Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr.Musgrave 08-05-04, 11:23 PM	Alright, so my group has switched DM's. Our original DM was feeling pretty burned out and wanted to play, which I can understand. So one of the other player's stepped up to DM..and that's where the trouble begins. Besides a bunch of munchkiny rule changes, things are starting to get really goofy. I missed the game session last night due to severe exhaustion and the old-DM was out of town so the remaining two members and the new DM got together to make up new characters. I found out about an hour ago that one PC is going to be a dwarven half-red dragon and the other is some kind of electro-fire lizard or something. A dwarven half-red dragon and a lizard thing. The new DM thinks this is the greatest thing. Why, I don't know. See, the on-going campaign (which this campaign is a part of) is based around an evil dragon take-over. The world is rife with them. First off, why would any self-respecting dragon mate with a dwarf. Don't get me wrong, I love dwarves but they aren't dragon mating material. Secondly, what adventurer in their right mind would attach themselves to a hated dragon-type ESPECIALLY in light of the evil-dragon take over?? Am I over-reacting here or does this seem stupid to anyone else? I haven't the slightest clue what kind of character to take. None of the core races would have anything to do with these two. The world has been ravaged by evil dragons for five years now! There's no way anyone is going to tag-team with a friggin' half-red dragon! Sorry about the rambling mess of this post but it's really aggravating. I hate party in-fighting and I especially hate silly set-ups like this one. Any suggestions or hard blows to the head are most welcome. :sad:
Harmor 08-05-04, 11:41 PM	I feel your pain. All too often my companions get all these wierd classes/templates and its really annoying. I'm a purist, like you it seems. PHB + DMG + Complete Warrior and Complete Divine are about all I'll use when it comes to classes and feats. All I can say is play what you think you'll have fun playing. Its funny when we get hit by spells that have hp requirement for the spells. Because I happen to have more class levels I also have alot more hit points. Thus you'll probably find yourself surviving more encounters than them if you play your cards right. If you're not having fun, don't play. Also you don't need to rub it in their face, just gracefully say that you have other things to do and am unable to play. Go read a book, play with your children, or watch a movie you haven't had a chance to see. Good luck.
Thorak 08-06-04, 01:03 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Musgrave First off, why would any self-respecting dragon mate with a dwarf. Don't get me wrong, I love dwarves but they aren't dragon mating material. Secondly, what adventurer in their right mind would attach themselves to a hated dragon-type ESPECIALLY in light of the evil-dragon take over?? Why would any dragon mate with any humanoid? They're all squishy puny mortal mammals. That one's a little shorter and hairier than the rest would be as meaningless to a dragon as, say, it is to a human comparing a gecko and an anole. We can tell the difference, sure, but neither is inherently 'better' to humans in any way. Dragons have so little in common with all other humanoids that IMHO they'd never mate with them regardless. But that's my personal opinion. But really, it'd be like bestiality is to humans; dragons being about that much above humans in intellect and power as humans are above animals, if not more.
allenchan 08-06-04, 03:04 AM	Personally, I think you're over reacting. I would question the reason for being an -evil- dragon, but I guess if the world is covered with them, it'd only make sense. It actualyl sounds like a pretty interesting concept, if say it was a nonconsentual thing, which is why an evil dragon would do it. To be evil. IMO, the Monster Manual is Core (tis one of the 3 core books) so I wouldnt have a problem with it, though you must be starting the campaign at a decent level, because of the LA (not sure what the other guy is, since you dont know the name) Also, is the Dwarf actually of an evil alignment? If not, perhaps you're just being prejudice, which is something you could rp, and have to deal with, opening up many oppurtunities for conflict and dissent. For example, Tieflings aren't an evil race, merely descendants from demons. Its not really their fault they were born from those parents.
StrahdVonZarovich 08-06-04, 03:08 AM	Why don't you jsut simply say that half-dragons just shouldn't exist ? Thats what you meant right ?
