Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkNick 12-11-06, 02:09 PM	As a player I have to say I am really not fond of a DM fudging things when you should be almost certainly dead. I have a small game at work and the other day my character was killed by a troll. He went down to -10 in one hit. But then ... tadaa tadaaaa!... an NPC turned up that same round (that we knew from previous adventures) - did some sort of magic on me and I was ok, apparantly [just aside, if you're in your barbarian rage, get knocked unconcious, then get healed so that you are back on your feet within your rage timeframe are you still in rage?]. I'm not sure on the rules of this but by my reckoning I was dead as dead. I'm really not to bothered by that as I feel he had a good run and figured it was fairly inevitable at some point being the front liner of a party of two (+2 NPC's). I feel let down that the DM did not allow him to die. It was just really dissapointing. My character deserved an honest warriors death damn it! :weep: Now I'm just ranting, but this particular fight was one we could not win. He said so himself and I could see from the start we would be in trouble. He had planned for this NPC (who was tougher than the party), to turn up and save the day, but left it a little late...sigh. :rolleyes: . Man I hate it when most of the NPCs you meet are tougher than the party. It's like why bother - let the NPCs do the work. As such I have been playing up - being an arse to all the NPCs, challenging their opinions (they all act like they are superior to the party). Sometime I just feel like us player are there to make up the numbers to allow the DM to enjoy his own game..... :rant: This leads me to the conclusion that I must become a POWER GAMER!! :evillaugh Yeah, I could just talk to the DM about it. But where is the fun in that? For me it comes down to value. It is only 1hr a week, its not worth it for me to make me want to fight for change. Sometime it is frustrating and I just want to vent. How does everyone else feel about a DM saving your ass at the last second 'by the hand of DM'?
IdleAltruism 12-11-06, 02:29 PM	As a Dm I've only saved a few characters from death for the plot line(the majority were epic characters). I know my players and I know what they are capable of. I consider myself very fortunate, I've had very few fatalities(although I've had a couple mishaps when players teleported).
TheChilliGod 12-11-06, 02:45 PM	This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. They even gave a name for it in the DMG: A Deus Ex Machina. This sort of plot device can be interesting if only done once or twice throughout a whole campaign, but it does get boring quickly as the players realize that they cannot lose a fight because of their guardian angels, and it's far less satisfying that you (or rather, the NPC) won that fight that way. I have had the fortune of not having to experience a Deus Ex Machina, though a few things in one campaign have come rather close to this. But I can imagine it must be very nice to know that you can just sit back and not worry about that backup character you saved, because of your PC's guardian NPC. :rolleyes: Shove the DMG at your DM's face, at page 45-46, under Bad Structure: Deus Ex Machina. He won't be able to deny that kind of argument, except for saying that his NPC rushing in to save you from the troll that you couldn't obviously defeat is, in fact, not a Deus Ex Machina (A weak argument).
Apupunchau 12-11-06, 03:00 PM	I've saved chaacters before if I wasn't rady for them to die, but never by a stroke of luck like an NPC miraculously showing up. I genreally keep all of the players relavant stats on a sheet near me, including max and current HP if I didn't want to kill a character I would have jsut fudged the damage not to bring you down to mnus 10.
Bester 12-11-06, 05:59 PM	just aside, if you're in your barbarian rage, get knocked unconcious, then get healed so that you are back on your feet within your rage timeframe are you still in rage?Yes. Your rage doesn't end if you go unconscious unless the time limit actually expires. If it did, then no one would ever rage after fourth level-- at fifth level, if they were knocked below 0HP, they'd die instantly when they lost the +4Con gained by the rage.
