Post/Author/DateTime	Post
styphon 09-25-06, 04:08 PM	Here's the situation: I walk along a wall in a dungeon. My GM says that I provoke an AoO from an incorporeal ghost who's in the wall. I'm struck, I fail my save and I get a 2 level drain. I know a ghost can MOVE through a wall but can they SEE through the wall? I would think the ghost wouldn't have been able to see me and therefore would not have been able to make an AoO against me. I suppose a portion of it's head could have been sticking out of the wall, but in that case, I should have been given a spot check right? Can anyone clarify the rules on this? Can you point me to a spot in the book that references it?
DarkNick 09-25-06, 04:30 PM	I think the DM could rule that the ghost could see through the wall. Remember they don't 'see' like most people do considering they don't really have any physical eyes. Bit of a mean trick though. Not particulalry fair on the players. The only time I would probably do this is during a very high powered or high level game, or I gave the players clues that this could happen.
Mome_rath 09-25-06, 04:44 PM	Here's the situation: I walk along a wall in a dungeon. My GM says that I provoke an AoO from an incorporeal ghost who's in the wall. I'm struck, I fail my save and I get a 2 level drain. I know a ghost can MOVE through a wall but can they SEE through the wall? I would think the ghost wouldn't have been able to see me and therefore would not have been able to make an AoO against me. I suppose a portion of it's head could have been sticking out of the wall, but in that case, I should have been given a spot check right? Can anyone clarify the rules on this? Can you point me to a spot in the book that references it? I think that you are absolutely correct on this. Unless the ghost has blindsight or tremorsense or something like that, it must rely on its normal vision. Normal vision does not penetrate solid objects. The ghost does not threaten squares that it cannot see into, so it never would have gotten an AoO against you unless its head was sticking out of the wall. If its head was sticking out of the wall, you should have been entitled to a Spot check, unless the ghost was also invisible.
Sulaco 09-25-06, 05:05 PM	From teh description of incorporeal: They can pass through solid objects at will, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter. He might've heard you and made an attack as if attacking an invisible opponent, though I would rule that if it can't see when encased in a solid object it can't hear either. In short, your DM goofed.
Artector 09-25-06, 05:16 PM	Yeah, he did. Also I'm pretty sure that some GMs use incorporeal completely wrong, they have them attack from below and not really move out of the 'lower square'.
DarkNick 09-25-06, 05:17 PM	I don't think he goofed. He just took a ghost and decided that it could see through walls. It may not be RAW, but why can't the dm decide that this is the way it is?
claypigeons 09-25-06, 05:21 PM	I think he goofed. I wouldnt do something like that, so that is the basis for my statement. You provoked and attack of oppurtunity from something that you had no possible way to prevent. Not being able to see something and having no clue that it could even exist and attack from where it did, are 2 completely different things. It would be different if you were moving through a doorway and provoked. But moving through a hallway and getting screwed over.... that's too much.
pres_man 09-25-06, 05:26 PM	You should have had a 50% chance of him missing due to being blind, most likely the ghost was going by sound. I thought there was an example in the DMG of something similiar to this (maybe around incorporeal discussion?). Sound travels through objects quite well so there shouldn't be any problem with that. Edit: Oh yeah, you couldn't have provoked an AoO, because you can't take those against foes that have total concealment (which you had relative to the ghost). Now he could have readied an attack when he heard you get next to him, but no AoO.
Fang3 09-25-06, 05:59 PM	I don't think he goofed. He just took a ghost and decided that it could see through walls. It may not be RAW, but why can't the dm decide that this is the way it is? he goofed, but if you're a goofer too you prolly wont notice.
danielinthewolvesden 09-25-06, 06:09 PM	In that case, the ghost can kill the party at it's leisure, without chance of counter-attack. It makes them FAR too powerful. Sure, it's Ok if the DM does so, but that encounter just went up by about 3 ECL's. If not more.
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 07:16 PM	You must mean a Spectre. Ghosts don't drain levels with their touches. The spectre couldn't have made an AoO on you, but it could have used a readied action, which would have had much the same consequences. Incorporeal creatures can't see through walls, but they can sense things that are adjacent to them while they are inside of solid objects. Those creatures still get total concealment, however.
DarkNick 09-25-06, 07:21 PM	I think he goofed. I wouldnt do something like that, so that is the basis for my statement. You provoked and attack of oppurtunity from something that you had no possible way to prevent. Not being able to see something and having no clue that it could even exist and attack from where it did, are 2 completely different things. It would be different if you were moving through a doorway and provoked. But moving through a hallway and getting screwed over.... that's too much. Yeah, I agree with this. Earlier I did say I thought it was a pretty mean trick. I was comming from the point of view that I think it should be possible.
PhaedrusXY 09-25-06, 08:31 PM	In that case, the ghost can kill the party at it's leisure, without chance of counter-attack. It makes them FAR too powerful. What in the 9 hells are you talking about? The spectre gets one attack for free. After that, the party can just huddle up and pound it everytime it comes out of the wall to attack. If the PCs are so low leveled that they can't take a single hit from the thing, then they shouldn't be fighting it at all. There isn't a big difference between giving the spectre an AoO (wrong) and the spectre getting a free attack during a surprise round (right). In many situations, spectres and other incorporeal undead often get a suprise round and one "free" attack. This is implied in the description of their tactics, and also was illustrated in the picture of Krusk being surprized by the wraiths. Incorporeal creatures are hard to spot, and often get the "drop" on mortals. That is just inherent in their nature, and it is factored into their challenge ratings. If you aren't playing that part of them up, then you as a DM are making them weaker than they are supposed to be.
grelna 09-26-06, 12:07 AM	From the SRDIncorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. They move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground. They can pass through solid objects at will, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter. Incorporeal creatures hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below).So sure, it could have heard you. In fact, if the GM wanted to explain it away, it heard your groups long before you got anywhere near it and then hid in the wall waiting for you to pass by. GM monsters make Listen checks automatically, if the GM wants them to.What in the 9 hells are you talking about? The spectre gets one attack for free. After that, the party can just huddle up and pound it everytime it comes out of the wall to attack. If the PCs are so low leveled that they can't take a single hit from the thing, then they shouldn't be fighting it at all.Of course, it's not limited to the one wall. It could come out of the floor (very, very bad for you guys, as it could get really good cover bonuses), the ceiling (which would be stupid), or the wall on the other side of the corridor. Those things are particularly nasty when they don't try to take you down all at once but plink away when the party is trying to rest. As undead, they don't need sleep and every level they drain heals them. You didn't state what level your party is, so it's hard to evaluate how fair this was. If this event was a PC killer and you didn't have any reason to know Specters or Ghosts were around, then yes, it was unfair. GMs shouldn't throw things against PCs that can kill them without giving warning, at least not until the PCs are fairly high level. But if you lived through it and defeated the thing, then so what? It's not as if it's hard to get those levels back. 3.5 Ed. is a hell of a lot more forgiving that way than 2nd Ed. was.
Aiaru 09-26-06, 01:51 AM	From the SRDSo sure, it could have heard you. In fact, if the GM wanted to explain it away, it heard your groups long before you got anywhere near it and then hid in the wall waiting for you to pass by. GM monsters make Listen checks automatically, if the GM wants them to.. So what's the DC of a listen check made through 1-2 feet of solid stone? :D
KurenaiYami 09-26-06, 02:04 AM	So what's the DC of a listen check made through 1-2 feet of solid stone? :D Not sure, but the ghost gets a +2 on the check.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 03:28 AM	As a DM, this kind of encounter is unfair unless it is a climactic encounter. Those should be somewhat difficult. Yes it is a valid and realistic tactic for an incoporeal undead to use. No, it is not fair as a standard encounter. This particular type of encounter renders the undead pretty much immune to any attack the PCs throw at it. Even turning won't work. Of course the PCs can protect themselves (Wall of Force and similar) but even those are limited and only available to higher level groups. Here, the DM's goof was tossing in this as the opener to the encounter. If the spectre used its incoporeal abilities to escape or manuever to a better position, that's fine. However, to keep things fair (and thus fun) the spectre needs to be exposed. Like I said, it's not realistic, but it gives the PCs a chance to beat it.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 09:27 AM	I don't think he goofed. He just took a ghost and decided that it could see through walls. It may not be RAW, but why can't the dm decide that this is the way it is? The DM is free to do this, of course, but granting a ghost the ability to make an AoO from inside a solid object where it is entirely safe from reprisals and where the PC cannot see it to avoid said AoO makes it far, far more powerful and should substantially increase the CR of the creature. As a DM I am free to give kobolds DR 50/kittens, but if I don't adjust thier CR accordingly I am being very unfair to my players. 'Sides, allowing it to see from inside the wall is not only not allowed by the RAW it is specifically disallowed by it. It is a major change and should require much consideration as to its potential ramifications, which does not seem to be the case here.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 09:31 AM	...As a DM I am free to give kobolds DR 50/kittens... Thereby making a kobold a CR 1 creature, and possibly one for an adult-oriented game. "Oh no, a kobold, what do we do?" "Don't worry, just throw ***** at it!"
