Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Phantom Flan Flinger 07-31-07, 12:46 AM	In the past I've built characters based on what I'll enjoy playing - concept first, and then stats and feats to fit. It's always worked out OK, until last night when I died horribly at the claws of a monster whose attack bonus was equal to my AC and who took me from full HP to -13 in two hits*. It ended up being a TPK-1 and found myself in a minority of one over whether to continue the campaign (it's pre-writtens) with a new party or do something else, so I now need to come up with a character who can go up against stuff like that (presumably it only gets harder as we go along) without dying so easily. Whether this means heavy armour and shield, high-HD classes, Con as the primary stat or whatever. Trouble is, I don't have a single concept that I want to play that's suitable for this sort of thing. I like light-armoured, skill-pointed, urban types but this doesn't seem to be what the campaign is about - so far it's been a series of encounters in the middle of nowhere. Being useless in combat basically means staying out of the game, because there isn't anything else to do. So, I need to find something that gives me a fair chance of survival - and that I at least wouldn't mind trying concept-wise, because it's not fair on me or everyone else for me to show up with something that I don't want to play (e.g. half-orc barbarian) and then not have any fun. It's going to be hard enough feigning enthusiasm for what IMO is a sucky set of pre-writtens without painting myself into a corner on the RP side too. Already in the party (subject to changes of mind) we have: Swash 3/Wiz 3 - the sole survivor. He will be coming up to level 7 while we're starting halfway through level 4. Favoured Soul - as yet undecided between melee and ranged. Fighter - concentrating on getting his AC into the stratosphere by any means necessary so as not to die this time. Gnome illusionist or enchanter - this player having decided that staying out of the combat gives the best chance of survival. I bagged the "rogue" role for myself, but now I don't know. We keep fighting things with concealment, there are undead all over the place, and we never get the drop on anyone, all of which conspire to make the class feel like a fighter without the feats, HP or BAB. I do like having skill points, though. In previous campaigns I've played rogue, monk, psion, warlock and swashbuckler, all of which have been fun. The just-dead character was a fighter/rogue. I like to travel light, and I prefer to have abilities that don't "run out" after X uses/day. Stats are 17, 17, 14, 13, 12, 11 (We do chargen by each rolling a statline using 4d6 drop lowest and everyone can then choose which set to play, so we all have this one.) So stat-wise I can play any class I like. Anyone got any ideas for a character I might enjoy playing and that won't die? We can use core plus PHBII, Completes and Races. Haven't asked about psionics, but that's another possibility (don't want to overlap with the gnome though). The setting is FR. *And yes, I did try to retreat - but he had 10' reach, I have a +13 in Tumble, and I rolled a 1. What an ironic ending for someone with three Luck feats.
Kitaki 07-31-07, 01:02 AM	Try maybe a Warblade or a Swordsage from Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords. Both have good survivability (Warblade more than Swordsage) and their abilities are usable a number of times per encounter, which are rechargable with an appropriate action for each class.
madam_mim 07-31-07, 01:07 AM	You prefer to not run out of uses and you chose Luck feats?! For shame! Just kidding. But seriously, get rid of those. Let's see: How 'bout a rogue that likes to use thrown or ranged weapons? Maybe get into the Master Thrower class and Invisible Blade classes of the Complete Warrior? Keep feinting and you'll never have to flank again! Also if you like rogues be sure to nab the feat that let's you use sneak attacks on undead. That's about all I can think that's roguey but behind the scenes in combat, and will allow your Dex to be useful without weapon finesse.
Azezel 07-31-07, 01:18 AM	I'd recomend a Knight (PHB II). Serriously survivable - d12 HD, heavy armour & shields (and class features to make heavy armour & shields even better!) and a Good Will save to help with those nasty save-or-dies. The only way to kill a Knight is if you take Weapon Focus (Tin Opener).
