Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slider33 03-31-08, 07:06 PM	I need some advice, sympathy, or just someone to listen to my rant. I have to get it off my chest because I feel like I have a once-useful, now useless character in a campaign. My problems are two fold. I can sum it up in one sentence: My cleric is useless in this campaign and the other players are near god-like and don’t need me. Here are the reasons why: 1. My uber friends rarely need healing. We’re a small group of 3. The other 2 are uber. I end up having to heal myself. 2. haven’t encountered undead except for 1 small side quest very early in the campaign, which we easily overcame (due to my turning of course). 3. Clerics have few skills, and all the support buff/debuff spells aren't really needed. 4. what spells I DO have NEVER, EVER seem to work! Every charm person (I’m a charm domain cleric) spell, or domain spell I have EVER cast has never worked. I have a very high WIS. Blindness/deafness, charm, curse, hold person, you name it. The monsters/opponents pass their save EVERY TIME. I have yet to ever have one of these spells “stick” and it’s really aggravating. This was the whole reason I specialized in this type of magic. It’s proved nothing more than useless spells, and I don’t have that many to cast to boot. 5. my companions never have this problem. They are primarily damage dealing types, don’t require save throws for their stuff to have affect. One is a magic type too, I'll get to that later. 6. I'm specialized in healing, and the rest of my abilities pale in comparison to theirs. 7. I’m slower in combat (full plate), and have no DEX so I can’t use ranged weapons effectively 8. Can’t do much melee damage, enemies are dead before I can even get there (other 2 kill em quick) 9. I try to make up for my lack of usefulness by roleplay and using clever tactics, but this hasn’t paid off. I have low INT and thus no skills to use outside of combat. When in combat I often have to break out total defense just to survive. 10. I have masterwork full plate and decent equip, but no magic items (at level 6). Even with my AC of 20 I’m still getting POUNDED!!! This expensive full plate has done absolutely nothing for me, and I have a heavy shield. Companions have cheaper equipment, no magic items and don’t sweat battle. 11. My full plate seems to not be enough protection for me, and has hurt me more than helped. My armor check penalty has hurt me several times. It is next to worthless, and cost me every dime I have. For the record, I am a level 6 human cleric, with PHB 2 divine feats (healing feats) Having said that. Let me introduce you to my two companions, who never seem to break a sweat: Player 1: (Keep in mind this guy forgets the rules to his character (I suspect on purpose) This is a problem all by itself). He plays a half-giant soulknife (half giant, lvl 5 soulknife) (who doesn’t play the class correctly and misses a lot of rules). Not only can he cut a swath of destruction, he does so with impunity. His high strength is out of this world, and he can manifest his bastard-sword sized mind blade instantly. (Yes, “the rules” often get ignored with this one. No one really knows the psionics rules well enough to keep him in check). When I look them up after the game, I get a sick feeling when I discover abuses after the fact. Things slip by every session, and it happens every time. Player 2: human Binder (tome of magic) (level 6 binder). He has feats that allow him to summon vestiges beyond his current level normally would allow. He also seems to be able to bind on-the-fly now, without having to figure it out ahead of time. I have no clue how binders work. I have to trust that the player and the DM know what they’re doing. From what I gather, everything he does seems to be legit with the binder, however I am VERY skeptical of this class being balanced, at least it hasn’t been balanced since day 1 of this campaign. So, I’m starting to feel like I missed the boat big time. I should have jumped on the bandwagon and rolled up a Pun Pun too. I chose a cleric because I decided to be the ‘dutiful’ one and pick a class that would be very much needed in a party of 6. And to be honest, I was greatly valued at the time when we had a party of 6. The cleric was a smart decision on my part. I was satisfied with playing a support character as long as my “support” was needed. After a year or so, the group has been whittled down to a party of three. In a group of 6 my skills were very much in demand. In a group of 3 (including me) the other 2 don’t need my help (see ‘uber’ comments above). For the record, they’ve rarely, if ever, needed my healing since the beginning. I have essentially become obsolete. The cool spells that I do have never work. The DM is forced to increase the difficulty due to the other two power players, so all the baddies shrug off my spell DC's. My healing abilities are 100% dedicated to healing myself, because my full plate armor apparently sucks. I have no skills and can’t do damage, and everyone’s dead before I get a chance to make my attack. (My init sucks too). I feel like the 3rd wheel, and I literally am. Granted, I have a very cool and in-depth character for RP’ing, but all the RP in the world isn’t helping me right now. What should I say? What should I propose to the DM? I hate losing all that deep character development I’ve built upon over several months in this campaign. There has to be some options, right? Please help.
WilliamTanner 03-31-08, 07:26 PM	I don't think you'll ever enjoy the game when one or more players are cheating. Maybe you can suggest a Cod Piece of Male Enhancement for their next magic item aquisition.
Guardian1 03-31-08, 07:46 PM	Okay, here's what I gleaned, as well as a few suggestions. 1.It seems that one of your main problems lie in the fact that the half-gant character is missing a lot of rules. I would suggest that everyone in your group, DM included, become familiar with the soulknife class in particular, as well as the rules for psionics in general. Even with the various fixes made in edition transition, psionics still have a rep for being "ZOMG!!!BROKEZORRS!". 2. It seems that you don't know the rules for binders, so my suggestion for this one is the same as the first. 3. This is focused on you, now. I'm not familiar with the power that comes from the Charm domain, so I can't say anything about that. However, reconsider your assesment of the buff spells. After all, they either make it easier for your buddies to hit the bad guys, or they make harder for the bad guys to hit your buddies. Either one will up the chances of success, and that's no small thing. A well-timed buff can drastically change a situation. 4. Here's my final reccomendation. I would ask the DM if you can multiclass as a swordsage, from the ToB. They aren't proficient with heavy or medium armor, but that doesn't matter because they get a wisdom bonus to AC starting at second level. As a cleric, I'm assuming you have good wisdom. They also get some interesting abilities that increase their attack bonus and damage ouput. Plus, they get a wider selection of weapons than clerics do, which could help out. Finally, depending on the discipline you choose, any opponent could get really messed up by you alone. Don't lose hope.
