Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dougan Axehammer 11-12-07, 02:20 PM	Just this weekend, I began a campaign starting with 9th-level characters. Most of the session consisted of character creation, but we were able to get some background play done (home-brew world, very nice setup.) As part of the background, the DM decided that the party had been adventuring (practically non-stop) for the past five years. Also according to the DM, it turns out that for four of those five years I have had a serious relationship with one of the other PCs culminating in wedlock two months before the campaign begins. Adding that complexity intrigues me, so I'd like to know some ways I can enhance my roleplay of it (my first idea was a couple rings of telepathy.) However, for a couple of reasons it is an awkward situation. First, I just happen to married IRL, and not to the person I have an in game relationship with. I'm content with my real relationship and would prefer to stay married. So I've discussed this with my wife and she's okay with it... as long as it doesn't get too personal. To complicate matters, my counterpart in this relationship is a 15 year old girl. I'm hoping that she is responsible enough and mature enough to keep this strictly "professional", but I'm concerned as to the content of the roleplay. Since I've never had this kind of aspect for a character before, I have no idea how to approach it. Any advice at all?
rimble 11-12-07, 02:30 PM	Although they are rich with roleplay potential, I generally find party members that have very close bonds a little problematic: husband-wife, father-son, siblings, whatever. The problem is it's a sort of pre-defined clique that the other party members have no hope of joining and introduces character favoritism right from the get-go which some people may resent. I think making it a romantic relationship, especially in the situation you've explained, further complicates things. Why don't you ask the DM to have you be siblings? Maybe even twins? You can still have all of the close-knit, self-sacrificing, protective roleplaying you want without any of the romantic or sexual insinuations. It would help to know more about the characters to be able to make specific recommendations regarding items/spells/whatever to enhance the relationships aspects.
Dog_O_War 11-12-07, 02:50 PM	Does your wife play D&D with you? 'Cause what happens at D&D stays at D&D. Sorry; non-useful comment. Seriously though, how deep does the RPing at your sessions often go? If it's kept at the PG line, then I wouldn't worry about it at all. Also, maybe you could just set up a list of asumptions that everyone will have during "down time" like staying in the same room at taverns, in the same tent, stealing a kiss here and there, etc... If you guys get into the RPing a bit "enthusiastically" at your sessions, then I would suggest that you and the DM come up with a different background. There is nothing more akward than an elephant in the room, so I would work out these things before the game starts. Be prepared to dump it though, even if the background is way-cool.
Slapstick87 11-12-07, 02:58 PM	Well, the romance between wife and husbands mostly happens when no-one else is paying you much attention. So does taking a leak, eating a sandwitch and picking a stone out of your shoe. These things are often not mentioned in game because they are not essential. I think the "romanticizing (sp?) your wife" falls into this category. Especially since couples are (mostly) quite polite and don't shove their romantic feelings into the face of those around them. It happens at private moments, moments that are unnecesarry to bring up while adventuring. The things that would matter is always defending your spouse (whether in combat or in discussions), refusing to leave her to die and buying a small gift. These things add to the game, without becoming to invasive. So tone down the romantics, and focus on what the romantic feelings would amount to in actions. Don't say you love her, show it ;) P.S. I think it's somewhat insensitive of the DM to force this situation on you without consulting with you, and especially your wife, first. Being sibling swould be easier to handle and add the same devotion to each other.
Outsider Subtype 11-12-07, 03:00 PM	I love having family ties among PCs - it enhances loyalty to the group and provides a reason for PCs to be together that goes beyond "you meet up in a tavern". In order to help with your situation, I would advise a couple things: Figure out how the other PCs fit into this picture. Maybe they could be family friends, distant relatives, from the same town, something like that. That way everyone is a full part of the group and has similar role-playing opportunities. Address your discomfort with the marriage idea. Talking to your wife was a good move. Next, talk with your DM. Why did he or she suggest this idea? Does he or she want you to be a mentor to the younger player? It certainly shows a great deal of trust in your role-playing abilities and you should acknowledge that. The bottom line is this: if you don't think it will work or if you will have lingering discomfort you should not go along with the DM's plan. This is your PC and your part of the game, and a good DM recognizes that not everyone enjoys role-playing romantic relationships. As rimble suggested, there are other ways to have a tight-knit relationship without the romantic connotations of marriage. Maybe that would be a better fit for you. As far as role-playing ideas, I agree that we need more information. Also, remember that you would want to make sure that the other player would go along with your ideas.
DrMorganes 11-12-07, 03:16 PM	This is seriously inappropriate. Whether the DM is OK with this is not the issue. Whether you and your wife are OK with this is not the issue. The issue is not whether the MINOR FEMALE is OK with it. The issue isn't even whether the girl's parents are OK with it. (For the record, I've been gaming for 25 years, acting off and on for nearly 30, and have a teen-aged daughter. I would NOT be OK with this.) The issue is whether you're prepared to deal with the crap that will come if (dare I say when?) this goes sour. Men are falsely accused of statutory rape and other forms of sexual misconduct every day. Almost universally the girl is believed (and rightfully so). If you are accused - regardless of whether the accusation goes to trial, regardless of whether the girl is ever revealed to have lied - your reputation is GONE and your family will be irrevocably harmed. I'm NOT saying this girl will cry wolf. I'm NOT saying you will do anything inappropriate. I AM saying - as a father, husband, and parent of a newly teen-aged girl - that the potential risk is NOT worth it. I urge you to tell your DM that this aspect of the storyline needs to be changed immediately if he wants you to continue in the game.
Melayl 11-12-07, 03:26 PM	I must agree with the good doctor on this. This is a dangerous situation, even if everyone is "OK" with it and the girl acts responsibly. Talk with your DM (who, incidently is WAY out of line in springing this on your without discussing it with you first) and get it changed. Seriously, it is NOT worth the potential headache.
highbulp 11-12-07, 03:40 PM	This is seriously inappropriate. Whether the DM is OK with this is not the issue. Whether you and your wife are OK with this is not the issue. The issue is not whether the MINOR FEMALE is OK with it. The issue isn't even whether the girl's parents are OK with it. (For the record, I've been gaming for 25 years, acting off and on for nearly 30, and have a teen-aged daughter. I would NOT be OK with this.) The issue is whether you're prepared to deal with the crap that will come if (dare I say when?) this goes sour. Men are falsely accused of statutory rape and other forms of sexual misconduct every day. Almost universally the girl is believed (and rightfully so). If you are accused - regardless of whether the accusation goes to trial, regardless of whether the girl is ever revealed to have lied - your reputation is GONE and your family will be irrevocably harmed. I'm NOT saying this girl will cry wolf. I'm NOT saying you will do anything inappropriate. I AM saying - as a father, husband, and parent of a newly teen-aged girl - that the potential risk is NOT worth it. I urge you to tell your DM that this aspect of the storyline needs to be changed immediately if he wants you to continue in the game. I agree. I see giant red flags going up everywhere. It's a bad situation. Stop it now. As people have mentioned, you can get a similar benefit out of having the characters be siblings or something. Do that instead.
thaylok 11-12-07, 04:32 PM	The general consensus is this is BAD and that your DM needs to be hit upside the head with a really big cast-iron frying pan. I think, that as you have made it clear, you want to be responsible, you should lead the conversation with the DM. Whether or not to include the other party (the young lady, please don't call her a girl, she deserves more respect than that) is up to you. When my daughter plays, we don't allow this type of action, nor do we even discuss adult matters around any of our daughters (there are several in the group). However, I still think that since the young lady is involved, she should be present for the conversation. At least speak with her first, and lay the ground rules for the entire DM discussion. Don't teach her that it is okay to go behind her back (or any players) for major decisions which do involve their characters. You can do this (conversation) in a traceable, and verifiable method (e-mail). Send it to her, and copy her parents. But remember, even the hint of anything inappropriate can ruin not only your game fun, but reputations.
Prator_The_Golden 11-12-07, 04:40 PM	...Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't think you're actually going to be accused of stat-rape just for this. That said, I DO think that this setup is kinda weird, and probably should be rearranged a bit. Maybe you could be the female player's character's cousin, or uncle, or big brother, or whatever else would make for less tension and awkwardness at the gaming table OOC while still allowing for closeness IC.
thaylok 11-12-07, 05:04 PM	...Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't think you're actually going to be accused of stat-rape just for this. Correct, you probably won't see that happen. But there is no harm in taking every precaution. And the best is to NOT let this occur. In this case, the DM did not think. PERIOD! It is not his/her place to EVER force a marriage on two players. As other fathers, and myself have made clear, it is not appropriate for any adult to be in an intimate relationship (even characters only) with a minor. It would not matter if it was (older-younger) male-female, female-male, male-male or female-female. (Hey, I may not approve of it in real life, but I won't be biased in game) It is not a matter of being accused of statutory rape, it as a matter of what is appropriate and appearances. The nature of the relationship may be too much for the developing minds playing the intense and complex roles. This would not matter if it was RL or IC. This situation really needs to have two very aware, and consenting adults. Even then, things get very hazy and hard to work with. It is clear that ladies do finish their growth before guys. But the brain does not finish its physical development until the early twenties for females, and mid twenties for males. It is obvious that the original poster recognizes the responsibilities involved, and has started a very productive dialog. From the first few posts so far, it is clear that the DM did not take all factors into account. There are more than just the 2 players, and 1 DM deciding things here. The young lady needs to be clear on the ramifications of the situation before this game goes any further. She may very well be advanced for her age (she does play D&D), but I would doubt she is 7-10 years advanced mentally (possible, but I doubt it). However, even though she may act like, and be treated like an adult,she is not there yet, and typically persons of that age don't have the experience, wisdom and ability to plan far enough down the road (physically, mentally, emotionally). Involve her in the discussions, YES, but find a different way! Marriage should not be a character option for her and OP. There are too many variables to provide a stable, and thoroughly enjoyable game for ALL players.
