Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 04:58 PM	Okay, where do I begin? I have been having some troubles with my DM. These are, namely, several nerfs. Now, ordinarily, I would try to fix this myself in some manner, if not for one thing. THE CAMPAIGN HASN'T EVEN STRATED YET!!! Let me explain about the series of nerfs, before I request a solution. The first nerf was sort of... indirect. I wanted to be a psionic character, but they said there would be few or no psionic encounters, even if I was psionic. I dropped this in favor of the Player's Handbook, i.e. base classes. I was going to be a druid, until I remembered that we had a druid in the party, already. SO then I was going to be a rogue/ hoardstealer from Draconomicon. After I make the character, because the DM never said that I couldn't use Droconomicon, the DM tells me, "No Chapter 3 of Draconomicon." So I said, "Okay," and left it at that. I rebuilt my rogue, and then got the Player's Handbook 2. I looked through it, and decided to be a Dragon Shaman, and, again, after I made the character, my DM said, "No Player's Handbook 2." I'm really irate now. The DM never said anything at all about Draconomicon or the PH2 until after I decided to use them. I can't help but think I'm being nerfed on purpose, and I am considering finding a new group, or at least a new DM, but the guys in my current group are my friends, and I don't want to lose that friendship over D&D. What should I do?
Cifer 07-15-06, 05:18 PM	Ask your DM what books are banned and what books are allowed?
TheChilliGod 07-15-06, 05:27 PM	Get a big piece of paper. Lined paper. Shove the piece of paper in the DM's face and tell him to, right now, make a list of everything he will allow. Explain to him, if you feel it necessary, that you are obviously feeling rather peeved that your character concepts are being shot down one by one because you do not know what is actually available for use in this campaign, and that you will be able to safely and confidently make a character for his campaign (which you really want to play in, by the way) if you had an idea of the boundaries set. When he gives you the list, use it to make a character. If the DM suddenly decides to disallow anything that he was going to allow, you know for certain that he's doing it on purpose. Most likely because he fears that you will make a character with some sort of talent that he will not be able to deal with (there are a lot of... surprising abilities available to those that can find it), or because he fears you as a powergamer. Work with the DM at this point, to make a character that you both will be satisfied in creating. And, if the DM simply decided "No PHB2" right after you spent so much money on buying it; that's really not cool for a DM to do. Hope you can get a refund or something. Furthermore, if the DM allows something for another player that he disallowed for you, I would walk straight out of that game, probably shooting the DM in the face with a hammer along the way.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 05:33 PM	Cifer: An idea worthy of consideration, but just not good enough. I can just see nerfs in the campaign when the DM isn't well enough informed of current rules, and doesn't like what I'm trying to do. That is, have fun with my character. I asked him why we couldn't use Draconomicon, and he said something like this, "I don't like you being dragon things." That was all. No explanation for why, no reason to not like it, just, "No, you can't use it." Also, he started us in an 8th level campaign with a 10,000 gold deficit. He says there's a reason behind that, but I just don't know. TheChilliGod: I like your idea, and that is exactly what he did in regards to the PH2. Honestly, I think he does fear me, because of what he thinks I'm capable of. I just wish that he would let me try some of the stuff I'm trying to do. When I asked him why he wouldn't allow the PH2, he said something to the effect of, "Because I don't know what it is." That was it. No, "I'll try to understand as we play," or, "Let me look at what your considering before I let it in." None of that, just, "No, you can't use it." And I have already rigged up a Hammer-gun, just in case.
