Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Akisa 01-18-08, 09:37 PM	I'm a level 9 bard with a +4 Inspire Courage (I could get an extra +1 from Vest of legends or Badge of Valor or +2 with both). I start combat with bardic music and then move to flanking position and then cast Haste next round. If it's difficult fight I may cast Tactical Precision, blur or mirror image. At level 10 I'm likely going to cast greater invisibility on the rogue. It feels like I'm not doing anything worth of merit, is there anything else I could do?
Prator_The_Golden 01-18-08, 09:40 PM	Thank you. Now that we know exactly what you're doing... Assuming that you have no problem with being a supporter to begin with, what's the problem? Are you not dealing any significant damage in combat? Does it seem like your illusion spells don't do crap? Are the other players calling you names? Details, man! We need details!
Akisa 01-18-08, 09:48 PM	You must have read my post as I went back and edited it, well anyway I feel like I'm not accomplishing much. It sometimes feel like I'm just a wasted slot and I'm not doing much to help the party. I'm use to playing some other class that can deal damage, cleric, rogue, druid, ranger etc.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:01 PM	Do you greatly increase the damage of the party? If so, you are contributing. Does the party go "squee" when you help them deal damage? Then you are contributing. You don't need to contribute damage directly, indirect damage is fine. And have you bought any social skills? Chances are, the others didn't and nearly every party has the character that you don't allow to speak in front of important, powerful NPC's. If you doubt it, ask your party. Chances are, they don't mind that you are helping their characters do more. And if they complain that while you buff the bejeezus out of them that you should do damage directly...Then they are silly. There might be a prestige class for you, I know of at least one that gives you full bardic music/bardic song from what I read, and might add to your offensive capability. It allows you to cast gust of wind and thunder strike/greater thunder strike. It is in frostburn(Stormsinger) but the drawback is that you lose out on BAB, since the progression is 1/2 level. If that doesn't suit you, consider looking in the splatbooks for more spells, including lovely lovely lovely buff spells. And if someone complains? Put your buffage on someone else, and try to see how awesome you can make the other character, and see if you can completely overshadow the complainer.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:07 PM	Do you greatly increase the damage of the party? If so, you are contributing. Does the party go "squee" when you help them deal damage? Then you are contributing. You don't need to contribute damage directly, indirect damage is fine. And have you bought any social skills? Chances are, the others didn't and nearly every party has the character that you don't allow to speak in front of important, powerful NPC's. If you doubt it, ask your party. Chances are, they don't mind that you are helping their characters do more. And if they complain that while you buff the bejeezus out of them that you should do damage directly...Then they are silly. There might be a prestige class for you, I know of at least one that gives you full bardic music/bardic song from what I read, and might add to your offensive capability. It allows you to cast gust of wind and thunder strike/greater thunder strike. It is in frostburn(Stormsinger) but the drawback is that you lose out on BAB, since the progression is 1/2 level. If that doesn't suit you, consider looking in the splatbooks for more spells, including lovely lovely lovely buff spells. And if someone complains? Put your buffage on someone else, and try to see how awesome you can make the other character, and see if you can completely overshadow the complainer.
Illithid Tentacles 01-18-08, 10:07 PM	Double post.
Illithid Tentacles 01-18-08, 10:10 PM	You're playing a support character. You're doing what support characters do. Support characters often have a much less visible impact on battles than the characters they're supporting, but if you look closely, yes, it's there.