Salla 08-06-04, 03:12 AM	Well, for an evil dragon to mate with a humanoid, well, it might just be feeling a little frisky and that's what was available (it needn't necessarily have been willing). Besides, there's always the 'Luke, I am your father' principle ... and the half-D is nowhere NEAR as powerful as the full-D. For good dragons, there's that pesky 'love' thing that gets in the way of being all self-important and stuck up. Yes, even a dragon can love someone other than itself. If the templates are properly applied (I knew someone who swore you got racial HD for the templates, so his Half-Dragon Druid-3 had 6d12 HD ... ah, no), then I don't see the problem, so long as the DM tells him beforehand, "You are *not* going to be popular with the garden variety populace of this world. You are descended from the dragons, who (atrocity atrocity atrocity OH MY FLIPPIN' GOD atrocity), and many people are stupid enough to think that 'sins of the father are visitted upon the son' line. Are you SURE you want to go through with this?"
Mr.Musgrave 08-06-04, 03:52 AM	Harmor: Yeah, I'm a bit of a purist. The new DM just loves to stack template after template on things and he's starting to infect the rest of the group. It's very bothersome. Thorak: I can see where you're coming from but dragons seem pretty preoccupied with things of beauty, which dwarves are not. I figure if a dragon was going to mate with something, it would be something attractive. allenchan: You have a lot of good points and you're probably right about me over-reacting. I'm kinda known for it. And it's not the template I have a problem with, but a half-dragon dwarf just seems silly to me and I know it wasn't the player's idea. The New DM was going on about a half-red dragon dwarf about a week ago and I'm sure he put the idea in the player's head. It seemed silly a week ago and it seems silly now. Your role playing concepts have given me a couple ideas though. Thanks! StrahdVonZarovich: Who me? No, I have no problem with half-dragons (or templates for that matter.) I just have issues with templates that are applied for silly or no reasons. The New DM is template happy, like I said, and he's infecting the other two players with it. Our games were getting a little munchkiny for my tastes before this and now with the new DM it's barely palatable. Salla: The problem is that i KNOW the DM didn't tell the player he wouldn't be liked by most anyone. All he said was "Well yeah, but he'll be immune to COLD!" He doesn't care about the story, he just cares about the numbers. I forgot how much that irks me.
SnowbearK 08-06-04, 06:04 AM	For the majority of your questions regarding dragons mating, refer to the Draconomicon & Dragon #320. There are easily a dozen or so reasons. As to why the player would want to play a Half-Red dragon, he may suffer either benign or malignant Drow Ranger Syndrome. Benign simply means he's innocent enough to really want to play that kind of character. Malignant means he thinks he'll be "special" and gets to be the "kick-ass action star" of his fantasies. Or perhaps he's just a munchkin. I'd place my bet on DRS and a case of stupidity, as your DM said he'd be immune to cold as a half-red dragon/dwarf... :angel: Any munchkin worth the name knows differently. Now, there is another issue beneath all of this: Player becomes New DM. Key words, "new" and "DM." Bear in mind, few people can handle DMing. The ratio of Players to DMs in a given group is rarely more 4 to 1. A lot of people are scared to DM, afraid they'll wind up sucking at it and be humiliated in front of their friends, possibly their loved ones, and nowadays, online as well. It's a lot of pressure, especially if you're taking over for your regular DM. Usually new DM's make changes they think of while playing, without realizing the impact. It happens. That's where player input comes in. In almost every case, the first campaign a new DM runs sucks. DMing is as much art as it is science (rule mechanics). You can know all the rules, and still suck at telling a cooperative story as the main storyteller.
Thorak 08-06-04, 09:42 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Musgrave Thorak: I can see where you're coming from but dragons seem pretty preoccupied with things of beauty, which dwarves are not. I figure if a dragon was going to mate with something, it would be something attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the, well, the beholder, but not the eye-tyrant kind. Humans see Elves as pretty because they're fairly similar to humans, and the differences are in favour of human aesthetics. Dwarves, however, are not, since they are hairy, bulky, and short. But to a dwarf, most humans and elves probably look far too skinny, stretched out, and bare to be considered 'pretty'. And to a dragon, all humanoids would look pretty much the same. They could tell the difference, sure, but there's nothing about dwarves that's inherently less 'pretty' than any other race. The charisma loss could just as easily be because of their tendency to have a sour disposition.