CryoSilver 11-12-07, 05:19 PM	...Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't think you're actually going to be accused of stat-rape just for this. That's iffy. But even a sexual harassment charge (and if I learned anything from Human Resources Management 1 it's that ANYTHING can be sexual harassment) could seriously ruin the OP's life. I say discuss this with your DM and terminate the arrangement.
Etarnon 11-12-07, 05:47 PM	I agree with everything above. Worst case scenario, she "Decides" OOC that she's "In love with you" in RL. Or "Calls about the game all the time." Until it's 2 AM calls, when she's "Lonely" Big Red Stop sign, Period. It's not to me so much that it's wrong, as that it could seriously GO wrong. I'm sure it could all work out fine. With mature play etc. What if it doesn't, though? I foresee arguments with the RL wife, rivalry between 15 year old and wife, all sorts of bad news. No way would I ever get involved in or suggest anything like this, as a DM or player.
Slapstick87 11-12-07, 05:54 PM	While I do agree with everyone above, I'd also like to say I think it could play out just fine. Depends on how well you all know each other.
zelf_gale 11-12-07, 06:15 PM	While I do agree with everyone above, I'd also like to say I think it could play out just fine. Depends on how well you all know each other. It actually doesn't depend on how well you know each other, because people, relationships, and situations change (and they can change very fast and very frequently when you are 15 years old). While there is a possibility of no problems occurring due to this setup it is not worth the risk of the problems that may occur. Even if you believed the chance for such problems to occur to be extremely remote (which I don't, as a matter of fact I believe that there is a very high chance some degree of problem with the situation would occur beyond the original poster's discomfort), the magnitude of the possible consequences would make it an unwise decision overall to let this continue. In other words, Just Don't Do It. P.S. Please use the Hammergun on your DM as soon as possible.
Ace_of_time 11-12-07, 08:09 PM	You can already tell you have a problem with it. You shouldn't do anything you are uncomfortable with. There is two things you can do. 1. Be married in game and don't role play any part of it. Both of your PC go to bed together and both stay up for watches together but besides that nothing else has to be played out. It is about adven not be married. 2. Talk to the DM and tell him/her you just don't feel right doing this. Any good DM will not make you do something your not comfortable with.
Dougan Axehammer 11-12-07, 09:26 PM	Double post
Dougan Axehammer 11-12-07, 09:49 PM	<snip> I already know the risks and complications that can arise from having an in-game relationship with someone who is not your out of game significant other. The only thing I want to know is, without it getting too personal, what can I do to add to the story? Also, short of telling the DM "no", what can I do to avoid making it too personal? My character is a TN human spirit shaman who seeks to send lost souls to their final rest, and her character is a CG xeph lurk who (I think) is fashioning herself as a James Bond type. We have been travelling with the rest of the party for several years now and as a result the two of us have formed a tightly personal bond. After four years of relationship we decided to wed in the city where we are starting the campaing and have already been married for two months as of game start. As a complication, the DM has stipulated that xephs can only reproduce with other xephs, fundamentally eliminating the chance for any children. I don't know too much about xephs, lurks or spirit shamans to come up with any ideas of my own. The only ideas that I've had are rings of telepathy and generally favoring her in encounters. If anyone has any other ideas I'm more than open. P.S. Now that I'm think about it more, I wonder if this would be more appropriate for Character Development
DyloniusFunk 11-12-07, 11:00 PM	I've never trolled before, and I'm not about to start now. I am honestly and legitimately seeking advice on the subject. (Besides, I'm a dwarf; I hate trolls.) That said... I already know the risks and complications that can arise from having an in-game relationship with someone who is not your out of game significant other. The only thing I want to know is, without it getting too personal, what can I do to add to the story? Also, short of telling the DM "no", what can I do to avoid making it too personal? My character is a TN human spirit shaman who seeks to send lost souls to their final rest, and her character is a CG xeph lurk who (I think) is fashioning herself as a James Bond type. We have been travelling with the rest of the party for several years now and as a result the two of us have formed a tightly personal bond. After four years of relationship we decided to wed in the city where we are starting the campaing and have already been married for two months as of game start. As a complication, the DM has stipulated that xephs can only reproduce with other xephs, fundamentally eliminating the chance for any children. I don't know too much about xephs, lurks or spirit shamans to come up with any ideas of my own. The only ideas that I've had are rings of telepathy and generally favoring her in encounters. If anyone has any other ideas I'm more than open. P.S. Now that I'm think about it more, I wonder if this would be more appropriate for Character Development It dosen't matter what your intentions are, what your DMs intentions are or the girls. It dosen't matter if it is the most innocent thing in the world. All it matters is that you are pretending to be married to an underage girl in a fantasy role playing game. IF she decided to cause trouble for you, nobody would take your side, that's just hopw it works. Unfair, yes, but realistic. Just say no. have your characters be siblings, maybe even father-daughter. But married? Let me say it again, if she decided to cause trouble for you, you would look like the criminal. A older man playing a game that already has PR issues with middle America pretending to be married to a 15 year old girl. And again not saying anything will happen. But in this lawsuit happy age we live in and as DrMorganes said, the risk is to great.
Ace_of_time 11-12-07, 11:28 PM	I play a married person in half my games and don't see why you should be thinking of anything else but small talk. The in stuff should be about save/destorying the world not cute little nicknames. On the side of the above poster. She is going to, at some point, say something to the wrong person who is not going to think that it is a safe idea. It is one of those thing that is best if you stayed away from it. If you do decide to go along there shoud be nothing else beside going to bed and hearing the DM say it is mourning. I don't see the need to roleplay this part.
CryoSilver 11-12-07, 11:41 PM	I play a married person in half my games and don't see why you should be thinking of anything else but small talk. The in stuff should be about save/destorying the world not cute little nicknames. Roleplaying any kind of relationship that might even, in the most obscure sense, suggest sexuality in any form is enough for a sexual harassment case, which the girl's parents can bring down even if the girl doesn't want to. Even LOOKING at someone the wrong way nowadays can be considered sexual harassment. From a purely legal point of view, I'd stay far, far away from anything resembling a relationship other than "fellow adventurer." My personal experience with this crap (other than taking a course on human resources) was a girl who is younger than me by about a year and change. I told her flat out that we were NOT having any kind of romantic relationship until she turned 17, and I had a written, signed and dated letter from her mother approving the relationship. I retain several copies of that letter, in the same lockbox as my tax forms, and elsewhere. People are terribly sue-happy, and the statute of limitations being so long for this sort of thing means it could still screw you over 15 years from now, when the girl is 30 and decides she needs money, so she's gonna sue you for something that happened so long ago all the evidence is gonna boil down to "he said, she said," in which case, the male will lose every time. I'll be the first to admit I'm an idiot, but this is the kind of thing even I tread lightly around.
LittleKey 11-13-07, 12:17 AM	I don't really understand what the big deal is. I mean, asking your real wife if it's okay to be married in D&D? Isn't that taking the roleplaying just a little bit too far? Besides, if your chaotic or evil, just stab her in the face. Problem solved.
highbulp 11-13-07, 12:20 AM	P.S. Now that I'm think about it more, I wonder if this would be more appropriate for Character Development Possibly, but I want to make sure you consider this carefully. Sexual harassment threats aside, this comes off as creepy. Really creepy. Maybe you guys could be like foster siblings (since you are a different race)? Then you could make all kinds of backstory as to why one or both of you grew up in a foster home (maybe that could tie into the James Bond thing, like the ideas put forth in Casino Royal). But again, please don't do this. It's not cool.
CryoSilver 11-13-07, 12:30 AM	I don't really understand what the big deal is. I mean, asking your real wife if it's okay to be married in D&D? Isn't that taking the roleplaying just a little bit too far? Besides, if your chaotic or evil, just stab her in the face. Problem solved. The big deal is that being "married" in D&D is enough evidence to have the OP thrown in prison for sexual harassment, possibly statutory rape, and if he ever touched in her in any way (including shaking her hand, or accidentally bumping into her), sexual assault. I could personally care less about how "creepy" it is. My friends think eating sushi and rare steak is creepy/barbaric. I just can't, in good conscience (I do have one, guys), advise this guy to do anything but tell his DM that IC marriage is a no go.
