I need help outsmarting this guy! [Archive] - Wizards Community

I need help outsmarting this guy! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adre
12-10-05, 08:37 PM Okay,I'm relativately new to DnD,having only been playing over a year or so.Anyway,we've just started the campaign and only I and the cleric have met up so far.I'm a CN sorcress and he is a LE cleric of Vecna.We met like this:

We witnessed a man being murdered in front of the inn we're staying at.He searches the body and finds a letter he can't read aka the all-powerful plot device.The thing is the cleric is a jerk and since I happened to be the only magic-user in the area,he's threatened me into casting comprehending languages on the letter. My character does NOT like being bullied into anything but also thinks the letter can be useful later on. But I'm having trouble thinking of a way to get out of this with life intact and letter in hand.I can only think of two things.

1) Flare to the face,grab the letter,and run like hell

2) Actually decipher the letter and lie about what it says (and pray I roll high on bluff)

Do you guys have any ideas?
Talonz
12-10-05, 09:14 PM Do you have decipher languages? A sorceror has so few slots I'd be surprised if you do.

But anyways, #2 is the way to go in my books. You can always tell him part of the message, and keep a key part to yourself. No bluff required there.

How about #3? Inform the cleric coolly that your fee for casting the spell is 100gold (or whatever the standard price if for a 1st level spell, or whatever you feel like going with) and that if he persists in his threats you will report him to the authorities.

Make sure you're in a public place when you do that though. :)
Athanatos
12-10-05, 09:46 PM I'd suggest a mix of options 2 and 3. If he tries to intimidate you into deciphering it for free, give into the demand. He'll think that he's successfully intimidated you, and will probably be too cocky to realize that you're leaving out some key information. If he does give you the money... more power to you. Leave out the information anyway.
Nom
12-10-05, 09:51 PM It depends on whether you want to put up with inter-party conflict. If a potential adventuring companion starts throwing threats around from the word go, you're unlikely to be able to form a harmonious partnership.

Credibly playing "evil" characters as more than petty thugs actually takes quite a bit of finesse and maturity. It might be worth suggesting to the group that creating a "party" or "team" rather than a loose pack of feuding individuals will make for a more enjoyable game.
Gurv
12-10-05, 11:02 PM Is the cleric a PC or an NPC? Because if it's a PC, then I suggest finding a way to get along a little better. Or make characters that can.

If this is just an NPC you are dealing with, and there is no metagame reason you need to stick close to him, just refuse to do as he asks. You are not the one who needs him. He is the one who needs you.
Adre
12-10-05, 11:16 PM I actually do have comprehend languages. Option three has given me an idea though.You see he's recently gotten into trouble with the local authorities.I wonder how much reward money there is? And I can claim he stole the letter from me.Oh,sweet,sweet revenge.
Jovknee
12-10-05, 11:24 PM This is part of the reason why my DM's haven't allowed evil alignments. If he doesn't want to play as part of the group, then leave him. I've seen it happen where a person made up a character that wasn't wanting to be part of the group so the group left him.... kinda put in into the position to make a new character. I like your idea of reporting him to the athorities. :D
smoker
12-10-05, 11:40 PM I like your second option. And if you took that route and roleplayed it out very well, I think the DM should make it difficult for the other players to know you lied. I think the second option approach actually adds to your character's development. Of course, if the DM has you roll for bluff, then out of game, the other players in the game know you lied.

The DM should, instead, pass you a note saying what is on the letter. Your character should tell the players what your character thinks the other characters NEED to know. It's different to comprehend then it is to read. Now, you are not bluffing. You're just with holding information. This is the approach I would take as a player if I knew I had a good DM.

If the other players suspect something is up and want to sense motive, your motive is to keep the party alive. If you flat out lied and the information would lead you to the murderer, your motive remains the same. Your character's thought is that if you pursue this guy, your party and you could die. And you're character is a coward, so play up that weakness.

smoker
Far_Traveler
12-11-05, 10:12 PM my advice is simple.