Kradlo 09-26-06, 10:08 AM	The DM is free to do this, of course, but granting a ghost the ability to make an AoO from inside a solid object where it is entirely safe from reprisals and where the PC cannot see it to avoid said AoO makes it far, far more powerful and should substantially increase the CR of the creature. As a DM I am free to give kobolds DR 50/kittens, but if I don't adjust thier CR accordingly I am being very unfair to my players. 'Sides, allowing it to see from inside the wall is not only not allowed by the RAW it is specifically disallowed by it. It is a major change and should require much consideration as to its potential ramifications, which does not seem to be the case here. Sulaco is absolutely right. If the GM gave the ghost/spectre the ability to see through solid objects while inside them (the only way it could make an AoO from inside the wall), that will substantially affect it's effectiveness in combat, and should increase the CR of the creature. Fortunately, my characters often carry bags of kittens with them for situations described above. You never know when these things will come in handy. :P
danielinthewolvesden 09-26-06, 10:46 AM	What in the 9 hells are you talking about? The spectre gets one attack for free. After that, the party can just huddle up and pound it everytime it comes out of the wall to attack. Nope. The Spectre just goes back into the wall, gets a bit ahead of the plarty and waits. After a while, the party has to move on. The Spectre gets another AoO, and then hides in the wall again. Repeat over and over and over until the entire part is dead. If the party stops and refuses to move on the spectre just waits for a few hours until the party has to start sleeping.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 11:09 AM	What in the 9 hells are you talking about? The spectre gets one attack for free. After that, the party can just huddle up and pound it everytime it comes out of the wall to attack. The ghost/spectre does not need to exit his space to make an AoO and you don't get to attack back when a creature makes an AoO against you or a party member. The ghost/spectre need never leave his wall to decimate the party.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 11:11 AM	Once they know it is there (after its initial "free" attack), the party could walk down the hallway with readied actions to hit the spectre. Readying is a standard action. They still get move actions. The spectre has to come out of the wall at least partially to attack them, even if it has Spring Attack. So there is no problem. If the DM is saying that the spectre can attack from within the wall, and never come out at all, well that is just being silly of course. How is it hitting people that are on the outside of the wall while staying entirely within the wall? At most, it could only come out partially and get a cover bonus.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 11:21 AM	Once they know it is there (after its initial "free" attack), the party could walk down the hallway with readied actions to hit the spectre. Readying is a standard action. They still get move actions. The spectre has to come out of the wall at least partially to attack them, even if it has Spring Attack. So there is no problem. If the DM is saying that the spectre can attack from within the wall, and never come out at all, well that is just being silly of course. How is it hitting people that are on the outside of the wall while staying entirely within the wall? At most, it could only come out partially and get a cover bonus. The "free attack" you mention is called an "Attack of Opportunity" or "AoO" for short. Ready all the actions you want, it doesn't matter. You don't get to hit back against an AoO and the ghost/spectre does not have to exit his space to make one. This scenario will result in many dead PCs.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 11:24 AM	The "free attack" you mention is called and "Attack of Opportunity" or AoO. Ready all the actions you want, it doesn't matter. You don't get to hit back against an AoO and the ghost/spectre does not have to exit his space to make one. This scenario will result in many dead PCs.Why wouldn't I get to hit him back on his AoO? I readied an action to hit him when he makes an AoO. He can't make an attack on me at all unless he leaves the wall at least partially. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 11:31 AM	Why wouldn't I get to hit him back on his AoO? I readied an action to hit him when he makes an AoO. He can't make an attack on me at all unless he leaves the wall at least partially. Because that's not how the rules work. AoO are free attacks, you cannot ready against them. Originally Posted by SRD An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. You can ready an action to strike it when it makes a normal attack, not an AoO.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 11:34 AM	Because that's not how the rules work. AoO are free attacks, you cannot ready against them.********. Show me a rules quote that even halfway indicates that. You are just making stuff up now. Just be an adult and admit that you're wrong.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 11:41 AM	He's right, you technically cannot. It also goes against the logic of the rules. If you ready an action against an AoO, then you cannot do anything that provokes the AoO, thus you never act because the AoO is never triggered. The only exception I can think of are spells that only have a verbal component. You can cast such a spell and have a readied action against an AoO that you might be able to use, but that is really twisting the rules to be able to do there. The spectre being able to attack endlessly without fear of reprisal is a technically sound strategy, for a retarded, jackhole DM. As I said before, while possible within the rules, that doesn't mean it should happen.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 11:45 AM	He's right, you technically cannot. It also goes against the logic of the rules. If you ready an action against an AoO, then you cannot do anything that provokes the AoO, thus you never act because the AoO is never triggered. The only exception I can think of are spells that only have a verbal component. You can cast such a spell and have a readied action against an AoO that you might be able to use, but that is really twisting the rules to be able to do there.What are you talking about? You didn't really say anything. Quote the rules section that says you can't ready an action against an Attack of Opportunity. I won't hold my breath, because it doesn't exist. Attacks of Opportunity can draw other Attacks of Opportunity. This has been dealt with in the FAQ. If an AoO can draw an AoO, then obviously they don't happen so fast that noone can react to them. Therefore, there is no reason, either "logically" or within the actual rules that prohibits you from readying vs. an AoO.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 11:48 AM	Red herring much? Listen carefully because I am only going to say this once. Of course it doesn't exist BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NEED TO. Think about what I posted above. You would just keep going in circles waiting for that AoO to go off, but since you can't provoke, you can't use your readied action. You know the old term 'mexican standoff'? that's exactly what it is in game terms, readying an action against an AoO.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 11:53 AM	********. Show me a rules quote that even halfway indicates that. You are just making stuff up now. Just be an adult and admit that you're wrong. What the hell? What's with the aggro, man? I try to have a polite discussion and just get insults in return. Man, I just don't get people sometimes.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 11:58 AM	Listen carefully because I am only going to say this once.:heehee Now you listen carefully. You can both move and ready an action in the same round. In order to draw the spectre out and get a hit on it, you'd first ready an action to attack it if it appears. Then you move. Your movement draws an AoO, and you take your readied action. No mexican standoff, unless the spectre decides not to take its AoO. If that happens, good for you. Do the same thing every round. It either swaps blows with you, or decides to leave you alone. Sorry for the hostility, Sulaco, but you did change the basis of your argument in mid-stride when I disproved it. And I hate arguing anything on here, because people are always so bloody stubborn. 99 times out of 100, even if you prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other person will still not admit it. (I also hadn't finished my morning coffee yet. That makes me a bit grumpier than normal. :P )
Sulaco 09-26-06, 12:08 PM	Sorry for the hostility, Sulaco, but you did change the basis of your argument in mid-stride when I disproved it. And I hate arguing anything on here, because people are always so bloody stubborn. 99 times out of 100, even if you prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other person will still not admit it. The basis of my argument remains unchanged: you cannot ready an action against an AoO. You have proved nothing beyond a shadow of a doubt - indeed, you have proved nothing at all - and my pointing out the fact that you are wrong in this instance has nothing to do with stubbornness.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 12:12 PM	:heehee Now you listen carefully. You can both move and ready an action in the same round. In order to draw the spectre out and get a hit on it, you'd first ready an action to attack it if it appears. Then you move. Your movement draws an AoO, and you take your readied action. No mexican standoff, unless the spectre decides not to take its AoO. If that happens, good for you. Do the same thing every round. It either swaps blows with you, or decides to leave you alone. Okay, so you are correct, but you still have a mexican standoff. The spectre (under a DM who would pull this trick) would simply wait and not attack. Someone (probably the PCs) would get bored and move away, thus drawing another AoO, or opening themselves up for more crap later from the spectre. The only choice is to leave the dungeon by whatever the shortest route is. Also, there is the whole thing about hitting the damn thing while it is inside a rock wall. Unless it is a tiny or smaller spectre, it doesn't not need to enter your space and thus (technically) not need to expose itself to you. No matter which way you cut it, you are still looking at a possible TPK here.
