Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wargamer 03-06-06, 04:19 AM	...and this is a problem. We've got a young lad who wants to learn how to DM games, and so he arranged a party, which I am a member of. The problem is that I keep getting the feeling I'm spoiling his ideas. For example, here is one of our conversations. I had been asked to do some scouting on the party's behalf, and try and find a way into a castle... DM: You approach the castle. It's heavily guarded, but the city grew up around it. In places, the buildings almost reach the top of the castle. It might even be possible to get onto the roof using the nearby buildings... ME: Do we know anything about this castle? The Guards, the guy inside? DM: Umm... I guess you would... make a knowledge check. ME: *Rolls.* With my modifiers, 22. DM: Right, you've heard he's corrupt and greedy. ME: What about the guards? Would we know anything about them? DM: Umm... ME: Okay, assume we don't... is anyone coming and going? DM: A few people... one or two... just general people. ME: "Commoners?" DM: Yeah. ME: Alright... I'm going to walk straight up to the guards. Remember, Tonberry wears clothes like those of the local priesthood... DM: Ummm... okay, the Guards want to know why you're going into the castle. ME: "Peace and, mmm, good fortune my friends. May Karma bless you, mmm, in your lives..." DM: "Where are you going?" ME: "I go where I am needed, mmm." DM: "We can't let you in." ME: Okay, how far away are these guys? DM: One is 5ft away, the other 20 ft. ME: Right... I'll step equal way between the two. "You would, mmm, bar my path? If I have offended you in any way, noble sirs, I apologise profusely..." I'll bow low to the two of them. *At this point, another member of the party points out I'm essentially blocking the door, and asks if other people would want to get in.* DM: Alright, the guards let you in... This pretty much continues for some time. I steal some Guard uniforms, and manage to sneak them to the rest of the party, who then stroll in bold as brass. The other party members enjoyed the idea of walking casually into the "Boss Room" as if we owned the place, but I did get the impression the DM was in way over his head. He isn't new to the game by any means, and comes up with some good ideas as a PC, but I think maybe he needs more time to be able to cope with random changes. In summary, should I allow my character to be rail-roaded for the sake of the DM?
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-06-06, 04:53 AM	That's a tough situation... railroading's no good, but neither is crushing the burgeoning DM with your apparently superior skills. Why don't you arrange to talk with him one on one (so you don't embarass him in front of the others) and ask if he'd like you to help him out from time to time. Get kind of a co-DM thing going on if he's willing. Let him run the show, but help him with ideas, rules difficulties and the like during or between sessions. If he's not willing of course, don't put too much pressure on, but if he'll go for it, the help may take the heat off so he can focus on learning how to do what he needs to.
DracoPhoenix 03-06-06, 05:35 AM	While I object to players who go out of their way to antagonise a new DM (not saying you are, but there are some out there). Allowing him to rail road you because he's new is a bad idea. Think long term - letting him rail road now will mean he'll be use to you doing as he say's and he won't learn how to dm on the fly. Instead, help him develop his skills. Make it clear you're not doing it to screw him over, and don't try to think outside the box every time (at least to start with ;)). Perhaps you could help him develop a fake campaign, have him design a senario and offer him advice on what could potentially happen, let him workout how that should happen - without simply railroading the party back to his idea. Get him to focus more on the objective than the how they achieve the objective. (Get in the castle as opposed to get in the castle via the rooftops, at night, with the scout, on tuesday) (Side note, a 20+ on a K check would probably warrent a bit more info than "he's corrupt" - and would probably mean his guards can be bribed :))
Feor 03-06-06, 08:49 AM	Don't let him railroad you too often, but don't push against it too hard. If you're obviously breaking his plans, but he manages to cover it pretty quickly, run with your new plan. If his entire scenario is floundering and he's spending extended time just seeming confused, back off and let him dictate your actions for a bit. Maybe even backtrack some, not in terms of gametime, but say, if he'd been completely lost with regards to the guard and how they'd react your character could give up on the plan and go in through the rooftops. The fact that you tried should be enough to get him thinking and considering what he should have done in the situation, which will just make him better at it, and so a better DM in the future.
LCD2YOU 03-06-06, 08:52 AM	That is a problem. The DM does not need to be the smartest person in the room, but they should be pretty darn close. What seems to matter more to being a DM is what I would call Wisdom. Seems you DM doesn't learn or learns very slowly. That is not good. Have you ever considered being a DM yourself?
