Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arminel 01-23-08, 01:57 PM	Two part rant. First, my DM seems to have switched the stereotypical good and evil. Powerful evil characters will band together with other powerful evil characters to do an evil deed without backstabbing each other and will do anything it takes to get their way. Powerful good entities are too proud to put aside their differences and fight together because of inconsequential reasons. Against an army of undead, the Church of Heironeous and the Church of St. Cuthbert would not join the Church of Pelor because they worship different gods. What this means is that the 95% good-aligned party has to use evil methods and techniques to fight off these evil characters. ... Second, I created a legitimate character (Wizard/Incantrix focusing on Conjuration and battlefield control to help other characters) that is powerful. My DM believes it is too powerful and does three things to combat. One is assigning a very high SR (I failed on a 29, we're level 14) to about 65% of the monsters we fight. Two, when I started using my SR-less spells, he gave a number of the monsters spell immunity which even SR-less spells can't touch (unaffected by stuff like Solid Fog), despite the fact that the best spells I can throw against a lot of the high SR monsters are Orbs and Arc of Lightning. I didn't take Heighten Spell, else I'd be using it on Glitterdust and the like. (Oh, and while powerful, I decided to not take spells from the Polymorph subschool, Celerity, and a few of the other really really silly spells. The only spell that is arguably super cheesy is Assay Spell Resistance, which I took after he started implementing monsters that I had <30% chance of effecting.) The DM finds that he must give stupidly good items to the other characters (Rogue, Monk, and Paladin) whom I offered advice and optimal feats, spells, etc (which was ignored) so they wouldn't be so far behind. For example, for our TWF Rogue, he gives a pair of +1 Keen Deeper Impact Short Swords that give Displacement at will, 10 rounds of 3.0 haste per day, and +20 to Dexterity. To the monk, he gives a +5 Quarterstaff of Flame/Frost/Acid/Shock (all hit at the same time) that deals unarmed monk damage, gives a +10 unnamed bonus to base land speed, and 5/- DR. To the paladin, he gives a +1 Holy Whirling Keen Frost Burst Scythe (his favored weapon) in addition to +4 Field Plate Mail that has no maximum dex bonus and uses STR instead of DEX for determining AC. I got a cursed scepter that gives +6 INT (I have a +5 INT headband already) but forces me to make DC30 WILL SAVES to avoid gaining bloodlust. In addition to this, when I told the party I would just take a larger part of the nonmagical or unusable loot once it sold, they told me that wouldn't be fair since we all played an equal part.
Legdiwena 01-23-08, 02:07 PM	Just quit the campaign, the DM probably made the items also make them immune to your spells.
Dog_O_War 01-23-08, 02:16 PM	Make bombs. Take bags of holding and portable holes and use mage hand or TK on them. Show him that you don't need to use magic in the traditional sense. Use mass alchemical explosions (100 flasks of Alchemical fire/acid in a bag of holding, detonated be a single shatter spell once dumped out). Use an drift metal shute; conjuer a temporary ball of pure astral drift metal and wrap an opponent in a wall of force. Send said ball (which just so happens to fit the column-like wall perfectly) crashing down on your opponents with TK (somewhere in the realm of 40d6 I believe) that planeshifting cannot avoid (astral drift metal hits ethereal creatures). Use the earthen coffin trick. He clearly does not like you very much though, so maybe you should just leave the game, mid-session without killing any other characters (this move builds respect from the fellow players, who will make the DM feel bad). Tell him that if he won't play fair that you can take the hint and will move on. He's probably a crap DM anyways.
BoringInfoGuy 01-23-08, 02:21 PM	Just quit the campaign, the DM probably made the items also make them immune to your spells. Seconded. If you are not enjoying playing, then don't play. Doesn't matter if it's his fault, yours, or whoever. Unless you somehow get paid to play, there is no reason to keep playing if you are not having fun. Find another group, or something else to do instead. Life is sometimes shorter than we think, why waste any of it?
Avatar of Kokusho 01-23-08, 02:22 PM	Incantatrix, while really damned good, isn't so broken that the equipment given to the rest of your party remotely balances it out, even regarding Metamagic Effect/Conjuration spells. (Yes, this is silly. I mean, really silly.) Therefore, though this is not advice for everyone: use your class abilities to the fullest extent allowable. Take the silly spells. Utilize them. Did you know that Chain Spell works on Power Words? Use spells on the area, not the creatures. (I half expect this to result in your DM saying that the rocks now have SR.) Summoned monsters, while not that great, do not trigger SR either. Take Planar Binding and use the trick that will allow you to bind a relatively high-powered fiend to you using Geas/Quest and a few other things. In other words, if you want to stick it out, don't kill your party, just make yourself equal to the best of your ability.
Dunsel 01-23-08, 02:37 PM	Two part rant. First, my DM seems to have switched the stereotypical good and evil. Odd but he may have a reason. Based on the rest of your rant though, I doubt it. ... Second, I created a legitimate character (Wizard/Incantrix focusing on Conjuration and battlefield control to help other characters) that is powerful. How much does this DM HATE YOU?!!!? He seems to have issues with spell casters. A good sign he is either not too smart and/or he is inexperienced. I would choose one of the following: 1) Quit the campaign 2) Make your PC as powerful as you can and ruin his campaign. 3) Nova and kill off the entire party...if possible. 4) Create a new character with the DMs approval and permission. I would also get, in writing, that he will not try to nerf the new character. Personally, I would try #4 and see how it goes. If the DM just can't help himself, go with #1. The other players also sound inexperienced.
cptevil 01-23-08, 02:46 PM	if you try to pvp the DM will obviously get in the way you: i cast (spell) on player 2 player 2: huh, oh oh DM:your spell fails you: $%^@$
toucanbuzz 01-23-08, 02:57 PM	The campaign could make sense, but giving you the shaft does not. Playing favorites or making up rules to "thwart" a player isn't the province of the DM. Is he playing the game for his own perverted enjoyment or for the enjoyment of all involved? I suspect it's the former rather than the latter. So, as recommended, take the high road if things are not going to change. How do the other players feel? Is your DM the type who would recognize and learn from a mistake if all the players chatted with him?
