Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rabbidhorriddireweasel 02-11-07, 10:42 PM	So heres the deal, I am playing with 8 DnD experts and a (by the book) DM. Everyone is powergamed, and I am not good at powergaming so I constantly die. I need help in making a supremely good fighter that has a really good attack bonus and a lot of HP becuase I am aiming to be a tank and a DPS. So i need some sugestions on what feats I should take, what prestidge classes I should acquire, what class I should start out with, what magic items I should buy, and whatnot. My character will come into the game as 13th level My DM has a tendency to make things really bad for people who are unuasual (strange races, strange looking armor, and what not) and tends to persecute, so I have to avoid that as well. Please help me
drokross 02-11-07, 10:49 PM	Half-Orc Vow of Poverty Monk.
rabbidhorriddireweasel 02-11-07, 10:51 PM	sorry I forgot to mention this, but also if you could include what books some of the feats and classes you mention are from that would be great.
taradusis 02-11-07, 10:53 PM	I think I would go with a straight dwarf paladin build.The dwarf ability to move in heavy armor,see in the dark and stone work abilities are all nice.I would go for a dwarven urgosh or a greatax?Nothing fancy is what I'm thinking.
drokross 02-11-07, 10:55 PM	Vow of Poverty is from "The Book of Exalted Deeds"
Kradlo 02-11-07, 11:02 PM	You want to be a tank? Try a Dwarven Defender, from the DMG. It's got "tank" written all over it. Taking 7 levels of Fighter gets you the prerequisites quite easily. If you have the book and your GM allows it, go for the Dwarf Fighter racial substitution levels from Races of Stone. Also, if RoS is allowed, get Mithril Battle Plate and a nice magical heavy shield. You'll get a dandy armor class, and still have a decent Dex bonus to AC (helpful for touch attacks). Ghost Touch armor and weapons are your friend. Believe me, GMs will try to bypass that armor you're wearing, so stay alert. In any case, play smart and you'll live long. Have fun!
John Paul Stoddard 02-11-07, 11:19 PM	Standard PowerGame Technics Max all Stats...start with all 20s Max all HP Max Magics Slot to cover Constitution Max All Weapon Abilities Increase Con each ability increase...
Mister_Sinister 02-11-07, 11:21 PM	I would recommend a crusader build. Just go human, don't worry about anything fancy. Focus on Devoted Spirit, and go for sword-and-board. Everything you need should be in the Tome of Battle.
Sinis 02-11-07, 11:21 PM	Standard PowerGame Technics Max all Stats...start with all 20s Max all HP Max Magics Slot to cover Constitution Max All Weapon Abilities Increase Con each ability increase... I think he means character buildwise. Try the Character Optimization boards. They always have something brutally wacky that abuses game mechanics, and very frequently cite their sources. My personal favourite grossly overpowered thing-a-ma-jig is the Incantatrix prestige class (the one printed in Magic of Faerun. I'm not sure if it's been errataed or reprinted as something else.) Edit: The Instant metamagic wasn't quite errataed into oblivion, but it's most powerful abuse was fixed. It's still hot stuff, IMO.
TheOinodaemon 02-12-07, 03:02 AM	Warblade from Tome of Battle. Take the Stone Dragon and Iron Heart discipline. Crush your enemies. Drive them before you. Hear the lamentation of their women.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 03:43 AM	A tank build I actually like and play quite often is half-giant knight. I use a spiked chain, monkey grip, imp. trip, and combat reflexes. Powerful build lets you wield a Large spiked chain without penalties , and monkey grip lets you wield a Huge one at -2 penalty. This gives an effective 20 ft. reach, and coupled with the knight's ability to prevent 5ft. steps means that whoever tries to reach you will get a lot of AOO's(and trips). And when(if) they reach you, the knight's D12 hit die and heavy armor means you can still hold your own. However, since you say your DM doesn't like unusual races(in my book half-giant is not more unusual than half-orc, half-elf or half-ogre but people might disagree) you might have an easier time changing the race to dwarf, but this limits you to using a Large spiked chain(15 ft. reach).