1red13 11-13-07, 01:04 AM	I think the "big deal" is the appearance of impropriety. In all likelyhood nothing of significance comes of the situation. For whatever obscure reason someone has to explain to an outside person the scenario where a grown man is pretending to be married to a fifteen year old girl it will only result in someone thinking something isn't quite right, at best. That's not even considering peoples feelings getting hurt, parents having a zero tolerance for something along these lines, or even the ops wife deciding a little later that this is not ok. Once you go down this road you can't unring that bell. I sure wouldn't want to try and explain to her parents the how and why this was ok. It just seems like its territory best given a wide berth and just say no to the scenario. There is no substantial reward to do it and a whole lot of downside if it goes wrong or is misconstrued by someone outside.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 01:39 AM	Silly question here but ... how old are the rest of the players and how long has this group played together? What is the gender make-up? We know there is one guy (who is married but hasn't given an age) and a girl who is 15. Who else is in the group? Is she the only girl? If so, then I would think her parents would have talked to her about hanging out with a bunch of guys. If there are other girls, then I don't think there is a big deal here. The OP is making a deal out of it because he is uncomfortable with it. That's good. If he wasn't, most of the people on these boards would be reverse-searching his IP and getting the police involved, I bet. Being uncomfortable means that you see a problem but are not sure how to deal with it or if you should deal with it. You took one good step by talking to your wife. Not sure why it would really matter since this is a *ROLEPLAYING* group but it's good that you value her opinion. Let's face it, if you are roleplaying homocidal mass-murderers, do you go run to the police station and ask if it's ok? No, you don't. You don't give it a second thought. Why is this any different? Just don't roleplay the naughty bits and you're good to go.
Dougan Axehammer 11-13-07, 01:44 AM	For the record, I am still considering this very carefully; I already fully understand the implications of an in game relationship with a player who is under age. I will certainly discuss this with my DM before next session. However, should I decide to continue, I will not under any circumstances allow sexuality to be involved in the roleplay; she is underage, and I'm fully aware of how inappropriate such roleplaying is. In fact, I would really like to downplay the relationship as a backdrop for the ongoing campaign. I'm not looking for any approval or affirmation of any decisions I make; I came here to seek roleplaying advice for the situation. What advice/ideas can you, the roleplayer, give me for downplaying the relationship while still making it integral to the storyline (such as rings of telepathy for constant contact, or casting summon monster in a location that favors her?) P.S. I am presently weighing all the options available to me right now, and if none are favorable to good roleplaying then I'll will simply say no.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 02:11 AM	Sacred Vow: Vow of Abstinance. Not sure if that really exists in the game, but I don't see why it wouldn't. :)
Dougan Axehammer 11-13-07, 02:13 AM	Silly question here but ... how old are the rest of the players and how long has this group played together? What is the gender make-up? We know there is one guy (who is married but hasn't given an age) and a girl who is 15. Who else is in the group? Is she the only girl? If so, then I would think her parents would have talked to her about hanging out with a bunch of guys. If there are other girls, then I don't think there is a big deal here. The OP is making a deal out of it because he is uncomfortable with it. That's good. If he wasn't, most of the people on these boards would be reverse-searching his IP and getting the police involved, I bet. Being uncomfortable means that you see a problem but are not sure how to deal with it or if you should deal with it. You took one good step by talking to your wife. Not sure why it would really matter since this is a *ROLEPLAYING* group but it's good that you value her opinion. Let's face it, if you are roleplaying homocidal mass-murderers, do you go run to the police station and ask if it's ok? No, you don't. You don't give it a second thought. Why is this any different? Just don't roleplay the naughty bits and you're good to go. I play in a group that contains individuals of varying ages and genders. I've played with most of them for many years now. List as follows: -29yrs, married man, two kids; me -42?yrs, married man, three kids; current DM -50-something male, single; infrequent DM -Mid-40s divorced male; former gaming store owner -18yr old Male, still in high school, will repeat senior year; his father has even played with us for a while -18yr old Female, graduates this year -15yr old Female sophomore, friends with the 18yr olds and was introduced through them, though she's played a little already (she's the one with whom I'm having the in-game relationship) -15 yrs, male sophomore and the DM's son The DM has said that there is an in-game reason, so I don't think that there's any motivation besides playing a game.
Slapstick87 11-13-07, 02:58 AM	Besides sticking together I doubt the relationship would have an impact on the gameplay. I'd probably roleplay it mostly by buying small gifts. Heck, that's what I do it in RL :D If you decide to build a stronghold of some kind, you would naturally share it, and pool your resources to build it. Somewhere along the line you could try find a way to get permanently changed to the same race. So you could enjoy the "good things" in life. Magic items that grant Shield Other would be appropriate. You would be terrified at the thought of losing her, so pay a mage to scry her future. Ploot hook: He sees her dying, and you've got to stop it. If you encounter food you suspect being poisoned, have some before giving it to her, because you'd rather die than let her die. Frankly, there are many posibilites, but they all appear in-game. You'd just have to keep it in the back of your mind that you value her life over yours. - Slapstick
Ace_of_time 11-13-07, 10:10 AM	Roleplaying any kind of relationship that might even, in the most obscure sense, suggest sexuality in any form is enough for a sexual harassment case, which the girl's parents can bring down even if the girl doesn't want to. Even LOOKING at someone the wrong way nowadays can be considered sexual harassment. From a purely legal point of view, I'd stay far, far away from anything resembling a relationship other than "fellow adventurer." My personal experience with this crap (other than taking a course on human resources) was a girl who is younger than me by about a year and change. I told her flat out that we were NOT having any kind of romantic relationship until she turned 17, and I had a written, signed and dated letter from her mother approving the relationship. I retain several copies of that letter, in the same lockbox as my tax forms, and elsewhere. People are terribly sue-happy, and the statute of limitations being so long for this sort of thing means it could still screw you over 15 years from now, when the girl is 30 and decides she needs money, so she's gonna sue you for something that happened so long ago all the evidence is gonna boil down to "he said, she said," in which case, the male will lose every time. I'll be the first to admit I'm an idiot, but this is the kind of thing even I tread lightly around.I play with my wife and we most of the time play married PC's. Had a Elf/ kobold one time.:D
Myers 11-13-07, 10:37 AM	This has been mentioned 50 times before in this topic but I have to agree with almost everyone on the "your walking in dangerous territory". If there is one thing I know in life it is that, there is no force in this world as unpredictable and random then a teenage girl. One second she is mature, intelligent and logical, one week later, an argument with a boyfriend, or some random event with parents, or even just hormones completely change her attitude. You talked with your wife, DM and posted here because you already know your looking at dangerous territory, trust your instincts.
wrecan 11-13-07, 12:38 PM	I agree with everybody who says this is dangerous territory. Quite frankly, adolescents are in a constantly changing emotional state. Whatever you think about it now is not how it's going to be in a month. Good, bad, or indifferent, ir's just a bad idea to tie your role-playing experience so tightly to an adolescent. I've DMed for more than a quarter-century with and I've had mixed age groups playing together. Adolescents -- even those you would call remarkably mature -- take things more personally than adults. That's part of what makes them adolescents. It's good for their ultimate maturity, but it can be difficult for the adults in their lives. It's not good to be the monkey wrench in that development. Do yourself a favor and talk to the DM OOG. There are tons of ways to engage in meaningful role-lay that don't involve pretending to be in a committed relationship with an adolescent pretending to be an adult.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 01:16 PM	Do yourself a favor and talk to the DM OOG. There are tons of ways to engage in meaningful role-lay that don't involve pretending to be in a committed relationship with an adolescent pretending to be an adult. Wow. Talk about your Freudian slips... :)
wrecan 11-13-07, 01:52 PM	:embarrass
Max Octavious Xavier 11-13-07, 01:53 PM	1 more vote for "Danger Will Robinson, Danger", for all the reasons many people have already posted. The foster sibling idea was good. I also have problems with your DM (apparently) forcing this on you, even for "IN-game" reasons. Him saying "The group has been adventuring together for 5 years..." is ok. But "...and you 2 just got married a few months ago." is not. The players should provide the details. Just tell the DM "Not happening." For gaming advise, (if you go ahead). I would suggest subtly "suiciding" your character. I'm serious. This will give the girl a chance to be the grieving widow. Otherwise, Rings of Friend Shield would be my 1st thought and someway to keep track/find each other would be my 2nd. You've mentioned rings of telepathy. While this would allow you to keep track of each other, would you really want your wife to be able to read your mind? Perhaps a keyed "Locate Creature" type of effect would be better. If you're (or when you get) high enough level. Hiring/binding a good celestial to "bodyguard"(or even just watch over) your "wife" would be a good idea. Lets not overlook Protecton fom Evil/etc... to prevent possesion. Basically, any reasonable protection you would do for your character should 1st be applied to your "wife" 1st.
VulcanStormwrath 11-13-07, 02:21 PM	You do realize that if things were to go wrong, this entire thread is evidence against you that you knew it was a bad idea from the start and went through with it anyway. Besides which the male -female ratio and the ages of your group would look really bad in a court room.