Lie and say you cannot cast that spell, and it would probably take a duration of 3 months to be capable of invoking it
Feor
12-11-05, 11:48 PM Hehe, simple here, you're neutral and chaotic, threaten him right back.

Being Evil you can easily as as much disregard for his well being as he has for yours.

Being Chaotic you don't neccissarily have to worry about the local authorities. Being Lawful he's alot less likely to simply attack you out on the street.

If he persists, threaten to cast erase on the letter. (even if you don't have teh spell, he shouldn't know that in character) If he still persists threaten him with erase AND detect thoughts (if he's a Cleric of Vecna someone rifling through his mind should be the scariest thing he can think of, and he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels)

THEN, once you have him shaken, tell him that you might help him to read the letter. Of course, if there were any actual important information in it, you'd expect to recieve a share of whatever rewards might be reaped. :D
Kirtanus_Albacron
12-13-05, 10:29 PM Well, you could demand the letter as payment, and then give him almost no information. Then you would make yourself needed to him, so he won't stab you in the back later.
Cayl
12-22-05, 11:35 PM I happened to be the only magic-user in the area,

Leave the area.
Cayl
12-22-05, 11:38 PM (he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels)

You mean like an untrained DC 12 Knowledge Arcana check?
Doopliss
12-22-05, 11:50 PM wait, does the cleric know your level? I don't see how he would...
Dichotomy
12-23-05, 12:16 AM You mean like an untrained DC 12 Knowledge Arcana check?
Precisely. Because,An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).If he doesn't have Knowledge (arcana), he CAN'T know what level the spell is.

And, even if he DOES have that knowledge, only through metagaming could he ever know that the sorc isn't high enough level to cast it.
Demonfey
12-23-05, 12:37 AM Hehe, simple here, you're neutral and chaotic, threaten him right back.

Being Evil you can easily as as much disregard for his well being as he has for yours.

Being Chaotic you don't neccissarily have to worry about the local authorities. Being Lawful he's alot less likely to simply attack you out on the street.

If he persists, threaten to cast erase on the letter. (even if you don't have teh spell, he shouldn't know that in character) If he still persists threaten him with erase AND detect thoughts (if he's a Cleric of Vecna someone rifling through his mind should be the scariest thing he can think of, and he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels)

THEN, once you have him shaken, tell him that you might help him to read the letter. Of course, if there were any actual important information in it, you'd expect to recieve a share of whatever rewards might be reaped. :D
Oh, I like this. Feor, you have just the type of potentially devious mind that I enjoy finding.
Always-Late
12-23-05, 03:34 AM Say, "I haven't got that in my spellbook."
Illithid13
12-23-05, 02:28 PM I'd reply that your fee for such a service is a drink at the tavern. Then when you get your drink, mull over the letter for a very, very long time. Inform him that it is a difficult dialect (don't tell him that you have the spell, but the language is familiar to you) and will take you excessive amounts of time and sugest that he gets himself a drink. Every time he says "so what's it say," tell him "I've almost gotten it down, but there is a part with (insert some random crazyness here that will make absolutly no sense) or (insert something having to do with certin death if something is/isn't done) so maybe you should get yourself another drink." keep doing this until he passes out, tie him up in your room and then tell him to never try to bully you around again. Hand him the paper and tell him that it's a recipe for beef stew, and you'll be waiting downstairs at the bar when he wants to appologize for the true meaning of the scroll.
Aldarionn
12-23-05, 06:41 PM I'd reply that your fee for such a service is a drink at the tavern. Then when you get your drink, mull over the letter for a very, very long time. Inform him that it is a difficult dialect (don't tell him that you have the spell, but the language is familiar to you) and will take you excessive amounts of time and sugest that he gets himself a drink. Every time he says "so what's it say," tell him "I've almost gotten it down, but there is a part with (insert some random crazyness here that will make absolutly no sense) or (insert something having to do with certin death if something is/isn't done) so maybe you should get yourself another drink." keep doing this until he passes out, tie him up in your room and then tell him to never try to bully you around again. Hand him the paper and tell him that it's a recipe for beef stew, and you'll be waiting downstairs at the bar when he wants to appologize for the true meaning of the scroll.