Dracosis 03-31-08, 07:54 PM	The problem is that the rules are not being enforced. Your first priority should be to talk to your DM. If that fails leave. In fact you may find that the disregard for the rules and munchkinism was real reason why the game went from six to three in the first place.
Braithwaite 03-31-08, 07:57 PM	1. See if you can retrain away from the healing feats. A cleric 6 doesn't need them. You would be better with combat feats or feats that help your other spells. Healing is a useful side skill for a cleric, very rarely something to do in battle. Even Craft Wands and the manufacture of a wand of cure light wounds is more useful than the healing feats. 2. You are potentially the most powerful character in the party. Don't shift out of cleric, that will only slow down your uberness. If you can't make monsters fail their saves, as suggested, go with buffs to make your other party members do more damage. If your DM allows it, retrain your feats to Extend Spell, Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic Persistent. That will ensure a respectable showing in even the most twinked out group of characters.
CrimsonDeath 03-31-08, 09:00 PM	At level 5, a Soulknife should be able to manifest his blade as a Swfit action (the Free Draw class ability). Since you haven't mentioned anything else specific that he might be doing wrong, I can't tell you whether or not he's actually doing them wrong. Binders don't need rest to bind a vestige, but I believe it does take a full minute. And once he binds a vestige, he's stuck with it for 24 hours unless he has teh Expel Vestige feat. For you, I'd suggest buffing yourself. Get to at least level 7 as a Cleric; that gives you Divine Power and Greater Magic Weapon. For now, you have Magic Vestment, which can boost your AC a bit, and Divine Favor, which will boost your attack and damage a bit. You might ask your DM about feat retraining or even character rebuilding; you're approaching the point when a Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell cleric really starts to take off.
Demetri_Knighthawk 03-31-08, 09:20 PM	clerics are a slow progession class, plodding along is a test of faith for the cleric, but come back at 16th level and the other two will be doing about as good as 6th level, you on the other hand will be tearing through the baddies en masse, remember that if you worship a diety with some elemental in their portfolio, you can turn the opposing element like undead. (dwarven priests of the all-father turn air elementals as easily as zombies) Ask your DM for more undead, smart undead. Let the two others swim in the zombies while you have a cool duel with the vampire leader mano-e-mano, leveled to you for a personal challenge.
Kuros81 03-31-08, 10:19 PM	Buff your fellow players and enjoy the ride. Your post is a bit too "ME ME ME" for my liking, but I do get the sense that the group as a whole is like that. This happens. Keep playing support. Do you have some of the cleric spells from other books (like spell compendium)? Try to glean the most effective spells. Lastly, I'm VERY skeptical that it will stay as bad as it is now. The opponents will not always be succeeding against your saves.
Lormador 03-31-08, 10:50 PM	Apparently your DM allows psionics, so go find an NPC to Psychic Reform you. Just put in Divine Metamagic, and if you don't feel like Extended into Persistent, try Quicken or Twin. Persistent spell is obviously the best, your buffs last all day, but if you're in the mood to blow stuff up, I find DMM: Quicken or Twin or both satisfies the craving. You really don't need the Healing feats, sorry to say. It was a trap! Keep after the DM with the rules mistakes. Eventually you'll all learn the funky classes, and those violations (which may be innocent) vanish. But seriously, take it over to the CO boards if you aren't sure. Clerics are AMAZING. Soulknife is not considered to be top shelf. Binders I'm not familiar with, but they get some respect. Let the DM know your complaints, and if he lets you rebuild a little, you'll start to pick up steam. Hey, look on the bright side. You could be playing something REALLY useless!
Deathless_One 03-31-08, 11:07 PM	My current character is a cleric who is level 20, and he started out at around your level. And trust me, the feeling of uselessness is there for a while... but goes away once you get into plane hopping (if your DM plans for you to hop planes a lot). At 6th level, I didn't do much besides cast bless and try to take a few swings at a monster. All my other spells were pretty damn useless because no one got hit... except for me, of course. I healed myself and stuck through with it. When my group starting plane hopping, I was the number 1 guy in the group. I always had to plane shift here, plane shift there, and plane shift some more the next day. Plane Shifting set aside, clerics really begin to work their magic (quite literally) at around 12th level. This is when you get super amazing buff spells: These are some of the spells I suggest to make your party love you: 4th level - Shield of Faith, Mass. Works like Shield of Faith, but affects one target per 2 levels, I believe. Divine Power - Gives you a Base Attack Bonus equal to your character (not caster) level, basically that means you gain the base attack bonus of a fighter of your character level. Also gives a +6 enhancement bonus to strength. Oh yeah, also gives you temporary hit points equal to your caster level. 5th level - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. This is possibly the greatest 5th level spell I laid my eyes on. It affects you and all allies within a 30ft radius of you, and it gives everyone an extra melee attack per round at their highest base attack bonus AND gives a +3 morale bonus to attack and damage. Righteous Might - Makes you grow a size category larger, giving you a +4 size bonus to strength - yes, it stacks with Divine Power's strength bonus - and a +2 size bonus to constitution, and also +4 to natural armour. With the casting of all these spells, you yourself become a combat MACHINE and also buff up your allies pretty decently as well. Forget charms, killing enemies is a much quicker and easier method than controlling them. However, bear in mind also killing isn't always the best answer, either... I know you're not able to cast these spells yet, but stick out the cleric for 6 more levels.... and you will shine. Prepare healing spells and usual for now, but try to put in some room for Weapon of the Deity (3rd Level spell) which will give your weapon (if favored weapon of your deity) a +1 magic bonus. All in all... the cleric class is amazing, do not be discouraged at lower levels, because you will outshine your comrades often at higher levels.