Kaneohe 07-15-06, 05:37 PM	Okay, well, let's begin. First, I have to ask: has your DM read through these books enough to get a basic grasp of the material within - and thus decide if it is suitable for what he has in mind? If not, then it probably seems to him like you just sprang this on him. In this case, his first thought was "It's probably a broken, munchkin class he's trying to pull." I can't vouch for the classes you mention; I don't own those books. I assume that you were being fair here in respect to your DM's ideas - if you were, in fact, trying to make a supercharacter, then I'd say it's within his rights to bar that from you. It doesn't sound like that's your intent, but I can't be entirely sure - just a precaution, you understand. If he knew the material, then it's on to the next question: Are you informing your DM of what [non-core] books you plan to use before you create a character (assuming he has read them)? Or, failing that, did he watch you consult them during character creation? Again, he may feel that you're trying to corner him. (Note: If, before character creation, he gave you guidelines on what books to read, then proceed to the conclusion below.) If he knew you were using them before you presented your completed character, then: He is nerfing you. The most likely reason is that he considers your character to be too powerful for his taste and, rather than point this out, has decided to simply create an arbitrary blanket restriction. If THAT isn't the case, I would submit that you leave the group - there could be any number of reasons why he shoots down character after character, and none of them bode well for your enjoyment of the game. Just my 2gp.
tizonacampeador 07-15-06, 05:42 PM	Is your DM familiar with those books? If not he could be leery of you using material he's unfamiliar with. There also may be campaign details that could be hurt by a dragon focuesed character. If you guys are going to be working for dragons for example. It might be a good idea not to get eaten.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 05:43 PM	Kaneohe: Thanks for the info. I never really consulted him on what books are or are not allowed, but if he has a problem with my use of them, he should justify it to me, not just say something like, "I don't know what it is, so I won't look at it, I'll just ban it." And I'm sure he's nerfing me about Draconomicon, considering that I let him and one of his friends borrow it for 3-4 weeks. tizonacampeadore: As I stated, he is familiar with Draconomicon, and do you know what the dragon shaman is? It's a base class that basically worships dragons, and aspires to take on their qualities for power. There should be no problem if we're gonna be working for dragons.
Dragonsblood 07-15-06, 05:47 PM	He's not nerfing anything. He's dissallowing suppliments he doesn't like. DMs are well within their rights to do that. Instead of coming up with characters from suppliments, either make a core character (psionics doesn't count, I don't care if it's in the SRD), or ask AHEAD OF TIME what suppliments the DM is using.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 05:53 PM	Dragonsblood: I assure you, he's nerfing something. He doesn't even bother to try to understand whatever supplement I bring to the table, he just bars it. For instance, on the PH2, he said something like this, "I don't know what it is, so we won't use it this campaign." Nothing like a, "Here, let me look at it." Just a flat out, "I don't know what it is, so no." BTW, the most recent book he has is a DMG from 2.0.
Bob Loblaw 07-15-06, 06:10 PM	I'm a little confused. Are you saying that your DM is running a 3.5 campaign with 2nd edition stuff? That's what it sounds like. As for nerfing things because he doesn't like it, that's well within his rights. He doesn't need to justify anything. I disallow drow, kender, and evil from my games. There is no discussion about it with the players. If they really want to play any of those, then they can find a DM who will allow it. I don't have to justify my decision. Now, if I make a claim as to why, then I should be able to support my position with valid arguments. Your DM sounds like he doesn't really want a discussion about it. That's his prerogative. He does need to tell you exactly what he will and will not allow. He has disallowed draconic characters in all forms. He has disallowed the PHB2. He has disallowed psionics. He wants you to start with a deficit of 10,000 gp (and no, he doesn't need to explain it as it's probably part of the mystery of the game). Your DM doesn't need to learn the rules as he goes if he doesn't want to. There are plenty of reasons for this. Perhaps he actually has other things going on in his life and he doesn't have the time he feels he needs to understand things. Maybe he doesn't want to be blindsided with a new rule that a player yanks out of his fourth point of contact (for you non-airborne, that's his butt). Whatever his reasons, they are good enough. As for not being able to use a book that you purchased, too bad. The DM is not required to allow all the books at the table. You can use it for ideas. You can use it games you run or other games you play in. Maybe you'll even be able to use it in this game later, when he does feel it is time to learn the new rules. Until then, suck it up. Perhaps the group needs to sit down and determine what books and rules will be used. I would get this in writing so that I don't forget as I work on my character. Maybe the DM is nerfing you, but so far all you've managed to convince me of is that your DM has different ideas of where he wants to game to go. Everyone needs to sit down and work it out.