Dragonsblood 07-31-07, 01:20 AM	Why are you starting 3 levels below the surviver? Between this and the manner of your TPK, it sounds like your DM knows nothing about balance. What was the value of your gear of your old character? What monster did you fight? Make a ranger and focus on archery. You'll have the skill points you like, access to healing magic (especially with a wand of CLW), faster speed with light armor, and you'll be out of melee range.
madam_mim 07-31-07, 01:28 AM	Or you could just do the above..... Yeah, what is the EL of this campaign anyways? If the critter's melee + was as high as your AC....
DM_Death 07-31-07, 01:29 AM	Human Rogue2/Fighter2/Swordsage2. Put your best stats in Dex and Wis wear light armor so you can add your WIS mod to AC. After 6th level, just level up Rogue, unless you find a PrC you're interested in. Take Able Learner from Races of Destiny (not really necessary, but it will allow you to continue putting ranks in "cross-class" skills without the extra cost). Use your fighter bonus feats to take EWP (Spiked Chain) and Improved Trip. Take Shadow Blade from ToB and maintain a Shadow Hand Stance to add your DEX mod to damage. Also, see if your DM will allow flaws from Unearthed Arcana (take 2 and get 2 bonus feats!). Take Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker from PHB II as soon as possible. (This works wonders with a spiked chain, especially if you can get your party tank to take them also...) For undead, all you need is a Truedeath augment crystal from the MIC. Get the greater (a whopping 10000gp, but WELL worth it if you fight lots of undead) so you can crit and sneak attack undead, deal an extra d6 damage vs. undead, and have your weapon function as a ghost touch weapon. Also, a Rogue's Vest will give you a +1d6 bonus damage on successful sneak attacks, as will the Deadly Precision property. I've built this character before, and it's RIDICULOUS.
danielinthewolvesden 07-31-07, 01:38 AM	Already in the party (subject to changes of mind) we have: Swash 3/Wiz 3 - the sole survivor. He will be coming up to level 7 while we're starting halfway through level 4. Favoured Soul - as yet undecided between melee and ranged. Fighter - concentrating on getting his AC into the stratosphere by any means necessary so as not to die this time. Gnome illusionist or enchanter - this player having decided that staying out of the combat gives the best chance of survival. I bagged the "rogue" role for myself, but now I don't know. We keep fighting things with concealment, there are undead all over the place, and we never get the drop on anyone, all of which conspire to make the class feel like a fighter without the feats, HP or BAB. I do like having skill points, though. Stats are 17, 17, 14, 13, 12, 11 (We do chargen by each rolling a statline using 4d6 drop lowest and everyone can then choose which set to play, so we all have this one.) So stat-wise I can play any class I like. Anyone got any ideas for a character I might enjoy playing and that won't die? We can use core plus PHBII, Completes and Races. Haven't asked about psionics, but that's another possibility (don't want to overlap with the gnome though). The setting is FR. . Well, your DM has made a serious error here. If you folks are 3 level below the Wizard, all that will happen is that you die. :surrender :banghead: :ghosted: You should all be at level 6, base eps. If your DM disagrees, have him either come here and post or PM me. I would play a Ranger, and ask for the alternative class feature (trapfinding) from Dungeonscape. Dwarf. Ranged. Str 13, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 13, WIS 12, CHA9. (does this include the +1 you get from 4th level? If not then your Con will be 20!) Get the feat from PHII that allows you to use CON for Will saves and also has the bonus of a Natural 1 is not an auto-fail on FORT saves.:cool: Improved Toughness. Great saves, very high HP, average of 12 per level. 7 skill points per level. Going for the Dwarven ranger class in Races of Stone, of course! A good bow, best Mithril chain and vest/cloak of resistance you can buy. Wand of CLW. Yeah, folks will say "no, get PB shot and other archery feats!" Wrongo- better offense does not help if you are dead. Those two feats will keep you alive. At 6th you can take PB shot, etc.
Lotusblossom 07-31-07, 02:58 AM	We can use core plus PHBII, Completes and Races. Races of the Dragon. Kobold. Slippers of Spider Climbing. Tanglefoot bags. Ditherbombs. Hide skill.
bobothechimp 07-31-07, 03:01 AM	Warforged commoner who weaves baskets. Never get into a fight, never die of age.