Akisa 01-18-08, 10:17 PM	Do you greatly increase the damage of the party? If so, you are contributing. Does the party go "squee" when you help them deal damage? Then you are contributing. You don't need to contribute damage directly, indirect damage is fine. And have you bought any social skills? Chances are, the others didn't and nearly every party has the character that you don't allow to speak in front of important, powerful NPC's. If you doubt it, ask your party. Chances are, they don't mind that you are helping their characters do more. And if they complain that while you buff the bejeezus out of them that you should do damage directly...Then they are silly. There might be a prestige class for you, I know of at least one that gives you full bardic music/bardic song from what I read, and might add to your offensive capability. It allows you to cast gust of wind and thunder strike/greater thunder strike. It is in frostburn(Stormsinger) but the drawback is that you lose out on BAB, since the progression is 1/2 level. If that doesn't suit you, consider looking in the splatbooks for more spells, including lovely lovely lovely buff spells. And if someone complains? Put your buffage on someone else, and try to see how awesome you can make the other character, and see if you can completely overshadow the complainer. No one is complaining, it's just my personal feelings I have and kept quiet. I haven't had much time to influence NPC but I did managed to get audience with a reclusive prince while the party talked about breaking in a crowded bar -_-'.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:24 PM	They are probably not complaining because you are helping and you can sweet talk the NPC's. If need be, diplomacy and leadership are your best buds. I have a strange feeling that the campaign is highly combat based, if so, don't sink too much into diplomacy. However, support is PRICELESS. I cannot stress how much teamwork is helpful. And with the right spells, you could probably turn the tank into a chainsaw in full plate. Contribution is not how much damage you can do, but if you did actions which lead to victory. Making the fighter beat the stuffing out of anything, something he might not be able to accomplish on his own, is contribution, through rather indirectly. But are you happy playing this? Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you don't appear to be having fun with this.
Akisa 01-18-08, 10:33 PM	Like I said in my previous post no one was complaining it's just personal feeling I have. The last session with combat was three sessions ago, it didn't felt like I was doing much. The next session was mostly character interaction and yesterday session is when I got the audience with the prince. There maybe combat next session, I'll probably try avoid combat instead use some sort of con game.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:34 PM	What spells have you picked? And can you give us a quick run down of the last combat session? And do you have UMD? Craft whatever? Profession? Alchemy?
Akisa 01-18-08, 10:43 PM	Well my c-sheet is here (http://rpgprofiler.ghoulgamers.com/view.php?id=315)
Artector 01-18-08, 10:49 PM	What spells have you picked? And can you give us a quick run down of the last combat session? And do you have UMD? Craft whatever? Profession? Alchemy? I concur, investing in a wand or two with UMD would give you nice versatility in power. But honestly if you want to see your impact.... add up the extra damage your party is dealing because of you. The fighter, probably full base attack, so he'll have 2 attacks. Haste makes 3 attacks. Assuming those 3 attacks land (2 of them should) while you Inspired them then that's 12+damage of 1 of the fighter's attacks (Since he wouldn't have that attack if you hadn't Hasted him). Then spread that out to the rest of the party. Even with 2 members (or so) full attacking that's 24 or so damage they wouldn't be doing without you. Add in the +4 on attack rolls and +1 from haste and they are also hitting 25% more of the time. Then factor in Flanking with the fighter and that's another 10% increase. [I think that's right on the percentages] Spells like Blur means that the party takes considerably less damage as many things have to roll a dodgy miss chance to hit whoever's effected, this saves resources for the healer and allows them to be more action effective and deal more damage, as a result of you casting that spell. I hope you feel better now. Though you aren't the tank that gets to yell out "59 damage!", you certainly do your fair share. Now if you wan to have more impact with either your Bardic Music or spells, I'd suggest cracking open Complete Arcane and checking out Sublime Chord or Seeker of the Song. I haven't actually played them, but they'd let you do different things.
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:51 PM	Where do you want to go with this character? She looks like an excellent diplomacy monkey, through your dissatisfaction comes from her lack of combat ability. Is buffing alright in battle, or do you want to do more? And what do Tactical Precision and Speechlink do? And which craft do you have?
Droma 01-18-08, 10:52 PM	I'd take a look at the sublime chord out of complete arcane, it gains sorc/wiz casting as well as continuing bardic music uses. It also gives a couple unique new abilities. If your looking to do more mellee damage then you may want to think about taking rogue lvls.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-18-08, 10:53 PM	Seeker of the Song. If you focus on your perform and bardic music abilities, your allies won't give a crap if you ever hurt anything or not, because of the massive boosts you'll be handing out whenever you sing/play. The second level ability of the Seeker allows you to use two bardic music effects at once. Never discount this. I have a 20th level bard who carries no weapon, has no damage dealing spells, and yet is considered an extremely valued party member. You can do this too. A few feat suggestions: Music of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) gives boosts to several of the feats in that book, and to bards in general. Lingering Song (I think that's what it's called) doubles duration of your music. Melodic Casting lets you do several useful things. Bards are the ultimate support. You are useful :)
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 10:55 PM	Don't bards get whips? If so, consider disarming people. YOINK! Mine now!