Darth Doom 01-23-08, 03:23 PM	Life is sometimes shorter than we think, why waste any of it? I disagree my friend. Life is the longest thing anyone ever does! :D As for the OP, yes, it sounds like you've got a DM that hates spellcasters at the least, and loathes you at the most. This - as you have pointed out - has resulted in a ludicrously skewed gaming experience in which you are constantly screwed by a predictably vindictive game master whilst the other players have been bribed into indifference with shiny gubbins. Personally though, I do like what has been done with the typical 'Evil = treacherous, Good = always cooperative and unified', but thats beside the point. I think in this situation killing the players will only gain you more enemies than necessary, and it will solidify the DM's clutches around their minds (He can even use it as justification for having screwed you all this time). So, I would recommend either talking to the DM like a civilised human being, but if your DM is impervious to reason and new ideas, then I would just wait until something happens in game (Such as failing one of the stupid Will saves you are required to take, being asked to make a Spell Penetration roll to shoot a rock with a fireball ect ect) and then use that as the vehicle to leave, sprouting off your growing weariness of the game. This way, you will hopefully gain some sympathy from the other players, though given that they have routinely ignored your advice, I am not sure what the likely hood of this will be. Good luck.
Sinis 01-23-08, 03:34 PM	Walk. You'll never pull off any PvP, it'll just get Rule Zeroed out, Deus Ex Machina'ed, or otherwise ignored. And, it's just not worth the frustration. Just walk.
Salla 01-23-08, 04:18 PM	Another vote for hauling ass outta there.
Krusk 01-23-08, 04:40 PM	You are playing a strong class-wizard- and you seem to keep optimization in mind without going overboard. Your other players are playing weaker classes -rogue monk paladin- and are ignoring any attempts at optimization. Of course you are going to be way more powerful, and the DM does not know how to handle it. Unfortunatly your DM decided to handle it very poorly and nerf you to heck with the scepter, while handing out broken itms to everyone else. Solution is to either ask for a replay of the session in which they handed out the ridicilus items, with you playing a new character. -the half retarded blind truenamer- Or to just leave, because stuff like this will probably keep happening.
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 04:41 PM	The way I see it, you have two choices. The Red pill, and the Blue pill. You take the Red pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the Blue pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. AKA: Either quit the game, or make a new character. Or start a game yourself, and use balanced and fair rules. This DM sounds like the guy who thinks Clerics should be Healbots, Druids should be Tree Hugging Hippies that are also Healbots, and Wizards are blasters. He needs to be shown one of three things: Humility, Civility, or the Hammergun. If none of those fix him, nothing can, nothing will.
BoringInfoGuy 01-23-08, 04:42 PM	I disagree my friend. Life is the longest thing anyone ever does! :D But that does not mean you will have a long life. Trust me on this one. I really don't want to elaborate.
Legdiwena 01-23-08, 04:58 PM	Give the scepter to the church to be destroyed.
Cuindless 01-23-08, 06:21 PM	I second a lot of things other posters are saying, especially the walking part. If things get as bad as you're implying, you may just want to get out now. Personally, I'd talk to the other players first. It's very possible that they'll provide an insight into the DM's mind that you're missing. Talking to the other players will also let you know if they're on your side. If they think that the DM is being a jerk to your character as well, then that's leverage to make the DM change his ways (that is if he honors the player/DM contract). Another tactic I would recommend is to document. Bring a notebook to the game sessions and write down every single monster that has Spell Resistance or Spell Immunity, every cool item that everyone else gets, every crappy item that you get, et cetera. That way, when you decide to confront your DM or the other players again, you have documentation on your side. You can point to specific nerfs and blatant abuses of DM power. Lastly, I'd recommend that you check out Magic Immunity again, because it only effects spells which are susceptible to spell resistance. The spell spell immunity also has limitations. So is he throwing nothing but Iron Golems at you or something?
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 06:49 PM	So is he throwing nothing but Iron Golems at you or something? If he does, then I have great tactics against them!
Ebonarc 01-23-08, 07:08 PM	Another vote for a quickened teleport out of there. He can't nerf real life, right?:D I'd also like to second the motion that you start a campaign yourself, and that you show him and the other players the way it's done.
Enigmis 01-23-08, 07:23 PM	Two part rant. First, my DM seems to have switched the stereotypical good and evil. Powerful evil characters will band together with other powerful evil characters to do an evil deed without backstabbing each other and will do anything it takes to get their way. Powerful good entities are too proud to put aside their differences and fight together because of inconsequential reasons. Against an army of undead, the Church of Heironeous and the Church of St. Cuthbert would not join the Church of Pelor because they worship different gods. What this means is that the 95% good-aligned party has to use evil methods and techniques to fight off these evil characters. ... Second, I created a legitimate character (Wizard/Incantrix focusing on Conjuration and battlefield control to help other characters) that is powerful. My DM believes it is too powerful and does three things to combat. One is assigning a very high SR (I failed on a 29, we're level 14) to about 65% of the monsters we fight. Two, when I started using my SR-less spells, he gave a number of the monsters spell immunity which even SR-less spells can't touch (unaffected by stuff like Solid Fog), despite the fact that the best spells I can throw against a lot of the high SR monsters are Orbs and Arc of Lightning. I didn't take Heighten Spell, else I'd be using it on Glitterdust and the like. (Oh, and while powerful, I decided to not take spells from the Polymorph subschool, Celerity, and a few of the other really really silly spells. The only spell that is arguably super cheesy is Assay Spell Resistance, which I took after he started implementing monsters that I had <30% chance of effecting.) The DM finds that he must give stupidly good items to the other characters (Rogue, Monk, and Paladin) whom I offered advice and optimal feats, spells, etc (which was ignored) so they wouldn't be so far behind. For example, for our TWF Rogue, he gives a pair of +1 Keen Deeper Impact Short Swords that give Displacement at will, 10 rounds of 3.0 haste per day, and +20 to Dexterity. To the monk, he gives a +5 Quarterstaff of Flame/Frost/Acid/Shock (all hit at the same time) that deals unarmed monk damage, gives a +10 unnamed bonus to base land speed, and 5/- DR. To the paladin, he gives a +1 Holy Whirling Keen Frost Burst Scythe (his favored weapon) in addition to +4 Field Plate Mail that has no maximum dex bonus and uses STR instead of DEX for determining AC. I got a cursed scepter that gives +6 INT (I have a +5 INT headband already) but forces me to make DC30 WILL SAVES to avoid gaining bloodlust. In addition to this, when I told the party I would just take a larger part of the nonmagical or unusable loot once it sold, they told me that wouldn't be fair since we all played an equal part. ...if everything is as you say it is...something is wrong with your dm. It appears as though he's out to get you. He's giving the other members blatantly overpowered items that he's making himself. He's also cutting your legs out from under you by pretty much removing any effectiveness of your spells. I can see how it would be VERY tempting to pvp, but that is never the right choice. Leave the group.