Slider33 03-31-08, 11:08 PM	I guess I should probably explain the kind of game situation we're in, it plays a big factor. We've been playing this campaign for over a year and a half now. We progress *very* slowly. We're only just now level 6. It has been a low level campaign. We get to play once every couple of months in long marathon sessions (which is not as frequent as we'd like) We started at level 1. It's safe to say that progression in levels will only get longer as we get higher levels, even level 10 can be several months away if we're lucky. It's not like we're switching adventures or modules from time to time, so I feel like I've been a pretty good trooper all this time. I feel like I should have picked a class that is a little more independent. I guess last session was kind of a last straw and I felt I had to rant. I'm tired of my spells not being effective, I don't get a chance to cast many. I'm tired of the same dude who's had the same character for 1+ years and STILL doesn't know how to play it properly, and uses our lack of psionics knowledge to his advantage. I guess that's why it's aggravating, after all this time in a plot-heavy campaign it's not like I can just toss my guy out the window.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-31-08, 11:09 PM	I'd be very interested to know under what circumstances the other 3 players left your group.
EvilCouch 03-31-08, 11:18 PM	Uh, you're a spell-caster, dude. You want to get into combat? Buff up and do it. An AC of 20 with masterwork full plate and a heavy shield means you don't have a DEX bonus. No problem. Shield of Faith is good for 6 minutes of +3 Deflection bonus. Magic Vestment's good for another +2 Enchantment bonus. You're now at AC 25. Attacks should start clanging off your armor now. Want to hit more often/harder? Bless, Divine Favor, Prayer, Bull Strength are your new best friends. Get another level and add Divine Favor to that last. Get two more on top of that and swap out Bull Strength for Righteous Might. A 9th level cleric can self buff into +12 to attack and +8 to damage and 30 extra hit points. Never mind that you can pop Spiritual Weapon repetitively. Want a cloud of your deity's favored weapon pounding the crap out of your opponent? Do it! Don't want to get into melee? Searing Light. Hey, look, you have your own version of Scorching Ray now. Mix in splat books and you can get the Light of (deity's name here) series of spells, which give you an appropriate level ray attack for most spell levels. Blast to your heart's content. Since all these ray attacks require touch attacks, you hit most things on a roll of 6 or better. And there's no saving throw. Clerics have over 100 spells in the Player's Handbook. Only 9 of them start with Cure. You have options. Use them.
Slider33 03-31-08, 11:20 PM	Well, the other players leaving didn't leave on bad terms necessarily. One was a girl brand new to the game, she never really got that into it I guess. The other 2 were boyfriend and girlfriend, and had a bit of a falling out with some others in my group. So now we're left with just the 3 of us.
Slider33 03-31-08, 11:44 PM	By the way, thanks for all the helpful hints, they are all very helpful. It seems I have overlooked some very important spells that I need to start using. I'll concentrate on buffing myself for next time. As far as the soulknife goes, he tried to give himself a greatsword mind-blade. I had to call him out on that one. however, he was manifesting the bastard sword mind blade as a swift action, which I believe takes a full round. We missed this one every time. Also, I'm skeptical of his attack/damage rolls but they are always big numbers. He also attempted a psychic strike without first gaining psionic focus. I catch most of them during the game, but theres so many I'm sure many other slip through. Oh yeah, he also thought he was entitled to a feat when he wasn't. I think I've lost patience for this sort of thing and that's probably what led me to this rant. I'm having to really dig deep to even be a relevant factor in and out of combat. So when I'm shorting myself on not playing the cleric optimally, it's frustrating. I tend to memorize dispel and restoration spells, which take up my spell slots for something else. And after hearing the feedback from everyone, I think it's a big given that I should re-spec my feats immediately.
Deathless_One 04-01-08, 12:00 AM	Remember, metamagic feats are your friend. Being a human, you should have 4 feats to choose from at 6th level. Personally, my two bestest friends other than the 20th level fighter and 10th level Deathbringer/10th level Blackguard I have as meat shields are my maximize metamagic feat coupled with divine metamagic (maximize). Another feat that would be good for this duo is Extra Turning, as it gives you more turn/rebuke attempts to throw into divine metamagic. Of course, you don't have to take maximize spell. An extremely popular choice in the matter would be persist spell... effectly letting your buffs last all day if need be. Finally, a fourth and final feat that would be good for a cleric... something along the lines of Spell Focus (school) would be good, or god forbid, improved intitave you so can get those buff spells up before baddies have a chance to smack you around.
Slider33 04-01-08, 12:31 AM	So where can I find these divine metamagic feats? Are they in the SRD 3.5 -> divine? Or are there some others in other source materials?
Zillah 04-01-08, 12:36 AM	crystalkeep.com it has everything in every book. and its all search able as well. use it as a reference though, always check the books
Etarnon 04-01-08, 12:39 AM	OP, from your post, you sound like you'd be a very good, careful, balanced DM of your own campaign, that follows the rules, and is not Uber. Good luck, let us know how it goes.
CrimsonDeath 04-01-08, 03:44 AM	As far as the soulknife goes, he tried to give himself a greatsword mind-blade. I had to call him out on that one. however, he was manifesting the bastard sword mind blade as a swift action, which I believe takes a full round. We missed this one every time. Also, I'm skeptical of his attack/damage rolls but they are always big numbers. He also attempted a psychic strike without first gaining psionic focus. I catch most of them during the game, but theres so many I'm sure many other slip through. Oh yeah, he also thought he was entitled to a feat when he wasn't. I think I've lost patience for this sort of thing and that's probably what led me to this rant. It takes a full round to shape the mind blade into its bastard sword shape the first time, but once that's done, it should still be in bastard sword shape each time he remanifests it (assuming he hasn't spent a full round changing it back to something else). As for his damage, the DM may have house ruled that his Powerful Build racial trait allows him to manifest a Large mind blade rather than a Medium one. According to the rules, that's not technically the way it works, but the general consensus on the Psionics board is that the Soulknife is weak enough that it probably won't hurt anything. He doesn't need psionic focus for a psychic strike, although he does need to spend a move action charging it. Also, unless he has a negative Constitution modifier, he shouldn't have any problems gaining psionic focus when he wakes up in the morning (while you're praying for spells) or at the end of an encounter. That's assuming he has something to expend it on (Psionic Weapon?) in the middle of combat. I tend to memorize dispel and restoration spells, which take up my spell slots for something else. That's one of the great things about being a Cleric. You have access to your entire spell list, so if you find out you're not using certain spells very often, stop preparing them. So where can I find these divine metamagic feats? Are they in the SRD 3.5 -> divine? Or are there some others in other source materials? Most Divine feats are in either Complete Divine or Complete Warrior. Divine Metamagic is in Complete Divine. The metamagic feat Persistent Spell is in Complete Arcane.