Ics 07-31-07, 03:10 AM	For survivability, there are few better than the crusader; while they have only d10 HD (as opposed to the d12 of the warblade), you'll get a delayed damage pool (to stave off the hurt) and a fist full of maneuvers that heal you (or allies) while you are on the offensive. If it's undead that are the problem, there's always cleric. If that seems too obvious, try taking three levels of scout, then going into ranger and taking the Swift Hunter (I think that's what it's called; see Complete Scoundrel) feat, allowing you to skirmish undead (if they are your favored enemy); at 4th level you won't be able to take Improved Skirmish (also from CS), but I recommend it for 6th level (as well as Improved Multishot later if you go archery). As a sidenote, I think that all of these feats are at least a little too good (Improved Multishot only so in the hands of a scout), but it sounds like your DM is making things a little too difficult. [EDIT: Didn't see the part where you don't mention Tome of Battle as one of your allowed books, but even if you can't convince your DM to allow ToB, the second build will still work].
Infernostrider 07-31-07, 07:06 AM	best i can come up with for you would be rogue(1)/cleric. 1 level of rogue gives you a lot of skillpoints, even with relatively low intelligence, while clerics can fight fairly well and can heal to boot. next to that, you said there are undead all over the place, clerics can turn undead so that should help a bit. The foremost reason i'd multiclass to rogue is because there isn't anyone else who can really fullfill that role, and 1 rogue level ensures favorable class skills in at least find trap/disarm trap etc (cba to look on my character sheet to see the actual names ^^) stuff like that might really help out at times. however, a full rogue isn't very important, especially in higher level high-encounter zones. Multiclassing to cleric allows you to fight better, have more health then a rogue (but less then a fighter), you'll be able to heal when that is more important then another fighter, and you can fight when everyone is able to hold his own without constant healing. It should be the answer to some of your groups troubles :)
Khadmus 07-31-07, 08:00 AM	Why are you starting 3 levels below the surviver? Between this and the manner of your TPK, it sounds like your DM knows nothing about balance. What was the value of your gear of your old character? What monster did you fight? Make a ranger and focus on archery. You'll have the skill points you like, access to healing magic (especially with a wand of CLW), faster speed with light armor, and you'll be out of melee range. and take the trapfinding substitution from dungeonscape. There's your rogue.
Hapless 07-31-07, 08:12 AM	If you want to be likely to survive, have free feats, and keep getting killed in the wilderness, why not try a ranger? they get a free progression tree, either rasnged or two handed, they have a fighters bab, they get spells (if a little late), and they are pretty similair to rogues, in that they are good scouts, and are pretty sneaky. basically, ranger = fighter, diviner, rogue, druid.
runestar 07-31-07, 08:14 AM	and take the trapfinding substitution from dungeonscape. There's your rogue. Is that the one which lets you deal half your sneak attack to undead? Or maybe some sort of rogue/ranger multiclass?
zelf_gale 07-31-07, 10:32 AM	STR 13 DEX 17 CON 17 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 11 Human Rogue 1/ Ranger X Feats, Weapon Finese, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Defense Favored Enemy(Undead) Combat Style(Two Weapon Fighting) Weapons, Quarterstaff and short swords.
Phrennzy 07-31-07, 11:13 AM	Rogue 1/ Cleric X Wear a chain shirt and a buckler. Use a bow in combat. Keeps you out of melee, and lets you keep skill points. Also able to heal yourself and others and prevent TPKs. In a campaign loaded with undead, you might take Extra Turning. Clerical spells are great buffs, and can keep you from getting creamed. Using the bow lets you have a lower STR score so you can put more into Dex/Wis/Cha/Con Sun Domain is always nice for use against undead, and Travel fits with Sun, and gives you Freedom of Movement (great for the anti-grapple).