Keevo_Darkwood 01-23-08, 08:24 PM	The way I see it, you have two choices. The Red pill, and the Blue pill. You take the Red Blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the Blue Red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Fixed. The rest of your post was spot-on, though. :thumbsup:
Arminel 01-23-08, 10:46 PM	I made a really long post and it said it posted, but... disappeared? In addition, the rogue got a Ring that allows her to "take 20" on a save 3 times per day. The "Cheater's Ring" as it would be called. And yes, taking 20 in this way is an auto-succeed. In any case, thank you for the encouragement everyone. Just typing this whole thing out was helpful, but even moreso have been your suggestions. Just so I don't seem like a hot-headed individual, I have tried reasoning on multiple occassions, including the "magical immunity" issue. His response, for example, was that because it replicates a DotA (Dawn of the Ancients, War3:FT mod) character's ability, it simply negates any spell cast upon the person whether it is affected by SR or not. Tell me, would I be justified in wanting to all but yell exasperated that we're playing Dungeons and %$&#ing Dragons, not some %$#&-y modification for a PC game? I did not, but was sorely tempted.
Sinfire Titan 01-23-08, 11:00 PM	Fixed. The rest of your post was spot-on, though. :thumbsup: I was quoting from memory, no reference to double check. It has been a year since I saw the Trilogy of Awesome, so my memory is rusty. Thanks though.
navar100 01-24-08, 12:47 AM	Your problem is with the DM. Don't take it out on the players. They will be mad at you if you kill their characters, assuming the DM even lets you. They will not be sympathetic when you explain why. Ask yourself: Do I enjoy going to this game? Is the effort it takes to get there worth it? Do I look forward to the next game session? Am I excited about what my character will be able to do? Do I like thinking about the game when not playing? When you find yourself saying "no" more often than "I'm not sure because", then you know it is time to quit. It's only a game. The DM is not your slavemaster.
SquibThePirate 01-24-08, 04:18 AM	If you do decided to wreck the campaign though, don't do it to the other characters......do it to important NPC's as they are about to reveal important information. NPC: The only way to defeat the evil wizard is to.... You: I cast lighning bolt on the old guy. DM: What?! You can't he was about to tell you how to def... You: EAT ELETRIC DEATH YOU OLD FART!!!!!
Killer_Rabbit 01-24-08, 06:19 AM	DotA (Dawn of the Ancients, War3:FT mod) Ahhhh.. I love that game :rolleyes: But I agree, Warcraft 3 and Dnd need to be kept seperate, least their combined awesomeness makes no sense, and everyone just gets confused.
aotrscommander 01-24-08, 07:25 AM	Two part rant. First, my DM seems to have switched the stereotypical good and evil. Powerful evil characters will band together with other powerful evil characters to do an evil deed without backstabbing each other and will do anything it takes to get their way. Powerful good entities are too proud to put aside their differences and fight together because of inconsequential reasons. Against an army of undead, the Church of Heironeous and the Church of St. Cuthbert would not join the Church of Pelor because they worship different gods. What this means is that the 95% good-aligned party has to use evil methods and techniques to fight off these evil characters. Good for him, at least in theory. There's absolutely no reason why this can't happen. (Though one should be careful to not take it to the 'screw the PCs' extreme, which ,from the sounds of the latter portion of the post, he's doing, rather than the bloodily butcher boring old cliches.) Second, I created a legitimate character (Wizard/Incantrix focusing on Conjuration and battlefield control to help other characters) that is powerful. *snip* In addition to this, when I told the party I would just take a larger part of the nonmagical or unusable loot once it sold, they told me that wouldn't be fair since we all played an equal part. Resist the urge to PvP. That is not going to help anyone. You need to talk to your DM nd the other players and/or leave the game. Well, actually, probably the better solution is shoot your DM with a Hammergun. (Or, even better in my never-humble opinion, use Maximised Disintigrate. Then turn to the other players and say "what do you know, guess he doesn't possess any spell immunity. Right, you, there, you're DMing, get started.")
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-24-08, 08:14 AM	Two part rant. First, my DM seems to have switched the stereotypical good and evil. ... Against an army of undead, the Church of Heironeous and the Church of St. Cuthbert would not join the Church of Pelor Well, that's a campaign flavour issue. Nothing wrong with that. etc, etc, etc, .../ for our TWF Rogue, he gives a pair of +1 Keen Deeper Impact Short Swords that give Displacement at will, 10 rounds of 3.0 haste per day, and +20 to Dexterity LOL! Stop right there. This is like playing chess with a child who insists that his bishops ought to be able to jump. You might be able to play, but you won't be playing chess. Quit, and go find a D&D game.
aikimiller 01-24-08, 09:15 AM	If the DM isn't playing a game you want to play in- don't. Find another game, or find some players and run a game how you think it ought to be run. I was in a position similiar to your- I like to optimize my characters, and the game I was in wasn't all that serious. I decided to DM my own game instead and am a much happier person for it- there's a lot more challenge to creating optimized monsters- because you have to do it so that they challenge the party in interesting ways they didn't see coming without wiping them out. But yeah, just tell the DM that you've more or less lost interest, or that you'd like to try DMing your own game.
nowiwantmydmg 01-24-08, 12:30 PM	It sounds like you're playing with people(teens?) who would rather be playing WOW or Diablo than D&D. All in all they sound pretty lousy, as a player I would complain if the DM gave me something that was +20 dex w/ etc, that's F-ing ludicrous. Anyway if you want to really do some damage -with core spells so there can be no "munchkin" moaning: My preferred option of choice is the Wall of Force all around = suffocation for all, roll your saving throw vs. no air *******! or similiar but use a Wall of stone cast horizontally to fall inside the "force cage"= mad D6 crushing damage Any prismatic spell is awesome. Earthquake is very good Summoning spells/animating dead are also good : No saves or resistance vs monster beatings. In a similiar vein since this campaign seems to be totally monte haul: level 14 is just enough to create a stone golem(even a greater one if memory serves). Good Luck whatever you choose.