Feriin 03-06-06, 09:10 AM	I say keep playing your character like you are. When I started DMing I wasn't preparred for what the players might do, It was a good learning experience for me. It helped make me get better at it. I also was lucky enough to play under a few really good DMs. I asked them for hints and tips that I still use to this day. While you are not playing try talking to him and give him a few pointers on what to expect and ideas on how to handle the randomness of players.
The White Sorcerer 03-06-06, 09:24 AM	DM: Alright, the guards let you in... This is where your DM made a mistake. The guards should've turned your character away. If I were a castle guard, I wouldn't let a stoned priest in just because he was on the way of other people. I would've removed him.
Novacat 03-06-06, 09:55 AM	How does someone become good at any game? When the people they play with play "cutthroat". Continually out-witting your DM may seem like bullying, but you're slowly making him a better DM, since he will learn to anticipate creative characters.
Wargamer 03-06-06, 09:59 AM	This is where your DM made a mistake. The guards should've turned your character away. If I were a castle guard, I wouldn't let a stoned priest in just because he was on the way of other people. I would've removed him. Who said he was stoned? He has a... well, I guess "tic" is as good a word as any, though it's not really a tic. Just be glad I didn't use a female character... I wouldn't have been sneaking in as a priest. ;)
DrMorganes 03-06-06, 10:04 AM	That, NovaCat, or he'll get sick of constantly losing (or being bullied by his player(s)) and quit. Personally, I don't see this as a case of Wargamer being smarter than his DM. Rather he's more experienced. D&D has a LOT of rules to deal with, and a new DM will frequently feel overwhelmed just managing the crunchy parts of the game. Toss in fluffy stuff like "who's in the castle, do we know anything about the guards?" and you've just dropped an anvil on the poor guy out of the clear blue sky. I'd say take him aside and just talk about the game, friend to friend. Review the current session and ask him how he felt about it. Be sure to let him know that you weren't trying to push him around or make him feel useless. Let him know that those sorts of questions should be expected from experienced players, and give him some pointers on how to prepare for the unexpected. One thing I noticed Wargamer didn't mention was the level of the party in question. Such questions from a group of low-level PCs are inappropriate; a Level 1-5 PC wouldn't have the time under his belt to know to ask such pointed questions. A truly good player can set aside his experience and run a low-level PC like the wide-eyed kid it (generally) is! In short, cut this newbie some slack and offer a little friendly mentoring. People don't like to get beaten up while doing things that are supposed to be fun.
Wargamer 03-06-06, 10:11 AM	I'd say take him aside and just talk about the game, friend to friend. Review the current session and ask him how he felt about it. Be sure to let him know that you weren't trying to push him around or make him feel useless. Let him know that those sorts of questions should be expected from experienced players, and give him some pointers on how to prepare for the unexpected. I'll be sure to do that. One thing I noticed Wargamer didn't mention was the level of the party in question. Such questions from a group of low-level PCs are inappropriate; a Level 1-5 PC wouldn't have the time under his belt to know to ask such pointed questions. A truly good player can set aside his experience and run a low-level PC like the wide-eyed kid it (generally) is! Now this I disagree with. A 1st level character (especially one with a PC class) is not some total whiteshield. A 1st level Fighter, for example, used to be classed as a "Veteran"; someone who had fought as part of an army, and turned to adventuring out of desire for excitement. I still hold true to this view of D&D; we don't need a world where the baker is a Level 8 Sorcerer, the local farmer is a Level 10 Druid, and the policeman is a Level 20 Paladin/10 Shadowbane Inquisitor. Adventurers are meant to be exceptional people... so why not assume they actually know what they're doing before running off into life-threatening lifestyles?
Dragen White 03-06-06, 10:45 AM	you know what i hate, is when you have a dm who knows less about game mechanics than you do, i like to use minatures, to display where my fireballs go off, and who im going to hit, he doesnt like to use minatures, "it takes to much time...blah" i like to use special rules like disarming, flanking, aiding another, fighting defensivly, and etc, but it seems everytime he has to look it up to find out what it exactly does, or makes it up as he goes, such as ok its the surprise round i get a sneak attack, and hes like, no you dont your equally surprised by the fey-ri in the room, that you didnt expect, so i then retort, ok initiative for the surprise round? and he says no just normal initiative, i dont see the diffrence, if im caught off guard but act faster than the fey, this is just an example of how he bends the rules, to his game, so i cant kill things, or disarm things in ways hes not comfortable with, such as he spends an hours creating this guy but fails to give him skills to not stop a feint. In the end result i have to bow down and be like whatever, because the DM has the final say so, i just wish he new the mechancs better.