aotrscommander 07-31-07, 11:31 AM	I'm inclined to look into the possibility of summoner (either Druid or Sorcerer; the former has more survivability and animal shields compaions). I'm half-convinced there's a feat or something somewhere that lets you summon as a standard action, but I can't for the unlife of me remember where it is. Then take Augment Summoning and spam Summon [whatever] like crap and try and keep the nasty stuff away from you. Another, similar possibilty is to play a neutral cleric with Rebuke (an alternative would have been Dread Necromancer maybe with Pale Master PrC to boot) and try and steal (with rebuke or Command Undead) some of the numerous Undead to fight for you. Another option might be to try and charm/dominate (but it you're running into lots of Undead, this might not helpful). The main crux of the idea is to have a wall of bodies - maybe even some of them not dead yet - between you and the attacking thing while you used ranged attacks.
danielinthewolvesden 07-31-07, 01:47 PM	Is that the one which lets you deal half your sneak attack to undead? No. It is a alternative class feature where you give up a class feature and gain another- in this case you gain Trapfinding.
Khadmus 07-31-07, 06:36 PM	you lose track to gain trapfinding.
wizarddog 08-01-07, 12:25 AM	Well, all you have against the Undead is a Favored soul. Play a cleric for pete's sake! Maybe even a Ranger/Cleric would be interesting (though I'm sure otimizers would argue differently :( ) Wear a Chain shirt. Take the archery path. Put high scores in WS and DX. AND by all means CHANGE YOUR TATICS. Don't go toe to toe with the foe ;) I notice a lot of people calling for class in the swords book. I should point out that a) they are not books available to the poster and b) they are overpowered anyway.
danielinthewolvesden 08-01-07, 02:13 AM	I notice a lot of people calling for class in the swords book. I should point out that a) they are not books available to the poster a Let us leave it at "they are not available to the OP".
Ace_of_time 08-01-07, 02:35 AM	Kobold, Monk/ninja/scout with spring attack. or go cleric with the undead being there with turning feats and go N with rebuke.
Allarian 08-01-07, 02:46 AM	I'm inclined to look into the possibility of summoner (either Druid or Sorcerer; the former has more survivability and animal shields compaions). I'm half-convinced there's a feat or something somewhere that lets you summon as a standard action, but I can't for the unlife of me remember where it is. Their is, it's a alternate class feature for conjuration specialist wizards, they give up thier familiar to summon as a standard action, they can also give up wizard bonus feats to get augment summoning at level 1 instead of scribe scroll, with other bonuses at higher levels.
LoneStranger 08-01-07, 02:58 AM	Since the GM of the game has some interesting ideas about game balance (a 3 level drop when you die?) I'd say take the NPC class commoner. I see a great FUBAR in the making if you try to make a character to survive the campaign. Oh and make him a champion dart thrower, that way you have a weapon to use when you get into combat.
Grogmir 08-01-07, 06:28 AM	I join those saying “Have a word with your DM” NO WAY – should you be 3 levels lower than anyone…. You DM is rubbish. And when faced with a TPK DM there is only 1 answer… The Druid! Go Druid 20… Kill everything he throws at you… Then kill their Familes… Then kill the other PC’s… Why not? They looked at you funny! Grogmir
Salick 08-01-07, 01:54 PM	If your DM allows psionics you might like the Psychic rogue class in the Minds Eye articles or the Lurk class from the Complete Psionic. Choose Elan as your race (if allowed) and consider yourself a rogue that can use power points to reduce damage dealt to you with the Elan racial ability(there is a feat that allows you to spend 1 power point to reduce damage by 4 per point spent). Also, both of these classes gain useful powers for a rogue type character.
kainpendragon 08-01-07, 03:17 PM	ummm you should have used the full round action called withdraw it allows you to move away from attacker at double movement and provokes no AoO. you would have lived no need to trumble roll. keep that in mind next time. it is on page 143 players handbook. your character was more then likely fine you just made a bad choice. rember only tumble to something not away from it.