Legdiwena 01-24-08, 02:55 PM	Warcraft and DnD don't mix, he needs to go get D20 Warcraft or remember he is running DnD.
MadWand 01-24-08, 03:51 PM	An item that gives +20 dex is worth 4 million gp I believe, according to epic rules. Dominate the PC or steal the item, and sell it. Spread the wealth around and retire your character in style, or just break the game.
I_roll_ones 01-24-08, 04:01 PM	I think that this problem would be solved if players just ran their builds past the DM. Consider doing so, at the very least, you'll weed out people like this. I think this guy got the idea that casters are overpowered (Maybe the CharOp boards?) and decided to fix them...Badly. I'm not sure how you are supposed to play your character. True, I don't know what incantrix is, but I assume that 90% of people don't wanna sit back and buff others. And I'm not sure what you are supposed to do, other then summon stuff, really. And I could see how a player demanding more loot won't get it, while one that asks for it because he has less loot is more reasonable. Of course, I think they like you being uber nerfed so they can be teh awesome. I mean, that rogue has +20 AC, what the heck else does he need? This amount of caster hate seems unreasonable, and if the DM wanted you to play a less powerful build, it appears that there was a breakdown in communication here, and he didn't really seem to ask you, just decided to nerf you to heck. So, I'd just hand my character sheet to the DM and tell him to run it as a cohort, since that is apparently what he planned the character to be, as they cannot cast at enemies and is only good to help others not be in combat themselves.
Novabomb 01-24-08, 04:23 PM	Dude, you have three choices, 1 that is stupid, one that is noble, one neutral. You may just deal with it. You may walk (I would advocate this). You may try to teach your DM about balance (This is difficult, and does not appear that will work) One more thing, DotA is not dawn o the ancients, it is Defence of the Ancients. http://www.dota-allstars.com/
Sinfire Titan 01-24-08, 06:22 PM	Dude, you have three choices, 1 that is stupid, one that is noble, one neutral. You may just deal with it. You may walk (I would advocate this). You may try to teach your DM about balance (This is difficult, and does not appear that will work) One more thing, DotA is not dawn o the ancients, it is Defence of the Ancients. http://www.dota-allstars.com/ I all ready gave him the choices, dammit!
Arminel 01-24-08, 08:10 PM	Well, with the start of school again, we haven't had a chance to play yet. However, I have had time to cool down and assess my options. I figure I'll start getting cheesy with spell choices and such. If the DM doesn't restrict Gate, I'll pull a few Solars in do "favors" for me.
Legdiwena 01-24-08, 08:12 PM	He'll probably just say the solars don't agree to your task. He might then have them attack you.
Avatar of Kokusho 01-25-08, 10:28 AM	What level incantatrix are you again? If I knew that I can give you some not-so-game-breaking pointers that nevertheless can be of GREAT assistance to you, infinite spell immunity or not. I :inlove: incantatrix....
Arminel 01-25-08, 12:57 PM	Wizard5/Incantrix9 at this point.
Leo 01-25-08, 01:54 PM	Someone on the CO boards once claimed the best way of powergaming is playing what the Dm wanted to play. I once had a DM who just hated rogues, and I was playing a rogue. Sneack attacks only with daggers. Anything smaller than a 3 meter brick wall wouldn't be able to hide me. If I tried to perform into the streets I would get hunted by the local artist guild. If I tried to steal I would discover the city is filled with elite bandits who don't like competition and everybody has +3000 at sense motive modifiers. Dex(my biggest stat) couldn't be added to my relevant skill checks. I couldn't flank anything bigger than me. Almost all of the rogue special abilities were nerfed. Meanwhile the druid was geting ALL the powers of the creatures he transformed into, the cleric didn't needed free hands to cast spells and the fighter/barbarian was moving and attacking with 2 weapons at the same time. Also they all managed to get feats to their classes from splatbooks while I had to work with core only. Oh, and the sorceror was allowed to cast as many quickened spells per turn as respective slots he could spend. He argued that I had UMD as class skill, wich allowed me to get both divine and arcana magic and that made me the pwrzst, and thus all my other abilities should be nerfed. So I ended up dying and refused to be raised. The DM let me make a new character, I picked a wizard and everything went well. The DM tried to discourage me by saying he wouldn't give me the wealth of the level, but I didn't care. From then on, despite the loss of equipment, everything went a lot more smoothly. DM basically loved casters and brute force characters, so he never bothered with me polymorphing into monstruosities and killing armies with spells in a single turn. So, either you leave the campaign, or ask to make a new character. Don't try to overpower the DM. He already showed that he isn't afraid to rule zero anything you do. He clearly hates casters and loves everybody else. So just play a noncaster and have fun.
Gruumeh 01-25-08, 03:56 PM	All the advice so far is fairly valid. I suggest swinging this in a different way. Role-play your way out. Stay away from the Meta-issues of "balance" and cheesiness. At a key moment in battle, have your character delay, essentially freeze with panic as all his spells seem to never get through when it counts. Start trying to chart totally inconsequential things and how they may affect your casting. Get all Howard Hughes and start refusing meals if you don't have an even number of peas next to your steak. Basically play like someone who is totally unsure of the viability of reality, since basically, your DM has chosen to arbitrarily break reality just to spite you. Don't take it personally as a player (even though you would be justified) but make your character act as though the very fabric of space time was out to destroy him. Once you've got this sort of thing laid down and established, start making bad choices, fail to act as he expects. Eventually you can even start to Covet your group's obviously super powered weapons. Ask to examine every aspect of their better than artifact items, in hopes that you can solve the very mysteries of magic. Basically, Go crazy. RANT Basically by Artificially augmenting the rules and nerfing your character because it's "unbalancing" the encounters your DM is essentially changing the DnD laws of reality. Your character was created with this laws, and as such should continue to expect that just as a dagger does minor wounds (1d4) so not every monster has immunity to Spells (which they really, really don't). This allows you all the rationale you need to have your character go crazy. END RANT Keep in mind your DM seems to have a very specific way he wants things to go, whether he knows it or not. If he punishes you for playing outside the Blaster Wizard Box, he'll likely try to screw you in any other way if you go outside the box. All things considered, you should just find some Monty Hall way of Munchkinning your way into the spot light where you can go out and kill yourself in a glorious ball of fire. If you die, either play something "In the Box" or skip out on the game entirely.
