Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr.Musgrave 04-29-04, 12:58 AM	So I've just started playing a new character. He's a dwarf cleric of moradin who's focused on crafting. There's more to his story so he's not as cookie-cutter as it seems but that's not the point. See, I'm currently the only Player's Handbook race. I'm in a party with a were-bear, a hound archon and a half-celestial. Ignore the goofiness of that too, it's also not the point. The point is that I'm extremely underpowered and I keep getting my head kicked off because I can't keep up in battle. EVERYTHING whups on me. I've even got some seriously stupid numbers rolled up. With character and level adjustments it comes to 18 12 18 16 18 and 10. I did roll those and it was in front of the DM so it was legit but even THAT bugs me. I hate having to take these absurdly high numbers but then even with them I can't keep up! ARGH! I don't know what to do. I'd like to rework his nubmers (as in lower them to more realistic numbers) but then I'll really be dead and I'm not keen on giving my guy up. I don't know what I expect you guys to tell me. I might just be complaining to blow off steam but any suggestions would help.
Vanigo 04-29-04, 01:08 AM	Is your DM enforcing level adjustments? Werebears and celestials and the like are obviously more powerful than plain old dwarves, so they're supposed to be lower level to compensate. IIRC, the half-celestial should be three or four levels lower than you, the werebear should be 11 levels lower than you, and the hound archon should be 12 levels lower than you. I suspect this isn't the case?
Aborath 04-29-04, 02:19 AM	Is your DM enforcing level adjustments? Werebears and celestials and the like are obviously more powerful than plain old dwarves, so they're supposed to be lower level to compensate. IIRC, the half-celestial should be three or four levels lower than you, the werebear should be 11 levels lower than you, and the hound archon should be 12 levels lower than you. I suspect this isn't the case? Unless the rest of his party are using the racial level advancement rules from SS; even then, an equally leveled cleric should be superior with more HD, as good or better BAB, decent saves, and full spell progression. Clerics can be tricky to play: you may want to take a look at the Character Optimization boards for some ideas on getting the most of your cleric in combat situations.
Stafir Ortnev 04-29-04, 02:42 AM	Why do you want to re-do your rolls? why do you want them lower? Is it not befitting of your char? Is your char supposed to be weaker? You rolled em up fair and square..its not cheating. You did it infront of the GM. You got good roles. So why not use em? This at least partially explains why he is with all these high powered other critters..he's an exceptional dwarf. As for underpowered...what are they levels above you? If all of you are equal level....with them having minus the amount of level needed for their race (you do know what level adjustment is right?). Or if your all low level...they are at least slowly gaining their powers (sorta taking their race as a class...instead of having an actual one). It should be pretty even. Otherwise..yeah it'll be pretty broken if they have full race powers..and the same 'class' level as you. Yaknow?
Naeron 04-29-04, 06:11 AM	I would guess that the situation is much as the other posters suggest. Your DM is ignoring or improperly applying the ECL rules. Lets say that you are playing an 8th Level Dwarven Cleric. A 1st level Hound Archon Fighter (6 Racial HI, +5 Level Adjustment) is a 12th Level Character. If the DM has a system where the PC starts as a 1HD Hound Archon then to be balanced with an 8th level Dwarf the would be about a 3HD Hound Archon. A Half-Celestial has a Level Adjustment of +4. So if this PC has a PC race such as Human then they should be four levels lower than you as the rules are written. A Half-Celestial Human Ranger 4 would be an 8th level Character.
SIippery Mind 04-29-04, 10:53 AM	You are not the weak link. A cleric of any party should not be the weak link. The weak link here is the DM (IMO.) By not enforcing level adjustemnts, you are being left behind. I no longer play in a certain campaign where the DM will not allow a character to start out any higher than 1st level. The problem is, the parity of the characters is rapidly expanding where we had a 9th level cleric (who also gets solo time with the DM) and then we had many 1st level characters. Fine and good, I say. However, the adventures are geared for a higher challenge. So who gets killed 1st? Take a wild guess. Much frustration abounds. One player even commented "why would a higher level character bring a lower level character along? They just get in the way and don't contribute as much as a higher level character." My point is this. I got so frustrated with this that I left the group entirely. It's not that my character was dying or anything of the sort. The DM is the one that is in control of the flavor of the game. If you are getting frustrated with it, you should talk to the DM (I have had many talks with mine but he stubornly refuses to see how frustrated the players were getting.) Here's an interesting side note to this. My character was the healer of the party. I have since had players in this group BEGGING me to come back. My character wasn't the highest level character of the group, so it just shows that the weakest link is NOT always the "under powered" character.