Yokomohoyo 02-12-07, 04:03 AM	You want something that can kill a god? Try Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)
draco1119 02-12-07, 04:15 AM	A tank build I actually like and play quite often is half-giant knight. I use a spiked chain, monkey grip, imp. trip, and combat reflexes. Powerful build lets you wield a Large spiked chain without penalties , and monkey grip lets you wield a Huge one at -2 penalty. This gives an effective 20 ft. reach, and coupled with the knight's ability to prevent 5ft. steps means that whoever tries to reach you will get a lot of AOO's(and trips). And when(if) they reach you, the knight's D12 hit die and heavy armor means you can still hold your own. However, since you say your DM doesn't like unusual races(in my book half-giant is not more unusual than half-orc, half-elf or half-ogre but people might disagree) you might have an easier time changing the race to dwarf, but this limits you to using a Large spiked chain(15 ft. reach). Powerful build and Monkey Grip don't stack. You want something that can kill a god? Try Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Bad Yokomohoyo! *slap* I like the Dwarven Defender idea, personally. Although make sure you take an even number of levels in Fighter (if that's the clss you choose) or go with Paladin. They get some cool spells to go with your Dwarfness (Silverbeard and Strength of Stone from Spell Compendium).
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 04:38 AM	Powerful build and Monkey Grip don't stack. Could you please explain why they don't stack? I have just checked CW( Monkey grip entry), XPH and Races of Stone(the only two places I know that present races with powerful build) and find nothing that would prevent these two from stacking.
draco1119 02-12-07, 08:13 AM	Could you please explain why they don't stack? I have just checked CW( Monkey grip entry), XPH and Races of Stone(the only two places I know that present races with powerful build) and find nothing that would prevent these two from stacking. Certainly: Can I use a Greatsword with one-hand with Monkey Grip? No. The Monkey Grip(MG) feat allows you to use a weapon of larger size than yours without changing the effort you need to wield it. For example, if you try to use a Large Longsword without this feat, you suffer a -2 penalty due to the size difference (it's a weapon designed for Large creatures),and you need to use it with two hands. With Monkey Grip you still suffer a -2 penalty, but you can wield it as a Large creature does,with one hand. Note:MG doesn't allow you to wield a Medium Greatsword (A Two-Handed weapon for medium creatures) with one hand, even if the Large Longsword of the example above would deal the same damage. Can I combine Monkey Grip and Powerful Build? Do they stack? No. Powerful build says that it treats the character as being one size category larger in many ways. And then it lists them: - he is treated as one size larger, if doing so is advantageous to him, when he is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check. - he is considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size can affect him. Now, he is not treated as one size larger for the purpose of wielding weapons. Rather, he can wield weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. Monkey Grip(MG) would give him the same advantage, but with a -2 penalty. Monkey Grip(MG) allows you to use a weapon of larger size than yours without changing the effort you need to wield it, but with a -2 penalty to attack rolls. The Half-Giant and the Goliath, being Medium creatures, would be allowed to use weapons designed for Large creatures with a -2 penalty, penalty that they can avoid simply using their Powerful Build ability.
ShubNiggurath 02-12-07, 08:29 AM	Play a human cleric and take as feats: Take the planning domain (CW) that gives you extend spell for free H)persistant spell (CA) 1)DMM: persistant (CD) 3) extra turning 6) extra turning 9) extra turning 12) extra turning This way you should be able to persist 3 spells. Persist divine favor, divine power and righteous might. Crush anyone and everything. PS: if your DM is trigger-happy against your PC, drop divine favor and persist major resistance (SS) for +6 to all saves PPS: if you can get undeath domain from the spell compendium, you can get another extra turning for free
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 09:15 AM	I must second the call for Pun-Pun (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) Your DM has clearly lost it. He has no concept of making a fun game, only a rules-strict game. Absoloutely everything about Pun-Pun is, strictly speaking, legal. He's opened the courtroom. It's time to play the Chewbacca defense.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 09:15 AM	Certainly: Thank you. @ShadowDragon: Apart from his hatred of unusual races I don't see anything so wrong about this DM. If he has powergamer players I think it is normal to present them with encounters that will challenge them. Otherwise it would all become a walk in the park for the strong characters.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 09:24 AM	He's also stomping with impunity over a player who's not a powergamer. In the OP's on words, "... so I constantly die." The DM is playing rules-lawyer hardball, and when a player is forced to beg for help on the WotC forums, he's clearly making that player unhappy. Hence, it's time to put a little muscle in said player's docket: Pun-Pun. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801)
draco1119 02-12-07, 09:45 AM	*slaps ShadowDragon8685* Have you actually READ the disclaimer about Pun-Pun? His creator, Khan_the_Destroyer (may he live forever :P), specifically states 'Pun-Pun is NOT INTENDED TO BE PLAYED. He is a thought excercise ONLY." If you want to break the game, go straight Druid with Natural Spell. Or the Cleric build a couple posts above.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 09:58 AM	He's also stomping with impunity over a player who's not a powergamer. In the OP's on words, "... so I constantly die." The DM is playing rules-lawyer hardball, and when a player is forced to beg for help on the WotC forums, he's clearly making that player unhappy. Hence, it's time to put a little muscle in said player's docket: Pun-Pun. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801) I agree that he is making the OP unhappy(I wouldn't be very happy if I kept dying every session or so either). But you should think about the other players too. Do you think that if the DM lowers the CR's to fit the only non-optimized character in the party the rest of the players would still be having fun? And even if he did this, there is the risk that the powergamers start killing stuff so fast that the 'normal' character gets a feeling of utter and complete uselessness. In this game there are two different levels of power. The only feasible solutions are convince the powergamers to lower their optimization level a little or help the OP build a character that is up to the rest of the party. And Pun-Pun is an extreme solution. You can only have 1 Pun-Pun. The DM can build a whole army of them. As a side note, it would be interesting if we knew what the powergamers are playing.