beat_takeshi 03-06-06, 11:34 AM	It seems the dm lacks confidence. These are some possible reasons: 1. New to group and doesn't know how things go 2. Your pushy. We have no way of telling from this post if that is true. Some people might consider that his problem though 3. Doesn't get all the rules yet 4. Doesn't have a clear picture of the situation/ location/ story etc I would takle the 4th one. Either try to steer him toward one of the adventure books (they make it alot easier). Or encourage him to base the story on movies he knows well but no one else does ( I find this helps). Or encourage him to create truly legobrick adventures, for example I did one where the adventurers found themself in an evil temple, it was a maze inside, different doors would take them to different places and times- but they had very specific goals in each and limited freedoms. Sort of like a computer game I guess but fine for a while.
LordLeecho 03-06-06, 03:28 PM	As much as you guys may have been trying to "help" this DM, I think you guys pretty much pressured him into "the easy way out" which was your way. He may have felt pressure when you answered for him a few time, then when other members of the party jumped in stating that you blocked the path and maybe other people wanted in. Maybe the DM wasnt ready for a conflict at that point and he "ran" from it by letting you in. Now dont think I am attacking you right now, I can understand trying to work with a DM who has no idea what hes doing but you should "work with him" not answer questions for him. Dont ask "Do I know anything about the guards or the guys inside?"; maybe help him out a bit by asking, "Can I make a knowledge check to see if I know anything about the guards or the bad guy?" At least make him feel like he is running the mission. Give him something to work with and he may catch on fast. The DM should a good idea how a lot of the game mechanics and general rules work, but they do not have to the most rule savy person at the table at all. I DM a lot in my group and I dont know a lot of rules. Many of my players know way more then me. Doesnt matter because (here comes the screams of railroading), they play my game, I am DM, you do not always get a chance to kill the assassin who "tries" to kill you and delivers important information that starts adventures. Thats how stories start, you have choices of course but they are choices in situations I create thru your other choices. Taking a step back, how do you feel you need to let yourself be "railroaded" by this new DM?
Wargamer 03-06-06, 04:23 PM	Taking a step back, how do you feel you need to let yourself be "railroaded" by this new DM? By "Railroaded", I mean do what he seems to want the party to do. Smurf (we call him that... please don't ask why) isn't exactly a subtle individual... I can read what he's planning as if he had his thoughts displayed in neon green size 48 font on his forhead. This isn't to say he can't make a good campaign... just that I'm always half a step behind him in terms of plot unfurling... and usually about twenty to the side, where he didn't think anyone would try walking. I was thinking along the lines that, if I let him "railroad" the party, it would give me an idea of what sort of adventure he runs. He seems to get the core parts in, throwing in some unusual situations now and then (such as ambushing the party with monsters, then being attacked by the same monsters later, on their turf. Forcing the party to fight against the environment, as well as the enemy, is what I would consider the mark of a good DM). His weakness, it seems, is that he can't cope quite as well when things take a random and unexpected turn... and as many players will know, once a game has been shaken up, it's often hard to right it again.