Ace_of_time 11-13-07, 03:32 PM	I would like to point out something else here. Do her parents know she plays D&D? I know some kids that don't tell their moms and dads because they think that the game of D&D is evil. (I know that is silly but that is the way some people are) I just thought that if they were those types and then found out that not only was their little girl playing D&D but was married in game(they would understand something like that) to a very older man. It might get ugly fast. I don't play with people under 18 unless their parents know they are playing and are ok with it. I even tell the person if they want I, as DM, would go with them to talk to the parents and answer any questions they might have but in the end if they say no then they can't play. Just a thought.
Dougan Axehammer 11-13-07, 04:53 PM	1 more vote for "Danger Will Robinson, Danger", for all the reasons many people have already posted. The foster sibling idea was good. I also have problems with your DM (apparently) forcing this on you, even for "IN-game" reasons. Him saying "The group has been adventuring together for 5 years..." is ok. But "...and you 2 just got married a few months ago." is not. The players should provide the details. Just tell the DM "Not happening." Yeah... I pretty much have an issue with this as well; he actually does this type of railroading often. (We call it the "DM f***", and it heralds back to the days when it was expected.) To top it off he doesn't really give us any background until the campaign begins, so it can get pretty frustrating when you make a PC that doesn't work. But, it is usually a well intentioned story element, so I generally just pass it off. For gaming advise, (if you go ahead). I would suggest subtly "suiciding" your character. I'm serious. This will give the girl a chance to be the grieving widow. Otherwise, Rings of Friend Shield would be my 1st thought and someway to keep track/find each other would be my 2nd. You've mentioned rings of telepathy. While this would allow you to keep track of each other, would you really want your wife to be able to read your mind? Perhaps a keyed "Locate Creature" type of effect would be better. If you're (or when you get) high enough level. Hiring/binding a good celestial to "bodyguard"(or even just watch over) your "wife" would be a good idea. Lets not overlook Protecton fom Evil/etc... to prevent possesion. Basically, any reasonable protection you would do for your character should 1st be applied to your "wife" 1st. Besides sticking together I doubt the relationship would have an impact on the gameplay. I'd probably roleplay it mostly by buying small gifts. Heck, that's what I do it in RL :D If you decide to build a stronghold of some kind, you would naturally share it, and pool your resources to build it. Somewhere along the line you could try find a way to get permanently changed to the same race. So you could enjoy the "good things" in life. Magic items that grant Shield Other would be appropriate. You would be terrified at the thought of losing her, so pay a mage to scry her future. Ploot hook: He sees her dying, and you've got to stop it. If you encounter food you suspect being poisoned, have some before giving it to her, because you'd rather die than let her die. Frankly, there are many posibilites, but they all appear in-game. You'd just have to keep it in the back of your mind that you value her life over yours. - Slapstick Thank you very much, I shall take these ideas under consideration.
Varia 11-14-07, 03:38 AM	You do realize that if things were to go wrong, this entire thread is evidence against you that you knew it was a bad idea from the start and went through with it anyway. Besides which the male -female ratio and the ages of your group would look really bad in a court room. Do YOU realise that contrary to the "OMG, wont anyone think of teh childrenz" brigade that seem to be overrunning this thread in a hysteria that would do Fox News proud, this thread is actually evidence of (lack of) intent, and NOT predatory interest? And, presumably, the entire rest of the group would be witness to anything too? Doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind. And why the @*@^&#%@^$ not?? Buncha Stanleys...
Etarnon 11-14-07, 03:42 AM	The group might witness in game at the table, sure. What about out of game? The game doesn't exist in a vacuum, where nothing but table and dice are there. There is a solid likelihood that the 15 year old will try to get romantically attached to her "husband / father figure", sufficient that a dozen other people here see it.
The_Shaman 11-14-07, 08:47 AM	I don't see how this is so different from having an in-party romance... Which I think is okay as long as the participants are okay with it and feel at ease. If you don't, tell the DM. . I realize it can cause some friction, especially if the girl starts getting some OOC feelings, or the OPs wife starts to think she does. This is why I agree that the Dougan should have consulted his wife, other players, the DM etc. But statutory rape... man, that's just weird, big-time, WTH weird. Are there any lawyers here that can tell us how else we break the law and public decency in the course of a gaming session? If you take things so far as to imprison a man for taking part of a roleplay romance, then most actors, amateur or no, would also face jail - not to mention that many other staple D&D activities can probably be presented in a similar line in court. Should I refrain from saying that my character wants to kill another PC or NPC? Give up on tomb looting? Do not accept any non-Christian deity for my characters? I apologize if some of this sounds absurd, but to me these are just as absurd as being put through hell for having your character in a romantic interaction with another character when none of the players object.
DyloniusFunk 11-14-07, 08:50 AM	Do YOU realise that contrary to the "OMG, wont anyone think of teh childrenz" brigade that seem to be overrunning this thread in a hysteria that would do Fox News proud, this thread is actually evidence of (lack of) intent, and NOT predatory interest? And, presumably, the entire rest of the group would be witness to anything too? Doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind. And why the @*@^&#%@^$ not?? Buncha Stanleys... Nobdy is saying anything about intent. What we are saying is that all it takes is for something to happen, and the girl to go to the right people and even if it never reaches court there is a good chance that the OP reputation could be ruined for life. Even an accusations that somehow ends up on the local news could do damage, and if D&D is involved that's even worse for the OP. Let's face facts folks, this game is not accepted in the mainstream. And if somethis did happen, and it got on the news, what would the guys defense be? We were just pretending to be married in a role playing game? Makes sense to us, but to joe six pack out there who dosen't get d&d it soudns trange and the OP would sound like a guy who needs to be locked up. What's evne worse is that for msot people when you say role palying, something else usually comes to mind. Personally i'm in the dcamp that blames the DM for making such an arbitrary decision on character interaction. You want party cohesion fine, make the characters from the same family, or say they all work for the same patron. Maybe they each have a secrete on the other so they keep each otehr nearby, mutually self assured destruction. But saying your 15 year old player and your adult player have marreid characters and will be expected to role paly that? That's out of line and just a bad can of worms to be opening.
thaylok 11-14-07, 08:56 AM	It would have been more appropriate if it were the 18 year old male and the 18 year old female... or even the 18 year old male and the 15 year old female. The DM is old enough to know better!!!! True, the younger folks wouldn't fully understand some of the responsibilities, the lady would be thinking of what she was raised to think the ideal marriage is. The male would be thinking of his ideal marriage (nookie, someone to fix the meals, easy money, nookie, trophy wife, nookie, prestige of being a hero, nookie). So, I can see why there would be the temptation to use a responsible adult in one of the two roles. However, the appropriate thing is not to use someone so advanced in age with someone so young. Again, use two of the younger players for that role.
rimble 11-14-07, 10:21 AM	Do YOU realise that contrary to the "OMG, wont anyone think of teh childrenz" brigade that seem to be overrunning this thread in a hysteria that would do Fox News proud, this thread is actually evidence of (lack of) intent, and NOT predatory interest? And, presumably, the entire rest of the group would be witness to anything too? Doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind. And why the @*@^&#%@^$ not?? Buncha Stanleys... I know one guy (not well because he can't really go anywhere) who didn't do anything but now can't go near children, anywhere, supervised or otherwise. He'll come by for a birthday party or other event and wave from the street, the adults will go out to say hi, but he can't go in the house where the kids are. Sadly enough there's still gross misunderstanding about D&D too. Dad: That 28 year old (EVIL) man (EVIL) was playing D&D (EVIL) with my 15 year old (EASILY VICTIMIZED) girl (INNOCENT)?! There's a certain hysteria out there right now, why tempt it over something stupid like D&D?
Myers 11-14-07, 01:40 PM	Do YOU realise that contrary to the "OMG, wont anyone think of teh childrenz" brigade that seem to be overrunning this thread in a hysteria that would do Fox News proud, this thread is actually evidence of (lack of) intent, and NOT predatory interest? And, presumably, the entire rest of the group would be witness to anything too? Doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind. And why the @*@^&#%@^$ not?? Buncha Stanleys... I don't recall a single post where anyone has expressed any concerns implying the OP might chase after the 15 year old. The concern is the 15 year old might chase after the OP, she may get the wrong idea, or even if everyone in the D&D group is mature enough to handle it. Say she's in school, talking to a friend of hers about the game, some other girl hears the conversation, takes a 3rd person barely understood version of the story, winds up telling her parents what she heard of it. The story spreads in typical gossip fashion, fueled even farther with the "D&D is the gateway to satanism" beleif in the mainstream world, things get ugly. Never underestimate how fast a total misconception can spread, or what can be destroyed in the path.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 11-14-07, 02:19 PM	First, I just happen to married IRL, and not to the person I have an in game relationship with. I'm content with my real relationship and would prefer to stay married. So I've discussed this with my wife and she's okay with it... as long as it doesn't get too personal. To complicate matters, my counterpart in this relationship is a 15 year old girl… >TWEET!!!< Okay, everybody out of the pool! Even if every person involved is mature enough to handle this there is far too much potential - real or perceived - for things to go horribly wrong RPing an intimate relationship - particularly one with a physical overtone, even if imagined - with a 15 year old girl. Note: I am going to play along and respond as if this is a legitimate post.