Nephlite 01-25-08, 05:02 PM	Someone on the CO boards once claimed the best way of powergaming is playing what the Dm wanted to play. I once had a DM who just hated rogues, and I was playing a rogue. Sneack attacks only with daggers. Anything smaller than a 3 meter brick wall wouldn't be able to hide me. If I tried to perform into the streets I would get hunted by the local artist guild. If I tried to steal I would discover the city is filled with elite bandits who don't like competition and everybody has +3000 at sense motive modifiers. Dex(my biggest stat) couldn't be added to my relevant skill checks. I couldn't flank anything bigger than me. Almost all of the rogue special abilities were nerfed. Meanwhile the druid was geting ALL the powers of the creatures he transformed into, the cleric didn't needed free hands to cast spells and the fighter/barbarian was moving and attacking with 2 weapons at the same time. Also they all managed to get feats to their classes from splatbooks while I had to work with core only. Oh, and the sorceror was allowed to cast as many quickened spells per turn as respective slots he could spend. He argued that I had UMD as class skill, wich allowed me to get both divine and arcana magic and that made me the pwrzst, and thus all my other abilities should be nerfed. So I ended up dying and refused to be raised. The DM let me make a new character, I picked a wizard and everything went well. The DM tried to discourage me by saying he wouldn't give me the wealth of the level, but I didn't care. From then on, despite the loss of equipment, everything went a lot more smoothly. DM basically loved casters and brute force characters, so he never bothered with me polymorphing into monstruosities and killing armies with spells in a single turn. So, either you leave the campaign, or ask to make a new character. Don't try to overpower the DM. He already showed that he isn't afraid to rule zero anything you do. He clearly hates casters and loves everybody else. So just play a noncaster and have fun. Another thought, playingh a caster/warrior (gish). Use spells for buffing only since they lack the ability to do stuff to enemies. There are great buffs out there. Use Grease, Glitterdust, Sleet Storm: any non-sr, non-blockable spell.
Arminel 01-25-08, 05:27 PM	Another thought, playingh a caster/warrior (gish). Use spells for buffing only since they lack the ability to do stuff to enemies. There are great buffs out there. Use Grease, Glitterdust, Sleet Storm: any non-sr, non-blockable spell. Won't work for a very specific reason that I hadn't mentioned. I know this seems to get better and better, but I've left out information as it hasn't been previously pertinent. Basically, he allowed our Paladin, Monk, and Rogue to take high LA classes and buff them. Imagine a Stone Giant. Take away all the racial hit dice and feats, so LA +4. Give him a base attack (medium), save (strong fort, weak other), and skill (uses Paladin skill list) and d8 hit die for each LA, in addition to things like the +16 Str, 11 natural armor. Do the same with a Satyr who gets her pipes, and a natural Lycan. If you have a headache by now, you know where I've been.
Leo 01-25-08, 06:19 PM	Won't work for a very specific reason that I hadn't mentioned. I know this seems to get better and better, but I've left out information as it hasn't been previously pertinent. Basically, he allowed our Paladin, Monk, and Rogue to take high LA classes and buff them. Imagine a Stone Giant. Take away all the racial hit dice and feats, so LA +4. Give him a base attack (medium), save (strong fort, weak other), and skill (uses Paladin skill list) and d8 hit die for each LA, in addition to things like the +16 Str, 11 natural armor. Do the same with a Satyr who gets her pipes, and a natural Lycan. If you have a headache by now, you know where I've been. I really didn't understood what your DM did there, but this just shows he isn't afraid of changing rules in a whim, so you really can't use reason on him. Let your caster die or retire him. Start a new character. This one isn't going anywhere. You may just as well be playing a commoner with all the stuff the DM is doing.
Legdiwena 01-25-08, 06:41 PM	At least he could use DM's rule against him and say he is immune to all SLA of monsters.
Eldritch_Lord 01-25-08, 09:21 PM	Definitely document everything; if you want to salvage anything and game with the same group again at a later point after this DM leaves, you're going to want proof of some sort. The Crazy Wizard approach is the way to go if you absolutely must stay in (read: if there are no other D&D groups within 20 miles that share a common language with you), but were I in your position I would plane shift outta there (without a PvP TPK) so fast I'd arrive back home 2 months before.
Platinum_Dragoon 01-25-08, 09:54 PM	for wizard hating dms: sell/discard crazypants scepter cast Rope Trick convince party to use Rope Trick as a resting place when they all get in, don't follow, toss in a bag of holding so they get sucked into the astral plane with no caster to get them out then commit seppuku with a Mordenkainen's Sword or just tell the dm what a fop he's being and get him to explain why he thinks what he's doing is fair (or, for that matter, sane) how old is your dm anyway? if he's older than 12 I'd suggest counseling because he seems to have serious control issues.
Wellspring 01-25-08, 10:51 PM	The RP stuff can make sense in the right campaign. It happens all the time in history. Your real problem is that your DM is house-ruling you out of existence. Nothing your character does will help with that, because it's the PLAYER, not the character, that is the problem. The answer is to quit the game and play with different people. No point in holding a grudge, but continuing to play with them will only make you guys less likely to stay friends afterwards. Odds are the DM is creating house rules against you because he can't work up the guts to just ask you to leave the game. Playing with a totally new D&D group can be liberating. Your old friends can play the kind of game they want, you get to play the kind of game you want, and you can stay friends with them outside of gaming.
Krusk 01-26-08, 01:46 AM	I can almost gaurentee that anything you do to disrupt his game will be houseruled to not work. So your best bet is to simply not try and just leave.