Hehe, I like this idea the best of all the ones I've seen. It fts the situation best, and could make for soem very interesting role playing.

Aldarionn
tharivol266
12-23-05, 07:23 PM say that you need time alone to decipher it and that you'll transcribe it into common when you're done. go into a private room and read it and transcribe it into a language you know but he doesnt(like draconic or something) and write a copy in common ecept leave out alot of stuff(say its like chinese spoken to english spoken[ie 25000 syllables to 1]) or give him a recipie for beef stew and burn the original
celtredleg
12-24-05, 02:50 PM .Probably the first thing to do is decide if this is the type of thing you want to put up with for the rest of the game. The first thing right out of the gate is to get threatened does not sound like a long fun game in the offing.

Next, decide, can he really take you?? If you dont have a spel to take him out, bluff until you get a chance to run, then do so. If you can take him, do it fast and first.
Jodjod
12-24-05, 04:43 PM #2 Is the way to go, in my opinion. I'm just wondering the player will be able to stay IC if he knows that his character is being lied to? If you're quite blatantly rolling for a bluff check you'd better hope that he doesn't meta-it...
Milburn
12-25-05, 09:07 AM Hmmmm... so there are two characters and they have already fallen out. It is usually best to create characters that are going to get along, and avoid evil almost entirley.

Don't outsmart him, just don't adventure with him. A few magic missiles should sort him out. If your DM is allowing him to play an evil character, then they will not mind you killing him.
Gworraent
12-25-05, 10:07 AM ask for money, then do the whole get him drunk thing and tie him up. or mebbe make a scroll of hold person or charm person while your at it and turn him into the police
BardicEvil
12-25-05, 07:47 PM How you handle this is definitely going to set the tone for much of the rest of your adventuring relationship with that PC.

IC, your character may not know that, but then again, if your PC doesn't like being bullied, don't let them take it because this is a fellow PC and it's a plot point (metagaming).

If you want instant party disintegration, here's a simle trick. Act cowed and promise to cast the spell on him. THen cast charm person instead. When he points out that he gets a Will roll, ask him if he was expecting to make a will roll against the beneficial spell. Unless he's metagaming, and your DM is playing to this guy's side, he can't make a valid argument unless he makes a spellcraft check to recognize the spell.

One of a few things is going to happen:
1) The GM caves and gives him a save (consider a new GM)
2) He makes his spellcraft and tries to retaliate (when the authorities arrive, who will they believe? Some random sorceror, or a cleric of Vecna that is a known troublemaker?)
3) He misses the spellcraft and thus now thinks you're his best friend. Tell him that you hate it when people try to bully you. Unless he's a metagamer with bad RP skills, you should be able to get a drink and the letter by way of apology.

Most GMs don't allow evil PCs because they either don't know how to handle it, or they've never seen it done well. A well played evil character doesn't have to be a thug. Be the voice of reason and try to step into the role of party leader, especially with a good bluff. Having a party of good adventurers let's you get powerful quickly and divert suspicion. What more could an evil PC want to propel their way to Epic or Ascension to Divinity? Just remember to always act nice where anyone can see you, well anyone who isn't about to die anyway. :evillaugh
danielinthewolvesden
12-25-05, 08:38 PM This could well be a Player problem, not a Character problem. Talk with your DM.

Your DM really should do something better for party cohesiveness.
Andorxor
12-26-05, 01:59 AM Destroy the plot hook and do it in a way that the cleric can't protest.You have no ingame reason to be involved in a random murder.Why should you try to keep the letter if it only means problems with the cleric,the guard and the murderer for you?

Say "I offer this secret to Vecna" and than sacrifice the letter.
Shaggy_Shaggs
12-26-05, 10:25 AM Is he wearing medium or heavy armor?