kelvinaw273 07-15-06, 06:19 PM	Well, your DM saying you can't use a source book isn't 'nerfing' that's laying the groundrules. What I find surprising is that you used these books without first asking your DM if he was OK about using them. There may be good reasons for this - Draconomicon is only great if you want to oinvolve dragons. Maybe this is a dragonless campaign, and he does not want to let you know this at the outset? As for the PHBII, it's new, he may not yet have his own copy yet ,or may not like the contents. Quite simply, if you feel the need to use extra material, find out in advance what your DM will and will not allow. It is remiss of him not to have told you yet, but that's his only fault so far that I can see.
Fraser1986 07-15-06, 06:26 PM	While it would have been wise of him to tell you what he was and wasnt allowing beforehand, it's hardly unreasonable of him not to allow material from sources he is unfamiliar with. After all, if he hasn't read the PH2 he has no idea which of it is or isn't suitable for his campaign, so it is safer to rule it out. Note, this doesn't mean that he is veto-ing these supplements because he things you want to use some sneaky uber power (of doom). It could simply be that if he doesn't fully understand the mechanics of your class it will be difficult for him to create interesting and fun challenges for you. So perhaps you should give him the benifit of the doubt and play a class he is more familiar with. If you want my advice, Clerics are underrrated (in terms of fun, ive heard stories super powerful clerics but that's taking things too far). I've always liked the idea of a cleric who things of himself as more of a divine warrior, and takes all his spells as buffs, which he casts on himself then charges in.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 06:29 PM	Okay, I will lay these two things flat. 1. He has already decided and anounced the inclusion of dragons in the campaign. 2. He DOES NOT KNOW THE CONTENTS OF THE PH2 AND SHOULD NOT BE MAKING CALLS UNIFORMED.
anarco_rata 07-15-06, 06:57 PM	2. He DOES NOT KNOW THE CONTENTS OF THE PH2 Then he's right, and shouldn't accept it in his game without having read it first. That's not nerfing, and it's completely valid. If the DM tells you that you can't play anything outside core, then you have to deal with him. Just ask him what book can you use, and ask him if the character concept is valid before you do anything. It sounds to me that you're going to have to use core only.
Bob Loblaw 07-15-06, 07:14 PM	From what you have said, he is not making calls uninformed. You said: For instance, on the PH2, he said something like this, "I don't know what it is, so we won't use it this campaign." Nothing like a, "Here, let me look at it." Just a flat out, "I don't know what it is, so no." He has made no claims to its quality or on why it won't work for his campaign. He has simply said, "no." He has decided that he does not wish to learn about it at this time. That's too bad. Here's the deal, he is the one who actually has to understand how all the rules work in the game. If he doesn't feel that he can, then you should support him. As a player, you do not need to understand all the rules. You can choose to take the time on whatever rules matter to you at the time. He doesn't really have that choice. He needs to know about all the characters, not just one. As for already including dragons in the campaign, great. So now you know what you are dealing with. Guess what, that doesn't mean that you get to play one, or something related to one. When I ran a campaign where the Blood War had spilled onto the material plane, the players did not get to play half-demons or evil characters. That's just the way it is. Make something else that fits into the game. You have an incredible amount of choices available without including the Draconomicon, Expanded Psionic Handbook, and Player's Handbook 2. Even if restricted just to the Player's Handbook, you still have plenty of choices. There is no reason why you can't build a character that fits your concept with what's available. Let's look at the rogue/dragon shaman you wanted to play. Rogue, no problem. We just need to work on the dragon shaman part. What did you want out of the class? Many of the special abilities can simply be part of another class. Totem Dragon: You can pick whatever you want. This is only going to guide the rest of your choices. Draconic Auras: Use spells and feats to mimic these. Skill Focus: You can just take the feat, or use magic items/spells to improve these skills Draconic Adaptation: Every one of these can be gained through a spell/feat/magic item. Breath Weapon: Not really all that great, but if you really need it, then use a spell to simulate this. Ask your DM if you can change a spell's description (not statistics) to mimic this. Touch of Vitality: Healing spells work just fine for this. Natural Armor: Rather insignificant, but you can simulate this with spells as well. If it were me, I would consider playing a rogue/cleric or rogue/druid. Maybe he will let you use some of the variants from Unearthed Arcana. Here is one of the druid variants, without wildshape (which is one of the more powerful abilities): The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter. Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger). Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions). The Unearthed Arcana allows a wizard to give up his familiar for an animal companion. Maybe you can do the opposite. It would give you Skill Focus (essentially). So, a rogue 4/druid 4: BAB: +6 Fort: +5 Ref: +5 Will: +5 Ave HP: 34.5+Con or 35.5+Con Special Abilities: Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Wis bonus to AC, Fast Movement (+10 ft), Favored Enemy (maybe you can take a favored terrain also from Unearthed Arcana), Track. Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge Maybe you can give up Wild Shape for the Aspect of Nature from Unearthed Arcana. It may even give you more of what you wanted for abilities. Pick spells that would mimic the abilities you want. You will find a lot of them work just fine. Maybe change the names and appearances to match the flavor you want. For example, barkskin would become Dragon Hide and would make your skin scaly instead of woody. Get more creative. Work with your DM instead of against him. If he starts disallowing things from the PHB or not allowing you to make simple name changes, then you may have an argument. Until then, I don’t see much there.
ShadowDragon8685 07-15-06, 08:11 PM	There's only one option. You DM is being unreasonably restrictive. Therefor you must become unreasonably creative. He's worried about you making a broken powergaming monster with non-core material. So make a broken powergaming monster with core-only material. Go to your DM. Ask him exactly what books and material he will allow, and what the rules for creation are. Go to the CO boards. Give them that list of material, and ask for help making the most incredibly synergistic munchkin you can. Make Cleric-Zilla that never heals and focuses all his power on destroying everything and being invincible while doing so. Make a Gattling Chain Tripper. Make a Monk who can move a mile in a round and can run by, snatch the BBEG's prized weapon out of his hands, and be ten miles away by the time he notices. Make a Rogue who's quite literally invisible, and then OMGWTFBBQ's everything he touches. Or simply steals everything off the BBEG while he's not looking. Spellcasters - Spell Component Pouches = suck.
rayan4d2 07-15-06, 08:31 PM	Just a few things that I feel you should consider. You seem to have some preconception that your DM is supposed to allow you to use any material that you like or are informed with. A DM has a large quantity of material to incorporate into a game, a player has only a single character. Regardless of how long a DM has with a new book, be it weeks or years, does not mean that he likes, understands, or wants these things. I don't like to run new rules and options without extensive consideration, perhaps your DM lacks the time or perhaps he has enough things on his plate already and cannot devote what is required to allow your desires. Do the other players feel that he is being unfair to them as well? Perhaps you should run your character concepts by your DM first before committing to them. Remember, DMs get stressed by things too.
rayan4d2 07-15-06, 08:36 PM	He's worried about you making a broken powergaming monster with non-core material. Really, is that it, how can you be so sure? DMs have many things to deal with, your suggestion is not helpful, what it will serve to do is create more tension between the player and the DM. The two need to work together, not to butt heads.
Dolo 07-15-06, 08:54 PM	I hate to say this but your DM is right, if he dosen't know the material and how it fits into his game, it's his right not to use it. I also always go into a game and ask what they are using and what books they consider to be borderline or out. In the end he has to deal with what you are doing and the ramifications of it not you. Also if he says he is not using something, he does not have to justify himself at the gaming table. That is something that should be done outside of game, cause it can come off as you trying to ambush him and run something by the DM. Not saying you are, but I have seen enough endruns tried in many RPG's that it can come off as such to either him or others.