Judging Eagle 09-26-06, 12:20 PM	The ghost/spectre does not need to exit his space to make an AoO and you don't get to attack back when a creature makes an AoO against you or a party member. The ghost/spectre need never leave his wall to decimate the party. Phew, that's a relief. I'm sure most parties could survive losing 10% of their total reasources. Unless you meant annihilate or obliterate? Then the DM did goof, badly. Also, as to the whole "provoke/don't provoke" AoOs. I have three words: "Five Foot Step" Just ready an action, then 5-foot step past the section of wall. In any case, this discussin sort of reminds me of how the Robliar's Gambit feat works. You intentionally provoke AoOs to get AoOs on the enemy; or something like that.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 12:25 PM	I already quoted the section of the rules on incorporeal creatures which says that they cannot benefit from total cover while attacking creatures from within a solid object. It is on page one. I see no reason why an exception should be made for AoOs. Attacks of Opportunity are attacks, and the rules state clearly that the creature can only benefit from cover (not total cover) when attacking creatures outside of the object it is in. Noone has yet to provide any evidence at all that you cannot ready an action vs. an Attack of Opportunity. The only argument that you cannot seems to be that an AoO happens too fast to trigger the readied action. Since AoO's can generate more AoO's, then obviously they don't happen so fast that you can't react to them. Heck, you can even ready actions vs. Quickened Spells. I don't think there is anything in the game that you can't ready an action vs., except things that you have no way of percieving. How long or short the trigger action is has nothing at all to do with it.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 12:28 PM	Phew, that's a relief. I'm sure most parties could survive losing 10% of their total reasources. Unless you meant annihilate or obliterate? Then the DM did goof, badly. Yes, I did. SOrry, I forgot how incredibly pedantic some people are around here. I figured, erroneously it would appear, that people would assume the defintion of the word in common modern parlance that means "to destroy a great number or proportion of" not the original, archaic Latin defintion which meant "to kill every tenth person." The worst part is I even considered for a moment changing it when I posted, but I thought that no one would acutally be that didactic. Apparently, I was wrong. Just ready an action, then 5-foot step past the section of wall. Unless you five-foot step the entire length of the corridor it won't work. The ghost/spectre can also move within the wall to ambush you at a different point.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 12:38 PM	I already quoted the section of the rules on incorporeal creatures which says that they cannot benefit from total cover while attacking creatures from within a solid object. It is on page one. I see no reason why an exception should be made for AoOs. Attacks of Opportunity are attacks, and the rules state clearly that the creature can only benefit from cover (not total cover) when attacking creatures outside of the object it is in. Noone has yet to provide any evidence at all that you cannot ready an action vs. an Attack of Opportunity. The only argument that you cannot seems to be that an AoO happens too fast to trigger the readied action. Since AoO's can generate more AoO's, then obviously they don't happen so fast that you can't react to them. Heck, you can even ready actions vs. Quickened Spells. I don't think there is anything in the game that you can't ready an action vs., except things that you have no way of percieving. How long or short the trigger action is has nothing at all to do with it. "For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action." And AoO is not an action under the rules, thus you cannot ready an action in respose to it.
Echo_that_Pains 09-26-06, 12:38 PM	Noone has yet to provide any evidence at all that you cannot ready an action vs. an Attack of Opportunity. The only argument that you cannot seems to be that an AoO happens too fast to trigger the readied action. I have no evidence with me to back me up since all of my material is at home but at least here is a new way to think of it. Instead of thinking of it as an AoO, think of it as an Attack of Opportunity. You strike when the opportunity presents itself. If you ready an attack to counter an AoO, you are destroying the "Opportunity" that might have presented itself. An attack at this point would be an attack and not an AoO. An AoO takes place as the result of an action that might drop the persons guard long enough to strike. Another way to look at it is a "change of focus". When someone leaves a "threatened" space the attacker gets an AoO against them because their back is turned and their defending ability has been reduced. The attacker takes advantage of the "opportunity" that presented itself. Just another way to look at it. If an AoO did provoke an AoO then what purpose would there be for combat? It would literally be person A hitting, then person B hitting, then person A hitting, etc. IMO You CAN ready an attack vs. an AoO, but there could not be an AoO on you if you are ready.
Rhomphaia 09-26-06, 12:40 PM	And so you are changing game definitions to suit your argument now?
Selebius 09-26-06, 12:44 PM	Here's the situation: I know a ghost can MOVE through a wall but can they SEE through the wall? I would think the ghost wouldn't have been able to see me and therefore would not have been able to make an AoO against me. Can anyone clarify the rules on this? Can you point me to a spot in the book that references it? MM IV, page 212: It (the incorporeal creature inside the wall) can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment(50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that it inside an object. So your DM may be right. Sel
Trevan0 09-26-06, 01:09 PM	Me and my buddy are flanking a monster. I ready an action to attack it when it attacks. My buddy runs away full speed like a chicken, provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Do I get my readied action? Anyway, is there a chance the DM rolled a spot check without telling you (the player)? Maybe you guys just failed it.
Echo_that_Pains 09-26-06, 01:31 PM	Me and my buddy are flanking a monster. I ready an action to attack it when it attacks. My buddy runs away full speed like a chicken, provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Do I get my readied action? Yes you do - your running buddy does not. What PhaedrusXY seems to be talking about (and i could be wrong) is if your buddy ready's an attack and THEN runs he will not get an AoO from the AoO. A ready'd action is not held over for countless rounds such as PSI focus is. A ready'd action stays ready until it is either A) Used or B) Another action takes place. From the previous posts it sounds like the course of events would go like this: 1) Ready an action to attack as soon as attacked 2) Continue walking down the dungeon with the party only out in front 3) Spectre attacks through an AoO because you were walking by 4) You use your ready action from a while back at this point to AoO the AoO All that i was saying (or at least trying to) was that you can get an AoO from a readied action against an attack (or a counterattack); however, you can not ready an action, do other things for a while, and then all of the sudden use it later. When someone readies an action against a charge for example, the readied action would include such activities as burrying the base of the pole into the ground, getting your stance ready, etc. By doing any other actoin between this and contact with the charging person the "ready" action against the charge is ruined.
Trevan0 09-26-06, 01:39 PM	My question is more in response to Sulaco's argument that you can't ready an action in response to an AoO. I find that entire concept silly. IMO You CAN ready an attack vs. an AoO, but there could not be an AoO on you if you are ready. Also, let's say you ready an action to attack as soon as a creature takes an Attack of Opportunity on you. Then a creature with reach Awesome Blows you 10' through another creature's threatened area. Your movement provokes an AoO (assuming you leave a threatened square of course), causing your readied action to go off. Granted, this is an extremely contrived situation and unlikely to occur.