Kala2000 01-19-08, 05:02 AM	Double post. where
kelvinaw273 01-19-08, 06:43 AM	Bards are not damage dealers, they are talkers and buffers and counter-spellers. Look at it this way: you are the fifth wheel, yes, but you are also the spare tire. Fighter goes down? You can step in and hold the line a few rounds, maybe use Aid Another to help the cleric fight. Cleric goes down? you have the cure spells to bring him up again. Rogue goes down? You are reasonably stealthy and can open locks. Wizard goes down? You have enough magic to stalemate that enemy mage for a while. The rest of the time you are inspiring others to do what they do, only better.
Guardian1 01-19-08, 11:41 AM	They are probably not complaining because you are helping and you can sweet talk the NPC's. If need be, diplomacy and leadership are your best buds. I have a strange feeling that the campaign is highly combat based, if so, don't sink too much into diplomacy. However, support is PRICELESS. I cannot stress how much teamwork is helpful. And with the right spells, you could probably turn the tank into a chainsaw in full plate. Contribution is not how much damage you can do, but if you did actions which lead to victory. Making the fighter beat the stuffing out of anything, something he might not be able to accomplish on his own, is contribution, through rather indirectly. But are you happy playing this? Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you don't appear to be having fun with this. I remember one campaign I was in where I was running a VoP monk. Yeah, cheesy, I know, but he was the closest thing to a tank we had. At one particular fight, the party bard and party cleric, through careful use of spells and abilities, gave my character a full +11 to both attack and damage. This, when combined with my AC and already nice attack and damage bonuses, made my monk into the D&D equivalent of an M1 Abrams. The point of this is to say that bards are not meant to be combat machines or heavy artillery. The saying goes "Jack of all trades, master of none". They're somewhat capable in a bunch of different things, but they're made to shine as a support class. Yes, you can do some of the things that other classes can do, but your main job is to make the other classes better at what they do. As long as you're doing that, you're contributing to the party. Keep at it, and good luck.
Bergtann 01-19-08, 12:07 PM	I second the Sublime Chord. Although I think you'll need a few hanges to your skill points to qualify. It makes you a major spellcaster. You can top it up with Abjurant Champion. Or, if you can change a couple of things about your character (rebuild, dark chaos shuffle, reformation) do level 10 as a Maelconvoker 1, 11 as a sublime chord, then the rest as Maelconvoker. Or similarily, Eldrich Knight 1 at 10, Sublime Chrod 1 at 11, then Eldrich Knight to 10.
Noria Merfolk Mage 01-19-08, 01:04 PM	I don't see how +4 attack and Damage on top of Haste and other buffs doesn't count as contributing. Maybe it's the makeup of the group: If the other players are 2 wizards, a rogue who continually hides in combat, and a fighter who trips opponents for the other party members, the bonuses might not seem to be being used. Or it could just be that because you yourself aren't rolling fistfuls of dice like the others, you don't seem to be doing anything where in actual fact you're doing lots of stuff for the team.
Bopple 01-19-08, 09:52 PM	Many casual bard players feel the similar. Bards seem cool and all that. But they start to find supporting in combat is not really exciting, after several sessions. That is why bard needs careful planning beforehand. As others said, I recommend Sublime Chord.
Ikyotojin 01-19-08, 10:07 PM	I have a character that started with the first AD&D game - he was a gnome thief/illusionist of BARELY 3' tall. Over the years he became the single character no one would go into battle without... And he wasn't big enough to do anything other than toss rocks and the occasional spell. Since then he's been re-created as a halfling rouge/mage - and the new players SILL won't go into battle without him around. He can pop a few good sling shots out, and his spells are centered around hiding, tricking and annoying the hell out of opponents. Why do people want them around? Because of the support! The cleric knows he'll slow down people going after her, the fighters are thus kept in shape and protected, the mage can count on him to point out weaknesses to exploit (and warning her when there is something casting counter spells)... And he usually does this while hiding like the undersized "coward" he is. Play the guy who keeps people going - and then role play a sore throat. Talk to your DM off to the side and watch the other players get those "uh oh, we're boned" looks when they are told the bard is sick and can't do those little extras. ROLE PLAYING is more than fighting. You can use your charm to increase to money from selling loot, get better rooms at inns, convince clerics that the charred boot with some soot and burnt bone would be better as the fighter who will help defend against the dragon who crisped him up in the first place... You make the character into something worth while and it WILL be worth while. If not, roll up something you WANT to play more.
njaques 01-20-08, 01:52 AM	it seems he may want to more actively contribute. bard song+ buffing may be the most efficient/effective thing to do in a fight, but it is not the most interesting if you are used to playing stabby classes. Perhaps invest in a +1 rapier or better yet a MW whip for some tactical options. A destructive or controlling wand or some bow feats and a better bow could be interesting as well. You could even grab a level or two of fighter to get more feats and options. once again, this is not the best option for aiding your party, but it might make the more fun if singing back-up is disinteresting to you.