Zeffienes 01-26-08, 02:41 AM	I can't remember the specifics, but a non-SR method of dealing damage involves shrinking large masses of rock and casting telekinesis. Was the rule 1d6 per 10 lbs.? Because I remember at lv 20 the average damage for doing so was in the millions. Of course, there's always the door, but usually this doesn't work. Try reasoning by example: For instance, if the DM wanted to sick the BBEG on the party, the BBEG would simply get wiped out as the Rogue would simply have to sneak (with a check too high for NPCs to notice) and then stab the BBEG once, using that auto-20. Auto hits, and to roll confirm crit, we auto-20 that too. If there's the stupid vorpal houserule, auto-20 that too, and you've just ended the campaign with only 1 character. Also remind the DM that a non-canon ability in a non-DnD game does not suffice as a proper explanation for giving the rest of the world SR and Spell Immunity. Are you friends with the entire group?
Arminel 01-26-08, 05:57 AM	Are you friends with the entire group? Yeah, I think I posted it before. The characters are two of my best guy friends from high school, my long-term (three years) girlfriend, her best friend, and the DM.
Serrin 01-26-08, 08:39 AM	If I were you, I'd forget about the quickened plane shift. Instead, go with a greater consumptive field, a bag of rats, and dictum. D&D is a game. Games are made out of rules. Rules are lawful. Making crap on the fly to mess with players is not lawful. In brief, anyone who should be allowed to play D&D will be unaffected, while your DM will be killed, blinded, deafened, and dazed. Or something along those lines.
Rebel581 01-26-08, 08:41 AM	Yeah, I think I posted it before. The characters are two of my best guy friends from high school, my long-term (three years) girlfriend, her best friend, and the DM. Is the DM your friend? Who is friends with the DM? Do these other players agree it's not fair? If they do, have them walk with you and make your own game. If the DM is a friend, then talk with him about it. Ask if all of you can just restart over (because I would not play in any game where a +20 dex and more item was just handed out as a commodity) and play DnD. If he's a friend and doesn't listen to you and forces you to the "walk" solution, then he's not really a good friend, is he? Just don't go PvP especially with friends. It's better to just not play DnD than lose good friends over a stupid game.
heavenisme 01-26-08, 09:23 AM	Challenge a character and take his stuff. Sell it and buy some good standard items.
Otto the Bugbear 01-26-08, 09:51 AM	Someone on the CO boards once claimed the best way of powergaming is playing what the Dm wanted to play. It wasn't on the C.O. board. That quote, by Tony Vargas, can be found in my sig, and was gleaned from the D&D General board. For those posters with Signature's blocked, here is the exact quote... "In fact, the highest, subtlest, most effective form of powergaming of all is to play the character your DM wishes he were playing." -- Tony Vargas Oh, and to the OP... Just walk.
Eldritch_Lord 01-26-08, 11:09 AM	If I were you, I'd forget about the quickened plane shift. Instead, go with a greater consumptive field, a bag of rats, and dictum. D&D is a game. Games are made out of rules. Rules are lawful. Making crap on the fly to mess with players is not lawful. In brief, anyone who should be allowed to play D&D will be unaffected, while your DM will be killed, blinded, deafened, and dazed. Or something along those lines. I'll have to remember this one. :thumbsup:
CrimsonDeath 01-26-08, 12:04 PM	Yeah, I think I posted it before. The characters are two of my best guy friends from high school, my long-term (three years) girlfriend, her best friend, and the DM. Have you tried talking to them? Perhaps they're having fun, but they would probably like you to have fun as well. If your DM won't listen, you might tell the other players that it's not much fun playing in a game where all your character's abilities have been house-ruled to near uselessness, but the other characters' abilities have been boosted beyond normal. Make it clear to them that you've talked with the DM and that you're talking to the other players, and that if the situation continues you'll probably leave the game entirely (if that's your intention). The DM may be more open to change (or, rather, a return to normal) if the entire party confronts him instead of just one player.
danielinthewolvesden 01-27-08, 12:35 AM	OK, you have four choices: 1. Sit down with everyone, esp the DM, and discuss this like adults. 2. Invite the DM here so he can give his side and we can give him advice. He might well listen better to the advice of others. 3. Leave. 4. Shup up and take it. I strongly suggest 1 or 2. Choice 5: "being a :censored: and trying to ruin the game for everyone" is not a choice. If you really think it's a choice, the problem person here is not the DM, it's YOU.
Leo 01-27-08, 07:23 AM	It wasn't on the C.O. board. That quote, by Tony Vargas, can be found in my sig, and was gleaned from the D&D General board. For those posters with Signature's blocked, here is the exact quote... "In fact, the highest, subtlest, most effective form of powergaming of all is to play the character your DM wishes he were playing." -- Tony Vargas Oh, and to the OP... Just walk. Ha, so it was in your signature that I found it! In my defense, I claim that you spend lots of time in the C.O. boards.
Otto the Bugbear 01-27-08, 08:12 AM	Ha, so it was in your signature that I found it! In my defense, I claim that you spend lots of time in the C.O. boards. I used to spend a lot of time there. Not as much now. Mostly, I just lurk around the 4ed boards now, occasionally posting a bit.
danielinthewolvesden 02-18-08, 02:14 PM	OK, you have four choices: 1. Sit down with everyone, esp the DM, and discuss this like adults. 2. Invite the DM here so he can give his side and we can give him advice. He might well listen better to the advice of others. 3. Leave. 4. Shup up and take it. I strongly suggest 1 or 2. Choice 5: "being a :censored: and trying to ruin the game for everyone" is not a choice. If you really think it's a choice, the problem person here is not the DM, it's YOU. So, what happened?:confused:
Josheva 02-18-08, 08:42 PM	His response, for example, was that because it replicates a DotA (Dawn of the Ancients, War3:FT mod) character's ability, it simply negates any spell cast upon the person whether it is affected by SR or not. First off, it is Defence of the Ancients, not Dawn of the Ancients. Second, tell him that if you are playing Dota and dragons you want the following changes made: 1) The spell magic missile now causes 325 damage and stuns whoever it hits for a short time. 2) Except for spells that require channeling, you want to be able to fire off an average of one spell every second. This makes 6 spells per round. 3) When you die you are revived after a short period. Once you have finished making him look like an idiot, leave the game.