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 10:09 AM	*jabs draco1119 five times in the gut, backhands draco1119 at 90 miles per hour, knees draco1119 in the groin twice, attacks draco1119 with the Uber Dark Energy 99 times, and drops a steamroller on draco1119. And does it all in a way that is beyond rebuke, rebuttal, counter-attack, or defense.* Word of advice. Opening your posts with "*slaps another poster*" is a bad idea. And I'm well aware that Pun-Pun is not meant to be played in any ordinary game. This is clearly an extraordinary game where the only law is the law of the jungle, may the best rules-lawyer-power-munchkin have fun, and everybody else can scrape for what they can scrape. Those sorts of DMs need to be played at their own game, and that means Pun-Pun.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 10:13 AM	Just curious, what would you do if you were DM-ing the said game? I have had this problem(different level of character optimization) in some games I've played(have been both on the losing and winning side) and I am curious about any constructive solutions to it.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 10:17 AM	I woulden't be so asinine as to ignore the fact that one of my players is clearly miserable. I'd hand him something like a powerful, drawback-free Weapon of Legacy or similar to bring his power in range of the other characters, or else I'd let him Gestalt or something. And if I was going to be an absoloute rules-lawyer jerk, I'd really not have a leg to complain on if he brought in a copy of Pun-Pun.
RadicalTaoist 02-12-07, 10:55 AM	le CO boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=339) Take the inquiry there, but read the guidelines first. On use of Pun-Pun: If I ever catch someone [using] theoretical work in an actual/practical gaming situation, there will be hell to pay. In an hell-paying installment system which makes the Abyssal tax system look more reasonable than a Mechanus Vending Machine Golem Paragon. The OP's game hasn't gotten anywhere near that bad yet.
mkill 02-12-07, 10:59 AM	So heres the deal, I am playing with 8 DnD experts and a (by the book) DM. Everyone is powergamed, and I am not good at powergaming so I constantly die. Meh... I wouldn't call somebody D&D expert who is unable to keep a fellow player character alive. That sucks! What you want is not some uber-character. Yeah, sure, if you optimize right you can squeeze another 10% of power out of your PC. That means he dies after 6 hits instead of 5. Great. Now if you just learn how to retreat from the fight after 4 hits you can easily save your PC without the need for optimization. Remember that even if you make your char 10% more powerful, your DM can easily boost the monsters by 50%. Before you make the next char, you should analyze why the character actually died. Did you do something stupid, like running into a trap before the rogue disabled it? Did the other PCs let you die, because you had to face the monster while they chickened out? Is there no party spirit? And when there are eight 13th level characters, is there no cleric with a raise dead around? Did the DM kill your char in cold blood? If you ask me, what you need is a normal character, but one that is a team player. One that brings an important ability to the party, so the others won't let you die.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 11:08 AM	Ignoring the fact that a player is certainly not having fun is indeed bad DM-ing. But handing out items too unevenly could make the other players feel punished because they play good. For example I currently play in two campaigns. The first one is ok. We are all at least decent players, can powergame if we feel like it(the last campaign with this group featured fully optimized chars; our party was slaughtering balors(1 balor actually) around level 14 without much trouble)but keep an acceptable level of power because we feel it's more fun this way. The other campaign is another matter entirely. Most of the players are newbies/not too good optimizers. I have tried not to optimize too much(I play an elf druid, feats/spells only from phb/eberron)but I still come out on top by a significant edge. So the DM attempts to bridge this power gap. The fighter gets an advancement to the half-fiend template.No problem as it is part of the storyline. But then when we recieve some significant treasure(reward for completing o series of difficult tests) I get basically c**p(pearls of power 2*lvl1, 2*lvl.2) while the fighter gets an item with DR 10/-(practically offsetting his only weakness due to the template-lower HD). He gets such a custom made item and I have to do quests for wilding clasps(perfectly legit item). I kind of fell that I have to optimize just to be on the same level with the DM-boosted char.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 11:34 AM	Ignoring the fact that a player is certainly not having fun is indeed bad DM-ing. But handing out items too unevenly could make the other players feel punished because they play good. For example I currently play in two campaigns. The first one is ok. We are all at least decent players, can powergame if we feel like it(the last campaign with this group featured fully optimized chars; our party was slaughtering balors(1 balor actually) around level 14 without much trouble)but keep an acceptable level of power because we feel it's more fun this way. The other campaign is another matter entirely. Most of the players are newbies/not too good optimizers. I have tried not to optimize too much(I play an elf druid, feats/spells only from phb/eberron)but I still come out on top by a significant edge. So the DM attempts to bridge this power gap. The fighter gets an advancement to the half-fiend template.No problem as it is part of the storyline. But then when we recieve some significant treasure(reward for completing o series of difficult tests) I get basically c**p(pearls of power 2*lvl1, 2*lvl.2) while the fighter gets an item with DR 10/-(practically offsetting his only weakness due to the template-lower HD). He gets such a custom made item and I have to do quests for wilding clasps(perfectly legit item). I kind of fell that I have to optimize just to be on the same level with the DM-boosted char. DR 10/- goes way beyond compensating unless the other characters are powergamed to the point of untouchability.