Beamup 04-29-04, 11:02 AM	I agree with what's be posted so far - it sounds like the DM is ignoring ECL. How do the class levels of these characters compare? If they're even with yours, tell the DM to read the section on ECL in the Monster Manual.
Elrana 04-29-04, 01:59 PM	Funky races alone do not make a good character. I have seen many players take a level penalty to play a non-standard race and totally fail to keep up with the standard races in the group. The were- template (+3 adjustment) is wrong in my view, it has too many advantages, no disadvantages and not a high enough level penalty. The hound archon (+ 5 adjustment) is a pretty good race in all fairness, but I fail to see how a well constructed 8th level character should not be a match for a hound archon with three character levels if he is evil, and is he is not evil it would be very hard to explain why they are in contest with one another! The half-celestial (+4 adjustment) is a great template but does not really come into power until it has a fair number of hit dice and so at 8th level, again, should be walking in the footprints of a dwarven cleric of Moradin. If you did not begin at 1st level, and you shouldn't have done, then there should also be a noticable descrepancy between your and their equipment. I would base wealth by level on class levels, not ECL (assuming that the level penalty brings a funky race player to young adulthood when they begin adventuring, please feel free to argue against this. I am happy to bow to a decisive victory!) and therefore you should be better equipped and, 3.5 being very much about how well equiped a character is, that should also give you the edge. If all else fails report the were-bear to the authorites, and take the other two to one of the evil planes of existence. When confronted by a half-celestial, a hound archon and a dwarf just see who the denizens take out first! :smirk: By the way I am using level 8 as a base simply because it has been used earlier, do not suppose any assumptions on my part because of it.
DevilKiller 04-29-04, 02:33 PM	Yeah...your DM is probably doing something wrong. Still, if you try Divine Power and Righteous Might you should find that your combat abilities rise dramatically. Clerics can also cheat the system just a little bit by getting +1 weapons and armor with spiffy enchantments like flaming or fortification and then using spells like Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestment to raise the +. You should also consider casting Spiritual Weapon a lot and possibly using inflict spells and Harm as level and alignment permit. In any event, you should certainly be the mac daddy against any sort of undead. Oh, if your DM is using the ECL rules wrong and refuses to change you might be able to fool him into thinking that Battletide (from one of the FR books) is a fine, balanced spell for you to have.
Crusher Nate 04-29-04, 06:01 PM	If your DM just isn't using level adjustments at all, I'd recommend you start pestering him for an acquired template, like Saint. It's a nice one; it's in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Clearly your DM doesn't have a problem with non-core PC stuff, so this might be just what you're looking for.
Elrana 04-29-04, 06:03 PM	Another vital thing to remember for a good cleric is never, ever memorise a cure spell. Always memorise spells that will give you the greatest flexibility. If you need to cast a heal spell then fine, decide which memorised spell you need least and spontaneously cast is as a heal. It can make serious differences to the effectiveness of your character and is one of the reasons clerics really are damn good! I'd recommend you start pestering him for an acquired template, like Saint. It's a nice one; Oh, a new game! Who can make the biggest understatement! Saying that is like saying kicking a sleeping tarrasque is moderately perilous! :D
Mr.Musgrave 04-29-04, 09:34 PM	Hmm...you guys are crazy. Here you are applying logic while I'm pitching a fit.;) Anyway, the DM has some whacked out ELC house rule that I did argue against. I can't remember what it is exactly but it's definatly in the favor of the ELC characters. It's not that they're working against me or anything, I just chose to play a dwarf instead of a half-celestial-dragon-were-bear whatever the hell. Of course I'm the only one against the rule because I'm the only one who's effected negativly by it. Oh, and right now I'm level 4 while everyone else is level 7 or so. This really wasn't a big deal to me but with their unchecked ELC characters, it's just gettin' me whupped. It's just a bit-broken, eh? Stafir: I don't know why I want to re-roll. They just seem like such cheesy numbers. I've always been weird about that. It's not like a anti-powergame thing or anything like that, it just seems weird looking at a character sheet where almost all the numbers are 18's at 4th level. I'm just weird. Elrana You're right. Funky races don't make a good character. I think my frustration made me forget that. Oh, and that "no-memorizing heal spells" is a great idea that never occurred to me. This is my first time with a cleric so it's a learning experiance. Crusher Nate The saint template is a good idea. It'd fit pretty well with my character ideas too. Thanks for the help everyone. Hopefully I'll get this sorted out. :)
Stafir Ortnev 04-29-04, 10:08 PM	Eh..at least you just have the same problem as me. Seeing high numbers gets to me too *laughs*. But really....you can play that out as well. And from the sounds of it, your character is pretty weak anyway, heh. Besides you got em fair an square....and the DM can easily account for any stats you all have, so don't worry bout it much, heh.