MadPrak_Mark2 04-01-08, 03:46 PM	I would suggest roleplaying your character's disillusionment with his god and turning to a more lethal one, possibly even switching alignments. If you don't mind necromancy or evil characters, get a wagon, have an npc caster make it a wondrous Wagon of Repose, and start loading the bodies of fallen enemies into it as animation fodder. Clerics can get pretty damn powerful, you just have to wade through a few crappy levels, or optimize from the start. Or you can essentially retrain. If you decide to switch gods, you will have to go and get an Atonement spell cast by a cleric of the god you wish to switch to.
Cartigan 04-01-08, 03:52 PM	7. I’m slower in combat (full plate), and have no DEX so I can’t use ranged weapons effectively Zen archery.
Slider33 04-01-08, 10:46 PM	These are all really good tips and information. I'll have to take some time and digest it. I was seriously considering re-rolling a new PC, which is something I wanted to avoid. I have renewed faith in the cleric class. Pun not intended. I think my DM would be more than okay with letting me change my specification. Heck, maybe it'll be a good roleplay opportunity, which I hope it is.
NordicBirch 04-02-08, 04:46 AM	Ruby Knight Vindicator from ToB might be to your liking. You could make a Clr4/Crusader1/RKV1 at your current level. Better BAB and hitpoints, Martial Manouvers, healing through striking etc. You'll end up with 9th level spells and over 16 BAB by 20th level.
Varia 04-02-08, 10:41 AM	If youre planning on ladling on the cleric cheese with divine metamagic (and I've done it myself, so carry on. :) ), then kill whoever you have to for a nightstick (or lots of nightsticks, if your DM is foolish enough to let you use more than one), and get at least one, preferably several, rings of counterspells, and keep them loaded with dispel magic to protect your buffs. Seek a (reasonable, I think) ruling from your DM that a ring loaded with greater dispel magic will also counter regular dispel magic. If you can get away with it you may find that some levels in the church inquisitor PrC would be good for you- lots of nice passive resistances in there- being immune to charms and compulsions and getting an automatic saving throw whenever you see an illusion are all right handy. It may cost you some undead-turning ability, but if you arent seeing any undead anyway... Notes for righteous might (I think it is)- It does give you the natural ac boost, but there is a 1ac penalty for size too, so dont forget to include that. But on the plus side, it increases your size. Make sure to up your weapon damage by the appropriate amount, and remember that you should now have a 10' reach. Its handy. :) People have mentioned greater magic weapon- I prefer spikes myself, from the spell compendium (and I think complete divine)- it tops out at +2 to hit, but +TEN damage. *THWACK* I used a custom-made ironwood morningstar for my cleric-cheese venture, to get the wooden weapon the spell requires. It cost a bit more, but clubs are for losers. :P And if youre bored you can greater magic weapon on top of it when youre high enough level to get its better to hit bonus, although its probably not worth the spell slot. They mentioned the group deflection buff spell- check the text on that one- it *may* only affect people of the same religion as your cleric, I'm not sure. Best to be sure though. Other higher priority purchases- the gloves (? Maybe ring?) from magic item compendium that gives your wielded weapon alchemical silver properties. I spent a lot of time hacking through vampires damage resistance the hard way because I wasnt using silver, and it applies to other things than undead so its worth having if you can get it. Death ward enchantments on your armor and shield. Mithril full plate ups the max dex bonus for the armor type by 2 or 3, which gives you room to add a dex-boosting item to your equipment in the long run, if you care. Cohort- if they exist in your campaign and youre interested in one then I cant recommend a beguiler enough when the time comes. Haste every bleeping fight, and displacement/freedom of movement when needed for the win. Sudden etherealness on the person with freshly inserted mindflayer tentacles in his ears etc is gold too. (My cheese occured in CotSQ, so I speak from experience). Glitterdust, glibness, seeming, trap-monkey/trap-monkey assistant is all good stuff too.
Dag 04-02-08, 02:28 PM	Buff your character all you want, it wont end the frustration you get from having to sit there and watch 2/3 of your party cheat their way through every encounter. From now on don't correct them, call them out; tell them they're cheating and they've been cheating for over a year now and your f******g fed up with it. Tell the DM to grow a sac of nuts and run the game right or to vacate his seat and let someone with half a brain take over. The guy's been shrugging off the cheating of the other players for a long time or else he's just so colossally stupid that he hasn't caught on yet - so inform him; let the group know that a year and a half of playing third fiddle to a couple of chronic cheaters and their DM stooge has soured you on the game and if things don't change you'll walk. And, given the DM's crappy handling of the other players I'd be willing to bet that he's fudging the rolls for the creatures against your spells. A year and a half of game play and a monster has never failed one of your saves?! That is such a crock, there's no way to explain that other than cheating; if you stay in the group I would let the DM know that you no longer have a reason to trust him or his rolls and request he make rolls in front of the players. A DM cheating rolls behind the screen for no good reason is about the most pathetic piece of garbage that could possibly foul a gaming table. Follow the example of your three former mates and walk away. These three idiots deserve each other and no one else.