Xavon 02-18-08, 09:43 PM	Wait, these people are your friends? If I saw a DM I was playing with treating one of my freinds like this, I'd protest outside the game, and start giving the afflicted character my uber-items (or selling them and splitting the profit). I would guess leaving isn't an option since you GF is one of the players. PvP is not an option, unless you want to lose friends. I would advocate having your character go out in a blaze of glory, and then make a fighter.
Drackthor 02-18-08, 11:53 PM	If none of those fix him, nothing can, nothing will. Sinfire, you of all people should know there might be ONE other thing that could fix him. It rhymes with 'Martan Maser' ;)
cjhobbitbane 02-19-08, 08:46 AM	Kill them all imo. In real life. There, problem solved. in all seriousness tho, i like the rope trick idea from a few posts before. Or just leave.
Drackthor 02-20-08, 04:28 AM	Kill them all imo. In real life. There, problem solved. This is where the post should've ended. TBH.
CrimsonDeath 02-20-08, 12:11 PM	This is where the post should've ended. TBH. If he wanted to commit a felony...
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 12:15 PM	Multiple felonies.
Suspect_Unusual 02-20-08, 01:36 PM	It wasn't on the C.O. board. That quote, by Tony Vargas, can be found in my sig, and was gleaned from the D&D General board. For those posters with Signature's blocked, here is the exact quote... "In fact, the highest, subtlest, most effective form of powergaming of all is to play the character your DM wishes he were playing." -- Tony Vargas Oh, and to the OP... Just walk. (Warning: Totally off-topic from the OP. Luckily, there's 2+ pages of excellent advice before me, so adding my voice to them isn't necessary.) So incredibly true. In one of the games I played in, the DM loved elves. I mean loved them. That's all he played, it's all he enjoyed, etc. I didn't know this at the time, and instead had been recently intrigued by a cleric archer build, deciding to go a somewhat optimized (but not completely optimized) elf cleric archer. Suffice to say that, at the time we stopped playing his campaign, I was 8th level where everyone else was 3, 4, 4, and 5, and had gotten an artifact bow that functioned kind of like the Bow of the Wintermoon (or whatever that Corellen relic longbow is called).
themocaw 02-20-08, 01:56 PM	Leave the game sounds like a good idea. This guy is the reason why some people say DM is a synonym for Dumbass Megalomaniac. Here's what you gotta do, though: when you leave, make sure the players like you. Don't PK them, make sure that you leave on a note that makes your DM look like the frothing freak he is. In short, stop playing D&D, and start playing a new game: Slay the DM. Here is a suggestion: tell him that you think he's right, and that your character is way too powerful, and that you want to create a new character. This is your character: Jh'erry the Freak. Jh'erry the Freak's will be a CN 14th level halfling. Here are his stats: STR 8 (6) DEX 6 (8) CON 18 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 3 Give him three levels in Rogue and Ranger, four levels in Barbarian and Fighter. If you're really brave, go all out: two levels each in rogue, ranger, barbarian, fighter, wizard, sorcerer, cleric, bard: and yes, I know that three of those spellcaster classes can't cast any spells because of Jerry's stats. Load him up with all the most useless equipment and abilities you can think of. Spend all his starting gold on rocks. Give him all the improved grapple feats, even though his small size and low STR makes that useless. Put all his skills into things like Profession: Carnival Freak and Intimidate. Make sure his spells are useless too: who needs magic missile when you can take Sleep? It doesn't work on 4+ HD creatures? Oh, well, too bad. From this point forward, your character's role is not to do something useful, it is to be comic relief. You are no longer obligated to contribute anything to the group, but you must do so in a way that makes the other players laugh and makes the DM look foolish. For instance, when it comes time to fight the big troll, have Jerry throw rocks at him, then beat his ankles using dual-wielded daggers. Make grapple checks, and be sure to roll everything the dice say you have to roll. Ask the DM for rulings on damages for biting a troll's ankles. If and when Jerry dies, create Retsilj the Half-Orc bard, then Morty the Gnomish Monk, and so on and so forth. There are only a few months left before 4th edition. Have fun with every stupid build you can think of. In short: realize that the dungeon master stopped playing D&D when he started breaking rules left and right to screw with you, and if he doesn't want to play the game, you should play a new game called, "Troll the DM." Or you could do the mature thing, and just leave and find a new group, but that's no fun.
Drackthor 02-20-08, 05:55 PM	If he wanted to commit a felony... Crimson, I'll be frank. If your average D&D session doesn't contain at least 3 felonies, you're not playing D&D to it's full potential.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 06:02 PM	Crimson, I'll be frank. If your average D&D session doesn't contain at least 3 felonies, you're not playing D&D to it's full potential. Felonies for players or their characters?
Drackthor 02-20-08, 06:08 PM	Felonies for players or their characters? Your discretion. Also, I was kidding Cjh. As in, I and/or my group don't actually commit felonies during the game. But, uh, great for you? >_>
Drackthor 02-20-08, 06:15 PM	(stick to being sober kids, its the least harmful) Fixed. Also, come on man, kids read these forums.
cjhobbitbane 02-20-08, 06:24 PM	k, attempt at humor failed, ill remember that in the future. To anyone reading that last post was a JOKE, im an athlete, i dont get stoned. my bad, sarcasm failed.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 06:27 PM	No biggie, just remember the sarcasm tag, heheh. That and smilies.
cjhobbitbane 02-20-08, 06:57 PM	I never remember smilies, because i always just do =P or =) or =( on the other hand....murder is truly only a felony if you get caught....
rulerofDarkness 02-20-08, 06:58 PM	I had problem like this once...the solution is simple... *********** DM: The Koblod hits you with its spear again. you black out. Me: But I cast my most poweful spell on it! DM: He...errr...had...a...err Anti-everything cloak on! Me: #$%@ This. *Walks Out* -Later That Night- *A doorbell rings* DM: Ack, what is it- Me: *Nails DM in the face with a shovel* DM: What #$%& @%^&#* @%^$#&$#!!! Me: *Drags DM to the road.* DM: What the #@%& are you doing you @!%&^@!!?! Me: *Buts brick on random cars gas pedel* DM: *Gets run over by said car* Me: *Picks up the DM's body and dumps it in nearby lake* ************* What? Seriously: Talk to your DM. If things don't get better. Quit or TPK.
