Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kakerate 05-13-05, 10:15 AM	http://www.geocities.com/xsithos/boat.doc "Click me to see a crappy picture of the boat" (http://www.geocities.com/xsithos/boat.doc) First off I graphed this thing in 2d side and top view, but no scanner(yet!, give me time) so I had to curn out this bitmap disaster. I'll get the real pictures up as soon as possible. I even detailed the rooms and stuff on separate grids outside the ship for maximum detail. I also named the parts of the ship on the grid, but I have to finish my java website TODAY!! (or else if you catch my drift) green = doors brown = Keel(mainbeam running from the front to the back) and mast black = walls red = ladders and stairs red crosses = ratlin(that linked pirate rope for climbing the mast) The anchor takes up a 5ftx5ft area on the mid deck at the front, the puller device takes up a 10ftx5ft area on the mid deck just behind it, and the chain goes through the floor and rests in the cargo area. So sloppyness aside, I need your advice quickly, and I mean NOW! please.. 1) I need advice on what non-magical non-burning insulators I can use for the cookie's area. I plan on having the ale/oil/alchemists fire(AF from now on) in their, and if that place were to start up in flames I want the rest of the ship to be safe from the fire. Think of it as a powder room(ps. I plan on using the alchemists fire in jugs as ammo for the catapult vs ships and other hard enemies!(because the gallon clay jugs of AF have to shatter to work) I wanted the catapult on the back, but if its up front the AF is closer. Non-hard enemies or seaborn ones who can extinguish fire will be shot with the ballista(javelins). 2) I'm buying 8 2-seater lifeboats for the ship. place 6 on the back, and 2 on the front. They are attached sideways so they are easy to deploy. The ship is 85ft from the jib-boom(post sticking out at the front) to the end of the highest deck. The mid area is 75ft(keelboat sized). And the lowest deck is 45ft from one end of the floor to the other not counting slanted parts. I have two toilets, both are at the back of the ship on the middle deck in the slanted part. they have doors which are not shown. In the cargo hold I have 1-ton of equiptment(ropes and sails enough to refit the whole ship twice more). The captains quarters has maps charts and my stuff. The cooks area has all the food and flammable objects. Any add-ons I've left out? 3) (I'm a level 5 human aristocrat who is taking 4 (wealth) feats from the book of feats) basically it gives me close to the amount of gold required for this kind of thing, but I have to build some of the ship myself( "what a pain in the a.." is what I'll say as I roleplay my aristocrat, complaining non-stop, the whole entire game, just because I had to build part of this rotten tub). AND You better believe I'm the F'ING Captain cause my blood sweat and tears are part of this DAMN ship!! I am working on my story(involves me losing my last crew to an Abolith which I will kill some day(think moby dick) with pleasure once I get a new crew of PC's(ps PCs dont know this but the abolith mind controlled my crew from beneath the ship, only I passed the will save(aristocrats have good will saves), then when my crew turned on me I had no choice but to kill them. If you dont tell the PCs I wont! ;) Then the abolith started ramming my ship so I got to the ballista and shot it. It went beneath the waves, but not before I saw it writhing in pain. I know its still out there..waiting for me..but next time I'll beat it hopefully and only lose half my crew. I also will have ranks in sailor, cartogrophy(mapmaking) and astronomy(so I can tell north and latitude neccessary when plotting corse when sailing without landmarks in open ocean) But as for my name I'm at a loss. Any Ideas? Any creative story Ideas? The ship, by the way, is called Cosevo. 4) Does anyone have advice on making a pump. I know frigates had pumps, but does anyone have any idea of the size or mechaics of the pumps? 5) I need a way to use seige weapons proficiently, I can't take the feat because I am already streached for cash(and I'm NOT going to build more of the ship than I already am just to save a feat for seige weapon proficiency) 6) Other things: I plan on getting 2 pc's who can work as sailors, 1 other(probably fighter), no Arcane-casters at all, and 6 sailor mercenaries not counting myself and a cook. 11 people in all 11/12 the ship can hold 12. I have room on-board for one more person. Who or what do you think I should hire? 7)Realisticly I'm going to have to get a loan to help finance this little endevor and I pray the DM wont be mean. I really dont want to make deals with guys named Icepick and Shady. If the DM throws loansharks at me that charge 12% or even 20% interest(per month) what should I do? Any advice on how to get the loans without Icepick and Shady?(because if all else fails I'll sign that contract and hope I get lucky) 8) I need some way to get the PC's on my boat as crew. I plan on offering the barbarian Lizard king(chaotic neutral) the job of looking out for enemies we can fight, while keeping him occupied with practice fighting on deck with the crew as entertainment each day, and I'll allow gambling during this event. That should keep him under control as he is a new player and hasn't shown himself to be really CHAOTIC if you know what I mean. My question is how do I get the rest of them to join. I can promise Pirates, Adventure as thick as mud, and Treasure! But I need something else. What should their wages be? Any advice on this would be WONDERFUL. By the way, if it helps, I'm paying the crew 9-12 sp a day + free Cooked rations.