Enlightened1 04-02-08, 02:48 PM	Buff your character all you want, it wont end the frustration you get from having to sit there and watch 2/3 of your party cheat their way through every encounter. From now on don't correct them, call them out; tell them they're cheating and they've been cheating for over a year now and your f******g fed up with it. Tell the DM to grow a sac of nuts and run the game right or to vacate his seat and let someone with half a brain take over. The guy's been shrugging off the cheating of the other players for a long time or else he's just so colossally stupid that he hasn't caught on yet - so inform him; let the group know that a year and a half of playing third fiddle to a couple of chronic cheaters and their DM stooge has soured you on the game and if things don't change you'll walk. And, given the DM's crappy handling of the other players I'd be willing to bet that he's fudging the rolls for the creatures against your spells. A year and a half of game play and a monster has never failed one of your saves?! That is such a crock, there's no way to explain that other than cheating; if you stay in the group I would let the DM know that you no longer have a reason to trust him or his rolls and request he make rolls in front of the players. A DM cheating rolls behind the screen for no good reason is about the most pathetic piece of garbage that could possibly foul a gaming table. Follow the example of your three former mates and walk away. These three idiots deserve each other and no one else. Dag, I wish you'd stop beatng around the bush and tel us what you *really * think! ;) Not that I disagree. While I might be more diplomatic about it, I think this is the key to the situation. If Slider33's descriptions are accurate, then there's way too much munchkinning and outright cheating going on, and they need to be called on it. All the minmaxing in the world, while it's good advice, ain't gonna help in a world of cheaters. Calling for open-table rolling by the GM seesm like a very reasonable request, and bringing a book and looking the psionics up during play is also perfectly reasonable - in fact, you could even have mister uberpsi guy point to the rules he's invoking and reading them on the spot; after all, if he knows the rules, he should be willing to teach others in his party how they work. Frankly, if the situation allows, I'd start looking for another group. Even an occasional game with others can refresh one's perspective. And you don't have to quit the current group, though if there's much resistance to these suggestions, I'd jump if at all possible.
weepingminotaur 04-02-08, 03:51 PM	Your game will never be enjoyable as long as your DM allows players to cheat with impunity, no matter how much you optimize your cleric.
Jaamus 04-02-08, 04:07 PM	Now I am by no means sure of this, but based on the posts you have made about your spells, it seems to me like you have a set list(like a wizard) not the whole list that you choose from every day? Just so we're clear, clerics have access to every spell in the list, they choose which ones to pick from each day... is that the case with you or did the DM( or maybe you didn't know) limit you to having a "spell book" of sorts? Clerics are the most kick-ass class around(maybe druids) but certainly in the top 2. get DMM: persist feat, Buff yourself with defense and offense and watch the others gasp in awe as you mow down baddies...
Deathless_One 04-02-08, 07:04 PM	So where can I find these divine metamagic feats? Are they in the SRD 3.5 -> divine? Or are there some others in other source materials? Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Divine Metamagic can be found in the D&D supplement, Complete Divine. Basically, it allows you to spend turn/rebuke attempts to lower the spell slot cost of your metamagic feats. For example, if you take Divine Metamagic (Maximize) and the Maximize spell feat, normally a prepared Maximized Destruction spell would be a 9th level spell, instead of 7th level with a regular destruction. However, with Divine Metamagic (Maximize), you can spend two turning attempts to bring a Maximized Destruction back down to 7th level.
Kuros81 04-02-08, 09:01 PM	Buff your character all you want, it wont end the frustration you get from having to sit there and watch 2/3 of your party cheat their way through every encounter. From now on don't correct them, call them out; tell them they're cheating and they've been cheating for over a year now and your f******g fed up with it. Tell the DM to grow a sac of nuts and run the game right or to vacate his seat and let someone with half a brain take over. The guy's been shrugging off the cheating of the other players for a long time or else he's just so colossally stupid that he hasn't caught on yet - so inform him; let the group know that a year and a half of playing third fiddle to a couple of chronic cheaters and their DM stooge has soured you on the game and if things don't change you'll walk. And, given the DM's crappy handling of the other players I'd be willing to bet that he's fudging the rolls for the creatures against your spells. A year and a half of game play and a monster has never failed one of your saves?! That is such a crock, there's no way to explain that other than cheating; if you stay in the group I would let the DM know that you no longer have a reason to trust him or his rolls and request he make rolls in front of the players. A DM cheating rolls behind the screen for no good reason is about the most pathetic piece of garbage that could possibly foul a gaming table. Follow the example of your three former mates and walk away. These three idiots deserve each other and no one else. I think there are 2 or 3 too many assumptions in this post. Slider33, you need to catch them in the act. Calling them out does no good unless they're actually cheating. If you catch the bad math and/or inflated modifiers, then make the inferrance of habitual cheating. But you need evidence before you call them out. There's no reason to make a fool of yourself unless you have something to show your DM.
Lormador 04-02-08, 09:06 PM	In 19 months of play, has a monster or important NPC ever failed an important roll? Seen any critical misses? These are also telltale signs of fudging, and what you're talking about seems to be even more blatant.
Slider33 04-02-08, 09:39 PM	Heya, I'm definitely going to go pick up the Complete Divine (thanks, by the way to all who have pointed that out). It sounds like my saving grace, for lack of a better word. (I apologize for bad cleric pun) As far as the cheatin' goes--he's very sneaky about it. He rolls the die, picks it up and looks around at all the rest of us before calling out a number. Gawd that sounds bad...but it's really hard to see his actual dice roll results even though it REEKS of fudging. Reeks something fierce. I do keep an eye out as best I can, but he rarely rolls low. Our DM has called him out on it before and requested to see the dice roll results. I think we've always kind of tolerated it and never really want to confront him about it because we only get to play once in a rare while, and we don't want to kill the game. In all honesty, I really wish his brother (the other player) would do us a favor and call him out on it. Next game, I can promise you I will not let it happen again. I've tolerated it for too long. Last session was the last straw, and it doesn't help that the guy was logged into WoW half the time we were playing DnD. Yes...I did leave out that rather large elephant in the room. He was playing WoW while we were playing DnD. So yeah... I was a little ticked.
Slider33 04-02-08, 09:52 PM	In 19 months of play, has a monster or important NPC ever failed an important roll? Seen any critical misses? These are also telltale signs of fudging, and what you're talking about seems to be even more blatant. Yikes....now that I think about it. The answer to both your questions is no.