Ace_of_time 11-14-07, 03:20 PM	Ether way it goes I don't see this end good if he goes along with it. I think there is a More important problem with the DM. He said this wasn't the first railroading type thing the DM has done. If the OP doesn't feel right about doing it and the DM say he has to any way. I say find another DM that is better. No good DM would let this happen any way let alone force his/her players to do it. There was allready two 15 years one male and one female in the group that would have been a safer pick for this type of story line. Talk to the DM andf if he says you have to, leave. There are better people to play with. It is only a game after all.
CryoSilver 11-14-07, 09:18 PM	Do YOU realise that contrary to the "OMG, wont anyone think of teh childrenz" brigade that seem to be overrunning this thread in a hysteria that would do Fox News proud, this thread is actually evidence of (lack of) intent, and NOT predatory interest? And, presumably, the entire rest of the group would be witness to anything too? Doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind. And why the @*@^&#%@^$ not?? Buncha Stanleys... That is not important at all. Do you know how the sexual harassment laws work? If someone feels that another person is creating a "hostile environment" by what they say or do, which does in fact, include the way the accused is LOOKING at the accuser, it constitutes sexual harassment. Eg: Jane is working at Acme, in the Dangerous Gadgets department, designing next-gen rocket skates. She is wearing a low-cut blouse. Bob takes a quick glance at her cleavage. Sexual harassment. Bob has created a hostile work environment. Bob's employment is terminated (zero tolerance!), and Jane has the right to press charges. If she wins (in criminal court, though she can also sue in civil court), Bob is forevermore a sexual offender and must register as such. He is now barred from any job involving children, cannot associate with children, may have his own children taken into custody, and may go to prison. For looking at a woman wearing clothing designed to show off what he looked at. The exact same thing applies to the OP here. By having an in-game marriage, he (and possibly the DM) can be considered to have created a hostile gaming environment, where sexuality has become an intrinsic part of the gaming experience. Also, if anyone in the group has ever touched her in any way (as I mentioned above, this could mean shaking her hand when she shows up, or accidentally bumping her on the way to the kitchen) it may be considered sexual assault.
Legdiwena 11-14-07, 09:25 PM	Except, I would assume they haven't signed any sort of agreement such as you would have in any corporation nowadays.
CryoSilver 11-14-07, 09:29 PM	That doesn't mean the laws don't apply. Those agreements generally lay out the COMPANY policy, which is more or less "we're following the government's rules, and in addition, you will be terminated if you are found guilty." The laws about a hostile environment are state and federal level and always apply. If the DM doesn't want to boot the player after he has been convicted, he doesn't have to, but he will be playing with a registered sex offender, and will therefore not be allowed to have anyone under 18 in the group.
wrecan 11-14-07, 09:43 PM	t is usually a well intentioned story element, so I generally just pass it off. I am advising you not to pass it off this time. It is almost incomprehensible to me that despite the vast majority of advice being "Don't do this!" you're still only complimenting the few suggestions you get that involve you going through with this il-advised plan. It's time to stand up to your DM. If you need to, ask him to look at this thread, even post to it. You came for advice, and the consensus is, this is a horrible idea. I would even say it has the potential to be catastrophic for you, for her. That's not the advice you wanted, but that's how advice works. Please reconsider any thoughts of roleplaying the wife of a 15 year old's PC.
thaylok 11-14-07, 09:46 PM	The hostile environment does not need to be felt by the lady here. One of the other guys, or even the other gals can initiate the problems. He can be the one to initiate the problem, but... and this is a BIG BUT, the courts will turn it around against him. Men are predators, women are victims in the laws eyes. That is changing, but that has historically been the case. Again, Even if He and She are fine with it, if anyone else isn't... the problems begin.
CryoSilver 11-14-07, 10:06 PM	The reporting ratio is 85/15 as of 2006, according to my Managing Human Resources textbook.
1red13 11-14-07, 10:23 PM	I think there is another side of this that bears thinking about. What if the fifteen year old girl isn't keen on this and is reluctant to voice her thoughts. Being the youngest in the group that ranges from 15-42 she may be a little intimidated to voice her objections. Some objections she may have 1 He's just about as old as my dad 2 Doesn't want to be deemed too young 3 Isn't any more interested into a forced pc marriage than the op 4 Its creepy If you think of it from her possible perspective the op may be doing her a favour by nixing the idea with the dm Maybe its just me but it make me wonder if the dm was getting some vicarious enjoyment by orhcestrated the scneario.
Etarnon 11-14-07, 10:52 PM	Pardon my prognostication. "Middle Aged Male, Dungeons & Dragons Player, Sleeps with and 'Married' to 15 year old teen in his imagination...'It's only a game, no harm in it'...Approved by Svengali-like DungeonMaster as long term plan to recruit Teenage girls for In-Game Romances." Something like that. We'll see. As it goes on, the more this seems like it's not for real, because a word to the wise is sufficient.,
KillerVole 11-14-07, 11:43 PM	A few things. First, like most of the other posters on this thread, I wouldn't touch this with the proverbial ten-foot pole if I were you. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. However, one thing people are warning you about, sexual harassment charges, may not apply in this situation. Unless something has recently changed, one can only be charged for sexual harassment in one's place of employment or at school. The reason for this is that a person has no choice about going to those places, unlike, say, a public park. For example, if a man whistles lewdly at a woman at his office, he can be slapped with sexual harassment charges. If he does the same thing on the street, he cannot be charged. Sexual harassment is defined by the victim, but it will not apply at your friendly neighborhood gaming group. Of course, this means nothing against the concerns of far more serious charges, like sexual assault on a minor or statutory rape. If, for whatever reason, an investigation is opened, you will be in serious trouble. "Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", while technically applicable, will do nothing to save your reputation during the investigation. Similarly, people's doubts tend to go away surprisingly easily in these sorts of situations. While the individual involved would likely never do something like this, it is not worth risking the hassle and life destroying potential of a massive legal battle for a few months of in-game amusement. I would recommend that you ask your DM politely if you can drop the marriage plot. If it is necessary to his campaign, the either you or the fifteen year old should take leadership, and make your cohort your spouse. Then, you can play them yourselves. No one presses charges against a man for pretending to be his own wife, though they may think it a bit odd. Again, the people here are on the right track. However innocuous this appears to you, and all the players in the group, it is in no way worth the risk.
Ace_of_time 11-15-07, 12:41 AM	I going with the ones that say this isn't real. I'm sorry but I don't see any wife letting their husbands play this let alone asking their wife for promission to date a 15 year old girl in game or otherwise. My wife would beat the heck out of me and she plays in my games where I have to play boyfriend and husbands/ wifes to other players all the time. Some one would have been on the floor.
Dougan Axehammer 11-15-07, 01:26 AM	Alright, alright, alright. I'll talk to my DM and tell him that I'm not going to go through with the "marriage". If he still wants to have one, that's fine, but he can use his own son for that. Next session's this Saturday, and I'll give an update after that. (I don't really see my character being married anyway.) I did have one idea for an alternative: What if she was married in the past, but now she is a widow and for some reason hates me for it. Does that sound workable?
wrecan 11-15-07, 06:14 AM	That sounds fine to me, though it doesn't seem to comport with your DM's "master plan". And thanks for considering our words. Let us know what happens.
steenan 11-15-07, 09:55 AM	I really don't understand why most of the posters here freak out at the idea of in-game marriage. Maybe that's because I'm Polish and we have a little healthier approach to sexual matters here, or something... Anyway, I have roleplayed romances (and sometimes marriages) many times, with different female players, including, but not limited to, my wife. One of these girls was 16 at that time. It caused no problems, neither with my wife nor with the players of my in-game lovers. If only the people involved are mature enough to separate what happens IG from what happens IRL, everything is fine. And it's worth it to include love in game - it's a very strong motivation and a source of powerful emotions, thus helping much in creating character's depth and good roleplaying.