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 01:39 PM	You can both move and ready an action in the same round. In order to draw the spectre out and get a hit on it, you'd first ready an action to attack it if it appears. Then you move. Your movement draws an AoO, and you take your readied action. No mexican standoff, unless the spectre decides not to take its AoO. If that happens, good for you. Do the same thing every round. It either swaps blows with you, or decides to leave you alone. I hate to break it to you, but by RAW, you can't. A readied action is only done at the end of your turn (PHB pg 160, text directly under Ready action), not at the beginning. So you could only move (provoking an AoO), then stop and take a readied action. I will respectfully disagree with Sulaco that AoOs never provoke other AoOs, as it does address this in the FAQ (see below). Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity. Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter? Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including provoking additional attacks of opportunity). This can lead to odd situations where as the reason for the original action no longer exists. If this starts to confuse you, just remember that D&D combat is an abstract representation of battle, and not necessarily a precise second-by-second representation of every maneuver. Even the “sequential” nature of D&D combat—I make my attacks, then you make your attacks, then I make my attacks, and so forth—is an artificial creation used to keep combat moving quickly. Using the example you provide, the fighter is indeed allowed to make an attack of opportunity against the cleric. (This attack could, in turn, provoke yet another attack of opportunity from the cleric, but the cleric could make such an attack only if he were allowed more than one attack of opportunity in a single round.) So you would able to to take a ready action to attack the creature when it takes an AoO (or heck, a normal attack) at someone else doing something that provokes an AoO on them (and take you're allowed 5' step and swing - or maybe Turn); of course, if the creature has half a brain, it will see this tactic for what it is, though. But you yourself cannot provoke an AoO from the creature by standing there, waiting for it to attack. (It could attack you normally, though, but then you're golden.) For it's part, it can (as I understand it): 1) Stay inside with total cover and can take a blind normal attack (50% miss chance, assuming it correctly guesses where you are). It has total cover* from you, but you have total concealment* from it (so it cannot make a AoO against you), and not vice versa. If it does attack, it counts as only in Cover for the attack (after the attack, goes back to being in Total Cover. 2) It can partly emerge to see to make an attack (including AoOs) on something next to the object (gaining half cover; it doesn't provoke AoO, but a readied action isn't an AoO) 3) It can completely emerge from the object to attack normally and see stuff further away. (Dereived from the MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 310) *Highlighted so nobody gets confuzzled between cover and concealment Note: the rules in the DMG Incorporeal (pg 294) say creatures can pass through solid objects; the MM says they can but not larger than their space. The DMG says they can be pin-pointed like detecting invisible opponents when in a soild object, but incorporeal creature don't make noise if they don't want to! So some of this might be a DM not reading both/all sources. Additional note: it is possible that the creature was a ghost, and thus could have been either ethereal or incorporeal. The OP is right though, it still wouldn't be able to see him from insdie the wall, even etherally. It also couldn't be standing ethereally outside the wall and affect him even with a ghost-touch weapon when not manifested (ghost touch only works on incorporeal not ethereal). I mention this since it's very easy to get ethereal an incorporeal mixed up. Well, I hope that clears things up a bit, after having to go through three books, the SRD and and the FAQ! Edit: After PhaedrusXY pointed out an error
Echo_that_Pains 09-26-06, 01:45 PM	My hat goes off to you aotrscommander - very well posted and researched! Thank you
Trevan0 09-26-06, 01:54 PM	In defense of PhaedrusXY, here's an opposite view point. The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun This is hardly definitive. You can't take a standard action after your turn is over, so I would interpret it as meaning that the ready action will not trigger during "your turn". Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned. Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. Examining those quots, you can see that "Any time before your next action" could be debated. If you explicitly define "next action" as in "move action/standard action/free action" etc., this creates problems with stunning fist and even the ready action itself. Monk uses stunning fist on NPC. Monk shouts "WOO HOO". This takes a free action. Promptly, his stunning fist ends. Also, character readies an action to attack the ghost when it pops out. He then tells his friends "I'll hit him when he comes out!". His readied action promptly fails. Thus, it is not entirely unbelievable that it could be allowable to ready an action and then move.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 02:22 PM	I hate to break it to you, but by RAW, you can't. A readied action is only done at the end of your turn (PHB pg 160, text directly under Ready action), not at the beginning. So you could only move (provoking an AoO), then stop and take a readied action.I don't have my PHB on me. I don't see anything in the SRD specifying that a readied action can only be done at the end of your turn. For it's part, it can (as I understand it): 1) Stay inside with total cover and can take a blind attack (50% miss chance, assuming it correctly guesses where you are). It has total cover* from you, but you have total concealment* from it, and not vice versa.I already covered this. It can't do this. If it attacks someone outside the object, the most it can benefit from is cover, not full cover. The relevant quoted text is on the first page of this thread. This is the third time I've pointed it out. And AoO is not an action under the rules, thus you cannot ready an action in respose to it.The creature has to come out of the wall partially to attack. I can ready an action for "when I see the creature". You can debate whether or not you have to specify an actual "action" as defined in the game terms or not if you want. I think the trigger that I just specified would be allowed by any DM I've ever played with. Of course, this entire thing about the ghost is hypothetical, as it cannot take Attacks of Opportunity against an enemy with total concealment, as pointed out early in the thread. I just wanted to restate that, in case anyone missed it.
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 02:24 PM	In defense of PhaedrusXY, here's an opposite view point. *snip* Thus, it is not entirely unbelievable that it could be allowable to ready an action and then move. I grant you that the phrasing is a little hazy, but as I recall, generally durations that last from yout initiaive count to the next (like Stunning Fist's stunning) use 'until your next action'. I think the subtlety is that when it says just 'action' it means 'your next turn' and specifies Move, Standard, Full Round, Free, Swift and Immediate where appropriate. In the readied action section, this is made more confusing by 'readied action'. To clarify, I think that is INTENDED by what is written is that 'Action' in these contexts (meaning 'Your Turn') is a seperate entity to 'Move Action', 'Standard Action', 'Full Round Action', 'Free Action', 'Swift Action' and 'Immediate Action', 'Readied Action' is a seperate entity consisting of one 'Move Action', 'Standard Action', 'Free Action' (and possibly 'Swift Action'), with perhaps a 5' step. It would have been better in this sense to say 'turn' not 'action', but I'm sure that was the intention. A 'Readied Action' can be likened to overwatch or similar concepts, where someone is standing, carefully concentrating on one thing/area to react, requiring total concentration. This cannot be done while doing something else (i.e movement), so you couldn't walk down the corridor simultaneously readying. Originally Posted by SRD The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun This is hardly definitive. You can't take a standard action after your turn is over, so I would interpret it as meaning that the ready action will not trigger during "your turn". I thoguht that was fairly definitative myself; you can ready an action at the end of your turn (being the bit at what you do actions when your initative comes up); readying is Standard Action, so all you can do otherwise that round is take a Move, Swift and/or Free Actions, because you're using your Standard Action to ready this round; you can't take a Standard action and then ready. Your readied action lasts until your initative comes up again (your turn) or it is triggered (resetting your initative to just before whatever the trigger condition was).
Sulaco 09-26-06, 02:27 PM	I will respectfully disagree with Sulaco that AoOs never provoke other AoOs, as it does address this in the FAQ (see below). I never said they didn't.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 02:32 PM	My question is more in response to Sulaco's argument that you can't ready an action in response to an AoO. I find that entire concept silly. Also, let's say you ready an action to attack as soon as a creature takes an Attack of Opportunity on you. Then a creature with reach Awesome Blows you 10' through another creature's threatened area. Your movement provokes an AoO (assuming you leave a threatened square of course), causing your readied action to go off. Granted, this is an extremely contrived situation and unlikely to occur. Okay, let's say you get seriously beaten in initiative by your enemy. You all surround him and all but one of you say you are readying your actions to attack if he makes an AoO on PC X (the one iwth the lowest init score so hea acts last). Then PC X leaves a threatened space, you all attack, and now you have all moved up the initiative order to before the enemy and way before where you were? Sorry, but it makes no damned sense at all that you can end up going earlier in the round by waiting longer to attack.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 02:32 PM	A 'Readied Action' can be likened to overwatch or similar concepts, where someone is standing, carefully concentrating on one thing/area to react, requiring total concentration. This cannot be done while doing something else (i.e movement), so you couldn't walk down the corridor simultaneously readying.This is your interpretation, and I don't agree with it, or see how the rules indicate that it is correct. Readying an action is a Standard Action. You get a Standard Action and Move action during your turn. Nothing in the text of Readying an Action (in the SRD, at least) says that you have to Move then Ready, and not Ready then Move. Okay, let's say you get seriously beaten in initiative by your enemy. You all surround him and all but one of you say you are readying your actions to attack if he makes an AoO on PC X (the one iwth the lowest init score so hea acts last). Then PC X leaves a threatened space, you all attack, and now you have all moved up the initiative order to before the enemy and way before where you were? Sorry, but it makes no damned sense at all that you can end up going earlier in the round by waiting longer to attack.The same thing would happen if you just readied actions to attack when the creature attacks, and I hope we all agree that this is perfectly legal. Edit: Actually, I am wrong. The above statement isn't exactly true.If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.So in my example, since the readied action occurred during the next round, the "ready-ers" would not get their normal action for that round. So I have to admit, Sulaco's example is a bit odd. I don't think it is prohibited by the rules, however. As with all readied actions, you are taking a gamble. If the creature does not take its Attack of Opportunity, for whatever reason, you have wasted your turn readying.
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 02:39 PM	I never said they didn't. The "free attack" you mention is called an "Attack of Opportunity" or "AoO" for short. Ready all the actions you want, it doesn't matter. You don't get to hit back against an AoO and the ghost/spectre does not have to exit his space to make one. This scenario will result in many dead PCs. Got the wrong end of the stick that post then, sorry! Of course, this entire thing about the ghost is hypothetical, as it cannot take Attacks of Opportunity against an enemy with total concealment, as pointed out early in the thread. I just wanted to restate that, in case anyone missed it. *Swears copiously* You are right of course. I shall edit the post to be correct...(changes in bold) 1) Stay inside with total cover and can take a blind normal attack (50% miss chance, assuming it correctly guesses where you are). It has total cover* from you, but you have total concealment* from it (so it cannot make a AoO against you), and not vice versa. If it does attack, it counts as only in Cover for the attack (after the attack, goes back to being in Total Cover. 2) It can partly emerge to see to make an attack (including AoOs) on something next to the object (gaining half cover; it doesn't provoke AoO, but a readied action isn't an AoO) Sorry, got to for the moment as my sister is whinging about using the computer for non D&D purposes...(sigh).
