying creatures that cant be flanked. I know that I should talk to my DM about it, but he already has his OMFG UNDEADZ EATZ U UP campaign planned out. That is th real reason I want out of rogue. By the time the little undead adventure is over we will be over level 10 by his estimates. One thing my DM is known for is not killing PCs. I once failed a reflex save against a trap and got squished by a stone slab. I died from damage. Suddenly and magically none of that happpened. I'm gonnna talk to him about that next session.
Dragonsblood 05-15-06, 06:42 PM	Your problem is out of game, not in game. Talk to your DM because your house rules suck if they're stopping you from having fun.
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 07:03 PM	I assume if you die you can make a new character /cough hint hint. Kill yourself and make a new character. If that isn't the case then it still might be more fun to suicide. Might show your DM that he needs to adjust to the situation and stop railroading you guys.
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 07:08 PM	Suicide. Another character tried it, but he failed his will save to go "Through with it" I tried it and failed my fortitude save to "Go through with the pain." He just wont let us kill ourselve. When we are low on HP monsters seem to miraculously start missing us or changing targets. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! It so damn frustrating. Walking away isn't an option either. I would rather play Dnd with limits than not play DnD.
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 07:19 PM	I was thinking about going wizard, but guess what? My DM is addicted to war campaigns where we never get any downtime. I would never be able to study unless I found another wizards spellbook which is highly unlikely. I have to have a roleplay reason to pick up another class. The reason must be very long to be acceptable. The soonest that I could see me getting a wizards spellbook, or buy one would be in 4+levels. Sounds like your DM doesn't know the rules imo. You are assumed to be studying and reaseraching your spells during your adventures. Are you telling me that you spend 15 hours a day fighting, 8 lost to rest and 1 to preparing spells. You may be adventuring 8 hours a day which is typical then you have 7 HOURS PER DAY to research and practice new spells. Getting a spellbook should be supplied to you by your DM, if he makes you work for it that is understandable but he should give you the oppertunitity to quickly get one.
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 07:26 PM	Suicide. Another character tried it, but he failed his will save to go "Through with it" I tried it and failed my fortitude save to "Go through with the pain." He just wont let us kill ourselve. When we are low on HP monsters seem to miraculously start missing us or changing targets. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! It so damn frustrating. Walking away isn't an option either. I would rather play Dnd with limits than not play DnD. Just say you are coup da graceing yourself. Use something with a times 4 crit, doesnt matter if you have no proficency. You should die from that they auto hit and auto crit so get a scythe. By RAW you can always choose to fail a save btw. Your DM controls your world but YOU control your character and NOT the DM. Your DM is a railroading fool, but I understand why you are sticking with him.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-15-06, 07:29 PM	Well, if you don't want to multiclass (or can't), what about focusing heavily on UMD and being a fake arcanist with scrolls and wands and staves and such? Sure it's expensive, but it can work, I've done it before.
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 07:30 PM	How about just getting your character arrested and taken out of the game. Just randomly attack guards in town, make it more sinister if you want. Yes it is chaotic stupid but that is the point you are trying to kill your character by having others do it. They will overpower and kill or arrest you. Either way your character is taken out of the game. OHHHH how about making a pact with your groupmates. have one of THEM kill you and they get to keep your gear as compinsation since you cant seem to kill yourself.
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 07:33 PM	We actually do adventure for 15+ hours a day. He may not kill us in combat, but out of combat is another story. All of our characters would have died from exhaustion by this point in the campaign. In the 20+ days of the campaign we have rested only eight times. The most we stayed up for was 3 days because we had to hurry to finish a timed quest. It is rediculous. How exactly should I confront him about all of this? We play at his house, and his two sons play with us. I am naturally a bit intimidated because he is a really big guy and i'm not so big. The reason the whole "one change" houserule came up is because every session one of his sons would change race or class on a whim. Because of their poor actions I am suffering. As to the whole attack the guards thing. I will not be able to because by the time we reach another civilized area we will be 10th level. We will have no downtime until 10th level. Trust me I have gamed with the same DM for two years now. Other people killing me wouldn't work because they are all Good and would rather tie my character up than let me kill myself or help me kill myself.