Lord Karsus 12-11-06, 06:46 PM	-Well, on the good side, you're not dead anymore...;)
Thunder Dragonbane 12-11-06, 08:29 PM	I had a simalar experiance on sunday. The party opened a set of doors and on the other side there was several monstrous foes. GM asked for inish and my character had the highest of the party. My Barbarian charged the biggest and closest foe, doing only about 15 - 20 damage. 5th lvl NO magic items. The Naga that I charged, basicly laughed at me and stabbed me with it's stinger. I failed the fort save. At this point I thought I was dead and the reast of the party hadn't even entered the room yet. 10 combat rounds later, the party's ranger is dead, the bard, cleric, and psion are all under 10 HP. Maby single digits for all three. All three are completly out of spells. The Naga has been on top of my corpse for the entire combat, which should have been doing crushing damage. It had even coiled me up at one point as if it planned to carry me off. When the party one the fight, still don't know how they did it. Some NPC showed up and cast neutralize poison on me. Which wakes me up from the coma that I was in, and the GM talls me I only took 30 HP of damage from the sting and bite that first round. Pathetic, the game should have been a TPK not only the one.
Newpaintbrush 12-11-06, 11:53 PM	Deus ex machina? :nonono: Sad.
Sphyre 12-12-06, 01:17 AM	Raise Dead Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 5 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level. A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell. A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age. Material Component: Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp. All similar spells, including revivify have the highlighted portion. Also, most people wouldn't want to be revivied once they arrive in whatever afterlife they desired to. If my DM tried to pull this on me, I'd simply not res. I like the feel of danger, even if it means i'll die. You can't die a warrior's death, if you don't ever fight battles worth fighting for.
High Octane 12-12-06, 05:30 AM	Better to die by TPK then live by DM fiat. Thats what I always say. Yeah I've had this problem. The DM is a harsh one, hes a good DM though. The problem is, I can sense halfway through the battle that he starts making the NPCs act wrong, and sometimes pull NPCs out of the blue, or decide the rules suddenly favor us. We arnt taking penalties and the NPCs are, etc...
nephtis 12-12-06, 09:24 AM	Yes. Your rage doesn't end if you go unconscious unless the time limit actually expires. If it did, then no one would ever rage after fourth level-- at fifth level, if they were knocked below 0HP, they'd die instantly when they lost the +4Con gained by the rage. That's interesting, can you tell me where to find that rule? That's how we're playing so far and my barbarian has actually just raged once without dying. Rage and a difficult encounter is certain death for the meat shield beyond lvl 4 and easy encounters don't justify rage...
Sphyre 12-12-06, 10:35 AM	Better to die by TPK then live by DM fiat. Thats what I always say. Agreed. Although, I have made an exception to this before: In my current game, the wizard took a lot of time to make a good background, and I wove it into the story. His father was too busy for him when he was a kid, and left him to study magic under a wizard at age 10. Also he had memories of how his father would go off and come back at times, but had no knowledge of what he was doing. I decided, that since the area had a group of mages, that his father was busy doing things related to his association with the mages. When the wizard in the party died, someone who was watching over the wizard, a friend of his father's, ressurected him, saying that he did it because he was paying a debt to the wizard's father by doing that, and that the debt had now been fulfilled. He was then able to learn more about his father and this group of mages, in which the wizard decided he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and become one of the mages too. As long as you do it right, the DM fiat can work out, but if there's no story behind it, or just a DM "woops" it really can be underwhelming.
pres_man 12-12-06, 11:04 AM	That's interesting, can you tell me where to find that rule? That's how we're playing so far and my barbarian has actually just raged once without dying. Rage and a difficult encounter is certain death for the meat shield beyond lvl 4 and easy encounters don't justify rage... Well here is the FAQ statement: Does a raging barbarian lose the effects of his rage (including the extra hit points from his increased Constitution) when he falls unconscious? No. Nothing in the rage class feature indicates that the effect ends if the barbarian is rendered unconscious. The Sage shudders to think how many more dead barbarians would be lying around the battlefield if being reduced to –1 hp meant that the barbarian instantly lost additional hp equal to twice his HD! As a general rule, activated effects remain active even if the activating character is rendered incapable of acting (paralyzed, unconscious, dead, and so on) unless the effect stipulates otherwise. Also I believe there is a spell in some book that allows you to heal someone even if they died, if you cast on them in the same round. On the other hand, if you were truly dead and the DM tried to say that you were healed back and you didn't want it, there is nothing stopping you from saying, "No he is spirit does not return." And then tearing up your character sheet. I am not saying that is the most mature way to handle it (and you might want to write down your gear for your companions prior to doing that), but when facing a DM doing things like that sometimes (rarely) extreme measures are called for.