Kakerate 05-13-05, 10:39 AM	I created my own ballista, on paper it looks good. I even made a firing lever and adjuster gears for it. I understand physics enough to where I can make a ballista, but I have no idea where to start with a catapult. Does anyone know where I can go to get a diagram of a catapult? I could just use the stats in the DMG, but thats no fun now is it? Besides I want to understand how the weapon works. I may even modify my ship to better incorporate the seige weapon. Whould a trebuchet be better than a catapult? I could design a trebuchet that has half its parts assembled to the on deck parts. Thats what I'll end up doing if I dont get any design mechaics for a catapult.(ps I really would rather have a catapult) It would be loads of fun launching the lizard king in that thing. It fits his character perfectly! Its like 100% the chaotic thing to do. Just when he gets bored I'll ask him if he wants to try it for fun. You cant do that kind of stuff with a trebuchet. Using the trebuchet to do that would cause it to malfunction because he is too massive to accelerate to the needed velocity. It would end up killing him, and I dont want to do that(yet_:devil:_).
Kakerate 05-13-05, 11:20 AM	Somebody please help!
Twisted Puppy 05-13-05, 11:39 AM	1) In the sailing ships of the time around the American Revolution and the War of 1812, galley fires were set on large metal (usually iron) plates that were set on the upper deck near the side of the ship. This was so the fire could be quickly dumped overboard in case of bad weather or encountering an enemy. Fire was historically the great killer of wooden ships, which explains why the practice of firing heated shot was never a standard practice. The French experimented with the tactic during the Napoleonic wars, but abandoned the idea after several of their ships managed to set themselves on fire. Plus, the idea of a stray round into the fire being used to heat the shot did not bear contemplation. Similarly, something that got into the alchemist's fire stored on your vessel as ammunition would have unpleasant consequences. If you're going to store something so potentially dangerous on board, put it in a Bag of Holding if you have one. If the bag is destroyed, you just lose what is in it, not the ship. 2) Your ship would probably have at least 3 boats: a launch about 24 feet long, with it's own mast, a cutter similarly outfitted, maybe 20-22 feet long, and a third boat maybe 16-18 feet long. These would be nested in each other between the masts. Remember all the things you are going to have to use ships' boats for: hauling provisions, boarding parties, and repair work on the hull of your ship, just to name a few. 4) Chain pumps were fairly standard in the age of sail, and were basically the type of pump you'd find at a town well writ large. A ship the size of yours would have one, but certainly no more than two. 5) Weapons availability will be determined by the space on your ship. Remember a famous saying by John Paul Jones on taking command of the Bonhomme Richard: "If we do not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have." 6) You must be planning on providing your crew with luxurious living. A Royal Navy brig-of-war circa 1812, about equivalent in size to your vessel, would have a crew of well over a hundred. Eighteen and a half inches by six feet per man for hammock space (by regulation.) Also note that by American standards the ship was undermanned. 7) See if you can get a contract with a merchant cartel. You should have plenty of hold space. Depending on the cargo you choose, your ship could pay for itself in a year or so. 8) Take the standard expert rate for their level, then increase it by half. That should get them thinking. Also add prize money. Typically, the regular crew of a vessel would split a quarter of the value of any prize taken. When a British squadron captured a Spanish treasure fleet, some of the crew (ordinary seamen) bought gold watches and FRIED them to show everyone how rich they were. 8)
Kakerate 05-13-05, 12:37 PM	1) In the sailing ships of the time around the American Revolution and the War of 1812, galley fires were set on large metal (usually iron) plates that were set on the upper deck near the side of the ship. This was so the fire could be quickly dumped overboard in case of bad weather or encountering an enemy. Fire was historically the great killer of wooden ships, which explains why the practice of firing heated shot was never a standard practice. The French experimented with the tactic during the Napoleonic wars, but abandoned the idea after several of their ships managed to set themselves on fire. Plus, the idea of a stray round into the fire being used to heat the shot did not bear contemplation. Similarly, something that got into the alchemist's fire stored on your vessel as ammunition would have unpleasant consequences. If you're going to store something so potentially dangerous on board, put it in a Bag of Holding if you have one. If the bag is destroyed, you just lose what is in it, not the ship. Brilliant! Using bags of holding is a great way to transport the Alchemists fire! As soon as I get the money for the Alchemists fire and the catapult, I'll invest in bags of holding to carry the alchemists fire. I just remembered that Arcane magic is non-existant on this world. I'll just use the psionic equivelant. Is their a psionic equivilant?? Wait! Clerics can make them..Whew! 2) Your ship would probably have at least 3 boats: a launch about 24 feet long, with it's own mast, a cutter similarly outfitted, maybe 20-22 feet long, and a third boat maybe 16-18 feet long. These would be nested in each other between the masts. Remember all the things you are going to have to use ships' boats for: hauling provisions, boarding parties, and repair work on the hull of your ship, just to name a few. I'll have my own building and dock by the sea/river so I can do repairs there. I have no idea how to repair a breach in my ship though. I remember that clay was used along time ago, but I am not sure how they used it to fix cracks in the hull. I plan on just running my ship into some shallow water with iron braces built underwater to support my ship.