monkadin 05-15-06, 07:38 PM	What I recommend is to talk to the other players out of game. It sounds like your DM is running a "monty haul" game, and a particularly bad one at that. Chances are the other players are at least somewhat upset, and if you all get together and refuse to play unless the DM changes things, you'll almost definetly get a response. If they don't do anything, its their fault. They're not the only DM in the world. Might sound harsh, but desperate times call for desperate FOOTCAKE. sorry. But seriously, getting the help of the other players is a good way to get a rule changed EDIT:: they may be bigger than you, but are they bigger than the entire group combined?
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 07:44 PM	Except the problem is that of the players Two are his son who have reveled in his gamestyle for seven years. They love hack and slash and would rather die than roleplay. The other two players have only been in the game for 3 or 4 sessions. They don't even know half the stuff that is going on. Nonetheless what might be wrong with our Dnd outings. Edit:Yes the three of them are way bigger than the three of us. DM:6'5" muscle along with some fat DM son 1:6'2" fat along with decent muscle DM son 2: 5'8" fat with little muscle Player 1:5'10" skinny with muscle tone Player 2:5'11" skinny with decent muscle Me:5'9" skinny with muscle tone So in short they are bigger and alot more intimidating that us. Also note the fact that the sons are both powergamers. One is running a Goliath Barbarian the other is a Buffing ClericZilla who does more damage than the rest of the party combined.
monkadin 05-15-06, 07:53 PM	Didn't see that last part. try pressing up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-A-B-A-B-L1-R2 and hold down the left analog stick for 4 seconds. You should hear a beep to confirm you entered it correctly. If you don't, have your character jump off a cliff, impale themself, gouge out ther eyes, rip out their heart, hang themself, and choke themself all at once. If that doesn't kill them, the other players should notice that the DM is making the characters TOO invulnerable. Or you could have the character run off into the woods and starve themself. Keep trying this kind of stuff. Eventually the DM should give in and let your character die. Maybe even have another character hire assassins to kill your character. If none of that works, its probably time for a new DM.
dragonseth 05-15-06, 07:59 PM	He won't kill you in combat eh? :evillaugh If I were you, I'd make him rethink that. Be suicidially offensive. Even to the point of insanity. If you don't die like that, you will kill a LOT of stuff, and it will be a lot of fun. If you do die, mission accomplished. :D
pres_man 05-15-06, 08:00 PM	If you are somehow truly stuck in being part of this idiotic campaign with stupid houserules, then I would agree, just start maxing out your UMD and just start wearing bright robes and calling yourself a mage. Get your hands on as much wands, staffs, and scrolls you can. Put ranks in spellcraft and knowledge arcana (once you get UMD maxed out).
monkadin 05-15-06, 08:01 PM	You may want to multiclass as fighter. To become a fighter you just have to whack stuff, so no time to study shouldn't be a problem.
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 08:01 PM	I really do like the idea of the whole wizard but not a wizard thing. Sounds really interesting to me. P.S. I'm not sure if I take arcane spell failure from armor for using scrolls. Anyone wanna help with that?
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 08:04 PM	Well thats good to know its the children playing is what is making this game so funky. monkadin is right talk to the new players. Even though they are new I am SURE they feel somthing is up. When I took DnD up again my DM was a control freak. I might not have known in game terms why it was bad but I did know it. I left the game and got a new one with one of the other players in the old game. Now I have the best group I could ever want. Also if you dont have time to sleep play divine, they only need 1 hour of meditation to get spells no rest is required. Also no spellbook. Anyways I am sure you can think of a way to kill your character if you wanted to. LOL scout ahead and alone attack something that you have no chance at. Jump of a cliff. LOL if your an ass attack your group, but it's better to ask them to kill you imo. If they say no attack them LOL. Dont kill them, if they get seriously hurt move onto a different character that isnt. Like I said it's an ass move and DM might kick you out for it but it is his fault for not giving you any options. Talk to your DM if he says no then move onto your group, if they say no then use your last resort. Then tell your DM that you tried every other option before this but something had to be done.