Christian Landry 04-29-04, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by Mr.Musgrave Of course I'm the only one against the rule because I'm the only one who's effected negativly by it. How I wish that more players would see that a rule is broken, and ask the DM to fix it... even if the rule is broken in their favor. It's a game, not a race.
SIippery Mind 04-29-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by Elrana I'd recommend you start pestering him for an acquired template, like Saint. It's a nice one; The saint is IMO THE most dificult template to acquire. 3 exalted feats (which pretty much have to be granted by the DM,) and a significant sacrifice on the character's part. In the example of my healer character, she already has all the requirements, though it seems the "significant sacrifice" is still up in the air. But I ask you, what should a significant sacrifice be? After all, she has already sarificed her life to save a party member from death, she has given up ALL of her wealth to aid the needy (albeit it is a requirement for VoP,) and, utilizing a house rule, she has given up 5000 exp to be able to true res a character. Now I ask you, how hord SHOULD it be for a character to qualify to be a saint. The players in my group all agree that she has more than qualified for the template, but the DM has been silent so far. hmmm.
Mr.Musgrave 04-30-04, 01:33 AM	Originally posted by Christian Landry How I wish that more players would see that a rule is broken, and ask the DM to fix it... even if the rule is broken in their favor. It's a game, not a race. Ain't that the sad truth.
ImmortalBlueMage 04-30-04, 02:55 AM	At the risking of being flamed (*casts Resist Energy for fire damage*), I'm going to advise you to abandon your Dwarf and play as a Half-Dragon Troll with Efreeti Bloodline levels and seven or eight different prestige classes at an ECL of about a gazillion or so. Or something along those lines... It's not a popular view to take on these boards, and personally, in my games, I don't let anyone stray far from the Players Handbook, but be that as it may, sometimes crazy overpowered games can be fun. Seriously, a lot of gamers out there would adore having a DM who let them play as a Hound Archon or something. If you just go with the flow you might find it's a fun change of pace. Likely the game won't last very long, so just relax and go nuts while you have the chance.
Elrana 04-30-04, 03:47 AM	Originally posted by SIippery Mind The saint is IMO THE most dificult template to acquire. 3 exalted feats (which pretty much have to be granted by the DM,) and a significant sacrifice on the character's part. In the example of my healer character, she already has all the requirements, though it seems the "significant sacrifice" is still up in the air. But I ask you, what should a significant sacrifice be? After all, she has already sarificed her life to save a party member from death, she has given up ALL of her wealth to aid the needy (albeit it is a requirement for VoP,) and, utilizing a house rule, she has given up 5000 exp to be able to true res a character. Now I ask you, how hord SHOULD it be for a character to qualify to be a saint. The players in my group all agree that she has more than qualified for the template, but the DM has been silent so far. hmmm. Well, according to the Catholic church you need to be witnessed performing at least one miracle, live in a leper colony helping the residents for most of your life, be politically suitable for use as a tool to increase positive public opinion... If you've tried everything else I recommended chopping off a leg. Maybe the DM's! With regard the whole overpowered funky race thing we are shortly starting a 'savage species' game (not a true title as we aretaking most things from the 3.5 MM). You begin with 14 levels to play with as your total ECL. How many you turn into racial, class or penalty levels is up to you. You also get the full 150,000gp starting wealth no more than half of which may be spent on one item. Centaur, half gold-dragon monk with monk's belt, amulet of mighty fists +4, combat reflexes and karmic strike. Potential attacks per round - 15! Very, very wrong! But then if well constructed so should everyone else's characters be so it's all good.