(Yes the iron will rust but I only need it for like 3 weeks) then making a **** and pumping the water out. Then I make repairs. I figure the small 2 seater boats can carry 1 man and 1 medium sized object. That will be sufficient. I will dock and use a crane to lift the cargo out from below deck, no problem. Thanks for the advice, I never even considered having another ship! I guess I was thinking one was too much! 4) Chain pumps were fairly standard in the age of sail, and were basically the type of pump you'd find at a town well writ large. A ship the size of yours would have one, but certainly no more than two. I'll have to put that into my design! I should have my ships graph paper up by 5:00 today. I really need more info like this. Thanks. 5) Weapons availability will be determined by the space on your ship. Remember a famous saying by John Paul Jones on taking command of the Bonhomme Richard: "If we do not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have." 6) You must be planning on providing your crew with luxurious living. A Royal Navy brig-of-war circa 1812, about equivalent in size to your vessel, would have a crew of well over a hundred. Eighteen and a half inches by six feet per man for hammock space (by regulation.) Also note that by American standards the ship was undermanned. Maybe, but I dont plan on sailing through the night like they could(I'll just drop anchor just off the coast) , because they had a compass, and maps with longitude and latitude, so they stood little to no threat of getting lost or running aground. I'll be stuck in the stone age of sailing. I wont even have accurate maps. Sailing at night is just too risky. I dont have any cannons onboard, so that saves me space. The celing is 7 and 1/2 feet high, too roomy(maybe)? Also, do you see how many sails that british thing has! Jeeze! I only have one square riged sail. I admit I'm leaving the ship a bit roomy. Each crew member gets his own cot/hammock, average 10ftX5ft living space(but no walls, all the 10ftX5ft spaces are in one big room, the middle deck, and no bunkbeads even. I get a room with 20 square feet of floor! Not Luxurious for my crew, but roomy. I figure they'll be the roudy type that needs lots of space. 7) See if you can get a contract with a merchant cartel. You should have plenty of hold space. Depending on the cargo you choose, your ship could pay for itself in a year or so. I still have to find something to trade. I hope the DM is nice about this or I could be in a world of hurt. 8) Take the standard expert rate for their level, then increase it by half. That should get them thinking. Also add prize money. Typically, the regular crew of a vessel would split a quarter of the value of any prize taken. When a British squadron captured a Spanish treasure fleet, some of the crew (ordinary seamen) bought gold watches and FRIED them to show everyone how rich they were. Prize money! Yes I have been thinking about that too. I hope I can lure them in with prize money, because with what little money I've got left they'll scoff at their wages. :( I may need another loan..."Hey Icepick about that money I owe ya.... :crazy: no I..I dont have it yet. Infact, I've come here to ask you for some more to tide me over untill I can pay you back! :D " That won't go over too well. I better put lots of ranks in diplomacy.
Kakerate 05-13-05, 02:37 PM	It apears that I have a boat that resembles a Carrack. Its characterized by the high decks and top-heavyness. Now these boats weren't used untill after gunpowder became available. Now for the strange part. Its not that my boat cant be made. I can have it built this way no problem. The problem isn't the price(actually the price is a problem, but Mr. Icepick is sure to wait patiently when I explain pirates sunk the ship I bought with his money, and it will take some time to repay my debt). The Problem: I obviously don't have the shipbuilding technology that made the Carrack usefull, its Sails. I have one sale, square, big, but never the less ineffective at going up wind. I can see it being angled diagonally allowing for upwind movement, but because its so hulking and slow I dont think up wind is an option. This ship is going to be a klunker. I forsee it going at 1 mile per hour, like for the keelboat, and thats only because of my massive sail! I figure I can put up with it. Every day I spend at sea is going to cost me, and with the slow speed of this thing, I wont get any real profit for awhile. I'll just have to hope Mr Icepick is a patient man. Other than that I figure this ship will cost 3000gp(keelboat price) + 2000gp for the mid, and lower decks which is what I appear to have added onto the design of an average keelboat. 5000gp + 400(lifeboats X 8) + crew + supplies = poor aristocrat :weep: . Oh and I'll end up with a lever that turns the ship, not a wheel. This is looking more and more like a bad business adventure. I'll have to get lucky to break even. Boy I hope D&D economics pulls through! And as for a catapult, does anyone know of a website with pictures and design specs for them? Oh and does anyone know how to get Java code to display a picture from a web document on a web page?