Another_Poet 11-15-07, 09:58 AM	I already know the risks and complications that can arise from having an in-game relationship with someone who is not your out of game significant other. The only thing I want to know is, without it getting too personal, what can I do to add to the story? Also, short of telling the DM "no", what can I do to avoid making it too personal? 1. Talk to the girl at your next session and see how she wants to play it. 2. Never roleplay smooching or romance. 3. Always roleplay protectiveness and loyalty. 4. If your character is the jealous sort, don't go overboard. 5. Remember not every marriage is a happy marriage. As long as it doesn't detract from the storyline and other characters, you two could have frequent IC tiffs. "Why would you give that ring of jump to the rogue? I've been looking for a ring of jump for three months! Don't you ever listen?" Edited to add: Sorry, didn't see that you are no longer planning on doing the marriage thing. Too bad really, could've been fun. ap
highbulp 11-15-07, 10:22 AM	I did have one idea for an alternative: What if she was married in the past, but now she is a widow and for some reason hates me for it. Does that sound workable? That could probably work (assuming that the other player is interested--remember it is her character, not yours or the DM's). Though I'm not sure why she would hate you because she was a widow (unless you killed her husband or something). That could be interesting, though make sure it doesn't break up the party cohesion or anything. Let us know how it goes :) I really don't understand why most of the posters here freak out at the idea of in-game marriage. Maybe that's because I'm Polish and we have a little healthier approach to sexual matters here, or something... I'd bet that's it. It's what we get for living in a country founded by Puritans ;p
Dougan Axehammer 11-15-07, 11:46 AM	That could probably work (assuming that the other player is interested--remember it is her character, not yours or the DM's). Though I'm not sure why she would hate you because she was a widow (unless you killed her husband or something). That could be interesting, though make sure it doesn't break up the party cohesion or anything. I'm playing a TN spirit shaman, a druid/cleric-like class (from Complete Divine) devoted to defending lost souls and warding off malicious spirits (or at least that's how I interpreted it.) With that in mind, I was thinking that her previous "husband" died for some reason and my character decided to aid in his passing into the afterlife instead of rezzing him (or something to that effect) like she wished. (And though she doesn't hate me, she now holds that against me.) I was also thinking that a crime syndicate could be responsible giving her an enemy (a Specter to her James Bond) and that would fit in with her CG lurk.
rimble 11-15-07, 12:11 PM	I'm playing a TN spirit shaman, a druid/cleric-like class (from Complete Divine) devoted to defending lost souls and warding off malicious spirits (or at least that's how I interpreted it.) With that in mind, I was thinking that her previous "husband" died for some reason and my character decided to aid in his passing into the afterlife instead of rezzing him (or something to that effect) like she wished. (And though she doesn't hate me, she now holds that against me.) I was also thinking that a crime syndicate could be responsible giving her an enemy (a Specter to her James Bond) and that would fit in with her CG lurk. Dr. Kevorkian for the soul...
thaylok 11-15-07, 01:18 PM	I going with the ones that say this isn't real. I'm sorry but I don't see any wife letting their husbands play this let alone asking their wife for permission to date a 15 year old girl in game or otherwise. My wife would have no problems with it, PROVIDED, it was another fully consenting adult. If the DM assigns that, then she would have a problem. Yes my wife plays, not often, but she also knows everyone we play with very well. And we are very conservative folks. I have several "Wives" on different games, and My wife knows these folks personally, and approved it. There is no virtual hanky-panky going on. And, my wife monitors the situation very closely. But should my DM arrange an in-game marriage with a RL 15 year old, my wife, and I would both be looking for different friends.
Undrhil 11-15-07, 03:56 PM	Here's an interesting question which I can't help but think will alter everyone's perceptions of this problem: What would everyone be saying right now if the OP had posted that the RL player for his in-game wife was the 15-year-old *boy* in the group? Or that his character was the wife to the 15-year-old boy's character?
Legdiwena 11-15-07, 04:10 PM	I would say it's still improper, and would perhaps be perceived as worse by public opinion.
highbulp 11-15-07, 04:12 PM	Here's an interesting question which I can't help but think will alter everyone's perceptions of this problem: What would everyone be saying right now if the OP had posted that the RL player for his in-game wife was the 15-year-old *boy* in the group? Probably something along the lines that the DM should be careful about railroading (which has already been said)? Maybe some astute soul (not myself) would point out that this might be a bit sketchy. Or that his character was the wife to the 15-year-old boy's character? That is a slightly different issue. A potential power differential between the sexes is somewhat offset by a potential power differential between the ages. Pointing out a double standard (which is what you're getting at) doesn't make it go away. Sure it might be unfair, but it still exists.
rimble 11-15-07, 05:06 PM	Here's an interesting question which I can't help but think will alter everyone's perceptions of this problem: What would everyone be saying right now if the OP had posted that the RL player for his in-game wife was the 15-year-old *boy* in the group? Or that his character was the wife to the 15-year-old boy's character? I don't understand how that matters. Men don't molest boys? Or haven't been wrongfully accused of molesting boys? Gender is irrelevant. This is an age issue, enforced very strictly by (US) law, which has shown a strong precedence for claiming people are guilty until proven innocent. Really, this thread is just full of legal advice. My legal advice: Don't have romantic relationships, fantasy or otherwise, with minors. Don't do it in chat rooms. Don't do it in World of Warcraft. Don't do it in D&D. Don't do it on MySpace. Just don't do it.
TarlSS 11-15-07, 05:58 PM	Sorry dude, if word gets out, if you have a career outside of geekdom (CS, IT, etc), then you're finished. Just imagine this, a competitor finds out you're married in D&D to 15 year old girl. If you worked for any even mildly conservative organization, such as a bank or a law firm, I would fully expect you to be fired, or at least in serious trouble. If you're in to politics, which I suspect you aren't because you -are- in a thing like this, then your career would be ruined. It's not worth it. IF the circumstances of this got into your workplace, there could be serious consequences. If the parents or whatever got wind of it, you could seriously be sued or even thrown in jail for a short period of time. You don't want to be a victim of Miranda's law. Ask any judge or any lawyer, what you are doing is thin ice and could be considered a crime.
wrecan 11-15-07, 06:17 PM	Here's an interesting question which I can't help but think will alter everyone's perceptions of this problem: What would everyone be saying right now if the OP had posted that the RL player for his in-game wife was the 15-year-old *boy* in the group? Or that his character was the wife to the 15-year-old boy's character? It would make no difference to my suggestion that he not do it.
KillerVole 11-15-07, 10:39 PM	I would suggest against "marrying" anyone who is not of the legal age of consent. This is especially the case as the idea did not originate with the girl. It sounds far too much like a forced marriage. If a thirty some man assigns a fifteen year old boy or girl to play spouse to the man's twenty something buddy, people will get suspicious. As to her having a grudge against you, that's fine, under one condition: that she wants that. Has anyone, during this entire little drama, asked the girl what she wants to do? Maybe she wants to play Sue, a fifteen year old princess with a happy past. If so, she should be allowed to have a romance and angst free past. I would recommend asking her, without giving any suggestions, what she wants her background to be. If she must have ties to another party member, let her create them on her own. You'll probably be surprised at the quality of what she comes up with. As an aside to the person who asked if the freakout was cultural:it is, but not (in my opinion) due to sexual mores. The problem is America's tendency to sue over the smallest things, and turn everything, no matter the lack of evidence, into a legal battle. Leaving this sort of opening for a lawsuit is like playing Russian Roulette with the legal system.
Ace_of_time 11-16-07, 02:03 AM	I think the only way the post would be different is if the 15 year old girl was the one posting asking for role playing ideas for the game.
Etarnon 11-16-07, 01:07 PM	Agreed, and I'd still warn her off.
ogg205 11-16-07, 02:22 PM	Just this weekend, I began a campaign starting with 9th-level characters. Most of the session consisted of character creation, but we were able to get some background play done (home-brew world, very nice setup.) As part of the background, the DM decided that the party had been adventuring (practically non-stop) for the past five years. Also according to the DM, it turns out that for four of those five years I have had a serious relationship with one of the other PCs culminating in wedlock two months before the campaign begins. Adding that complexity intrigues me, so I'd like to know some ways I can enhance my roleplay of it (my first idea was a couple rings of telepathy.) However, for a couple of reasons it is an awkward situation. First, I just happen to married IRL, and not to the person I have an in game relationship with. I'm content with my real relationship and would prefer to stay married. So I've discussed this with my wife and she's okay with it... as long as it doesn't get too personal. To complicate matters, my counterpart in this relationship is a 15 year old girl. I'm hoping that she is responsible enough and mature enough to keep this strictly "professional", but I'm concerned as to the content of the roleplay. Since I've never had this kind of aspect for a character before, I have no idea how to approach it. Any advice at all? OMG!!!! If I were in that situation, I'd be out and into my car before they heard the screen door slam. I agree with previous statements listed before- the DM needs to be hit upside the head with a frying pan or something worse (maybe a forge). GET OUT OF THE GROUP! Leave, scram, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Nothing good can come from this. Children are a hassel and a half especially at the age that this one is at. I would expect no good rping out of her that is not childish.
thaylok 11-16-07, 05:22 PM	Here's an interesting question which I can't help but think will alter everyone's perceptions of this problem: What would everyone be saying right now if the OP had posted that the RL player for his in-game wife was the 15-year-old *boy* in the group? Or that his character was the wife to the 15-year-old boy's character? The exact same. Haven't you been watching all the Teachers who've been sleeping with the middle and high school boys they teach? Some have even born their children. http://kstp.com/article/stories/S258238.shtml?cat=206 http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/10157 http://kstp.com/article/stories/S258238.shtml?cat=206 http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=80845 And that's only in the last 7 days There are more, You need to look http://familywatchdog.us Enter your zipcode, and see how many registered sex offenders live within 5 miles of you. True, some were added when they were 17, 18, for spending intimate time with their significant other. Stupid mistakes land you in lifelong hot water. Again, it's an age thing, It's a responsibility thing, It's a perception thing, It's a thinking thing. It is NOT a gender thing.