Mr.Musgrave 04-30-04, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by ImmortalBlueMage It's not a popular view to take on these boards, and personally, in my games, I don't let anyone stray far from the Players Handbook, but be that as it may, sometimes crazy overpowered games can be fun. Seriously, a lot of gamers out there would adore having a DM who let them play as a Hound Archon or something. If you just go with the flow you might find it's a fun change of pace. Likely the game won't last very long, so just relax and go nuts while you have the chance. Oh, don't get me wrong; I enjoy the occasional high-powered just-for-fun over-the-top game like everyone else but I just don't want to do it right now. Yeah, I'm going against the grain but, like I said at the last game, if I wanted to be annoyed I'd stay at home and pay bills. We're in our second year of the same campaign and it's fun mostly. Mind you, we're currently trapped in a realm I hate and I'm the punching bag because I'm always the one saving the day (think one superman to 4 lois lanes.) It's just gotten my nerves lately. Oh, well. We'll see.
SIippery Mind 04-30-04, 04:35 AM	Originally posted by Elrana Well, according to the Catholic church you need to be witnessed performing at least one miracle, live in a leper colony helping the residents for most of your life, be politically suitable for use as a tool to increase positive public opinion... If you've tried everything else I recommended chopping off a leg. Maybe the DM's! As far as I know, you also have to be dead, but then the Roman Catholic church is not the final authority on who would be considered a saint. I was merely going by the rules set up in BoED (and I am sure you are aware of that.) :D
Elrana 04-30-04, 08:44 AM	Originally posted by SIippery Mind As far as I know, you also have to be dead, but then the Roman Catholic church is not the final authority on who would be considered a saint. I was merely going by the rules set up in BoED (and I am sure you are aware of that.) :D :D You already have been dead! Maybe your DM is just going by real world rules and your character is currently being discussed by some synod somewhere with regard to his beatification and if the synod vote to beatify him he can be proposed for canonisation in a future meeting! There have been living saints in the past, but not for quite some time (15 centuries or so, maybe a little less). Many of them were particularly praised for their protective nature toward the weak or the young. (In many cases this even ran to allowing young apprentice scribes and what-have-you to stay in their rooms over night so that they could have 24 hour protection! :mymy: ) Have you asked your DM if you would be better off to dress your character as a performing dog, run off to join a circus and name him Wonderboy, if not exactly how does he expect you to jump through enough hoops to get this template?! Once he realises you are getting fed up, assuming he doesn't kill you for excessive sarcasm, he might give you a straight answer. Edit: Canonise and beatify are now in the correct order.
SIippery Mind 04-30-04, 01:12 PM	Originally posted by Elrana You already have been dead! ... Have you asked your DM if you would be better off to dress your character as a performing dog, run off to join a circus and name him Wonderboy, if not exactly how does he expect you to jump through enough hoops to get this template?! Once he realises you are getting fed up, assuming he doesn't kill you for excessive sarcasm, he might give you a straight answer. I have mentioned the fact that my char has already been dead but he seems to think that being raised is a complete reversal of that. I gave him an example of why it should apply: marriage. If you die, you are no longer married, even if you get raised (you know, till death do you part.) He didn't buy that, saying it was a real world example. ok. fine. So why use a "real world" system for earning sainthood?!? :headexplo So, anyway, I have decided to ask another DM in my group (who actually GETS my character concept) if I could transplant that char to his world, and he said he would consider it (he's one of the people who likes her.) :D
Elrana 04-30-04, 01:28 PM	Originally posted by SIippery Mind I have mentioned the fact that my char has already been dead but he seems to think that being raised is a complete reversal of that. I gave him an example of why it should apply: marriage. If you die, you are no longer married, even if you get raised (you know, till death do you part.) He didn't buy that, saying it was a real world example. ok. fine. So why use a "real world" system for earning sainthood?!? :headexplo So, anyway, I have decided to ask another DM in my group (who actually GETS my character concept) if I could transplant that char to his world, and he said he would consider it (he's one of the people who likes her.) :D Well, being raised is really a complete reversal of being dead! It just doesn't negate the fact that you have been dead. I'm not certain I really understand his requirement that you should be dead in order to be sainted. How long were you dead for last time? Was it a very short period of time? If so maybe this means that if you die again and stay dead for longer you can be posthumously canonised (reading over the last posts I realised I had switched the meanings of beatified and canonised, I may go back to edit it so as not to be misleading but I thought I should at least point out my muppetry first!), add the template to your dead character and then be true resurrected as a character with the sainthood? [Will you also be given a 'thing' to be patron saint of, if so what would you choose, and will you have your own day, if so what date would it be and give a brief outline of what celebrations or otherwise you would expect to take place on it? (Just for fun! :D)] But joking aside ask him about the posthumous thing.