psionichamster 03-06-06, 04:48 PM	as an experienced DM and player, who is fostering the ability to DM in some of my players (shy about the role, i feel), i have some tips for you. 1. DO NOT USE YOUR OOG ABILITIES. sure, YOU may be able to read the DM like a book. your character DOES NOT KNOW what the world is going to do/throw at them. your character may or may not suspect that bad-guy, or may suspect the "helpful" NPC in town. separate your IG and OOG personas, and you will find the game more enjoyable. 2. stop trying to outthink the DM. its fine and well if you can plan better, or adapt better, or improvise better than him. but when it becomes a competition to "do better than him" it's not conducive to the game. 3. don't answer for him. period. he needs to learn to think on his feet and you feeding him answers or prompts is not going to help that out. 4. try to ask SPECIFIC questions, rather than open-ended ones. DM: You approach the castle. It's heavily guarded, but the city grew up around it. In places, the buildings almost reach the top of the castle. It might even be possible to get onto the roof using the nearby buildings... ME: Do we know anything about this castle? The Guards, the guy inside? DM: Umm... I guess you would... make a knowledge check. ME: *Rolls.* With my modifiers, 22. his answer to you: DM: Right, you've heard he's corrupt and greedy. what my answer to you would have been: (assuming Knowledge:Local or Bardic Knowledge-neither of which are class skills of a cleric) His name is Baron Von Der Boor, and is the lord of this entire demense. there are rumors of corruption, as well as disgruntled peasants. (again, experienced DM that responds to your question w/ a deflection, a partial explanation, and an option to investigate further) ME: What about the guards? Would we know anything about them? his answer DM: Umm... mine: DM: no. they're guards, make a spot check. (spot would avail you of insignias, weapons, other features that would stand out...but nothing non-visual.) in conclusion, sounds like you need to cut this new DM a little slack, and stop using your OOG charisma and abilities to influence your IG reactions/questions/plans. also, if any of my players tried to sweettalk their way into the "Castle" of a corrupt lord, they would find themselves quickly led into a trap, disarmed, and likely imprisoned. or hanged, depending on their methods/legal status. again, it seems like you're riding roughshod on the DM, not your character doing so to the NPC's, and that's not cool. namaste' the hamster
20goingon1232 03-06-06, 06:19 PM	I don't know. It seems the OP is more about showing off his apparent superior knowledge of DnD and his superior RP skills than anything else. Seriously: "ME: What about the guards? Would we know anything about them? DM: Umm... ME: Okay, assume we don't... is anyone coming and going?" Hello? Let the kid think and come up with an answer instead of pushing him to make up his decision in the snap of a finger. Not everyone can think fast on their feet. Keep pushing him, and the next thing we'll see is a thread over at the DM board complaining about a terrible player that made the DM go: DM: I'll let you have it for 1000gp Player: 600 DM: 900 Player: 800 DM: 700 Player: Done! Hahaha!!!! DM: &%*(%^*&%^%*! The above is funny if it was done as part of a comedy routine. It is less funny when it is the DM being so used to being pushed by the player that he make such basic mistakes. If I was the DM in this case, I'd have an arrow come out of nowhere and catch you in the throat, killing you instantly for being so pushy. No rolls, nothing. Hmmm... Sounds familiar, that...
Sikyanakotik 03-06-06, 07:28 PM	Alright, everyone here seems to be trying to "fix" this situation, but I don't see anything that's really wrong here. The only thing going on is that your Dungeon Master is still a Dungeon Novice. Of course he's not going to run sophisticated adventures and be good at impprovising right off the bat! He still needs the time and practice to build the confidence and skills he needs to run a good game. I think the "Assistant DM" idea mentioned earlier might be a good idea, at least until he seems to be able to run the game well on his own. He's still rough right now, but with a little effort you can make a great DM out of him yet. Oh, and recommend that he picks up a copy of Robin's Laws. It can be quite helpful.
rockondon 03-06-06, 08:18 PM	I'm sorry, all I read was: "OMG I'm so smart I think I'll make a thread about how smart I am. Hey everybody I play this game where I'm smarter than everyone and there's this DM who's dumb compared to me and since I'm so smart I can read his mind and I boss him around and stuff and it's a real big problem. I'm a victim of my own amazing intellect. Can you guys please help me?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
20goingon1232 03-06-06, 08:56 PM	I'm sorry, all I read was: "OMG I'm so smart I think I'll make a thread about how smart I am. Hey everybody I play this game where I'm smarter than everyone and there's this DM who's dumb compared to me and since I'm so smart I can read his mind and I boss him around and stuff and it's a real big problem. I'm a victim of my own amazing intellect. Can you guys please help me?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :OMG! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You said what I really, really, truly wanted to say. However, you do realise that this will open you up to persecution by the politically correct bleeding-heart brigade of the boards, right? :D
rockondon 03-06-06, 09:21 PM	I'm pretty sure everyone was thinkin it. I just said it. Some things need to be said. I suppose I shall now ready myself for the bleeding-heart brigade :cool:
Sikyanakotik 03-06-06, 09:37 PM	Oh, grow up you two. :rolleyes:
Feor 03-06-06, 09:37 PM	I'm pretty sure everyone was thinkin it. I just said it. Some things need to be said. I suppose I shall now ready myself for the bleeding-heart brigade :cool: I wasn't thinking it, though right now I'm thinking you're making fun of someone who's actually trying to help his friend be a better DM. Why are so many people accusing this guy of just trying to fould up his friend, when the first line of his post after the title of "I'm smarter than the DM..." was "...and this is a problem." He did what he'd normally do while playing D&D, the DM wasn't that experianced and ended up floundering a bit. He came here to ask if he was too tough on the kid, we've basicalyl answered "A little bit, yeah." Then you and a couple other rabble rousers come around and start calling him a jerk for trying to help his friend. Some people just need a good smack. mini-rant done, we now return you to your regularly schedule postings.