MagickHobo 08-01-07, 05:39 PM	I was about to suggest a swordsage, but you don't have Tome of Battle. A shame. But! Since you have Complete Adventurer, I'd think you'd like Scout. Eight skill points, d8 HD, fast movement, and bonus AC and damage for running around, as in, AVOIDING enemies. Get a bow, some archery feats, and have fun. Also, the get trapsense, and errata says disable device is a class skill for them.
danielinthewolvesden 08-01-07, 07:54 PM	ummm you should have used the full round action called withdraw it allows you to move away from attacker at double movement and provokes no AoO. you would have lived no need to trumble roll. keep that in mind next time. it is on page 143 players handbook. your character was more then likely fine you just made a bad choice. rember only tumble to something not away from it. Withdraw does not work if the monster (as in this case) has reach. Withdraw only gets you the first 5' safe.
KhosatralKhel 08-01-07, 10:14 PM	Make a TROLL fighter (if your DM puts up with Savage species). Plate, tower shield, dump feats into improved natural armor and anything defensive that strikes you as cool. If not, go with the ranger idea but dump spellcasting as per Complete Warrior no cast variant ranger. +10 ft. I tried. : P
PandaDragon 08-02-07, 01:55 PM	Hmm... lets see... Class:Ranger, Has what you need: steath, to hit and damage bonus's(favord enemys), ranged or two wepon melee focus's, light armor, favord enemy undead should do it focus you skill in spot, listen, survival you should to fine. Nothing beats open lock and disable divice, but rogue didn't work to well before so just carry a big stick (10' pole) you should do all right. Race: Elf or Dwarf Elf:Spot and listen bonus'(good aginst "lurkers"), lowlight vision is always good, able to see hidden doors by standing next to them, bonus to DEX albeit at a penalty to CON, generaly all-around good for the Ranger class. Dwarf:Darkvision, if you go two wepon melee you get a racial double wepon free(dwarven ugratosh), CON bonus albeit at a CHA penalty but you probly wern't the diplomat to begin with, then to bonus' to goblins and gaints , generaly over look as Rangers but they realy do make good ones, and top it all off dwarfs are cool. Either an Elf Ranger or a Dwarf Ranger, this should be just about every thing you need.
danielinthewolvesden 08-02-07, 03:53 PM	Make a TROLL fighter (if your DM puts up with Savage species). In general, anything with LA (even Trolls)is less survivable than races without LA. Yep, dwarven ranger, that's the way to go. OP are you still here?
kainpendragon 08-02-07, 04:02 PM	Withdraw does not work if the monster (as in this case) has reach. Withdraw only gets you the first 5' safe. I looked back at it and see what you are talking about but i found something else intresting. why is it a creatue with 10ft reach can strike 15ft. if strikering diagonally??? because every 2nd square diagnaol counts as 10ft. that kind of make movement rules broken it set up in the dmg in the back at the reach tables as every square 2 away from the creature is 10ft. maybe every square should be 5ft only then. Other wise it is a even bigger advantage reach. what it looks like in the dmg xxxxxx xxxxxx xx00xx xx00xx xxxxxx xxxxxx maybe what is should look like x = reach with in 10ft 0 = 15ft away according ot movent rules 1= can be argued both ways. 01xx10 1xxxx1 xx00xx xx00xx 1xxxx1 01xx10 after looking at creatures15ft + reach the shadeing uses the same rules as movment only 10ft reach diagram is messed up it seems. one could rule that withdrawing is possalbe from a creature with out an AoO depending on where you where in place of the creature.