Judging Eagle 02-12-07, 11:46 AM	So, you want to be a Tank and DPS? Well, what kind of DPS do you want? Seriously, you're writin Damage Per Second as if it meant something; it doesn't. Also, Tanks don't tend to be amazing Damage Dealers. Which ends up making them suck as tanks. Melee Damage dealers are better 'tanks' since enemies will be more likely to want to attack them. I'd just ask the DM if I could make a RoW (Races of War) Barbarian for the high melee DPS, Fast Healing and combat DR, then grab myself an adamantine Breast Plate for the DR "Your BaB"/Adamantine.
Drag0nUL 02-12-07, 11:53 AM	DR 10/- goes way beyond compensating unless the other characters are powergamed to the point of untouchability. That is exactly my point. When you start handing out stuff(items or abilities) to even out the odds you have to be extra careful not to push the game to the other end.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 12:07 PM	Not especially so. In a party full of powergamers who can get this kind of stuff through rules loopholes, exploits, and stacking things that where never meant to be stacked, it's actually kinda hard to overpower the non-powergamer. Plus, being a non-powergamer, they won't know how to properly capitalize on what's been given to them.
Novabomb 02-12-07, 12:17 PM	First things first, I will assume that instead of powergame you mean optimize. Powergamer is a term that describes the intent of a character during creation to be build FOR power. Optimization describes the method by which characters are contructed to be more efficient or powerful. Second things second, (to the OP) you should visit the Character optimization boards. Radical Taoist has already provided you with a link to the posting guidelines. Third things Third, Fighter is bad for your health, heed the commandments of optimization, especially the 6th. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522499&page=1&pp=30 Plus, being a non-powergamer, they won't know how to properly capitalize on what's been given to them. This is a dangerous generalization. Just because one chooses not to optimize for power does not mean that one does not know HOW to optimize.
ShadowDragon8685 02-12-07, 03:32 PM	This is a dangerous generalization. Just because one chooses not to optimize for power does not mean that one does not know HOW to optimize. Generally when one comes complaining of his optimized companions screwing him over and asking for advice, he dosen't know how to optimize. Besides, remember. The DM can giveth, the DM can taketh away if you become a jerk with it.
Holy_Avenger_441 02-15-07, 10:36 AM	Your DM's heavy armor predjudice can be countered by gleaming armor (I think thats the name) your layers of steel will look like plain old clothing. Race and class wise i suggest dwarf paladin/dwarven defender.
Nathreet 02-15-07, 10:58 AM	in game solution: Visit the character optimization boards in these forums, then ask the same question. Borrow some of the power gamers' books. Spend plenty of time in that forum until they give you a really nice character, while at the same time making sure it doesn't stretch the rules to the point of silliness (like pun-pun). out of game solution: Contribute to the party in some small way, but make sure you stay on the sidelines most of the time. In general stay safe and out of harm's way. Don't be afraid to spend an encounter hiding, for example - if that's your character's style or if the need arises. Make sure the party understands that you're a bit new so: not as much can be expected from you, you'd like their help in learning to be better, and you may need their help to get your character out of a jam. Consider a utility character that powergamers might not want to play. It'll give you a greater justification to hide when a major (but not minor) encounter arises. Example utility characters are bards, magic item makers, mages with utility spells, someone with good diplomatic or knowledge or other between combat skills. Or a ranged character who can plunk arrows/spells from a safe distance.