Sulaco 09-26-06, 02:47 PM	The creature has to come out of the wall partially to attack. I can ready an action for "when I see the creature". You can debate whether or not you have to specify an actual "action" as defined in the game terms or not if you want. I think the trigger that I just specified would be allowed by any DM I've ever played with. No, it doesn't "(have) to come out of the wall partially to attack." There is nothign in the description of the AoO that states it must do so. I agree that logically this is teh case, but the D&D rules are often at-odds with logic. "An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round." In essence, the normal combat round "pauses" momentarily while the AoO is resolved, and that "pause" precludes resolving readied actions as those are part of the normal round structure.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 03:01 PM	The same thing would happen if you just readied actions to attack when the creature attacks, and I hope we all agree that this is perfectly legal. Not quite. By being able to act on the enemy's AoO you essentially get an extra round of attacks in on it, as illustrated below: Scenario A: Normal structure Round1: Enemy goes You ready Round 2: Move up init order Take readied attack Enemy goes Scenario B: Taking an attack on enemy's AoO Round 1: Enemy acts You Ready Slow guy provokes AoO Enemy takes AoO Move up init order Take readied attack Round 2: Attack enemy Enemy acts
1CentSage 09-26-06, 03:18 PM	Back on the original topic: A situation like that can only occur if initiative was rolled before, which it seems to me was not. There are no AoOs out of combat. The formally correct way to proceed would have been to roll for surprise when the ghost attacked and then proceed as usual. If the ghost could/should have been able to detect you is another question. The DM could just make up a "ghost" that can do so and that in itself would not be remarkable, however the way he used it it was not very subtle to say the least. On AoOs and readied actions: I did not follow the argument in all its details so far, but from the description of the ready action in the PHB I take it that you set the ingame conditions under which you will take your ready action. Sometimes this might coincide with a game mechanical condition (e.g. ready to attack when enemy casts a spell), but I would say you could not generally ready an attack against AoOs. So for example I see no problem with the rules if you ready an action against "attack by a melee opponent X" then take your move action and if this move provokes an attack of opportunity from said opponent take your ready action. This however would not necessarily keep the opponent from attacking you and it would in this case also end your move. Just another oppinion. Oh and Sulaco, I do not understand your scenario B. If you take your ready action at any point after your opponent acted normally (not his AoO) you will never rise your initiative count above his, except if you wait until the next round and the specified condition occurs before/when he acts. But this is then as normal. Tell me if I missed the point somewhere.
Sulaco 09-26-06, 03:30 PM	A situation like that can only occur if initiative was rolled before, which it seems to me was not. There are no AoOs out of combat. Ah, a very good point that all of us missed. Nice catch. Oh and Sulaco, I do not understand your scenario B. If you take your ready action at any point after your opponent acted normally (not his AoO) you will never rise your initiative count above his, except if you wait until the next round and the specified condition occurs before/when he acts. But this is then as normal. Tell me if I missed the point somewhere. That's my point. When the enemy is making an AoO he is not acting on his turn, but the description of the Ready action reads that you are placed ahead in the init order of the character you took the readied action against. Allowing a Ready against an AoO royally buggers the whole system up.
albinomonkeyking 09-26-06, 03:43 PM	Wow, well I have very little input to add, it seems everyone has jumped in on this debate. I will, however, say that the whole 'readied action' jumping your initiative bit was confusing until your explanation Sulaco, That's my point. When the enemy is making an AoO he is not acting on his turn, but the description of the Ready action reads that you are placed ahead in the init order of the character you took the readied action against. Allowing a Ready against an AoO royally buggers the whole system up. I get it now! And after reading that, it seems from a mechanical standpoint that Sulaco is more correct, because no one wants to F up the system. Anyway, I am glad everyone has returned to a civil state of mind, quite a lot of intelligent, well thought out posts. Bravo!
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 04:00 PM	I don't have my PHB on me. I don't see anything in the SRD specifying that a readied action can only be done at the end of your turn. Very quickly, before CSI Miami: The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one begins. Readying is a Standard Action. It does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity (thought the action that you dy might do so.) (Emphasis mine)
1CentSage 09-26-06, 04:02 PM	That's my point. When the enemy is making an AoO he is not acting on his turn, but the description of the Ready action reads that you are placed ahead in the init order of the character you took the readied action against. Allowing a Ready against an AoO royally buggers the whole system up. Actuall I think this is not true. The description in the PHB on p.160 says under "initiative consequences of readying" that "Your initiative count becomes the count on which you took the readied action". I think you are referring to the more or less same sentence on the same page that explains the consequences of interrupting another person's actions. It is correct that if you take your ready action on another person's turn the readied action comes before the action that triggered it and therefore your initiative count is set right above that of the other person. However the phrase I quoted is also explicitly stated there and someone making an attack of opportunity acts out of the initiative order. So in your scenario your initiative would be set to just before/after (THAT can be argued) the guy that triggered the AoO of your enemy. Edit: I see that there can be two contradictory statements in the description if one allows readying also against AoOs, so one might say in this case contradiction=no go and I can not give more hard evidence than I have so far to support my point or outrule your interpretation. However, I think that the interpretation I offered above is still possible within the rules and is more usefull since it avoids all problems with AoOs, perfectly describes what actually happens ingame and appeals also to (my) common sense without restricting the options for readying as would be the case otherwise (the example given in my first post would no longer work although it would seem perfectly viable from an ingame perspective). Also as I said earlier you ready against ingame conditions like an attack. If you exclude AoOs you then have to distinguish between actions that are the same in any respect except that if it is treated mechanically as an AoO you can not take your readied action, which would be kind of unsatisfactory for me.
kelvinaw273 09-26-06, 05:11 PM	I haven't read most of this thread because it seems to drift off-topic. A ghost is ethereal, if I recall correctly. An ethereal creature can see and interact with the material plane from the near ethereal only dimly, and inanimate objects that have no emotional resonance cannot be seen from the ethereal at all. Far from being blinded by the wall, the ghost may not even have been aware that the wall was there ... But they would have felt your character's presence, certainly!
Trevan0 09-26-06, 05:13 PM	I thoguht that was fairly definitative myself; you can ready an action at the end of your turn (being the bit at what you do actions when your initative comes up); readying is Standard Action, so all you can do otherwise that round is take a Move, Swift and/or Free Actions, because you're using your Standard Action to ready this round; you can't take a Standard action and then ready. Your readied action lasts until your initative comes up again (your turn) or it is triggered (resetting your initative to just before whatever the trigger condition was). Okay, I had some slight confusion as to what you were alluding to. You're saying the Ready action can not trigger until after your turn. I thought for some reason, you were saying that you could not take the move action necessary to provoke the AoO after readying the Attack Action. Okay, I can accept that. And I understand Sulaco's reasoning as to maybe why you SHOULDN'T be able to ready against AoO's, I have yet to see any rules that say you CAN NOT ready against AoO's. If AoO's can interrupt AoO's, then readied actions can too.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 05:19 PM	Very quickly, before CSI Miami: The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one begins. Readying is a Standard Action. It does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity (thought the action that you dy might do so.) (Emphasis mine)Wow... how did I miss that? That is in the SRD also. I just had my blinders on, I guess. :embarrass Ok, so my scenario wouldn't work for one person. Two people (or more) could do it together, though. One would move and act as "bait", and the others would ready actions to use ranged weapons, spells, etc, to attack anything that attacks "the bait". No, it doesn't "(have) to come out of the wall partially to attack." There is nothign in the description of the AoO that states it must do so. I agree that logically this is teh case, but the D&D rules are often at-odds with logic.No, it doesn't say so in the AoO section. It says it has to come out of the wall to attack in the section on the Incorporeal subtype. Here it is again: An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An attack of opportunity is still an attack, and so is no exception to this rule.
danielinthewolvesden 09-26-06, 06:09 PM	Ok, so my scenario wouldn't work for one person. Two people (or more) could do it together, though. One would move and act as "bait", and the others would ready actions to use ranged weapons, spells, etc, to attack anything that attacks "the bait". Only until combat is over. If the "ghost" moves quite a bit away, then the DM can rule everyone drops out of Init, then no more readied actions.