dragonseth 05-15-06, 08:07 PM	I'm telling you: Honorable Sacrifice. If need be, play up the whole 'Go, I'll hold him off!' thing. If you sacrifice your life to save that of your allies, it plays up to Good alignment, and you have a good reason. :D
monkadin 05-15-06, 08:08 PM	Try training as a monk. Your stats fit perfectly.
monkadin 05-15-06, 08:12 PM	monkadin is right. Thank you. I feel warm and fuzzy inside now.
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 08:17 PM	A monk sounds pretty good. I think I will take two levels of fighter while we are out in the wilderness, and pray to my god asking her how I can help the cause of good more. *This is all part of my backstory too* The goddess will reply you must embrace the teachings of your father instead of shunning them. They are his only gift to you. *Father was a fighter/monk who is now dead* I bet I could pull it off. Just to irk the DM I should later ask what else I could do to improve myself and help to spread good around the world. Goddess's answer is such. You must learn humility. Every morning you must beg for your food. Every night you must sleep on the ground. You must forsake all material possesions and discard you mistrust to become more disciplined. The above is also known as Vow of Poverty. :D Vow of Poverty would do well for me because my DM seems to be stingy with the Magic items. We never know what the magic items that we do get are because we never have any down time to find out. I have once been tenth level without knowing if my daggers were +1 or +5 keen daggers.
Merestil Haye 05-15-06, 08:24 PM	Just in case you still feel like going the "I'm a Wizard" route, yes you do suffer ASF chances activating scrolls in combat. From the SRDActivate the Spell Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.(Bolding mine.)
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 08:27 PM	Thanks for the Scroll clarification. Anyone else want to chime in?
monkadin 05-15-06, 08:35 PM	Chime!
King_Bulba 05-15-06, 08:36 PM	I'm telling you: Honorable Sacrifice. If need be, play up the whole 'Go, I'll hold him off!' thing. If you sacrifice your life to save that of your allies, it plays up to Good alignment, and you have a good reason. :D NICE if you can find a situation where you can do it though, doubt you will find on with this DM.
pres_man 05-15-06, 09:19 PM	Cast divine scrolls while in armor (no armor check penalty for divine).
BobtheBiotitan 05-15-06, 09:24 PM	Ah but Mr Dm's son the cleric wants to have people depend on him, so all divine things go his way or else Mr Dm's son 2 the Barbarian goes "Hulk smash your face for item." I could always buy some scrolls. Hmmmmmm... What would I enjoy more. A mass magic item freak or a rogue/monk Vow of Poverty. I'm gonna go the Magic route. For the price of leaving my armor at home I can cast aracane spell divine spells and use basically any item. That along with a decent combat ability makes the character complete for me. Anyone want to suggest anything different for me? I'm open to all options.
dragonseth 05-15-06, 09:27 PM	Anyone want to suggest anything different for me? I'm open to all options. Teenage angst? 'Life is pain.' *schink* New char. :P
tiercel 05-15-06, 10:29 PM	If you are playing a rogue and you want your character to die, it shouldn't be that hard. Charge into melee with the biggest melee enemy in the room. Even, and especially, if it cannot be sneak attacked. "Forget" to tell your cleric when you are still wounded from the last battle. When you charge into the next battle, wait until the DM's roll actually drops your character to give any sort of status report at all if not specifically asked. Don't be paranoid about checking for traps. Even on the giant leaden rune-encrusted double doors that lead to the BBEG's Main Lair. Roll "poorly" on Search, and especially Disable Device checks. If the DM refuses to let you die from traps, don't waste any more ranks on these skills, they aren't doing anything for you anyway. I mean seriously -- why were you "forced" to play a rogue in a campaign where you can't sneak attack and traps don't matter? Blah. If nothing else, go all social skills. Get your Diplomacy score into the stratosphere and force your DM to read the Diplomacy skill rules as written -- and every time you go first in the battle, use your Diplomacy to make everyone your friend. Eventually the other players will demand that you be allowed to change your character so they can fight something. Tongue in cheek suggestions aside, really you should talk to the DM and tell him you aren't happy with the current shape of the game. Ask him whether he will make an exception for you BECAUSE the current campaign is so anti-rogue, or whether he will collude with you in allowing character death so you can create a new character, or whether you, frankly, would be happier not playing in this game.