Belljar 01-20-08, 11:24 AM	Even more fun than a MW whip is a MW Whip Dagger (Arms and Equipment Guide). Deals lethal damage from 15' away, and can still trip and disarm. If you can afford the Disarming or Sweeping properties (Magic Item Compendium), even better, and the spell Improvisation (Spell Compendium) makes it easier, with some fun other bonuses too. As for being useful in combat, I play a Bard myself and find that while my Whip Dagger adds to my tactical value, I'm still fairly marginal in the damage-dealing end of things, but I can still contribute (I use Sonic Weapon for a damage boost). I don't solo enemies, but I can sometimes pull off a crucial move like disarming the enemy mage's wand, or tripping someone, and I can still get out my MW Longsword and attempt to hold the line or perhaps my shortbow and shoot from afar. Your mileage may vary as it's really in how you get satisfaction out of an encounter, but personally I'm quite satisfied when I can say "Oh yeah, don't forget +2 for Bard Song!", or I whip out a Cure Light Wounds wand and bring an ally back from the brink. Bards are not superstars in killing enemies, but they are in helping everyone else do the actual killing. And when it comes time to tell the tale of your accomplishment in the local inn it's not like any of the other characters can contradict you if you embellish a little. :D
Avoraciopoctules 01-20-08, 01:06 PM	If you want increased direct damage, I think there's a feat called Dragonfire Inspiration in Dragon Magic that allows you to trade a d6 of energy damage for each +1 to hit granted by your bard song. You need to take Dragontouched (another feat from the same book) in order to qualify. If you can find a source of retraining, this could significantly increase the party's damage potential against easy to hit enemies.
eamon 01-20-08, 03:29 PM	Sublime chord is good. If it isn't what you're looking for, and if your charisma is high, you could take a few levels of marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) for the minor aura. Four levels of marshal grant a +3 bab, 2 minor aura's know, a useful ability to grant your allies an extra move action 1/day, and a "major" aura. The minor aura's don't scale with level but with your cha bonus (+5 on your character sheet), and can be quite strong, therefore, There's one which will grant your charisma bonus on dexterity checks and initiative, which is extremely handy (+5 for everyone's init!). There's one which grant's bonus on checks to overcome spell resistance, if your caster friends often have that problem. There's one which grant's the bonus on rolls to confirm criticals (+5 is nothing to sneeze at...). There's one that grants a bonus on wisdom (skill) checks - +5 spot/listen for everyone right there. There's one that add's damage when flanking, and one that adds to trip/disarm/sunder/bull rush checks. There's also the swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) prestige class, which you might qualify for (esp. with some DM help.). It's on the wizards site. It's not bad, but you're a little late for going in to it and it takes a while to really shine, but, for instance, it (at 9th level) improves haste to grant an extra standard action or move action each round. It's pretty strong, but you'd have wanted to enter earlier, since it takes a while to really shine.
kelvinaw273 01-21-08, 04:40 AM	Arcane strike - sacrifice a spell cast for +1 to hit and +1d4 damage per spell level always helps.
aikimiller 01-21-08, 10:30 AM	From a combat perspective, bards aren't very exciting. They don't do much on their own. They are fairly versatile though, and there are some prestige classes out there that do some fairly ridiculous things for them, but it requires some planning. Greater invisability will make the rogue your best friend. Seriously. As far as increasing your combat ability, there isn't much you can do this late in the game. You could multi-class, a few levels of fighter and you could get the feats for disarming. Paladin with the devoted performer feat could also be interesting. Either would give you a few more options on weapons, and you could pick up a feat to ignore spell failure in medium armor.