Ironferret 09-26-06, 06:09 PM	He might have overdone it, but also has anyone thought about the possibility of the STATUS QUO maybe the thing was their all along and you jest stumbled into it. I know even in this style of DMing you have to think about your PCs it is not him against you sometimes everyone needs to be reminded of this simple truth. Talk to him work it out and for F-en sake have fun!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: So Said the GoldFerret.:thumbsup: :smirk:
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 06:19 PM	Wow... how did I miss that? That is in the SRD also. I just had my blinders on, I guess. :embarrass No worries! I missed the bit on AoO and concealment, after all! Ok, so my scenario wouldn't work for one person. Two people (or more) could do it together, though. One would move and act as "bait", and the others would ready actions to use ranged weapons, spells, etc, to attack anything that attacks "the bait". Yes, I think I said that earlier. However, re-analysing, this would actually be unnessecary (see below). So to recap ('cos it always helps!) *cracks knuckles* Note that this changes what I wrote eariler. While completely inside the wall/object the incorporeal creature has Total Cover from anyone outside(1). It can't be attacked(2). It can't see out of a solid object(3), so it can't see you. If you are next to the wall and adjacent to it, it is aware of your position automatically(4) otherwise it can locate your position via nonvisual methods (5) (e.g. Listen checks, upon which it receives a +2 circumstance bonus(6)). Once roughly aware of your position can make a normal attack. You have Total Concealment realtive to it(7), so it's attack has a 50% Miss Chance. It cannot make an AoO because a) you have Total Concealment(8) and b) because you can't make AoOs out of combat (though I can't confirm that, 1CentSage if you could give me a reference). If you haven't got a readied action, it will get a free surprise hack which you can't do anything about. Once proper combat starts, it can either continue to swat out you blindly. If you take a Ready Action (e.g. 'smack it when it trys to attack me/my mate'), when it makes the attack that triggers your ready action, it only has Cover(9) relative to you for the duration of this attack, after which it goes back to Total Cover. It still cannot make AoOs (it still has Total Concealment to you). It can also completely emerge from the wall(10) , where upon it can see farther than the object it is in, and can make attacks normally and you can attack it normally. You both lose Cover or Concealment to each other at this point. It doesn't specifically say so (so I was technically in error before), but it would not be unreasonable to allow it to partially emerge, retaining it's Cover bonus to AC, but being able to attack and be attacked (including AoOs) as normal (basically, it sticks it's head and arms out to see, so you can see it's head and arms to hit them). [1] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 311 top paragraph [2] PHB Total Cover pg 152 [3] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 310 bottom line [5] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 311 bottom paragraph [5] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 311 bottom paragraph [6] DMG Incorporeal Section pg 295 paragraph 5 [7] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 311 bottom paragraph [8] PHB Total Concealment pg 152 [9] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 311 bottom line [10] MM Incorporeal subtype section pg 310 bottom line Side Note 1: the rules in the DMG Incorporeal (pg 294) say creatures can pass through solid objects; the MM (pg 310)says they can but not any larger than their space. The DMG says they can be pin-pointed like detecting invisible opponents when in a soild object, but incorporeal creature don't make noise if they don't want to (MM pg 311)! Side Note 2: Ethereal creatures cannot see through soild objects either and they block sound as well (Etherealness DMG pg 293). If it was ethereal in the wall, it could not see you, nor even hear you (it would have to manifest and become Incorporeal to do be able to hear you, assuming it was a Ghost). In any case, while ethereal, it cannot affect you in any way (Ghost Touch weapons only work on Incorporeal creatures and vice versa). If it was next to the wall rather than in it, it could see and hear you (once you were within 60'). As a Ghost's Manifestation is a Standard action, though, this would take it's surprise round if it attempted to manifest next to you to attack (so no surprise attack); if it manfested in the wall, you are back to the original scenario. Phew! Clearer now? (I know it is to me!) So in answer to your inital statement, OP, you DM may be in the clear, assuming he remembered that neither incorporeal nor ethereal creatures can see out of objects and made his miss chance roll. But from the sounds of it he did not, so did indeed, goof.
PhaedrusXY 09-26-06, 06:34 PM	I think you got your summary right aotrscommander, except for one thing. In the incorporeal subtype description, it says that although the creature can't see out from a solid object, it can detect creatures that are adjacent to it. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge.It doesn't say "how" it can sense them, it just says it can. :P Also, if the characters just move more than 5 feet away from the wall, the creature would be forced to emerge from its cover to attack them and would then be exposed for the rest of the round to their attacks (unless it had Spring Attack, like the Dread Wraith). Of course... it could just attack them from the floor, instead to get around this, unless they are flying/hovering.
aotrscommander 09-26-06, 06:43 PM	I think you got your summary right aotrscommander, except for one thing. In the incorporeal subtype description, it says that although the creature can't see out from a solid object, it can detect creatures that are adjacent to it. It doesn't say "how" it can sense them, it just says it can. :P Also, if the characters just move more than 5 feet away from the wall, the creature would be forced to emerge from its cover to attack them and would then be exposed for the rest of the round to their attacks (unless it had Spring Attack, like the Dread Wraith). Of course... it could just attack them from the floor, instead to get around this, unless they are flying/hovering. To your first point, yes (though this is partially in conflict with the DMG). To the second, I sort of assumed that was a given*, but I probalby shoul have explictly stated though. I'll tell you what, I'll edit the post! *unless it had reach and used standard invisbility locating techniques of course!
StormKnight 09-26-06, 08:36 PM	I agree that logically this is teh case, but the D&D rules are often at-odds with logic. Yes. Its a terrible shame that games of D&D don't have some sort of referee like, game controlling player who can make the calls needed to ensure that everything in the game works smoothly, and you don't end up with an illogical situation just because its impossible and undesireable for a set of rules to cover every conceivable occurence. Maybe they'll add something like that in 4th edition.
styphon 09-26-06, 09:23 PM	Thanks for all the input guys. Just to clarify: we did know there was an incorporeal creature around as we had been fighting it. I just didn't think that something could do an AoO against you if it couldn't see you. I have max ranks in tumble and I tumble all over the place constantly to avoid AoOs. (I'm a scout too so I have to move for my skirmish ability) There is NO way I would have simply walked down that hall if I thought there was any danger of an attack. I looked up the description of total concealment and it specifically states you cannot make an AoO against something that has total concealment against you, even if you're aware what square they're in. So unless my GM simply chooses to overrule the book, I think I should be okay. I let her know about this and she said she'd research and get back to me. I guess I'll just have to cross my fingers.
styphon 09-26-06, 09:28 PM	So in answer to your inital statement, OP, you DM may be in the clear, assuming he remembered that neither incorporeal nor ethereal creatures can see out of objects and made his miss chance roll. But from the sounds of it he did not, so did indeed, goof. Just for clarification: When you say "in the clear" you're referring to allowing the spectre to make an attack right? not make an AoO? And no, there was no miss chance roll made.
aotrscommander 09-27-06, 04:41 AM	Just for clarification: When you say "in the clear" you're referring to allowing the spectre to make an attack right? not make an AoO? And no, there was no miss chance roll made. If the spectre was inside the wall when it attacked you, it would have had to make a normal attack (not an AoO) with a 50% Miss Chance. (This is of course assuming it used Listen to move up to where you generally were before it's got it's standing-next-to-an-object-sense kicking in to automatically locate your space.) So, she did indeed get it wrong in this case (which I suspected).
Sulaco 09-27-06, 09:48 AM	And I understand Sulaco's reasoning as to maybe why you SHOULDN'T be able to ready against AoO's, I have yet to see any rules that say you CAN NOT ready against AoO's. If AoO's can interrupt AoO's, then readied actions can too. Just cos something isn't explicitly disallowed does not mean it is implicitly allowed. At best it is an ill-defined grey-area that falls to the DM's discretion.
Sulaco 09-27-06, 09:56 AM	Yes. Its a terrible shame that games of D&D don't have some sort of referee like, game controlling player who can make the calls needed to ensure that everything in the game works smoothly, and you don't end up with an illogical situation just because its impossible and undesireable for a set of rules to cover every conceivable occurence. Maybe they'll add something like that in 4th edition. Yes. It's a terrible shame that people have to be snarky and sarcastic, especially when they are missing the very simple point that we are discussing the RAW, not possible DM interpretations thereof, in order to all approach the situation from a common baseline and to determine whether this DM's particular interpretation was fair within the rules or in violation of them. Maybe they'll add something like that in Grow Up edition.
StormKnight 09-27-06, 11:16 AM	...especially when they are missing the very simple point that we are discussing the RAW, not possible DM interpretations thereof, in order to all approach the situation from a common baseline and to determine whether this DM's particular interpretation was fair within the rules or in violation of them. Actually, this particular tangent had nothing to do with this particular DM's interpretation, since it was on the purely hypothetical line of whether or not you can use a readied attack against the ghost as it makes an AoO out of the wall. Now, I admit I have not gone through the entire text of all the possible books checking for this, but oddly enough I am willing to bet that no where in the RAW is a piece of text entitled "Readied actions against incorporeal creatures inside objects making attacks of opportunity". This is fine. This is not a wargame. This is an RPG. It is intended to allow anything that the DMs and the players can imagine. This is a game where the rules cannot and should not cover every possible situation. If they did, we wouldn't need a DM. Anyone with an WIS score higher than Belkar's should be able to look at this situation and say: 1) Unless the person is right next to the wall, some part of the ghost must leave the wall in order to attack. 2) If you can get to some part of the ghost, you can hit that part. 3) Therefore, when part of the ghost leaves the wall to attack, there is a possibility that that part of the ghost can get hit. Since the rules are solid, we can then easily figure out which parts to use to cover this. You clearly can't just attack the ghost, since its not visible on your turn. However, this is one of the exact things readied actions are designed for; getting around the static turn system to allow you to prepare responses to actions. Obviously a readied action is the way to go. Logically, you can also decide that since not all of the ghost is available to hit, it should have at least partial cover against the attack. There you go, you can now handle this issue. Of course, if a player says "I am creeping down the hall with my back pressed firmly against the wall, readying an action to attack the ghost when it appears", it makes every bit of sense that the ghost can tap him in the back without ever presenting a target. I am exceedingly sick of some D&D players who cannot seem to grasp the basic idea that the rules are not the be all and all of the game. A good game is not supported by ensuring that every decision adheres to RAW, a good game is supported by intelligent and creative decision making on the part of the DM. This is what experienced players should be teaching and encouraging, not slavish devotion to rules-lawyering every situation, or pointless griping that D&D "isn't logical" because the rules don't hold up for every situation in the world.