SIippery Mind 04-30-04, 01:58 PM	Well, I have pretty much given up on that DM. But to answer your question (just for fun.) I think she would be the patron saint of the poor, though that seems a bit broad of scope. As a side note, she used to be a noble character before her "adventuring" career, so she has given up quite a bit so she could aid other people. As for a "day," not sure when that would be, or if it matters that much. :D
Beamup 04-30-04, 02:42 PM	Originally posted by Mr.Musgrave Anyway, the DM has some whacked out ELC house rule that I did argue against. I can't remember what it is exactly but it's definatly in the favor of the ELC characters. You need to utilize this spell: Smite DM Evocation Level: Player 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close Target: Player's DM Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You smite the DM with righteous wrath. This mighteous smiting renders the DM apologetic and forces him to rescind stupid house rules. The verbal component consists of reciting a list of said stupid house rules, the somatic component entails beating him about the head and shoulders with the focus. Focus: A DMG.
Mr.Musgrave 04-30-04, 02:48 PM	Originally posted by Beamup You need to utilize this spell: Smite DM Evocation Level: Player 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close Target: Player's DM Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You smite the DM with righteous wrath. This mighteous smiting renders the DM apologetic and forces him to rescind stupid house rules. The verbal component consists of reciting a list of said stupid house rules, the somatic component entails beating him about the head and shoulders with the focus. Focus: A DMG. :rofl: The amazing thing is, I did exactly that wednesday. I whacked him upside the head with the DMG while yelling "SMITE!" I guess I'm not such a bad spell-caster afterall. ;)
phizuol 04-30-04, 03:02 PM	Ask the werebear to bite you. Problem solved. :D
SIippery Mind 04-30-04, 03:07 PM	Originally posted by phizuol Ask the werebear to bite you. Problem solved. :D It was a were rat, and no, that would only complicate things (my char is exalted, after all.)
phizuol 04-30-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by SIippery Mind It was a were rat, and no, that would only complicate things (my char is exalted, after all.) Oops, I meant the original poster. Sorry, I didn't read all the way down.
SIippery Mind 04-30-04, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by phizuol Oops, I meant the original poster. Sorry, I didn't read all the way down. Sorry about that. hehe :blush:
Sssargoth 04-30-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Beamup You need to utilize this spell: Smite DM Evocation Level: Player 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close Target: Player's DM Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You smite the DM with righteous wrath. This mighteous smiting renders the DM apologetic and forces him to rescind stupid house rules. The verbal component consists of reciting a list of said stupid house rules, the somatic component entails beating him about the head and shoulders with the focus. Focus: A DMG. could the focus be a cardboard tube instead? cuz i only have 1 DMG and its mine. Im not the DM btw
Lincoln Hills 04-30-04, 04:13 PM	A DM who doesn't believe in applying ECL, eh? What a golden opportunity for you to pull out that other character concept... "Since I wasn't really pulling my weight before, I brought a new character for your approval, Mr. No ECL. She's got EXACTLY the same number of cleric levels as the dwarf, so she's not unbalanced... even though she's the ghost of a half-celestial beholder Great Mother."