If so, you could always try reading the thing (silently, in case the info is useful to you), then go "Here's what it says," take a breath as if about to recite a long passage, then run like heck for the nearest guard post since your land speed should be better than his due to the armor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adre 12-10-05, 08:37 PM	Okay,I'm relativately new to DnD,having only been playing over a year or so.Anyway,we've just started the campaign and only I and the cleric have met up so far.I'm a CN sorcress and he is a LE cleric of Vecna.We met like this: We witnessed a man being murdered in front of the inn we're staying at.He searches the body and finds a letter he can't read aka the all-powerful plot device.The thing is the cleric is a jerk and since I happened to be the only magic-user in the area,he's threatened me into casting comprehending languages on the letter. My character does NOT like being bullied into anything but also thinks the letter can be useful later on. But I'm having trouble thinking of a way to get out of this with life intact and letter in hand.I can only think of two things. 1) Flare to the face,grab the letter,and run like hell 2) Actually decipher the letter and lie about what it says (and pray I roll high on bluff) Do you guys have any ideas?
Talonz 12-10-05, 09:14 PM	Do you have decipher languages? A sorceror has so few slots I'd be surprised if you do. But anyways, #2 is the way to go in my books. You can always tell him part of the message, and keep a key part to yourself. No bluff required there. How about #3? Inform the cleric coolly that your fee for casting the spell is 100gold (or whatever the standard price if for a 1st level spell, or whatever you feel like going with) and that if he persists in his threats you will report him to the authorities. Make sure you're in a public place when you do that though. :)
Athanatos 12-10-05, 09:46 PM	I'd suggest a mix of options 2 and 3. If he tries to intimidate you into deciphering it for free, give into the demand. He'll think that he's successfully intimidated you, and will probably be too cocky to realize that you're leaving out some key information. If he does give you the money... more power to you. Leave out the information anyway.
Nom 12-10-05, 09:51 PM	It depends on whether you want to put up with inter-party conflict. If a potential adventuring companion starts throwing threats around from the word go, you're unlikely to be able to form a harmonious partnership. Credibly playing "evil" characters as more than petty thugs actually takes quite a bit of finesse and maturity. It might be worth suggesting to the group that creating a "party" or "team" rather than a loose pack of feuding individuals will make for a more enjoyable game.
Gurv 12-10-05, 11:02 PM	Is the cleric a PC or an NPC? Because if it's a PC, then I suggest finding a way to get along a little better. Or make characters that can. If this is just an NPC you are dealing with, and there is no metagame reason you need to stick close to him, just refuse to do as he asks. You are not the one who needs him. He is the one who needs you.
Adre 12-10-05, 11:16 PM	I actually do have comprehend languages. Option three has given me an idea though.You see he's recently gotten into trouble with the local authorities.I wonder how much reward money there is? And I can claim he stole the letter from me.Oh,sweet,sweet revenge.
Jovknee 12-10-05, 11:24 PM	This is part of the reason why my DM's haven't allowed evil alignments. If he doesn't want to play as part of the group, then leave him. I've seen it happen where a person made up a character that wasn't wanting to be part of the group so the group left him.... kinda put in into the position to make a new character. I like your idea of reporting him to the athorities. :D
smoker 12-10-05, 11:40 PM	I like your second option. And if you took that route and roleplayed it out very well, I think the DM should make it difficult for the other players to know you lied. I think the second option approach actually adds to your character's development. Of course, if the DM has you roll for bluff, then out of game, the other players in the game know you lied. The DM should, instead, pass you a note saying what is on the letter. Your character should tell the players what your character thinks the other characters NEED to know. It's different to comprehend then it is to read. Now, you are not bluffing. You're just with holding information. This is the approach I would take as a player if I knew I had a good DM. If the other players suspect something is up and want to sense motive, your motive is to keep the party alive. If you flat out lied and the information would lead you to the murderer, your motive remains the same. Your character's thought is that if you pursue this guy, your party and you could die. And you're character is a coward, so play up that weakness. smoker