Voran 11-16-07, 09:10 PM	I've always held, "If it feels a bit off, feel free to decline." Its entirely within your rights to go "Yknow what? I'm not so comfortable with this setup, can we do something else? Like maybe she's my kid-sister or something?"
danielinthewolvesden 11-17-07, 03:51 PM	J Also according to the DM, it turns out that for four of those five years I have had a serious relationship with one of the other PCs culminating in wedlock two months before the campaign begins. Adding that complexity intrigues me, so I'd like to know some ways I can enhance my roleplay of it (my first idea was a couple rings of telepathy.) However, for a couple of reasons it is an awkward situation. You can simply say "I prefer not, thank you.It's my character". fyi: (Dougan Axehammer has been posting here since 2001, and has IMHO a decent rep. )
Ace_of_time 11-17-07, 07:11 PM	IMHO???
r3gulark 11-17-07, 10:30 PM	Have your characters find out that married life isn't all that it seems. Be a ***** to each other.
danielinthewolvesden 11-18-07, 02:03 AM	IMHO??? "In My Humble Opinion". I thought "IMHO" was pretty darn common?:confused:
Ace_of_time 11-18-07, 03:01 AM	I'm just stupid.:D No if I see something I don't know what it is I just ask doesn't mean it isn't common. I just didn't know what it is was sorry.
Dougan Axehammer 11-18-07, 10:53 PM	Update: I spoke to my DM about the situation and explaining my case. I was a little nervous, but it went really well. He understood my feelings on the matter and has changed the party dynamic: his son's character is now the husband, and is, I think, a better match for her's. In the last session they seemed to work well together, so I would like to garner some ideas for them on roleplaying the part (nothing sexual, just the little things.) The girl does happen to be fairly new, and I think it would be encouraging to help her with her roleplaying. (Dougan Axehammer has been posting here since 2001, and has IMHO a decent rep. ) Thank you, Daniel, I appreciate that.:)
highbulp 11-18-07, 11:40 PM	Update: I spoke to my DM about the situation and explaining my case. I was a little nervous, but it went really well. He understood my feelings on the matter and has changed the party dynamic: his son's character is now the husband, and is, I think, a better match for her's. In the last session they seemed to work well together, so I would like to garner some ideas for them on roleplaying the part (nothing sexual, just the little things.) The girl does happen to be fairly new, and I think it would be encouraging to help her with her roleplaying. Glad to hear it worked out Dougan :)
wrecan 11-19-07, 08:46 AM	Thanks for the update. Sounds like a decent resolution.
FrostWolf 11-19-07, 10:16 AM	Glad to here things went well.
thaylok 11-19-07, 01:32 PM	I think most of the rp suggestions given to now would suffice. Even use your experiences from back when you were dating. now, fully expect the guy to mess up every once in a while... Let them fight over some money, and if it's sub-group (family) or his/hers. But once they get that straight, let them have fun! isn't that the point? Glad the situation is working out.
Jamaraq 11-19-07, 03:24 PM	I'd like to offer my condolences for the fact that you live in a country in which you are not free to role-play (as opposed to doing something out of game) any fictional (as opposed to real) situation you want. The great majority of the replies seem to be motivated by an (in my opinion) unfounded fear that this girl (or her family) is only doing this, so she can later sue you for money if she needs it. Personally, I don't know any 15 year old American girls, but where I come from, 15 year old girls are more than capable of distinguishing "fantasy" from "reality". If you have any doubts that this particular girl (and, judging from the hysterical reactions in this thread: all 15 year old American girls) cannot make this (fairly simple) distinction, why allow her to play at all? Will she report you to the police if your character steals money from her character? Will you be sued for murder if your character kills her character? Aren't these situations completely preposterous unless you would commit the crime against the real person, and not the character? Why is this suddenly different for something 'harmless' like marriage? Is having a clearly fictional relationship (which isn't even acted out beyond: "Our characters are married, and are assumed to do married couple stuff, but we won't specifically role-play the intimate stuff) with a minor that much worse than clearly fictionally killing someone? According to the great majority of the thread posts, it clearly is. Quite frankly, I find THAT mind-boggling.
Prince_of_Parkness 11-19-07, 03:31 PM	I'd like to offer my condolences for the fact that you live in a country in which you are not free to role-play (as opposed to doing something out of game) any fictional (as opposed to real) situation you want. The great majority of the replies seem to be motivated by an (in my opinion) unfounded fear that this girl (or her family) is only doing this, so she can later sue you for money if she needs it. Personally, I don't know any 15 year old American girls, but where I come from, 15 year old girls are more than capable of distinguishing "fantasy" from "reality". If you have any doubts that this particular girl (and, judging from the hysterical reactions in this thread: all 15 year old American girls) cannot make this (fairly simple) distinction, why allow her to play at all? Will she report you to the police if your character steals money from her character? Will you be sued for murder if your character kills her character? Aren't these situations completely preposterous unless you would commit the crime against the real person, and not the character? Why is this suddenly different for something 'harmless' like marriage? Is having a clearly fictional relationship (which isn't even acted out beyond: "Our characters are married, and are assumed to do married couple stuff, but we won't specifically role-play the intimate stuff) with a minor that much worse than clearly fictionally killing someone? According to the great majority of the thread posts, it clearly is. Quite frankly, I find THAT mind-boggling. Welcome to anglo-saxon suing culture. I love the my birth country... On a more serios note, people here werent saying that the girl or her family will sue the OP, merely that there was a distinct possibility that it could happen, and hed be powerless to the law if it came to that. It a pretty uneccissary risk considering all the other ways you can add depth to your PCs
Prator_The_Golden 11-19-07, 03:35 PM	Personally, I don't know any 15 year old American girls, but where I come from, 15 year old girls are more than capable of distinguishing "fantasy" from "reality". If you have any doubts that this particular girl (and, judging from the hysterical reactions in this thread: all 15 year old American girls) cannot make this (fairly simple) distinction, why allow her to play at all? Take it from a guy who used to be a 15-year old boy, who used to dream about dating the girls he was "married" to in the various musicals and stage dramas he performed in: Love and Realism do not work together all that well, especially when you're a teenager and too damn lusty for your own good. Not that EVERYONE is like that, or that a 15-year old girl will necessarily give a damn about someone twice her age, but hey, a little paranoia never hurt anynone, right?
Jamaraq 11-19-07, 04:02 PM	a distinct possibility that it could happen, and hed be powerless to the law Really? In this situation? He would be powerless to the law? Powerless? I hate to say it, but then something is seriously and fundamentally wrong with your justice system. If your judges can't see the difference between "fantasy" and "reality" you might as well replace them with 15 year old girls (or so I have been told).
GnomeBoy 11-19-07, 04:06 PM	I'd like to offer my condolences for the fact that you live in a country in which you are not free to role-play ... I find THAT mind-boggling. I totally understand your post. I started reading this thread some time ago, thinking of throwing out the suggestion that if it was kept to the equivalent of what you'd see of marriage in a General Audience (or even PG) movie, you'd be fine. And in 99.9% of cases similar to this situation, it would be. Most folks can distinguish reality from fiction. The problem is that there are those folks out there who are in the 0.01%. They would either misunderstand the situation or seek to take advantage of it. The US legal system is off-track, and were you to come up against that 0.01% of people, well, your life could be ruined, or at the least, needlessly complicated. Sad, but true. For more mind-bogglingness, check this thread: Weirdest response you've ever gotten when telling someone you play D&D (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=898514)
GnomeBoy 11-19-07, 04:11 PM	If your judges can't see the difference between "fantasy" and "reality" you might as well replace them with 15 year old girls (or so I have been told). Ah, but to give you a hint of the mindset of the lawyers (not the judges) who might act as prosecution: They could try to make a case that adult males were using a 'fantasy role-playing game' to entrap underage girls. The judge would have to make the call, but depending on the case... who knows where it would go? Ever read The Crucible?
CryoSilver 11-19-07, 05:10 PM	Really? In this situation? He would be powerless to the law? Powerless? I hate to say it, but then something is seriously and fundamentally wrong with your justice system. If your judges can't see the difference between "fantasy" and "reality" you might as well replace them with 15 year old girls (or so I have been told). Our justice system is flawed in some areas, yes. And this is surely one of them. Americans have this weird relationship with sex, where it's either the best thing ever, or it's worse than Satan strangling an orphan with a kitten's entrails. I blame TV and evangelicals, respectively. But this is one of those cases where the pendulum of the law has swung too far to the side of caution. It is slowly swinging back, but for the moment, the difference between a role-played relationship and a real one will be ignored.
kiananiobe 11-19-07, 05:28 PM	The Crucible? You are referring to the 1953 play by Arthur Miller, based on events that happened during the Salem Witch trial? A play... even based on events that indeed did occur however accurate they are historically documented, plays are still works of fiction. If you were to bring up some actual mass hysteria brought upon by hear-say, like the witch trials themselves, it would be something different. But anyways, Mr. Axehammer asked us rather desperately for some roleplaying advise, lso et's give some. He said he has never played a married character before, and would be in the dark as to how to play this regardless of who is playing his wife. Unfortunately i also am not familiar with xephs, lurks or spirit shamans specifically, so these ideas are more of a general nature. -buying presents is the best! You might still run into some trickiness. Maybe your DM has an evil inspirational moment (I know mine always have) and decide that NPCs might also buy your wife a gift? So be prepared and spend some skillpoints in cooking :) Meals are a far more personal gift and can't be replaced as easily. Just don't go feeding her whatever you cook up in the beginning - and keep her away from gourmet chefs. Or something more fancy like goldsmithing and make her jewelry :) -hey now, don't give presents at random, save them for the special occasions! Maybe you don't keep track of time when you play D&D, but here is a good reason to. Birthdays, half year wedding anniversary, maybe there are cultural holidays celebrating marriage or love or something <3 Ideal opportunity to hand over something special. -meet the parents (or were they dead?). If not dead, meeting eachothers family could be a whole story arc in itself, all the traveling and whatnot. -just like in real life there must be some common goal to adventuring together. Not just for now, but also in the future. If you are playing a truly long-term campaign, it is natural for the characters to agree on something too. I don't know if you already have done so. Maybe save up all your money and build a nice orphanage, so you still have kids to share? Write a journal on your travels and discoveries together? -don't die willingly and knowingly in order for her to live. How cruel is that? You leave her to live the rest of her life without you, whom she loves so dearly? No, that's the worst there is. She might just roleplay a real female and commit suicide before thinking of raising options. Show faith in her capabilities as a fighter, know eachothers combat tactics by heart, in fact, train your combat skills together if you have the chance ^.^ well thats all the ideas I had for now, hope you can use some and have fun!