Sulaco 09-27-06, 11:24 AM	I am exceedingly sick of some D&D players who cannot seem to grasp the basic idea that the rules are not the be all and all of the game. A good game is not supported by ensuring that every decision adheres to RAW, a good game is supported by intelligent and creative decision making on the part of the DM. This is what experienced players should be teaching and encouraging, not slavish devotion to rules-lawyering every situation, or pointless griping that D&D "isn't logical" because the rules don't hold up for every situation in the world. And I am exceedingly sick of rude and presumptuous people who make assumptions about what others "cannot seem to grasp" and who make erroneous accusations of "slavish devotion to rules-lawyering every situation" based solely on a few message board posts and who refuse to be polite or civil towards anyone who dares to voice an opinion that differs from their own.
Chemlak 09-27-06, 12:11 PM	I would just like to say that, having read most (not all, admittedly) of the posts here, I would like to post my own thoughts on Readying Vs. AoO. Please note, IDHTBIFOM, as I am at work, so this is an attempt to apply logic to a ruleset that I know fairly well (not brilliantly, though don't tell my players that). I do not believe that the Ready action requires the Readying player to specifically define a game-rule event that will provoke an AoO. IIRC, one of the examples about readying (and certainly one that I like to use) is "I'll shoot with my crossbow the first thing that opens the door that doesn't knock on it in the way we agreed earlier." If you wouldn't let someone ready that action, then I think there's a big flaw in your DMing. You do not know on what initiative count the door will open. The important parts of this Ready are "shoot" "first thing" "opens the door" "doesn't knock properly". The rest is just window dressing. Admitedly a sensible player would also add (after the word door) "from the other side", just to get round some evil DMing. Assuming the character continues to Ready that same action round after round, when that door gets opened, the character gets to shoot the first thing that opens the door. Probably the first thing he sees when the door is opened, but that's a case by case. If another member of his party opens the door (from the other side) without declaring that he was knocking properly first, I'd say "Oops, Crossbow bolt to the face." If it's a bad guy, bad guy gets crossbow bolt to the face. Even functioning outside the round structure, I would let this happen. Combat effectively begins one round early. Everyone rolls init. Say Door opener wins init with 18 and Crossbow guy loses with 8. Round 1: (18)Door opener moves to door. (8)Crossbow Readies action. Round 2: (18)Door opener opens door. (18+)Crossbow shootshiminnaface. Crossbow's initiative resets to 18+, Missing his action on round 2 at initiative 8, as per the rules. In round three, everything goes normally, with Crossbow going on 18+, and Door opener going on 18. The important thing here, though, is that as the DM, I would not actually ask for initiative until Round 2 and automatically set Crossbow's initiative to one higher (or + higher, as I do) than Door Opener's. Because I already knew what was going to happen. Please note that, right up until Crossbow actually pulls the trigger, I am well within my rights to ignore the round structure completely. And I would, because it would speed things up. Therefore, until the attack roll by Crossbow is made no 'combat' actions have taken place. The one thing defined in the Ready action that could be a combat action is "opens the door". But it didn't have to be. I find it extremely odd, given all that, to refuse the Readied action. "Attack the prisoner is he tries to attack the priest." Again, I can't think of a good reason to refuse that as a Readied action. So, the priest starts to cast a spell, either fails to cast defensively or fluffs the Concentration check, and provokes an AoO. Which the prisoner chooses to take. According to some of the reasoning that has been given in this thread, the priest's guard CANNOT take his readied action. Why not? The conditions have been met. Prisoner attack priest. I challenge you to find the bit in the rules where it says "When the conditions occur, the readied action happens, unless the trigger happens to be an AoO." As to what 'initiative count' this would happen on (again, I can see how this particular scenario could be played out without initiative until the moment the guard attacks), the answer is 'The priest's init'. That's the count on which the action that triggers the readied action happens. Simple. The "you can't ready to attack against an AoO you provoke" is quite right, with one problem. Readying happens at the end of your turn. After movement and any free/swift actions you may have taken. I take a readied action "Hit Bad Guy with my rhythm stick if he attacks me" at the end of my turn. About half way through the round (before Bad Guy's go), I decide to cast an immediate spell, fluff the Concentration check, provoke an AoO. Bad Guy attacks me. Readied Action Triggers. All the conditions are met. Nowhere does it say "You can only take a Readied action on the initiative count of the person whose action triggers your Readied one." (I hope - I've never heard of a rule that clunky). I could come up with situations like this all day. It has been stated that just because the rules do not explicitly disallow something does not mean that it is implicitly allowed. Agreed. But IIRC, the Ready Action text refers to events, not actions (again, I might be wrong) triggering the Readied action. And if they don't, they should. That's the thing. We, as responsible players of this great game, are sometimes required to use our best judgement. If the rules are unclear on something, we make a judgement call and get on with it. You can go on for hours saying "Rule such-and-such implies that you cannot do so-and-so. Ever." But as soon as I come up with a reasonable situation in which so-and-so should be able to happen, then the implications of the rule need to be rethought. Also, can someone check the books and confirm to me that an AoO is listed as "Not an action" as someone claimed earlier? I would list it as a "Free Action" personally.
Sulaco 09-27-06, 12:25 PM	Also, can someone check the books and confirm to me that an AoO is listed as "Not an action" as someone claimed earlier? I would list it as a "Free Action" personally. An AoO is not listed as a free action. Also, free actions are actions you perform on your own turn; an AoO, by defintion, occurs on someone else's turn. Also, "free actions don’t take any time at all" so, technically, if an AoO were a fee action one could not attack with a readied action an enemy making an AoO cos there was literally no time in which to react. You know what's funny, the more I read and dicuss this topic the more I actually like the idea of readying to attack an enemy making an AoO on a comrade, even though I believe the rules preclude it. It has a good "I got your back, mate" feel to it. So despite my apparent lack of wisdom, inability to grasp the basic idea that the rules are not the be all and all of the game, lack of intelligent and creative decision making, and slavish devotion to rules-lawyering every situation :rolleyes: I might actually start allowing this in my game.
1CentSage 09-27-06, 01:35 PM	Also, "free actions don’t take any time at all" so, technically, if an AoO were a fee action one could not attack with a readied action an enemy making an AoO cos there was literally no time in which to react. While it bears no real importance to the topic, I would slightly disagree. Mechanically it is irrelevant if an action takes time or not. As an example, you can ready an action against someone casting a spell and could take it also if said spell was quickened which makes it a free (no time action) So despite my apparent lack of wisdom, inability to grasp the basic idea that the rules are not the be all and all of the game, lack of intelligent and creative decision making, and slavish devotion to rules-lawyering every situation :rolleyes: I might actually start allowing this in my game. Was it despite or because ...? Sorry, could not resist. Just kidding ;) ... I decide to cast an immediate spell, fluff the Concentration check, provoke an AoO Correct me if I am wrong but immediate spells actions are similar to "free action spells" like quickened spells in that they do not provoke AoOs. Nevertheless an immediate action that provokes an AoO is the only problematic example I encountered so far since it effectively makes you take your readied action before your action that triggered the AoO: You take immediate action, enemy takes AoO that happens at the same time (it might foil your immediate action) which lets you take your readied action while (or actually before) finishing your immediate action. This is kind of weird. The problem here is that immediate actions were introduced long after the rules for AoOs were set and the situation described above is very special (immediate action that draws AoO+ readied action against action that opponent uses for AoO), so I would prefer to apply a houserule for that case and otherwise go with what I stated before. One more thing: As I stated before the game mechanical term ready action makes no sense out of combat. However that does not mean that you can not wait for someone to open the door and shoot him. Depending on the DM he would either let you go first (automatic surprise) or determine surprise for the opponent (not you) and then start initiative. To use the actual mechanics of readying without initiative is not good since it can lead to paradox situations if several people run around whith "continual" ready actions. Consider what happens if the guy opening the door (for the example it is actually better if he just moves around a corner) has readied an action to likewise shoot you. Who goes first then? Probably you roll for surprise then, which takes you back to the normal procedure.