Far_Traveler 12-11-05, 10:12 PM	my advice is simple. Lie and say you cannot cast that spell, and it would probably take a duration of 3 months to be capable of invoking it
Feor 12-11-05, 11:48 PM	Hehe, simple here, you're neutral and chaotic, threaten him right back. Being Evil you can easily as as much disregard for his well being as he has for yours. Being Chaotic you don't neccissarily have to worry about the local authorities. Being Lawful he's alot less likely to simply attack you out on the street. If he persists, threaten to cast erase on the letter. (even if you don't have teh spell, he shouldn't know that in character) If he still persists threaten him with erase AND detect thoughts (if he's a Cleric of Vecna someone rifling through his mind should be the scariest thing he can think of, and he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels) THEN, once you have him shaken, tell him that you might help him to read the letter. Of course, if there were any actual important information in it, you'd expect to recieve a share of whatever rewards might be reaped. :D
Kirtanus_Albacron 12-13-05, 10:29 PM	Well, you could demand the letter as payment, and then give him almost no information. Then you would make yourself needed to him, so he won't stab you in the back later.
Cayl 12-22-05, 11:35 PM	I happened to be the only magic-user in the area, Leave the area.
Cayl 12-22-05, 11:38 PM	(he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels) You mean like an untrained DC 12 Knowledge Arcana check?
Doopliss 12-22-05, 11:50 PM	wait, does the cleric know your level? I don't see how he would...
Dichotomy 12-23-05, 12:16 AM	You mean like an untrained DC 12 Knowledge Arcana check? Precisely. Because,An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).If he doesn't have Knowledge (arcana), he CAN'T know what level the spell is. And, even if he DOES have that knowledge, only through metagaming could he ever know that the sorc isn't high enough level to cast it.
Demonfey 12-23-05, 12:37 AM	Hehe, simple here, you're neutral and chaotic, threaten him right back. Being Evil you can easily as as much disregard for his well being as he has for yours. Being Chaotic you don't neccissarily have to worry about the local authorities. Being Lawful he's alot less likely to simply attack you out on the street. If he persists, threaten to cast erase on the letter. (even if you don't have teh spell, he shouldn't know that in character) If he still persists threaten him with erase AND detect thoughts (if he's a Cleric of Vecna someone rifling through his mind should be the scariest thing he can think of, and he shouldn't have any way in-character of knowing you can't cast it for another 3 levels) THEN, once you have him shaken, tell him that you might help him to read the letter. Of course, if there were any actual important information in it, you'd expect to recieve a share of whatever rewards might be reaped. :D Oh, I like this. Feor, you have just the type of potentially devious mind that I enjoy finding.
Always-Late 12-23-05, 03:34 AM	Say, "I haven't got that in my spellbook."
Illithid13 12-23-05, 02:28 PM	I'd reply that your fee for such a service is a drink at the tavern. Then when you get your drink, mull over the letter for a very, very long time. Inform him that it is a difficult dialect (don't tell him that you have the spell, but the language is familiar to you) and will take you excessive amounts of time and sugest that he gets himself a drink. Every time he says "so what's it say," tell him "I've almost gotten it down, but there is a part with (insert some random crazyness here that will make absolutly no sense) or (insert something having to do with certin death if something is/isn't done) so maybe you should get yourself another drink." keep doing this until he passes out, tie him up in your room and then tell him to never try to bully you around again. Hand him the paper and tell him that it's a recipe for beef stew, and you'll be waiting downstairs at the bar when he wants to appologize for the true meaning of the scroll.
Aldarionn 12-23-05, 06:41 PM	I'd reply that your fee for such a service is a drink at the tavern. Then when you get your drink, mull over the letter for a very, very long time. Inform him that it is a difficult dialect (don't tell him that you have the spell, but the language is familiar to you) and will take you excessive amounts of time and sugest that he gets himself a drink. Every time he says "so what's it say," tell him "I've almost gotten it down, but there is a part with (insert some random crazyness here that will make absolutly no sense) or (insert something having to do with certin death if something is/isn't done) so maybe you should get yourself another drink." keep doing this until he passes out, tie him up in your room and then tell him to never try to bully you around again. Hand him the paper and tell him that it's a recipe for beef stew, and you'll be waiting downstairs at the bar when he wants to appologize for the true meaning of the scroll. Hehe, I like this idea the best of all the ones I've seen. It fts the situation best, and could make for soem very interesting role playing. Aldarionn