Thoronmir 05-13-05, 03:37 PM	For some reason I can’t view the ship’s image you attached to your first post. But I’ll try to add to what Twisted Puppy said. First, I should note that I don’t have all of Twisted Puppy’s knowledge of historical sailing, but I am an avid sailor and spend a lot of time on my boat. I suggest you try a smaller ship to start with. A simple fore-and-aft rigged vessel like a sloop or a ketch would accomplish much of what you need. You will be able to have the other PCs help man the ship, it won’t require a large group of NPCs to crew, it is maneuverable and easily navigated in coastal waters and open seas alike, it’s a lot less expensive than a large square-rig ship, and once you realize how to economize space there is ample cargo room. Arming such a ship might be difficult due to the placement of sails and rigging. No offense meant since I can tell you’re not a sailor, but I laughed out loud at your notion that a single-sail ship can’t run upwind with any speed. Instead of thinking of your sail as something that just catches the wind, think of it like a wing (only vertical instead of horizontal). Just as airplanes fly because of the pressure differential created by the wing, boats are powered by the movement of wind over the sail surface. Having crewed and/or captained all manner of craft (including a few square-rigged vessels), it’s easy to sail upwind … the hard part is sailing when there is no wind. Also, the “technology” of sails far pre-dates the time of large carracks. If the technology exists to construct such a large-hulled vessel, I assure you that the technology exists to stitch together canvas for the sails. And remember … any boat without a mast is a waste of fiberglass. ;)
Kakerate 05-13-05, 03:56 PM	For some reason I can’t view the ship’s image you attached to your first post. Once I scan my graph paper in you can see my specs for the ship layout. I suggest you try a smaller ship to start with. A simple fore-and-aft rigged vessel like a sloop or a ketch would accomplish much of what you need. You will be able to have the other PCs help man the ship, it won’t require a large group of NPCs to crew, it is maneuverable and easily navigated in coastal waters and open seas alike, it’s a lot less expensive than a large square-rig ship, and once you realize how to economize space there is ample cargo room. That is one Idea I had. I planned out how we could just camp out on land at night. I figured with a small ship we could do alot. But because we cant involve a small ship in the story(how many times does D&D take to the water over 4 sessions? maybe once). A big ship, capable of holding massive amounts of cargo + the capability to practically live on the ship itself causes the adventure to shift to the sea with 4 sessions that take to the water and maybe one session on land. See what I mean. It has to be big for it to be worth it. No offense meant since I can tell you’re not a sailor, but I laughed out loud at your notion that a single-sail ship can’t run upwind with any speed. Instead of thinking of your sail as something that just catches the wind, think of it like a wing (only vertical instead of horizontal). Just as airplanes fly because of the pressure differential created by the wing, boats are powered by the movement of wind over the sail surface. Having crewed and/or captained all manner of craft (including a few square-rigged vessels), it’s easy to sail upwind … the hard part is sailing when there is no wind. I understand how to sail upwind by angling the sail, but what I was thinking was that the sale was one of those square sails with a wooden beam at the top connected to the mast, and another connected to the bottom of the sail. I interperated the square sail to resemble a scroll that unrolls top to bottom with wood beams on the top and bottom. You know, the kind of sail that you have to lift the cloth and the beam at the bottom all the way to the top to put it up. I dont figure something like that is easily rigged to rotate the way it needs to inorder to travel upwind. I might be interpereting the description of the vessel wrong, but I remember the russians used square rigged sails for many years, and only after they learned from the dutch/germans I forget which, they were able to sail upwind. The way they rigged their sails made it take too long to adjust them so that upwind travel was possible. I'll finish later...my time is up.