Phrennzy 08-06-04, 11:29 AM	things of beauty, which dwarves are not You're kidding, right? Is there anything hotter than 200 pounds of corded muscle, wide, thick shoulders, deep, resonant voice that booms like thunder when he calls your name? The smell of sweat mixed with the dirt and soot from a hard days work - your man providing for your family, knowing that he would kill a hundred men to keep you safe? Confident, rugged, determined, honest - that's hot. That aside, you need to jump right in. Embrace the templates. You say its a half red dragon - is he evil? If so, then jump in and grab a half black dragon dwarf. You are both from a clan that embraced the evil dragons taking over the world. Put the smack down on some of the good forces for a few sessions until the regular DM is ready to return. Then he can easily work these now NPC half dragons into the plot as villains easy to hate - and fear, because you know their strengths. If it isn't an evil campaign, then that's even easier. Why judge the dwarf by the color of his skin? Or his parents? Let him make his own way - maybe he is striving to overthrow his draconic parent's hold on the world. This doesn't sound like a permanent change - just a side deal until the regular DM gets over his burn out. A little hack and slash will do you good. But, if after all this thought, you don't want to play with them, don't. Take a few weeks off, and then come back when the regular DM is ready.
Arrowhen 08-06-04, 11:46 AM	Is there anything hotter than 200 pounds of corded muscle, wide, thick shoulders, deep, resonant voice that booms like thunder... The smell of sweat mixed with the dirt and soot... And those are the FEMALES...
Telemont 08-06-04, 12:07 PM	While I shudder at the thought of both a half dragon and a lizard thing in the same campaign, I have to at least muse on an easy possibility for their being a dwarven half dragon. Imagine, if you will, a burly red dragon with a mind for mining out it's entire mountain. It has a contingent of dwarves it keeps as slaves to make sure it's mountainous lair is both tidy, fit, and never in ill repair. All the while, constantly increasing it's horde. The Dragon frequently strolls the cavern grounds in an absurdly muscular dwarven form, to keep track of the earnings like any good taskmaster. I imagine that a beast such as this would fairly delight in how easily lawful dwarves would cow to it's will and work diligently and without too much complaint. The cavern is full of sooty, battered but fearful dwarves brought low from their pride. They know well that what they do is shameful to the nation of dwarves, but what are they to do? Should the men disobey, their women are raped. Should the women disobey, the children are tortured either by the dragon's pet fire elemental that roves the caves Lord of the Rings style, or just a group of genuinely evil snotty dwarves that revel in the illusory office of power that the Red Dragon grants them. Rape, sir, is a sacred tool of control for the corrupt, depraved, maniacle, and just plain sociopathic control freaks. (Though I do NOT recommend EVER playing this out in a RP situation. Simple allusion is MORE than any game ever needs.) Sounds like a Red Dragon to me.
Phrennzy 08-06-04, 12:37 PM	Telemont :thumbsup:
Mr.Musgrave 08-06-04, 12:52 PM	Okay, okay, I give. :D You guys are far too logical and level headed for me! Perhaps I was over-reacting, and I can see all of your points. You've given me a lot of good role-playing ideas for dealing with these guys and even made me rethink the whole dwarf/dragon thing. Perhaps I'm just getting snotty in my old age. And yeah, maybe it would do me good to play some templated lunacy that I normally wouldn't play, and hack-and-slash the crap out of things. Oh, SnowbearK, the player is benign, the DM is malignant. He's the good/misunderstood drow/vampire type. You know how it goes.:sad:
Tony Vargas 08-06-04, 02:26 PM	If you want to have fun and be excessively effective in a game, play what the DM would. If the DM is gah-gah for whacky, templated, power-gamed wierdness, it's time to try that out. If the game sucks even when you're 'playing along,' don't be afraid to ditch it...
MrkGrismer 08-06-04, 02:57 PM	... and speaking of vampires... there's your template! :D
Mr.Musgrave 08-06-04, 04:38 PM	Tony: You're right. Time to pull out some templated stupidity that I'd never think of playing in a normal game. A feral, anthropomorphic baleen whale or something. MrkGrismer: A feral, anthropomorphic baleen whale VAMPIRE! BLAH! BLAH!:behold:
MrkGrismer 08-06-04, 05:50 PM	With a +5 Vorpal potted petunia? :D
Mr.Musgrave 08-06-04, 06:32 PM	EXACTLY! Oh, how they will fear the petunia! The soiling will be terrible!