The Phantom Flan Flinger 08-02-07, 05:01 PM	OP are you still here? Yep, still here! Just wanting to collect as many ideas as I could before jumping back in. I think the idea behind the difference in levels is that the DM believed the Sole Survivor to be underpowered compared to the others (there is a long and dull story behind all this, but that's the upshot of it) and also was unsure about why any new party would touch SS with a ten foot pole due to his alignment and attitude. So making him a higher level (therefore powerful/important, therefore a natural leader*) would get rid of two potential problems. I have no idea what he'd planned to do with the encounters as a result of this, but I suspect he hadn't thought that far. Anyhow. I took the advice often given on the forums but not so often taken, and talked to the DM and the other players. And it worked - or, should I say, it turned out the DM had gone through a thought process not dissimilar to mine, having noticed the differences between our original set of character concepts (heavy on the personality and interaction) and the new ones (survivalist and mechanics-based) and decided that that wasn't the way he wanted his campaign to go. The TPK was the result of a snap judgment call not to nerf the encounter when it became obvious we stood no chance, which he regretted after the event. So, the plans have now changed! SS is to roll up a new character along with the rest of us, which is a relief to all concerned including SS's player. Better still, we aren't going to be following the pre-written for a while, and when we do I think the plan is to just dip into it every now and then while running a parallel adventure path that's more about story and less about a string of combats loosely joined together. I think I may use one of these build ideas all the same, even though the threat of pointless and random death has now receded. People have come up with so many ideas here that I hadn't ever considered before and that look good. I've never even played a Ranger. I have no idea what the monster was. Some sort of upright crocodile beast thing - it attacked with a bite and a tail and had reach, DR, spell resistance (I think) and an AC of 26. I don't DM so I don't know about what's appropriate at what level, but it was the damage it dished out that made it so difficult - everyone except the raging barbarian went down to "totally dead" (skipping the bleeding out process entirely) in two hits. We were underpowered in terms of gear, but that was due to a "mistunderstanding" with the local townsfolk meaning that we hadn't been near a shop since level 4, and the items we've been finding along the way have been mainly jewellery etc. I was in masterwork studded leather. And as a final insult it turned out it wasn't even the boss, so our deaths really were meaningless. Thanks for all the ideas and feedback, it's been much appreciated. *Similar theory to the real world, where your boss can get away with all sorts of obnoxious behaviour in the name of "leadership style" and "assertiveness" while your feet wouldn't touch the ground if you tried it.
Dark Moon Dragyn 08-11-07, 12:40 PM	Just found this post and had an idea, but don't know if it would have worked for your campaign because it revolves around a monster that is not in the books that are mentioned. But I have three other responses to you and the other posters. 1. last night we lost half of our party (5 lvl 4 chars and 2 lvl 2 warrior NPC's) to a CR5 Blue dragon. The thing had insane attack bonus and damage, breath weapon, AC, HD, oh and not to mention it didn't fail a single saving throw against any of our spells (but alot of that has to do with the way our DM rolls, he just rolls really high and is willing to show his rolls to us). 2. I've died as a 2nd or 3rd lvl cleric to hobgoblins. My character took over 20 points of damage in 1 round from hobgoblins. Just because the monster can hit hard doesn't mean much, but I this monster does seem a little over powered. Let me just say that anything that has flight should not be a CR 4 or 5, but that's my opinion. 3. Oh and the whole starting lower thing, you should try playing in my group. Try dying at that level and having to roll up a 1st level character. All the characters start at first level in this campaign, no matter when they come in. With an almost total TPK, I wouldn't suggest it unless the high level character doesn't want any XP, but in a normal campaign it works. The lower character starts climbing pretty rapidly and almost evens out wiht the rest of the party, they might even jump ahead at one point by a few hundred XP. All depends on the style of the group and whether they want to focus more on blance for everyone or if they want to focus more on roleplaying. And I've realized that I actually like starting out at 1st level, it allows you to develop a personality for your character and enjoy the lower levels and near-death experiences. Just my two cents worth, you guys can take it or leave it.
Callista 08-11-07, 01:07 PM	Looks like you're a role-player in a powergaming group! So... ask for advice from powergamers. Go to the CharOp board. Give them your concept and a basic outline of what you want your build to be--classes, stats, feats. Then ask them: "I want to build a character that will survive a combat-oriented game without being too broken. What should I change?" Also, if you like rogues? Remember: Sneak Attack is your friend. The more you can use it, the better. Get a flanking buddy, learn Tumble, get somebody to summon stuff for you, or take feats that'll let you get your opponent flat-footed. The party spellcasters are also your friends--get them to buff the party. And you can do a bit of your own spellcasting via Use Magic Device. Rogues just need to stay out of heavy combat. Hit hard, fall back, rinse and repeat.