ElfenLied 04-03-08, 07:43 AM	By the way, could you post your full character? (stats, race, feats, equipment, etc.) This way, we may be able to better help you. As far as I can tell, there are two main factors that impair your gaming experience: a) High power/munchkinism and b) cheating We can't help you much with the latter (you should talk to your GM about that), but we may be able to optimize your character to be on par with the rest, if you wish. First, I'd suggest retraining those healing feats, since they obviously aren't helping you much. You could go Exten Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic(Persist Spell), and at L7, you can persist Divine Power, giving you +6 str and the BAB of a Fighter every day. Then, grab some Nightsticks (they cost about 7,5k each), and start persisting stuff like Divine Favor, Bear's Endurance etc. Also, if your alignment isn't "good", start gathering some black onyx, and animate a retinue of undead followers. A Fire Giant skeleton or a Hydra zombie can go a long way to make your game more enjoyable ;)
Slider33 04-03-08, 10:14 PM	By the way, could you post your full character? (stats, race, feats, equipment, etc.) This way, we may be able to better help you. As far as I can tell, there are two main factors that impair your gaming experience: a) High power/munchkinism and b) cheating We can't help you much with the latter (you should talk to your GM about that), but we may be able to optimize your character to be on par with the rest, if you wish. I posted a tread on the Character Optimization boards, so I'll link to it instead of reposting it all here. HERE (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1011299) I got some very good helpful tips there, and it's a given I'll need to pull from some outside supplemental books (which I have no problem with). As long as the DM OK's it. Speaking of which, I haven't heard back from him yet on "retraining" my guy.
turalisj 04-03-08, 11:15 PM	I'd be very interested to know under what circumstances the other 3 players left your group. Without reading further, I'm guessing it has something to do with the other two player's complete lack of the understanding of the rules.
highbulp 04-03-08, 11:46 PM	As a Binder guy, I thought I'd mention that it sounds like the Binder has the "Rapid Pact Making" feat, which allows him to bind a vestige as a Full-Round action. So if he didn't bind a vestige in the morning, then he could effectively pick a vestige "on the fly." What they're probably ignoring is that this feat only works 1/day. Furthermore, he's stuck with that vestige for 24 hours unless he succeeds on a check to kick it out--again, 1/day. Of course, if you're in an RP heavy game that only has one combat per day and multiple days between combats, then I can see how that's frustrating. But if that's the case, you can feel free to unload your biggest spells in that one-time battle. Watch out for those cheaters. My advice would be, if something happens that seems broken, simply ask "wait, how are you able to do that?" And then get an explanation. And keep questioning it until you understand why it's not "uber." Binders are pretty nice, but they aren't broken. Neither are Soulknives. At least as long as the rules are being followed, that is.
kelvinaw273 04-04-08, 08:34 AM	I have to agree with the other posters here, they are cheating shamelessly. You can call them on it, or walk, or do it so blatantly they HAVE to do something about it. It sounds like your DM is struggling to challenge the party with this cheating, and as the non-cheater you are getting the smelly end of the stick. So get together with your DM and discuss the issues with him face to face. His monsters making their saves against your spells is all he can do to challenge the other two, so work out (a) how the other two are cheating and (b) how to curb them without hurting you.
CrimsonDeath 04-04-08, 02:16 PM	I have to agree with the other posters here, they are cheating shamelessly. I actually don't think we've received sufficient evidence to believe they're cheating at all, much less shamelessly. I've described how a Goliath Soulknife could deal large amounts of damage (at least occasionally), and the OP hasn't accused him of doing anything that is (to my knowledge) explicitly against the rules. Someone else explained how the Binder could (to a limited degree) "bind on the fly", and the OP hasn't confirmed that his game's Binder is doing it more often than it should be possible.
Dag 04-04-08, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by enlightened1Dag, I wish you'd stop beatng around the bush and tel us what you *really * think! Not that I disagree. While I might be more diplomatic about it Yea, I wasn't very diplomatic about it, but when I read that it had been going on for a year and a half it frustrated the heck out of me, and I'm just a neutral observer (an observer anyways, I suppose I'm not very neutral). Slider33 must be some kind of a saint to have tolerated all this crap for so long without losing it. Yea, to those of you crying out that we don't KNOW that these people are cheating just give that a rest. After a year and a half the O.P. knows they're cheating without needing slides or video surveillaince to prove it to us. This isn't a court of law, common sense is more than enough proof in this instance.
CrimsonDeath 04-04-08, 02:58 PM	Yea, to those of you crying out that we don't KNOW that these people are cheating just give that a rest. After a year and a half the O.P. knows they're cheating without needing slides or video surveillaince to prove it to us. This isn't a court of law, common sense is more than enough proof in this instance. Well, if he knows they're cheating, maybe he should tell us specifically what they're doing that's against the rules. So far, everything he's mentioned that he thinks is against the rules might not be, and some of it probably (or even definitely) isn't.