Dragonsblood 07-15-06, 09:06 PM	Dragonsblood: I assure you, he's nerfing something. He doesn't even bother to try to understand whatever supplement I bring to the table, he just bars it. For instance, on the PH2, he said something like this, "I don't know what it is, so we won't use it this campaign." Nothing like a, "Here, let me look at it." Just a flat out, "I don't know what it is, so no." BTW, the most recent book he has is a DMG from 2.0. No, I can assure you he's not. First of all you're twisting the meaning of "nerfing," but that's beside the point. You can't expect him to casually flip through a suppliment and understand the rules in it, and he probably doesn't want to invest a lot of time reading the book when the core 3 work fine for a fun game. Your DM is being perfectly reasonable.
ShadowDragon8685 07-15-06, 09:27 PM	There's only so many times you can play an elf wizard, a human rogue, a dwarf fighter, and a human Cleric before you're ready to throw in and say "This blows, I'm going back to playing Fable". You may say that the Core races and classes are just fine. Well, I'm sorry, they're not. Not for every concept. And you may say "But I can emulate other concepts by twisting class A, B, and C, and multiclassing like this". Yes, you can. I can also emulate a Bard with a Rogue by taking UMD, Perform, and buying magical instriments and a Wand of Bless. That dosen't make me a bard, it dosen't make me as good as a Bard at doing what a Bard does. (Okay, bad example.) You can also emulate a Cleric with a Rogue by taking UMD, Knowledge: Religion, a Wand of Bless and a Wand of CMW. You can even wear heavy armor and carry around a heavy mace. It does not make you a Cleric. It dosen't make you anywhere near a Cleric. Some ideas just cannot be done with the Core races and classes, at least not in a manner that lets you actually perform up to your expected power level. And THEN where is your precious Challenge Rating OMG DON'T TIP THE BALANCE? It's out the window, because while I'm trying to emulate a Bard with my Cleric or whatever, or emulate a Ninja with my Ftr/Rog/Ranger, or trying to emulate a Dragon Shaman with my Cleric/Sorc or whatever, I'm getting creamed. I'm sorry, but "Core Only" is only good to introduce new people to D&D. The rest of us are grownups, we can have the advanced options set to on, please thank you.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 09:35 PM	Actually, this worked itself out, in the end. I have no problem with not having Draconomicon, or Psionics. The PH2 was what put me over the edge. One way or another, I talked to the co-DM who knows almost all of the rules, and he talked to the over-blamming DM, and explained the book, that's PH2, and the class. As such, I thank you all for your suggestions, and I will remember this experience for furture reference. That being said, I am killing this topic, so good day to you all.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 09:37 PM	For the record, how do I kill this?
Dolo 07-15-06, 09:40 PM	ShadowDragon.....What the HECK was that Rant?!?! Dude a little Ritalin goes a long way, I say invest in some man. What you pointed out almost has nothng to do with the OP. 902, glad it worked out for you in the end. Just remember next time get the GR laid out, makes things easier in the end.
FeceMan 07-15-06, 09:41 PM	I am with the people saying that it's the DM's right to say "no X, Y, or Z". It's his game, it's his rules. However, I also sympathize with the OP--personally, I think the DM should take a look at the materials before just saying 'no'.
Fatalis_902 07-15-06, 09:49 PM	Feceman, you are my hero. That's what I was saying. It IS his game, so I can understand him not wanting random splat materials. But I firmly believe he should at least LOOK at what he's blamming, before just blamming it.
Comus 07-15-06, 09:59 PM	It's his game. If he wants to run Core-only, that's his choice. There's a lot of fun to be had using only Core classes and races, a near-infinite amount if you're willing to give different flavor to a class, change how you describe its special abilities, and so forth. The mechanical part of a character should always be secondary, because there are a lot of ways to approach it. The way a character is played, the concept behind it, that should be the first step. But, yeah, just ask the man what books he allows. If he doesn't want to have to learn how something works, that's his privilege. If something that's purely mechanical is so important to you, then I don't know what to say.