danielinthewolvesden 05-15-06, 11:20 PM	From the Mini Handbook there's the Darkskull Hunter PrC or something like that. It allows you to Sneak attack Undead!! Sounds perfect for this game. You'll need a level of cleric. Which is cool becuase Cleric has opposite Good saves than you, and you can cherrypick two spiffy Domains which are more or less feats. Not to mention that casting a couple spells ain't gonna hurt as well as the huge number of wand options this opens up.
kelvinaw273 05-16-06, 04:44 AM	You could always try expanding on your character background: You were originally apprenticed to a wizard, but he died prematurely owing a great deal of money and you were thrown out on the streets and had to use your wits to survive. You still have an old spell-book of his, and have recently started to study again. Seriously, though, if you aren't enjoying the game and your DM (and his sons) is actually intimidating you then it is time to quit this group. Hook up with your other players and ask them what they want to do ... then find a few extra players and do it!
King_Bulba 05-16-06, 04:58 AM	You could always try expanding on your character background: You were originally apprenticed to a wizard, but he died prematurely owing a great deal of money and you were thrown out on the streets and had to use your wits to survive. You still have an old spell-book of his, and have recently started to study again. Seriously, though, if you aren't enjoying the game and your DM (and his sons) is actually intimidating you then it is time to quit this group. Hook up with your other players and ask them what they want to do ... then find a few extra players and do it! Best advice so far...
BobtheBiotitan 05-16-06, 07:16 AM	That is where you people have misunderstood. I posted earlier "How should I approach him about this? Naturally I'm intimidated because he is big and i'm not so big." The guy isn't too intimidating. If I do get intimidated than that is my fault. The guy is really nice and open, but he has plain rejected my questions in the past. Anyways, I just found out something really cool. Next level I will take a level of sorcerer. My two feats change as follows. Magical Aptitude for my level one feat. Practiced spellcaster as my level 3 feat. I will have to change around some skills, but since I haven't used any of them. :rolleyes: So heres the good stuff. At 5th level I take fighter. Bonus feat is Two weapon fighting. 6th level brings me to Wild mage. How do I qualify for wild mage you ask? My caster level is that of a 5th level mage thanks to practiced spellcaster. My 6th level feat is Craft wand which I qualify for due to practiced spellcaster. After 6th level I will go wildmage up to 16th. My feats go like this 9th-Double Wand Wielder 12-Reckless Wand Wilder 15th and beyond ? Whatcha think? I bet they made a change in an FAQ somewhere that makes all of this totally illegal. If so please tell me. I almost forgot. Though I wont be able to cast high level spells, due to my low cha, I can still access them through scrolls which means I can create wands for spells. Does charasma from a cloak of charisma allow me to cast higher level spells? I thnk my ability increases will go into cha as well.
Free1983 05-16-06, 08:01 AM	Oy, I thought your intitial problem was that you couldn't multiclass. Then what are you babbling about wild mage, fighter, sorceror. Seems like your problem is solved.
Missing Minds 05-16-06, 08:39 AM	With the mention of undead and constructs, and the fact you are allowed to multi class.. I'm really suprised no one has mentioned feats Razor Strike and Arcane strike, let alone the first level spell what was it... Grave Strike spell? While you won't have the hit points, you'll be able to mow through undead and constructs that way. Providing you have spells.
b3jsd73jfx 05-17-06, 12:02 PM	My caster level is that of a 5th level mage thanks to practiced spellcaster I don't believe that's true. If I understand it correctly, you just cast spells at a higher level than you normally should. Your caster level is not actually changed. And you want a new character? You're a rogue and you're about to go into an orc camp. You "scout ahead" and when you see the orcs just run up to them. Attack a couple of them, and then just lay down. Almost everything will hit you, you get no evasion, you're screwed. Don't get up, EVER!
