Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zhellblah 12-16-05, 06:15 PM	I'm a lvl 5 rogue/10 assassin, and I have a Rapier of Punctuing. If I wait the normal 3 rounds to make a death attack, and then attack with the Rapier of Puncturing, does the victim take the constitution damage before or after he/she makes the fortitude save?
Chipper173 12-16-05, 08:20 PM	I'd say if you ever use it call your DM on the lowered Con before mentioning the Fort save for death attack. If he lets it by, woohoo, death attacks just became that much easier. If he calls you on it, say, "Oh, the death attack is before the Con damage? My bad." Play by the rule for about a month or two then creep it back in.
shmeck 12-16-05, 08:48 PM	Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). Seems to me that because the prerequisite for the save is to successfully deal damage, it would make the most sense to roll the damage and apply all associated modifiers first, then make the save. For example, if you had a weapon with the Flaming quality and you were fighting a monster with DR 20/-, it might be the special quality of the weapon that allowed you to cause damage and force a save. This creates a hypothetical precedent for applying the special quality before the save. Ultimately, though, it's a judgement call, it's your DM's decision, and you should respect whatever your DM decides. Depending on the gameworld, dropping someone's Con right before the instant-death save may give you an unfair advantage.
zhellblah 12-16-05, 09:32 PM	well, my dm told me to post the issue on this board (he's not very experienced) and tell him what you guys suggested
Illithid13 12-19-05, 11:32 AM	Seems to me that because the prerequisite for the save is to successfully deal damage, it would make the most sense to roll the damage and apply all associated modifiers first, then make the save. For example, if you had a weapon with the Flaming quality and you were fighting a monster with DR 20/-, it might be the special quality of the weapon that allowed you to cause damage and force a save. This creates a hypothetical precedent for applying the special quality before the save. Ultimately, though, it's a judgement call, it's your DM's decision, and you should respect whatever your DM decides. Depending on the gameworld, dropping someone's Con right before the instant-death save may give you an unfair advantage. The way the fluff is written goes as mentioned above. I say he takes the Con Damage, then makes the fort save... stinks to be on the recieving end, but that's life... Hope you use some poisons that lower Con too... Though in the case of a Death attack with a weapon with poison, the DA would happen first as IMO, the poison takes a few seconds to happen.
Twink_007 12-20-05, 04:57 PM	Thankyou guys for the input. I'm his Dm, and to you Blah, I am more experienced than SOME of us...COUGH COUGH... Anywho...thankyou all for the info, and i'll probobly go with the wider view of damage, then save. But, that doesn't really make sense...oh well, ill mull it over some time before our next meet. Thanks again.
jackofalltrades 12-22-05, 08:48 AM	the con damage hapens as a result of the atack, so the deaht atack dc remains the same. I know its a disapointment but atleast the gm wont use it on you.
Shaggy_Shaggs 12-22-05, 08:55 AM	the con damage hapens as a result of the atack, so the deaht atack dc remains the same. I know its a disapointment but atleast the gm wont use it on you. The saving throw DC would remain the same either way, but if the target's Con drops before he makes the save, his Fort save mod drops with it, bringing his ability to meet the same DC down.
DarknessEternal 12-22-05, 10:37 AM	What is a rapier of puncturing? There is no such ability in books that I'm aware of.
Shaggy_Shaggs 12-22-05, 11:05 AM	What is a rapier of puncturing? There is no such ability in books that I'm aware of. Specific magic weapon from the 3.5 DMG - a +2 wounding rapier that also lets you make a touch attack with it that deals 1d6 Con damage 3/day.
Illithid13 12-22-05, 11:28 AM	the con damage hapens as a result of the atack, so the deaht atack dc remains the same. I know its a disapointment but atleast the gm wont use it on you. Where is your backup for this arguement? The way it is written (see Shmeck's post for the quote on death attack), it reads that the fort save is a requirement after a secussful damaging hit. The weapon does con damage as part of that damage. If you offer up a point, please back it up with evidence.
DarknessEternal 12-22-05, 01:20 PM	Ah ha. Now that I've read it, I'd like to make sure you know that you can't use it's 1d6 Con damage as part of a Death Attack. So you'll only be doing 1 Con damage (from the Wounding), then it will make a Fort save with it's lowered Con. The d6 Con damage is part of a specific power's touch attack, Death Attacks must use a regular sneak attack. I admit none of the above may be relevant to this discussion and you already may be aware of it. If you could full attack someone, then you could use both. It's not impossible that your 15th level guy could get off 4 attacks (Boots of Speed or Haste) using the Rapier for the first 3 attacks (3d6 Con damage) then make a Death Attack on his 4th attack. Since Wraithstrike is an Assassin spell, you've even got a good shot at hitting with that 4th attack. Of course, after doing 3d6 Con damage to something, it's most likely near death anyway and the regular sneak attack damage will probably finish it off before it needs to save vs the Death Attack. Take into account that in the previous scenario, you could also have just hit him with 4 sneak attacks with a wounding weapon; that would also probably have killed most things. Actually, 4 sneak attacks will straight up outdamage the 3d6 Con damage and one sneak attack. So the only time it would be a useful strategy to drain Con then Death Attack is if something had about 180 hit points or higher. But then again, something with that many hit points is going to have a great chance of passing the save on the Death Attack even with the Con penalty. All in all, Death Attack is a pretty worthless ability. It's never going to work on something that is both: a) remotely challenging and b) has enough HPs that normal sneak attacks aren't just as useful.