Sphyre 12-12-06, 11:25 AM	Also I believe there is a spell in some book that allows you to heal someone even if they died, if you cast on them in the same round. Are you refering to Revivify (Spell Compendium)? It allows you to revive a dead person with no level loss (and 1/5 the cost of the material compenent), but only can be done within 1 round of dying. Or perhaps Close Wounds (Spell Compendium)? It's a spell that's an immediate action that can heal damage done, even if that person would have died otherwise. With augment healing (+1d4+9), it's great, esspecially for a Favored Soul who has a ton of spells to blow it on. What else? it's a ranged heal too :)
RobbyPants 12-12-06, 01:35 PM	I've had this same thing happed before. It is frustrating. I get hit, and the DM asks, how many HP do you have? It becomes pretty obvious (espescially if the monster rolls less damage than the number of dice plus it's Str mod). This sort of thing happens more often than you might think. They even gave a name for it in the DMG: A Deus Ex Machina. This term's actually been used long before D&D. It's a latin phrase meaning god from the machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex_Machina). The idea was that in the plays in ancient Greece, the person playing a god would be lowered onto the stage with some sort of machine. What it means is an ulikely plot device that brings a sudden change. There are all kinds of examples of this: Uber NPC saving the day. A god steps in and fixes things. PCs realize it was all a dream, and nothing bad happened. Everyone in the town naturally develops an immunity to the plague when the PCs don't get the antidote in time. The list goes on. Long and the short of it, TheChilliGod is right. This is always an annoying and unsatifying tactic. The players end up feeling like they're just sitting there listening to the DM's story.
DarkNick 12-12-06, 02:28 PM	Thanks for the advice on rage. It turns out that it was actually possible in this instance that I had survived. My character had 10 extra Hp's from rage, got knocked to 0. The dude came and healed me before I lost those extra HP's. Good to have a winge about it though. That aside I talked to the DM and made a new character. My old character was really un-optimised, he was purely designed for roleplaying fun and versitility, but he was just not cutting it in combat. This is frustrating as I liked the character, but the party was really suffering. Would have been a good character in a bigger party. I got a bit sick of being pummeled all the time with the DM fudging things to keep me alive. Now everything should be gravy. I like me new character. I now have a pretty nifty elvish fighter - greatsword wielding spiring attack sort of fighter with good dex and str. He is named Brownie (on account of his unusual brown skin) and he is all business. Bonzai!
pres_man 12-12-06, 07:12 PM	I now have a pretty nifty elvish fighter - greatsword wielding spiring attack sort of fighter with good dex and str. He is named Brownie (on account of his unusual brown skin) and he is all business. Bonzai! Elves can't wield greatswords. Everybody knows that, they have to use a rapier or something. *Just kidding
DarkNick 12-12-06, 07:26 PM	Elves can't wield greatswords. Everybody knows that, they have to use a rapier or something. *Just kidding :D
devinmdp 12-13-06, 12:20 AM	I HATE DMs who won't kill my PC. Or rather, won't let him die in a well balanced scenario when the dice or my own stupidity say my PC should be dead. What's the fun of playing if you know you will always survive? As a DM myself, I roll almost all dice in the open. All of my players know I NEVER EVER EVER fudge the die rolls. But they trust my ability to balance scenarios and they accept that they can die in any adventure that has combat. It makes the copmbats much more tense and involving. Devin