Kuros81 04-04-08, 03:05 PM	Yea, I wasn't very diplomatic about it, but when I read that it had been going on for a year and a half it frustrated the heck out of me, and I'm just a neutral observer (an observer anyways, I suppose I'm not very neutral). Slider33 must be some kind of a saint to have tolerated all this crap for so long without losing it. Yea, to those of you crying out that we don't KNOW that these people are cheating just give that a rest. After a year and a half the O.P. knows they're cheating without needing slides or video surveillaince to prove it to us. This isn't a court of law, common sense is more than enough proof in this instance. With all due respect to Slider33, I don't know him, or his fellow players, and he admits he does not know the rules to his opponents' classes. This does not mean he's wrong, at all, but it does call for some caution. I think Lormador has given some good factors for discerning whether the DM is fudging rolls. Cheating is a serious accusation. There's no reason to alienate other players and possibly the DM in your group unless you have more than a suspicion. You need to have founded concerns at the very least, absent hard proof. But I doubt this will convince you, because I know everything about you from your post on this messageboard: I know that you're intemperate, quick to judge, and generally paranoid. not really
Dag 04-04-08, 03:34 PM	ORiginally posted by Slider33 As far as the cheatin' goes--he's very sneaky about it. He rolls the die, picks it up and looks around at all the rest of us before calling out a number. Gawd that sounds bad...but it's really hard to see his actual dice roll results even though it REEKS of fudging. Reeks something fierce. I do keep an eye out as best I can, but he rarely rolls low. Our DM has called him out on it before and requested to see the dice roll results. I think we've always kind of tolerated it and never really want to confront him about it because we only get to play once in a rare while, and we don't want to kill the game. In all honesty, I really wish his brother (the other player) would do us a favor and call him out on it. Kuros, I'd say that those are "founded concerns" at the very least. Note that slider33 doesn't say "suspected cheatin'" He calls it like it is and doesn't bother with your high and mighty burden of proof nonsense. If the O.P. and the people he plays with know there is cheating then why are you arguing with me about rushing to judgement? Originally posted by Kuros81 Cheating is a serious accusation. There's no reason to alienate other players and possibly the DM in your group unless you have more than a suspicion. You need to have founded concerns at the very least, absent hard proof. But I doubt this will convince you, because I know everything about you from your post on this messageboard: I know that you're intemperate, quick to judge, and generally paranoid. So, our O.P. points out the cheating that even the DM has called the player on, but I'm "paranoid" and "quick to judge" even though it has been going on for a year and a half. So, you tell me, how long does one wait before calling a cheater out without being accused of being paranoid and quick to judge?
Kuros81 04-04-08, 04:55 PM	Note that slider33 doesn't say "suspected cheatin'" He calls it like it is and doesn't bother with your high and mighty burden of proof nonsense. If the O.P. and the people he plays with know there is cheating then why are you arguing with me about rushing to judgement? With all due respect to the OP, we may not do him service by taking him at his word on this issue. You're right, though, that what he has more lately revealed gives us a better sense that these individuals are up to some hijinks. So, our O.P. points out the cheating that even the DM has called the player on, but I'm "paranoid" and "quick to judge" even though it has been going on for a year and a half. My post was ironic, which was way I added 'not really' at the end of my post. I know nothing about you. To call you "paranoid" or "quick to judge" is presumptious. Even more presumptious is for you or anyone of us to call these persons cheaters. So, you tell me, how long does one wait before calling a cheater out without being accused of being paranoid and quick to judge? The huge assumption there is that the person is actually cheating. The OP was not familiar with the soulknife class, so I sent him the class from the SRD in a private message. Now he'll be able to calculate the modifiers. Assuming 18-24 STR, plus magic items plus the attack roll, he'll be able to assess whether the numbers are realistic. One does not wait a year and a half to start asking questions, but one does wait another gaming session to establish with certainty a suspicion that has taken a year and a half to grow.
Exposed_Wires 04-04-08, 05:15 PM	My post was ironic, which was way I added 'not really' at the end of my post. I know nothing about you. To call you "paranoid" or "quick to judge" is presumptious. That 'not really' at the end didn't seem ironic or alter the tone of your post. I'm not sure what you were going for, but it didn't really make any sense. Not that I have any stake in this discussion other than to share sympathy with the OP for having put up with a terrible game for so long, but I figured that as a neutral party, I should let you know that the joke didn't transfer very well. Sorry.
Slider33 04-04-08, 10:43 PM	Hey everybody! I definitely want to be clear on these issues. Originally when I made this post I was pretty fuming mad for the most part, for numerous reasons. So, some of the things I did mention in the original post were colored by such emotions. 1, I was frustrated with a player (said soulknife), and 2: frustrated with my character. My character is at least easily fixable. As far as the Binder goes, I really should have left him out of it altogether. This guy is most certainly not a cheater. I think I was lashing out against this guy simply because his character has been quite powerful since the beginning and is really good at playing his class. I'm always over-skeptical about balance issues, most of which stem from the fact I used to DM (for this bunch) and I've seen a lot of mistakes, rule abuses, and rules *misinterpretation* over the years. Since I don't know anything about Binders I assume some misinterpretations are being made, when I have no proof whatsoever. So, I err on the side of caution and skepticism when I see certain classes and abilities that seem powerful. This is where I went wrong. So that much is my fault. The binder is a good guy and if he breaks any rules I can promise that it is accidental. I feel pretty bad for stringing him up along with the other guy, who most certainly is, and has been, a problem for a long time. I never intended to call the Binder a cheater, merely that I was skeptical of how powerful the guy "seems" to be. Bad assumption on my part, I was lashing out unfairly at him. The DM is a good guy too, and wants the game to be fair. In all honesty, I think he's had to scale up the bad guys to a large degree to keep it challenging for us. My character is definitely feeling the heat, and getting torn up pretty easily in the process. Even my guy with the highest AC has been getting banged up, and I am a very defensive player tactically. I think the enemies are scaled so much that they are, and have been for a long time, shrugging off my spells with ease. That much is obvious. For all of my saved based spells, I've only had one succeed since I started at level 1. So, those are the facts. Here are some more: Now, I'll address the other guy, the soulknife. It's a recurring theme with this guy, no matter what character he chooses. He has, on *many* occasions he has taken many liberties which were not legal, or made the attempt to do so but failed because one of us would catch it, or notice. Both in this campaign and in previous adventures. One in particular left a very bad taste in my mouth with Psionics. It's hard to sum it up, but I was playing a rogue in a group with 2 