Aricandor 01-21-08, 12:26 PM	Haste and +4 bard song on the rogue alone (and then Greater Invisibility, just as you plan) is well worth your actions. If you detailed the party composition it'd be easier to say how much you contribute beyond this. Apart from that, Sublime Chord and Seeker of the Song are indeed excellent classes to look into if you wish to further improve your impact on combat. And I'll also second the notion that support is usually vastly under-appreciated. A Haste spell is likely to have far greater impact on a battle than a Fireball, for example. It's just not as easy to directly see it directly.
BloodDragon 01-21-08, 01:01 PM	Your a bard? I personally suggest not the best option but certainly a very fun option, that's bound to get some recognition: War Weaver from the "Hero's of Battle" book. Why bother casting a spell multiple times when once will do the trick? You need enlarge spell some how though. Most importently: Tell your DM you feel this way.
CelineSSauve 01-21-08, 02:08 PM	where The post below the one you quored. Play the guy who keeps people going - and then role play a sore throat. Talk to your DM off to the side and watch the other players get those "uh oh, we're boned" looks when they are told the bard is sick and can't do those little extras. Oh come on now. That's just plain mean! Hillarious, but mean. The OP's already stated that the group sees no problem with the Bard's help, and that's more along the line of the "I love you like meat loves salt" (or something along those lines) where the daughter needs to wait years to prove why those words are the best blessing she could have given her father. As for Bards in general. I've never played any, but I am starting a Gestalt game soon and two of the Players decided that one of their Classes would be a Bard with no prompting from me. After they'd decided on their Classes I told them both that their bonuses would stack if they happened to use the same song as the other. You should have seen the other Players' reactions when they heard that. Then again, both seem to understand how you feel with wanting to have more direct damage. One is a /Fighter who is going Dervish, the other a /Swashbuckler who will, um, bucker swashes? Thanksfully, I've gotten advice on how to deal with Gestalt encounters or the groups would slice through all my encouters with no problems with those two. :)
Bergtann 01-22-08, 07:01 PM	War Weaver option is interesting! Bard 9/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver +4 would rock!
Akisa 02-02-08, 12:36 PM	War Weaver option is interesting! Bard 9/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver +4 would rock! That's just 15 levels though :P
solbergb 02-05-08, 03:02 PM	I think you might be confusing being bored in combat with not contributing. The unfortunate thing about the way bards are structured is that it is almost always the right thing to buff the party, usually with inspire courage and haste (until all the physical weapon guys have boots of haste). Then you do mopup...slap some temp hitpoints and +2 to hit on the guy who is injured and about to full attack, drop a glitterdust on something hard to see, dim door somebody out of danger, etc. If the fights mostly last 2 rounds, you never get to the stuff where judgement matters. Mostly you're just reminding everybody to include the bonuses you provided. The problem is that pretty much nothing else you do will be as effective as buffing the party in the normal boring way (because that is VERY effective). So if you try to mix it up, and do something more direct, the party will suddenly be performing at lower than usual level, and you'll not only feel ineffective, the party will too. It's a very odd problem, fairly unique to bards. In reality, you are supercharging the party. Consider for a moment what your bonuses mean to a melee or archer. You are providing them the equivalent of 5 levels of advancement with inspire courage and haste - plus 5 to hit and an extra iterative attack. Better than 5 levels, as the extra attack is at TOP attack bonus, rather than BOTTOM. Not to mention that each attack has a damage bonus equivalent to greater weapon spec. Believe me, they would miss you if you weren't there. The impact is a bit less on spellcasters, although bards do get some options to boost them too (inspire spellpower in races of stone, various spell compendium spells that are bard-only that boost spellcaster level and DC's). The bardic spell options with the most impact tend to be debuffs like glitterdust, grease,silence (to interrupt spells) confusion and recovery/mobility spells like remove fear, freedom of movement, dimension door. Sometimes the illusions are useful too. But for most parties, these spells are gravy. The meat of what you provide is that boring old inspire courage and haste and these spells are the exception or cast after you've done the main buffing, not the normal thing you bring to the table (unlike a sorcerer, say) If you track how much damage is done because of your presence you might feel better. Count all the damage that would have missed without your +5 to hit or your extra haste attack. Count also on every hit the extra +4 damage. You will probably find that you're one of the top damage dealers for the party, possibly the most important one any time area damage spells are not used. Some people find this helps their perception of their contribution