The_Shaman 11-19-07, 05:34 PM	Take it from a guy who used to be a 15-year old boy, who used to dream about dating the girls he was "married" to in the various musicals and stage dramas he performed in: Love and Realism do not work together all that well, especially when you're a teenager and too damn lusty for your own good. Not that EVERYONE is like that, or that a 15-year old girl will necessarily give a damn about someone twice her age, but hey, a little paranoia never hurt anynone, right? And in this case, we're more worried about the parents of that 15-year old girl who might just be overprotective or paranoid when their little daughter's romantic and/or sexual behavior is involved. And when their children are concerned - especially daughters afaik - parents get very paranoid and overprotective.
GnomeBoy 11-19-07, 07:38 PM	The Crucible? You are referring to the 1953 play by Arthur Miller, based on events that happened during the Salem Witch trial? A play... even based on events that indeed did occur however accurate they are historically documented, plays are still works of fiction. If you were to bring up some actual mass hysteria brought upon by hear-say, like the witch trials themselves, it would be something different. Would it have been better to bring up the McCarthy hearings, to which Arthur Miller's play was a response? ...I just thought the whole society-listening-to-hysterical-girls thing was closer to the mark... As you say, its a play written in reference to actual events. Anyway, the comment was more about illustrating a mentality the poster was having trouble understanding, than it was about any legal precident. I'm not a lawyer. Heck, I'm not even a rules lawyer. As for marriage: What's all this giving presents stuff? Sure I give my wife little presents, but what marriage is about is turning your efforts to the relationship. When you give up something you want (to do, to get, etc) you don't do it for your spouse (that path leads to resentment), you give it up to the relationship. If you forgo bowling night with the guys, its not because she prefers it that way, but hopefully because it will reinforce and grow the relationship you have together. Not that you have to give up bowling night... but you do have to give up something.... Build some RP on that notion.
danielinthewolvesden 11-19-07, 08:58 PM	I think there is 0 chance of the OP being sued,:rolleyes: but there was clearly a 100% chance of the OP losing out on a small-moderate amout of FUN as the situation made him uncomfortable. Thus, we came to a correct answer and it worked out. Tort law is remarkably similar in the EU compared to the USA, mind you.
niikeb 11-19-07, 08:59 PM	Honestly whats the worst if your character decides to divorce her and they spend the rest of the game bickering. Now THAT is fun!
2nd Ed Paladin 11-20-07, 01:19 PM	Is it a LARP campaign? I realize I'm a little late to the game with that one but after the first post it was the first thing I thought of and thought it was funny. Anyway, incredibly late irrelevent post aside, glad the new situation is more comfortable for you.
Dougan Axehammer 11-20-07, 01:48 PM	No, it's not a LARP; I don't immerse myself into a character enough to enjoy LARP. I think there is 0 chance of the OP being sued,:rolleyes: but there was clearly a 100% chance of the OP losing out on a small-moderate amout of FUN as the situation made him uncomfortable. Thus, we came to a correct answer and it worked out. It wasn't so much that I was uncomfortable with the situation; I just felt awkward with roleplaying a marriage with a 15-year old girl. What I wanted to know is how I would make the most of it without offending anybody. Clearly, the opinion of the majority is that it wouldn't be possible to do such, and that it would become unnecessarily complicated. So, I decided to simply bow out of the "marriage" and carry on with the campaign. I don't enjoy making such decisions as it could still ruin the chance for a fun game. Unfortunately, it's too late for that now; I've spoken with my DM and the proverbial baton has passed to the DM's 15 year-old son. I wish him the best and hope that he not only does a good job roleplaying, but that he also enjoys it. (Although, with all the new support and the extra ideas, I wonder if I'll regret my decision.) That said, what ideas can I give him to spur creative roleplaying?
kiananiobe 11-20-07, 02:06 PM	additional ideas: -check what is written in the Book of Erotic Fantasy - and do none of it just to be safe :p Also this site has some interesting views on how to play marriages: http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/DMRomance.html No in game ideas really, more about how you can use this element of life in game and be comfortable with it and have it work out in the campaign setting. Drow are bi? how fascinating! Let's fade to black. -have a garment/armor tailor made to her sizes :) (still fitting under presents...pamper your loved ones!) -still no in game ideas >_< I'm just really curious what you would have done if the 15yo had in fact been a boy playing the same character. It boggles me, so many possibilities to react... which would it be? lmao it happened just as i was posting...
Dougan Axehammer 11-20-07, 02:25 PM	additional ideas: -check what is written in the Book of Erotic Fantasy - and do none of it just to be safe :p Also this site has some interesting views on how to play marriages: http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/DMRomance.html No in game ideas really, more about how you can use this element of life in game and be comfortable with it and have it work out in the campaign setting. Drow are bi? how fascinating! Let's fade to black. This is a non-suggestion; besides the fact that it isn't an appropriate source, but you're basicly telling me to not use it for inspiration. Thank you, but I would prefer to hear some ideas that are both useful and age appropriate (think somewhere around PG-13 or younger.)I'm just really curious what you would have done if the 15yo had in fact been a boy playing the same character. It boggles me, so many possibilities to react... which would it be? This would never be a situation in my group: we don't allow gender-bending characters and we would certainly not allow same-sex relationships. (We had a player who's tried both with the same character and it was a horrible experience; it is not allowed any more and we have dismissed him from the group.)
metalmayhem80110 11-20-07, 05:41 PM	Just this weekend, I began a campaign starting with 9th-level characters. Most of the session consisted of character creation, but we were able to get some background play done (home-brew world, very nice setup.) As part of the background, the DM decided that the party had been adventuring (practically non-stop) for the past five years. Also according to the DM, it turns out that for four of those five years I have had a serious relationship with one of the other PCs culminating in wedlock two months before the campaign begins. Adding that complexity intrigues me, so I'd like to know some ways I can enhance my roleplay of it (my first idea was a couple rings of telepathy.) However, for a couple of reasons it is an awkward situation. First, I just happen to married IRL, and not to the person I have an in game relationship with. I'm content with my real relationship and would prefer to stay married. So I've discussed this with my wife and she's okay with it... as long as it doesn't get too personal. To complicate matters, my counterpart in this relationship is a 15 year old girl. I'm hoping that she is responsible enough and mature enough to keep this strictly "professional", but I'm concerned as to the content of the roleplay. Since I've never had this kind of aspect for a character before, I have no idea how to approach it. Any advice at all? That just about made my idea. I'm still cracking up about it :P Well, I'm 15 and I've been forced into roles like this before. It's not hard to handle if she tries. But I know some other players who feel that going to cut-seens are bad ideas... Having the "screen" go black when you and her are alone so you don't have to describe everythign will be really helpful. Everybody knows what is happening, but at the same time you didn't have to go into detail about it.
GnomeBoy 11-20-07, 05:44 PM	This would never be a situation in my group: we don't allow gender-bending characters and we would certainly not allow same-sex relationships. (We had a player who's tried both with the same character and it was a horrible experience; it is not allowed any more and we have dismissed him from the group.) Wow, I'm genuinely interested in why a player couldn't play a character of the opposite gender in your group... (I'm assuming that by 'gender-bender' character you mean a player playing a character of the opposite gender from themselves). I can remember years ago bringing a female character to a convention game and some people perplexed as to how I would play a woman. My answer was that I would play her the same as playing a male. It's action-based fiction most of the time, with little flurishes of character interaction. Male or female, you react to what's happening infront of you. Never had it make all that much difference which gender my characters were, and about 1/4 of them over the years have been female. Mind you, I suppose someone could get obnoxious about it, but that's probably the same person that would just get obnoxious about the role-playing in any case.... I still think my basic suggestion above is good, but probably more than a 15-year-old can wrap their head around. Unless they are a very mature 15-year-old....
Ace_of_time 11-21-07, 02:38 AM	Does it get old with the DM always playing male NPCs?:D