psions (same people, mind you). No one was really familiar with psionics (it was our first attempt) at the time, but after that game was over nearly every psionics rule was broken, and I was once again holding the smelly end of the stick--while the psions were jedi-godlike, running up walls and throwing powers left and right with reckless abandon. Completely broken, simply because few-if any-rules were being followed appropriately. I did some follow up research after that game, and discovered that almost none of the psionics rules were followed that day. And I was left wondering how they could possibly have that much power. Well, they shouldn't have. So I'm wary of situations that have that same "feel" to it. Yes, there's a little bad blood there and that has colored my judgment, possibly even justifies my disposition a little if I may take the liberty to claim such a thing. Numerous attempts were made in just the last session alone with this. 1st attempt, he wanted to treat his mind-blade as a greatsword. He's made many comments about the ability to create a bastard sword many times in previous sessions, but all of the sudden it "became" a greatsword. He literally said "greatsword", when it always used to be "bastard sword". We had to call him out on this one. Did he really think we wouldn't notice that one? In early sessions, he was using great-cleave when he only had "regular" cleave. We all assumed he had the feat, he didn't. He almost took a feat a level too early last session, but we realized that was incorrect. He has been caught before lying about dice rolls, I believe it was several sessions ago but we have seen it before. Our DM called him on it and the look on his face was a giveaway. Lately, as I mentioned above, it does seem rather suspicious whenever there is a very decisive roll that must be made. Early on, he wasn't spending the right amount of action points to manifest his mind blade. Just recently he obtained the ability to create it as a swift action. However, I believe he was creating the enhanced mind blade (bastard sword) as a swift action as well. This takes a full round, according to the class description. I'm foggy on the rules about re-manifesting this multiple times, but that's up for debate. He tried using a psionic feat that required expending psionic focus, but no psionic focus was ever gained. And these are just the things I can think of off the top of my head, that happened in the most recent sessions. Also, I'm not the only one in the group who is aware of these issues. It's happend and been brought up before, actually, MANY times now that I think of it. It's a sad thing, I know. We catch him at it--at the time, and then we move on. However, it has gotten OLD, and I'm fed up with it. We let too much slide for the sake of the game. We want to avoid killing the mood since we only get together in a rare while, and when we do we want to have fun. Sometimes I think legit mistakes are made, but too often the mistakes are made on purpose because it's impossible to catch all of them. I'm going out on a limb here to say this, but I can almost guarantee he knows what his character is "immune" to, etc. etc. without thinking twice. I bet he'd be quick to point that out when the situation favors him, but all those other details are always subject to fudging, it seems. I've been tempted to cast "hold person" on him, just to see if he would balk at the fact that it technically wouldn't work on a half-giant. If he could remember that little detail I'd be almost sure he knows more than he leads on. We don't ever cast hostile spells on each other in our games, but I am oh-so tempted to try, just to see how much he really knows about his character. So, yeah, I kind of had a "last straw" moment and vented on the boards. I feel like I ended up with the smelly end of the stick. There's no doubt we are going to have to address these issues.
kelvinaw273 04-05-08, 06:35 AM	OK, that clears up a lot. Looks like the three of you (you, binder player and DM) need to read the riot act to this guy: STOP CHEATING. That's what it is, and you all know it. I've run into many cheaters who 'make mistakes' and 'forget details' in their characters consistently and try to look innocent when they get called on it. I can almost guarantee you from past experience that this guy will start cheating again just as soon as he thinks he can get away with it, so don't stop watching him either.
CapnCJ 04-05-08, 07:42 AM	*Made a post, found the answer, hence it's useless now*
turalisj 04-05-08, 02:17 PM	Just kick the soulknife guy out of the group. And make sure that, if you know anyone that plays dnd within a several mile radius, to warn them that the guy 'forgets' the rules.
Dag 04-06-08, 03:39 AM	Kuros, I honestly didn't notice the "not really" comment at the end of your earlier post; had I noticed it I would like to think that I wouldn't have responded to you the way that I did. Your response to my somewhat rude and defensive post was pure class and I appreciate it. While I still don't agree with how lenient you are acting toward this chronic cheater, I respect what you're saying and think that your gaming group is probably rather fortunate to have a level-headed and (overly) fair fellow like you.
windscar18 04-06-08, 10:59 AM	I think that it might be a good idea to find his character and post it. That way, we can get a good idea as to what his character is and isn't capable of. I do smell a rat, but there are plenty of builds that don't seem right, but which are, in fact, legitimate. Like you've mentioned, it seems your group might need some advice concerning psionic rules.
Kuros81 04-06-08, 05:51 PM	Kuros, I honestly didn't notice the "not really" comment at the end of your earlier post; had I noticed it I would like to think that I wouldn't have responded to you the way that I did. Your response to my somewhat rude and defensive post was pure class and I appreciate it. While I still don't agree with how lenient you are acting toward this chronic cheater, I respect what you're saying and think that your gaming group is probably rather fortunate to have a level-headed and (overly) fair fellow like you. I wouldn't worry about it. Another poster had no idea what I was trying to convey, either. So apparently what I was trying to say was opaque. The problem with cheating is that it involves intent. Its not enough that he's doing something wrong. He has to be knowingly doing it wrong. Error is not malice. So whereas I think you're right, there are high odds that something is fishy here, we don't know if the player actually intends to break the rules. Early on, he wasn't spending the right amount of action points to manifest his mind blade. Just recently he obtained the ability to create it as a swift action. However, I believe he was creating the enhanced mind blade (bastard sword) as a swift action as well. This takes a full round, according to the class description. I'm foggy on the rules about re-manifesting this multiple times, but that's up for debate. He tried using a psionic feat that required expending psionic focus, but no psionic focus was ever gained. It sounds like he didn't know how to use psionics. And it can be hard when you only get together very occasionally. But I have no idea. I'm relying on your description of the situation. You should certainly trust your instincts.
kelvinaw273 04-07-08, 04:15 AM	The problem with cheating is that it involves intent. Its not enough that he's doing something wrong. He has to be knowingly doing it wrong. Error is not malice. Sadly, the way most cheaters work is they explain away their attempts to cheat as "Oh, I must have mis-read that," or "I forgot that bit". When this happens once or twice, that's acceptable. When a player tries to get away with the same cheat every single session, when he makes 'errors' a dozen times a day, often the same ones again and again and ALL are in his favor, then you don't have a poor player, you have a cheat. Don't get me wrong, I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt for a while ...