Occams_Razor 08-10-04, 10:49 AM	Be a half-celestial elf and constantly rag on the evil bastard dwarf... hehe, oh, and make bad "you're so hot..." jokes. Wow, I wish *I* could play in your campaign... :smirk:
D+1 08-12-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by Mr.Musgrave Perhaps I was over-reacting, and I can see all of your points. You've given me a lot of good role-playing ideas for dealing with these guys and even made me rethink the whole dwarf/dragon thing. Perhaps I'm just getting snotty in my old age. And yeah, maybe it would do me good to play some templated lunacy that I normally wouldn't play, and hack-and-slash the crap out of things.Nothing at all wrong with your initial reaction. IME it is FAR more likely for someone to want to play a half-dragon, lizard-thing, or other monster/template horror simply for the power-mongering aspects rather than seeking some new, unusual roleplaying perspective. One thing that any good campaign must have is internal consistency. When you rolled up YOUR character was it your understanding that the DM was offering a fairly typical range of race/class/prestige/template combinations? To miss one or two sessions and find that your character's NEW BEST FRIENDS AND ADVENTURING BUDDIES are half-dragons, lizard-things or other bizzare monstrosities the DM has definitely been unmindful of that little internal consistency thing. Such radical, unexpected shifts are unneeded and as your reaction shows - often unwanted. While it's best that you roll with this as best you can (often as not you WILL at least get used to it) do NOT just let this situation go without making it VERY clear that you're not appreciative of the pointless upheavals you now have to accomodate. If a DM wants to let PC's play half-dragon dwarves, et. al., there's NOTHING wrong with that - unless that's an option he suddenly throws into the campaign mid-stream. It is not all that dissimilar to having a player create a new PC with an Evil alignment and throw him into the mix in a party that was formerly very non-Evil or even Good-aligned. While it can be dealt with it is NOT something that the DM should allow without a significant amount of thought and a good idea of the reactions of ALL players and their characters. Players alone certainly don't have the right to upset the established order that way on their own. For the DM to allow it or encourage it is Very Bad Form. I also do not feel that the best solution is to fight fire with fire and try to out-freak what you percieve to be a freakish character. [Freakish due simply to it's complete absence up to this point in the campaign.] If your initail perception is justified at all then those kind of characters really ARE out of place, and simply mulitplying the degree of oddity will almost certainly degenerate the campaign further and more rapidly into something that you're NOT going to be at all happy with.
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-13-04, 02:49 PM	Originally posted by D+1 Nothing at all wrong with your initial reaction. IME it is FAR more likely for someone to want to play a half-dragon, lizard-thing, or other monster/template horror simply for the power-mongering aspects rather than seeking some new, unusual roleplaying perspective. Right on. Of course, then there is me. Under 2nd edition (actually Player's Options") I ran a wizard/priest with emphasis on elemental domains. My race was 1/2 nymph, 1/2 Amethyst dragon. I looked sort of elven, but with a slightly scaley, slightly mauve complexion. I asked the DM to just consider, other than for RP purposes, my race to be 1/2 elf. (It seemed the most appropriate.) I just wanted to be something weird... The DM gave me that ability to talk to all air and water creatures, water breathing, and some other special abilities.
Monster 08-14-04, 04:38 AM	Originally posted by Phrennzy Is there anything hotter than 200 pounds of corded muscle, wide, thick shoulders, deep, resonant voice that booms like thunder when he calls your name? The smell of sweat mixed with the dirt and soot from a hard days work... Yeah, pretty much everything else, at least for me.
Flagonpaw 08-14-04, 06:49 AM	My group's resident power gamer took over as DM, and he encouraged things like this. I suggest you do what I did. Play a half-fiend, stick to the shadows, and place an emphasis on your skills. When adventuring with a psychotic looking group of uber-characters it's best to be deceptive. The value of Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and Hide cannot be ignored.
Hero of Sshamath 08-14-04, 05:05 PM	I'd say suggest to the new DM that you want your character to be a lich, or better yet, a Draco-lich...I mean hey if everybody else is going "template trigger-happy" why not join in the fun...You get to play something that's TOTALLY out there, and you'll probably not have the chance anytime soon....o0( at least not with a more sensible DM...) So, go for the GUSTO! You could even try to play something from the BoVD like a Life Drinker or anyother foul, bestial character. It may even point out to them that what they are doing is non-sensical....or not...either way you get to have fun...remember....it's a GAME....it's played for enjoyment. Don't get all serious about it....unless you're getting paid for it. :D