Twisted Puppy 05-13-05, 04:36 PM	There are two types of rigs for sailing vessel: the traditional square rig (think of the USS Constituion or HMS Victory) and the fore-and-aft rigged vessel like a schooner (such as the USS Enterprise circa 1797.) A fore-and-aft rigged vessel can sail much "closer" to the wind than a square rigged ship. That is, both vessels can move upwind, but the fore-and aft rigged one can do so more quickly. Fore-and-aft rigged vessels have the advantages of being (usually) more maneuverable and requiring a generally smaller crew. The disadvantages are usually going to be less carrying capacity and a slightly lower speed running before (with) the wind. (Topsail schooners solved this by adding square-rigged topmasts.) A two-masted square-rigged merchant vessel (brig) usually had, in time of war, a crew of four to six officers (including the equivalent of NCOs) and a dozen hands. This left the vessel basically undermanned.
braindead345 05-14-05, 03:26 AM	A few pointers here, not really ship design related. 1) The crew is normally onboard 24/7. Is your 12 man crew going to be able to hanle the ship with only 1/3 or 1/2 on duty at a time? Even if you go ashore everynight, your crew will be too tired to post guards. You will need to figure a way to give the crew breaks and that usually means having more crew and rotating them. 2) I like the ballista, but the catapult might be overkill. Think more about angle and rates of fire rather than destructive capablities and issue the crew either crossbows or longbows. Either of these will can be fired up at airborne targets, which is very difficult to do with a catapult. Besides, volley fire can be much more effective than a single shot-it depends on what you are attacking. 3) Extra specialists I recommend having onboard: Navigator, helmsman and a carpenter/shipwright. These can be part of your already established crew, just make sure the DM knows they are on board. 4) Weather will become an important factor, have a plan for it. Have fun.
UltimateReality 05-14-05, 12:48 PM	HMMM so i forgot to log her off again..............................TPK;) Well lets go with the ship, and then we'll worry about the armiments. For a ship your size, as mentioned earilier, you'll need a crew of about 50-100. Also your looking at at lest 3 masts, with sails, to get any forward motion at all. basically the ship is too large for the one sail to provide enough power for. Kinda like trying to run a bull-dozer with a go-cart engine. What i would personally recomend would something like a Viking a long ship, simpler and easier to sail. Also with that type of sail rigging the is no boom at the bottom of the sail. Only one at the top, makes turning the sail easier. Also with this design you may wish to experiment with a missen. (smaller sail on the back, usually atatached the rutter, well technically it would be the yoke, but we'll leave that for the sea dogs to argue out.) As for putting a balista or a catapult on board, this would be extreemly difficult. First of all were is it going be placed? At the front; you should have the rigging for your jib sail/s. At the aft; gair enough, except it may be hard for the navigator to take a bearing, and the should also be rigging issues. That leaves the middle, but again room is going to be an issue as that is were the majourity of you rigging is. It is also were you'd luanch your smaller craft, and were 90% of everything on deck is. The catipult is a little more difficult as it tends to through objects up and over, and well you should have a lot of rigging above you. Trust me it would suck stupid lots if your payload of AF were to get cuaght in your own rigging after firing. Now as for turing a provit on this tub. Get contracts to ship goods across the seas. They aren't going to be yours, your just playing fed-ex, only you can jack the UPS agents, and steal thier cargo.
wordserpent 05-14-05, 01:23 PM	I would saythat your design is a bit complex for a simple keelboat. Remember that a Keelboat is a shallow draft vessel and would probably not have too many decks (i.e. levels) below the main weather deck. I think that you should upgrade your ship to: Sailing Ship. Also consider the forestay, that's the line that runs from your bow to the top of the mainmast. Having the catapault fire directy foreward might sever that line with the projectile and potentially de-mast your ship. Cant the Catapault t either side or better yet put the Catapault on the quarterdeck (stern castle) and two ballistae on the bow, port and starboard. For cooking purposes some ships had an eclosed metal oven called a camboose (the USS Constitution has one) that would restrict the spread of fires. A few pails of water can quickly douse any flames that get out of control...we hope. The crew members who were not officers commonly lived in the fo'csle (fore-castle) while officers lived in the cabin located at the stern of the ship. You may of course put your crew wherever you like.
Andrew_980 05-15-05, 03:01 PM	ya, i was about to say this souds like a sailing ship not a keelboat, pay its price and us its info for crew and whatnot. a ballista or 2 may not be too bad but catapults are too big and a trebuchet is just silly. it is possable to set up your ballista in the same manner as cannons in later ships, below deck and to the sides. that does limit your aiming however
CryoSilver 05-22-05, 11:32 AM	This boat... The main mast is too short and the bowsprit as well; for the height of the boat, it would need to be longer and with larger masts, bot to actually go and to avoid rolling. Also, if you're going to be using seige weapons, a deep keel or centerboard is a must. Just spaeking from my limited experiences with sailing on sharpies and small schooners though.