tharivol266 12-23-05, 07:23 PM	say that you need time alone to decipher it and that you'll transcribe it into common when you're done. go into a private room and read it and transcribe it into a language you know but he doesnt(like draconic or something) and write a copy in common ecept leave out alot of stuff(say its like chinese spoken to english spoken[ie 25000 syllables to 1]) or give him a recipie for beef stew and burn the original
celtredleg 12-24-05, 02:50 PM	.Probably the first thing to do is decide if this is the type of thing you want to put up with for the rest of the game. The first thing right out of the gate is to get threatened does not sound like a long fun game in the offing. Next, decide, can he really take you?? If you dont have a spel to take him out, bluff until you get a chance to run, then do so. If you can take him, do it fast and first.
Jodjod 12-24-05, 04:43 PM	#2 Is the way to go, in my opinion. I'm just wondering the player will be able to stay IC if he knows that his character is being lied to? If you're quite blatantly rolling for a bluff check you'd better hope that he doesn't meta-it...
Milburn 12-25-05, 09:07 AM	Hmmmm... so there are two characters and they have already fallen out. It is usually best to create characters that are going to get along, and avoid evil almost entirley. Don't outsmart him, just don't adventure with him. A few magic missiles should sort him out. If your DM is allowing him to play an evil character, then they will not mind you killing him.
Gworraent 12-25-05, 10:07 AM	ask for money, then do the whole get him drunk thing and tie him up. or mebbe make a scroll of hold person or charm person while your at it and turn him into the police
BardicEvil 12-25-05, 07:47 PM	How you handle this is definitely going to set the tone for much of the rest of your adventuring relationship with that PC. IC, your character may not know that, but then again, if your PC doesn't like being bullied, don't let them take it because this is a fellow PC and it's a plot point (metagaming). If you want instant party disintegration, here's a simle trick. Act cowed and promise to cast the spell on him. THen cast charm person instead. When he points out that he gets a Will roll, ask him if he was expecting to make a will roll against the beneficial spell. Unless he's metagaming, and your DM is playing to this guy's side, he can't make a valid argument unless he makes a spellcraft check to recognize the spell. One of a few things is going to happen: 1) The GM caves and gives him a save (consider a new GM) 2) He makes his spellcraft and tries to retaliate (when the authorities arrive, who will they believe? Some random sorceror, or a cleric of Vecna that is a known troublemaker?) 3) He misses the spellcraft and thus now thinks you're his best friend. Tell him that you hate it when people try to bully you. Unless he's a metagamer with bad RP skills, you should be able to get a drink and the letter by way of apology. Most GMs don't allow evil PCs because they either don't know how to handle it, or they've never seen it done well. A well played evil character doesn't have to be a thug. Be the voice of reason and try to step into the role of party leader, especially with a good bluff. Having a party of good adventurers let's you get powerful quickly and divert suspicion. What more could an evil PC want to propel their way to Epic or Ascension to Divinity? Just remember to always act nice where anyone can see you, well anyone who isn't about to die anyway. :evillaugh
danielinthewolvesden 12-25-05, 08:38 PM	This could well be a Player problem, not a Character problem. Talk with your DM. Your DM really should do something better for party cohesiveness.
Andorxor 12-26-05, 01:59 AM	Destroy the plot hook and do it in a way that the cleric can't protest.You have no ingame reason to be involved in a random murder.Why should you try to keep the letter if it only means problems with the cleric,the guard and the murderer for you? Say "I offer this secret to Vecna" and than sacrifice the letter.
Shaggy_Shaggs 12-26-05, 10:25 AM	Is he wearing medium or heavy armor? If so, you could always try reading the thing (silently, in case the info is useful to you), then go "Here's what it says," take a breath as if about to recite a long passage, then run like heck for the nearest guard post since your land speed should be better than his due to the armor.