OneWinged4ngel 08-13-07, 04:52 PM	You don't need to change from doing concept first, stats second to survive. It's what I do, and I tend to have very effective characters (in fact, to the point that I often kinda hold myself back). Name your concept, and I'll make an effective character around it that's unlikely to die. Though, from your descriptions of what kind of stuff you like, you may want to take a look at Tome of Battle. A swordsage will give you six skill points and the ability to play like a Rogue/Fighter, and it's generally just a cool and fun system to use. Note that AC and HP are far from the only, or even best, ways to stay alive. There are many defensive abilities around, not to mention that in D&D one of the best defenses is a good offense. Negating the enemy's ability to deal damage is just as good as preventing or healing that damage.
Vanraya 08-13-07, 05:13 PM	My humble suggestion is a barbarian 1/ scout whatever. The fix here is high first hit die for easy 12 hit points, fast movement, then the scout class to capitalize on all of that. With a good ranged weapon, and feat selection, you'll never have to enter melee and can launch a devestating volley of arrows. Best of all it's still a skill-y build
Nephlite 08-13-07, 09:02 PM	Ranger 2/(Knight or Cleric or some warrior type class) 1/ Stone blessed (Dwarf) 3/ DeepWarden 2 Deepwarden adds Con to AC (Making Con a great score, more than normal) Stone blessed gives you racial bonuses from the race (choose dwarf) and at level 3 makes you count as race. I choose Ranger due to needing: heal 5 and survival 5.
Callix 08-14-07, 06:28 AM	CharOp is the kind of place for this, but a nice little core rogue trick for survivability is one level (at least) of Shadowdancer. Two is also good, as it gives you Improved Evasion two levels early. The main trick is Hide in Plain Sight. You can't hide in your own shadow, but you can hide in your opponent's, then snipe away. Darkvision helps this build, but Shadowdancer gives it, so the feat from Human is a good idea. Then, if you're ever in a tricky combat spot, use Bluff to distract and hide in their shadow. You lose a few skill points and some sneak attack dice, but gain so much survivability that a few levels at least is a good idea for anyone that qualifies.
archerpwr 08-14-07, 12:40 PM	*looks at long thread and decides to cut to the chase* The CO board can help make the concept "work" in battle. There is a phrase I inadvertantly started: Crusaders (ToB) have not dieing as a class feature.
starfire311 08-14-07, 12:50 PM	*looks at long thread and decides to cut to the chase* The CO board can help make the concept "work" in battle. There is a phrase I inadvertantly started: Crusaders (ToB) have not dieing as a class feature. The 1st thing I thought of when I saw the thread title was crusader. But be warned, I just got done playing a crusader/hellreaver in a campaign... while it was incredibly durable and quite powerful, it was also the most complicated character I have ever played. Everyone always laughed at me because I needed to keep notes on everything that happened every round and I was always shuffling and drawing cards.