ZUL_HELLBRINGER 05-20-06, 03:25 AM	Well if your group to still be able to find and disable traps, why not try the artificer from Eberron? with decent spellcasting powers and versatile abilities, it might do the trick.
Merestil Haye 05-20-06, 08:07 AM	I don't believe that's true. If I understand it correctly, you just cast spells at a higher level than you normally should. Your caster level is not actually changed.The general principle is that when an effect (be it a feat, spell, item or whatever) increases an aspect of a character the increase is valid for all purposes that the effect itself does not explicitly exclude. Practiced Spellcaster only excludes the learning and casting of spells. Therefore it should indeed increase caster level for such purposes as qualifying for prestige classes and feats. One problem I can see though; Practiced Spellcaster has a prerequisite. At level 3, did you meet that prereq, or do you do so now only because of later class levels? Your DM may rule that you cannot spend your 3rd level feat on a feat that you could not meet the prereqs for at the time, and at 3rd level you did not (could not, in fact) meet the feat's prereqs. You could always take 2-weapon fighting and postpone Practiced Spellcaster until 6th level. That delays your long-term plans a while, but it can still be done.
RogerWilco 05-20-06, 07:44 PM	Practiced Spellcaster is nice, but I would not let you qualify for Wild mage with it. I think two nice suggestions might be Daggerspell mage and Daggerspell shaper. The Practiced Spellcaster would still help you in both cases.
Pangeon 05-21-06, 01:17 PM	You have the INT, if you feel like shelling out for a Player's Handbook II (a worthwile investment, IMO,) you could multiclass to Begulier. Read: Spontanious (i.e. no spellbooks,) spellcaster based off of INT. Also, you're still tricky like a rogue. That solves you're "I would be a sucky sorcerer" problem. Oh, and, to say what everyone else has been saying, TALK TO THE DM.
Ryusage 05-21-06, 02:50 PM	you could go sorcerer, with the proper magic items to boost your CHA...
Bryarr 05-22-06, 03:32 AM	Grapple. Everything. Initiating a grapple provokes an AO. Rd 1: Try to grapple the orc, Provoke AO, fail the grapple. Rd 2: rinse, repeat. You should die pretty darn quick. And if you DON'T die, then keep pushing the envelope. Scout rooms ahead and take on bad guys all by yourself, wantonly run past traps, etc. See how far you can push it before your DM railroads you. =P Jon
CriminalTruth 05-22-06, 12:59 PM	you can use my feat tree if you want and become a two weapon fighter of insain goodness :p think spring attack and twp :P take lvls of fighter and forget about the whole " sneak thing " screw that... what i did was this dodge mobility twin blade style twf tw defense spring attack ( in the complete adven i think it is? is a 5 lvl presitge class designed for 2wf that takes it further ) ... in the end at lvl 10 you end up with 5 lvls rogue 5 lvls fighter + 5 or so dodge bonus ( i forget dont have the books here .. ) combat experties increases it to pretty much whatever you want... now the only trick is simple.... make sure you only need a 15 or higher to hit... keep them at 20 or higher to hit ( combat experties ) fient .. sneak attack for like... 6d6 dmg... not to mention you always make them lose their dex bonus for the party..... if your flanking you can do even more... ( something like..... 18d6 a round ) if you hit 3 times and use just plain short swords... personally i like flavor .. so go like... war hammer / hand ax :P i really forget the name of the prestige class but i know that it lets you apply weapon focus to your off - hand and stuff like that...
dragonseth 05-22-06, 05:16 PM	You're thinking of Tempest, CriminalTruth. It appears in Complete Adventurer, and Masters of the Wild.