20goingon1232 03-06-06, 09:40 PM	Oh, grow up you two. :rolleyes: :eek: But-but-but... where is the fun in that??? I'm pretty sure everyone was thinkin it. I just said it. Some things need to be said. I suppose I shall now ready myself for the bleeding-heart brigade :cool: Yes, well. The truth does not matter. And yes, be prepared for an e-mail in your inbox. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt :D
allenchan 03-06-06, 10:43 PM	Hey, Wargamer, why not just shoot him in the throat with an arrow covered in autokill poison? :rolleyes:
Good Agnostic 03-06-06, 11:54 PM	I don't think any of us have been in a game where the DM was absolutely better than ALL the players at EVERY aspect of the game. We all have strong and weak points: mechanics, plot, character, strategy, quick wit, etc. I once heard a great expression on the boards, and someone please give the appropriate citation if you know it, about "Playing into the game" (PITG). That is, players can create and direct characters that either go with or against the game (and the DM). The classic example is the dark loner who is supposed to somehow be worked into the cheerful team. I'd say to just play into this DM's strengths and hold back on confronting his weaknesses. If you are really going to be doing alot of interaction with NPC's, give the DM a heads up - have your character discuss what questions he's going to ask with the other PC's - "get ready for these questions DM". Then get up and take a bathroom break. Then resume play, with a DM who has prepared some answers. I think that might help everyone.
green_yawgmoth 03-07-06, 04:53 PM	I would suggest a co-DM kind of thing. He plans out something, then you show him the obvious holes, and he fixes them. Some people are great at planning and improvisation, and some need a bit of help. It sounds like he's making one-track plans, and as soon as you do something he doesn't expect, he falls on his face. I think co-DMing a game or two might help him where he needs help. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Delfedd 03-07-06, 05:07 PM	I agree with Yawgmoth. I went into this post under the impression that it would be some noob being all "Hah hah, he doesn't know that I bought the adventure" or something stupid. No offense. Speaking of buying adventures, I'd suggest that he gets a subscription to dungeon magazine.
20goingon1232 03-08-06, 08:07 PM	I wasn't thinking it, though right now I'm thinking you're making fun of someone who's actually trying to help his friend be a better DM. Why are so many people accusing this guy of just trying to fould up his friend, when the first line of his post after the title of "I'm smarter than the DM..." was "...and this is a problem." He did what he'd normally do while playing D&D, the DM wasn't that experianced and ended up floundering a bit. He came here to ask if he was too tough on the kid, we've basicalyl answered "A little bit, yeah." Then you and a couple other rabble rousers come around and start calling him a jerk for trying to help his friend. Some people just need a good smack. mini-rant done, we now return you to your regularly schedule postings. You haven't seen his thread in the DM board, have you? Allenchan - :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Rian Lightblade 03-08-06, 08:20 PM	I'm sorry, all I read was: "OMG I'm so smart I think I'll make a thread about how smart I am. Hey everybody I play this game where I'm smarter than everyone and there's this DM who's dumb compared to me and since I'm so smart I can read his mind and I boss him around and stuff and it's a real big problem. I'm a victim of my own amazing intellect. Can you guys please help me?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Wow. I'm going to have to agree with 20goingon1213, you took the words right out of my mind. :pint:
shadowfox628 03-08-06, 08:24 PM	Well, first off, not all good PC's are good DM's. I can come up with some entertaining ideas on the spot, but my last campain was horrible (lack of plot, and too many people... Absolutely no coorperation). Anyway, it's not a matter of being smarter. DMing is WAY different than PCing. There's a lot more to account for. PC's ask questions, and DM's have to give them answers. Anyway, if you're causing too many problems with the DM, he should confront you. but, you should confront him and ask if you should, I guess, lay low on "the good ideas."
Zombayz1 03-08-06, 10:17 PM	Go easy on him he's new! But don't let him railroad ya. Tell him he ought to start off easy (a dungeon delve^o^)