Crash169 08-14-07, 04:48 PM	Scout4/Ranger5 STR 17 DEX 17 CON 13 INT 14 WIS 12 CHA 11 +2 Stat Increases due to level. I would suggest boosting Con to 14 and dex or strength to 18. Buy a periapt of health once possible to raise con to 16. Melee Skirmisher Feats: Dodge, mobility, spring attack, swift ambusher(Complete Scoundrel), improved skirmish(Complete Scoundrel). or Ranged Feats: Point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus. As a ranger you can choose to go for the Two weapon fighting tree, or the ranged tree. I would suggest the ranged tree, you can't hit twice with only spring attack, you would need more feats. Scouts get trapfinding, skirmish and +10 land speed. The feat Swift ambusher lets your scout and ranger levels stack for Skirmish damage and Favored enemy. It also allows you to deal skirmish damage to your favored enemies, even if they aren't usually prone to precision damage like skirmish. Take your favored enemies as Undead and Construct (They are usually immune to precision attacks like skirmish). With improved skirmish, you will be dealing +5d6 damage to anything after moving at least 20ft in the same round, and +4AC I believe. Armor: Equip yourself with a shield, a chain shirt, an Amulet of natural armor, and a Ring of protection. Your AC should be up in the twenties. Healing: Buy a wand of cure light wounds for a cheap 750 gp. And a Healing belt for 750gp from the Magic Item Compendium. Misc: Tanglefoot bags, Periapt of health, Bedroll of endure elements, and a cloak of resistance. Make sure you actually play it like a skirmisher though, don't tank. Run in, hit, and run back. The enemy should never get a full attack against you.
archerpwr 08-14-07, 10:22 PM	The 1st thing I thought of when I saw the thread title was crusader. But be warned, I just got done playing a crusader/hellreaver in a campaign... while it was incredibly durable and quite powerful, it was also the most complicated character I have ever played. Everyone always laughed at me because I needed to keep notes on everything that happened every round and I was always shuffling and drawing cards. Sounds about right. I've heard some people dislike the recovery method due to the card's thing. Hellreavers should be pretty simple though. Just keep a die for your points left.
danielinthewolvesden 08-15-07, 01:06 AM	The 1st thing I thought of when I saw the thread title was crusader. But be warned, I just got done playing a crusader/hellreaver in a campaign... while it was incredibly durable and quite powerful, it was also the most complicated character I have ever played. Everyone always laughed at me because I needed to keep notes on everything that happened every round and I was always shuffling and drawing cards. Yeah I know. One thing that makes me laff is the folks here who ALWAYS suggest ToB classes, even after the Op has specifically said he wants something easy to play. Or worse, has said his DM does not allow ToB. :rolleyes:
starfire311 08-19-07, 05:59 PM	Sounds about right. I've heard some people dislike the recovery method due to the card's thing. Hellreavers should be pretty simple though. Just keep a die for your points left. true but it did add one more thing for me to think about... I had my maneuvers that were gained randomly, and I tried to use them every round. I had my holy fury points that were spent as swift/immediate actions that gave me a bonus to att/damage, AC, or saves for 1 round or that could heal someone... so one round I might have a +2 Saves, the next I heal somoene and the next, get a +Att/+Damage. I had my temp HP from Stone power feat I had my steely resolve pool I had my furious counterstrike Buff that went up and down from round to round. This wasn't just a run up and smash melee class, I had to keep track of all this stuff each round, and while I didnt have much trouble with it, I could see a less experienced player gettting overwhelmed and taking excessivly long turns... I just used a note card that kept track of HP, Temp HP, Steely resolve and holy fury points. I just remembered the rest of the stuff, and used note cards for my maneuvers.
Bihlbo 08-20-07, 10:49 AM	Yeah, what is the EL of this campaign anyways? If the critter's melee + was as high as your AC.... Keep in mind they're level 7 and he's not playing an armor wearer. He might have an AC of 13, and that's easy to hit for a level 7 fighter, let alone a monster. In the game I'm currently playing, my spellcaster has an AC of 12, but only thanks to having a +2 deflection bonus. In those rare instances when I can cast mage armor, I'm still very easy to hit by the baddies, and the only other option I have for more AC is to put on heavy armor (with which I'm not proficient). So I feel your pain. Tactics are sometimes the better route to take. If your AC is less than level + 12, and hp less than level x 8, then you should do all you can to keep from getting hit. However, this should never mean that you "stay out of combat." Ranged attacks, magical aid to your allies, setting traps, and making sure the tougher party members stay alive are all excellent ways to keep alive and keep contributing. And don't forget, if it dies faster than it can blink, it usually can't hurt you much. How about you present a few of the concepts you really like and we can help stat those out to ensure survivability?