Drackthor 02-20-08, 06:59 PM	Ha, sorry bout that man, I shoulda read between the lines, I'm somewhat imfamous for my inability to find emotion in text.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 07:01 PM	I never remember smilies, because i always just do =P or =) or =( on the other hand....murder is truly only a felony if you get caught.... You been watching Aladdin again? :angelhide
cjhobbitbane 02-20-08, 07:03 PM	You been watching Aladdin again? :angelhide nah, thats my philosophy when it comes to speeding on mah bike, its only a crime if they can catch me. err if i get caught.... (modified ninja zx-6r, top speed round 190ish)
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 07:11 PM	I was going 117 and cops in the next lane were waving at me.
Arminel 02-20-08, 07:16 PM	Well, the DM had an epiphany after I dropped a brick on his head. That and I obliterated his Sheik in SSBM. And talked to him. Items got balanced out and he changed a lot of things. The only problem currently is the unrealistic nature of characters. Using teleport and some high-stakes diplomacy, my character single-handedly stopped a face-off between an platoon of one of the largest cities in the world and one of the largest groves of Druids, and then the leader of the Druids wouldn't give me information about an artifact to me alone. A person from our group (a Druid of the grove) would have had to be there. After I teleported away to one of the grandest libraries of the world to study, the leader of the grove scryed on my party and teleported to them to give them in the information. ... The degree to which this game has embraced factionalization is stupid. If he wasn't an epic level Druid, I probably would have toasted him for it. I single-handedly prevented a war for you *****! ^Purposely-censored.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 07:18 PM	What is SSBM? Why you trying to exclude party from the information?
Arminel 02-20-08, 07:49 PM	Super Smash Bros. Melee, a game he particularly takes pride in his skill at, in which Sheik is considered one of the "hands-down" cheapest character. And I wasn't trying to exclude the party from the information. My character has been the most honest and forthcoming in all regards in our party as well. For purposes of time constraints (out of game and in game) and ease, I teleported without anyone else simply because if I had an off-arrival, whoever had come with me would've been ****** if that had happened. It has happened before when I rolled a 96 or something with a scroll of Teleport (we were 8th level) and we couldn't figure out where we were. Also, I had no Greater Teleport prepared, and we had been searching for this artifact for almost a week with no success or clues found. I had a few Teleport spells prepared, but didn't want to deal with other players if I had a mishap. Plus, I prevented a war! Doesn't that entitle me to some sort of leniency?
cjhobbitbane 02-20-08, 07:58 PM	Super Smash Bros. Melee, a game he particularly takes pride in his skill at, in which Sheik is considered one of the "hands-down" cheapest character. And I wasn't trying to exclude the party from the information. My character has been the most honest and forthcoming in all regards in our party as well. For purposes of time constraints (out of game and in game) and ease, I teleported without anyone else simply because if I had an off-arrival, whoever had come with me would've been ****** if that had happened. It has happened before when I rolled a 96 or something with a scroll of Teleport (we were 8th level) and we couldn't figure out where we were. Also, I had no Greater Teleport prepared, and we had been searching for this artifact for almost a week with no success or clues found. I had a few Teleport spells prepared, but didn't want to deal with other players if I had a mishap. Plus, I prevented a war! Doesn't that entitle me to some sort of leniency? i am very confused about this whole situation.
neceros 02-21-08, 12:14 PM	Your DM sounds 13. He's either trying to tell his story and not trying to be a DM, or he's just playing god with his ultimate power. Unjust and biased DMs need to be dethroned permanently. It's one of my biggest pet peeves that stems from Humanities focus on corruption and immoral dilemmas. Disgusting. Perhaps he wanted that war to happen?
Clem-Da-Squig 02-21-08, 08:42 PM	When ever you're DM starts acting like an Ass Hat challenge him to a game of SSBM with only the Hammer and Ray Gun items selected.:)
cjhobbitbane 02-22-08, 12:36 AM	When ever you're DM starts acting like an Ass Hat challenge him to a game of SSBM with only the Hammer and Ray Gun items selected.:) Whenever i start acting like an ass my players just tell me...but i guess that works too?
CrimsonDeath 02-22-08, 04:39 PM	When ever you're DM starts acting like an Ass Hat challenge him to a game of SSBM with only the Hammer and Ray Gun items selected.:) What's wrong with the ray gun? The star is much worse.
Ebonarc 02-22-08, 10:51 PM	What's wrong with the ray gun? The star is much worse. The ray gun can be used to push characters off platforms (and the screen) by hitting them with it repeatedly. Before they're able to land, they get hit again, and are often unable to do much about it. Back on topic: Where's the OP?
Cuindless 02-22-08, 10:54 PM	Back on topic: Where's the OP? Missing. Presumed apathetic.
Ebonarc 02-22-08, 11:01 PM	Missing. Presumed apathetic. Probably. Seems to be a common symptom amond OPs once a thread gets to be long enough. Oh, and :rofl:
Clem-Da-Squig 02-22-08, 11:41 PM	The ray gun can be used to push characters off platforms (and the screen) by hitting them with it repeatedly. Before they're able to land, they get hit again, and are often unable to do much about it. Back on topic: Where's the OP? Just press the R button while in the air to dodge.
cjhobbitbane 02-23-08, 12:34 AM	Just press the R button while in the air to dodge. How does that help find the OP?
CrimsonDeath 02-23-08, 01:47 AM	Just press the R button while in the air to dodge. If you're already off the edge of the stage at that point, you'll just fall off the bottom (because that uses up your double-jump and renders you unable to attack).
Drackthor 02-23-08, 06:46 AM	I play Fox, so Ray gun isn't a big enough problem to knock me off the platform. But man, there's a real sense of satisfaction when you shield-reflect a fully-charged Samus blast attack when he's 2 feet away. I don't think I'd play Fox if I couldn't do that. It's part just the satisfaction, but mainly the look of awe, stun, and horror on my friends faces.
WizO_Kayn 02-23-08, 09:01 AM	Before you post, remind yourself of the topic please. In other words, dont post it if it isnt on topic. : ) Thanks WizO Kayn