PhaedrusXY 09-27-06, 05:18 PM	The entire idea of running things differently whether someone is "in combat" or "out of combat" is very silly. If a DM insisted that I couldn't ready an action because I was "out of combat", then I'd tell him that my character thought there might be an invisible attacker nearby, and he was declaring Dodge on it... Blammo, I'm in combat. Yes, it is stupid, and petty. But so is the DM saying "You can't ready, because you're not in combat". (Ok, I probably wouldn't really do this, but I'd point out that I had the option to. And I would tell the DM what I thought about the "not in combat" concept.)
Jinta 09-27-06, 05:21 PM	OK, there's been a rather astounding amount of information left out of this post. So here's some more detail. The players (most 6th level) are in an ancient temple to a forgotten god, where they fully expect to encounter some astonishingly powerful artifacts, which they expect to aquire. The specter in question has appeared to them before twice. Both times, she appeared directly before them, looked at them for a while, and then went away. They were in very different places for each of the first two encounters, yet, they didn't come across her doing her business. They didn't happen to find her when they turned a corner. She appeared, directly before them.... almost like she knew right where to find them - huh. imagine that. For this particular encounter, she again appeared directly in front of them. This time, different from previous times, she attacked. They beat on her for a while, came very close to killing her, and then the friendly neighborhood cleric turned her. She fled into the wall. Had they been paying attention, which I was, and had they been counting off round estimates, which I was, they may have been prepared when she came back 10 rounds later to find them more or less where she left them - in her tomb. (in fact, I think they were actually looting her sarcophagus at the time, but I run this game with more than one group, so I could be wrong.) She attacked briefly from inside the wall, and proceded to emerge and fight out in the open, and be vanquished. So, Here's the pertinent info. We were still in rounds, although the party chose to ignore that fact. Even had we not been in rounds, she would have gotten a surprise round. And yes, it's strange that she could, apparently, somehow, see them.... although had they been paying attention, it has been alluded to before. I should also point out that this is one of those - you've been sent to save the world sort of adventures - they're different, they know it, and they're in this temple to aquire artifacts that are somehow tied to thier souls.... In fact, the character in question has reason to believe that there's a weapon in the immediate vicinity that is actively connected to his being in some astounding and immensley powerful way. I'd go into details, but it would be too much of a spoiler. Mark, you may not use any of this information in game - as you didn't figure it out. If any one still has a good arguement about why any of the above is unfair, or against RAW, there is an exceedingly slim chance I will take an excellent arguement into account, But I think this one's solid, and the character's got level drain. js
pres_man 09-27-06, 05:32 PM	So basically a bunch of DM hand-waving about strange abilities for the creature and the specter can now attack from within the wall without having to worry about not being able to see (evidently can see through stone), but for some strange reason she does not take full advantage of this and instead eventually exits to give the PCs a chance to destroy her. Sounds kind of corny to me. If she can "see" perfectly fine from within the stone, then she should have stayed there and attacked. If this was somehow too powerful, then that should tell you something.
Jinta 09-27-06, 05:45 PM	In fact, the PCs did the smart thing and moved away from the wall and she followed them. I supposed I could have attacked from the floor, as any spectre could. Even with a 50% miss chance, what the ****, it's certainly a good way to go. Just wack away from underneath the floor, hit people a good percentage of the time. You could even follow 'em all the way through the dungeon. (Oh, yeah, any idea how well sound travels through stone? try it sometimes - it's way better than air) So, why didn't I? Same reason most DMs I know wouldn't attack a party for an entire encounter from within the floor - It'd be no fun, and I'd have a bunch of ****** off players. js
Jinta 09-27-06, 05:47 PM	Hey, did you know that the boards take out your bad words? I did the first ****, but the second one, now that's not really a bad word, is it? cool.
LordHawkeye 09-27-06, 07:49 PM	Answer is no, incorporeals cannot see while inside solid objects. Though it can just peek it's face out to see (spot check to notice). Page 295 of the 3.5 DMG. Fourth paragraph
Jinta 09-27-06, 07:58 PM	Ok, let's be clear. The spectre isn't seeing through stone. There is an artifact that allows her to see the PCs, where ever they are and wherever she is. She can see them.
styphon 09-28-06, 12:33 AM	Jinta: I left out all the story information as I didn't see it as being relevant to my question of RaW regarding AoOs and concealment. Since the spectre had magical means to "see" us remotely, I guess that supersedes everything else....although I suspect it's more of a "knows where we are" than "sees".... that being said, knowing what square we are standing in still wouldn't allow her to do an AoO... nevertheless, we have worked out a very nice compromise and I am happy with it! Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me this afternoon. Thanks everyone for your input!!
Sulaco 09-28-06, 10:13 AM	So, Here's the pertinent info. We were still in rounds, although the party chose to ignore that fact. Even had we not been in rounds, she would have gotten a surprise round. You can't get a surprise round once combat has started.
Rhomphaia 09-28-06, 10:27 AM	You know, the more I read this thread, the more I believe that the DM of this game needs to be bonked on the head with the core rulebooks, either seperately or as a stack.
Jinta 09-28-06, 02:58 PM	You know, the more I read this thread, the more I believe that the DM of this game needs to be bonked on the head with the core rulebooks, either seperately or as a stack. Thanks for the lovely thought and encouragement. And to the previous poster. My point is that if you call it still in rounds, she gets the AOO, if you call it a new combat, it's a surprise round. the result is the same.
Sulaco 09-28-06, 03:16 PM	Thanks for the lovely thought and encouragement. And to the previous poster. My point is that if you call it still in rounds, she gets the AOO, if you call it a new combat, it's a surprise round. the result is the same. I see. I read it as if you were suggesting it got a surprise round either way. It's not quite the same, though. If it is an AoO then the init order doesn't change and the target get's it's full AC. If it is a surprise round then you should roll spot checks for everyone to notice it coming out of the wall, determine a new init order, and the target is flat-footed until it acts. The point is taken, however. They left up-and-running a dangerous foe who is well suited to ambush them at any time, and that lapse in judgement left them open to reprisal.
chava 09-28-06, 05:56 PM	Or the group could just go very slowly along the wall on fighting defensively and only taking a 5 foot movement every turn, thus denying the ghosty an AoO due to movement. It would make for very slow movement/combat but it makes sense in that if I were walking down a hallway where a spectre keep poping out and hiting me, I'd either run down the hallway (and suck that 1 AoO - since even a creature with Combat Reflexes can only take 1 AoO on any one creature) or very slowly striking out at every strange movement I see.
keggerz2 09-29-06, 05:11 AM	whats a gm?
keggerz2 09-29-06, 05:13 AM	what are you guys talkin about
grelna 09-29-06, 05:45 AM	whats a gm?GM = Game Master, or Dungeon Master, as they used to be called in the olden days
Sereno 09-29-06, 11:02 AM	I realize I'm getting in on this a little late, but has anyone addressed the actual timing of the Ready action? I didn't think you could (officially) Ready something outside of combat or before your turn in the initiative order. If you can Ready outside of your turn, you might as well never roll initiative; just have the whole party Ready an action to attack the monster when it first moves and everyone will always go before it..... I guess the problem here is that the DM said it was an AoO when they really meant it was a surprise round. Just walking down the corridor, they had no idea it was there so couldn't really have Readied anything....
pres_man 09-29-06, 11:19 AM	The DM has been giving confusing statements. On the one hand they were still in "rounds" on the other hand it was a totally new combat with a surprise round for the creature. Frankly, I think that it would be silly to assume that the PCs could judge super accurately the time the creature would return. Do they all have Timex's? And what kind of intelligent undead would return immediately, wouldn't it be smarter to return when their buffs had run out and they were resting? And if it could see the party so clearly as to not suffer from the 50% chance (which even dragons with their heighten senses suffer), why not attack from cover continuously? Did the DM goof? Absolutely, either by bending/breaking several rules or at the least playing the opponent in a goofy fashion. If you make artifacts that force you to goof, then I would suggest not making them.
Jinta 09-29-06, 11:38 AM	The DM has been giving confusing statements. I'm sorry you're confused. Let me try one more time, I'm speaking slowly... On the one hand they were still in "rounds" on the other hand it was a totally new combat with a surprise round for the creature. In the actual game, I said they were still in rounds, hence AoO. On these boards, I have pointed out that even had I ruled that it was a new combat, she still would have gotten a surprise round. I say this for those who would have ruled that it was a new combat. It doesn't particularly matter... (yes, I know the inititive order would have changed, but the event in question, the first attack upon her return would have still occured). Frankly, I think that it would be silly to assume that the PCs could judge super accurately the time the creature would return. We're talking a minute. It's not that big a deal. I didn't expect them to judge super accurately.... but perhaps being slightly cautious would have been in order. And what kind of intelligent undead would return immediately, wouldn't it be smarter to return when their buffs had run out and they were resting? The kind who's tomb was being robbed. And if it could see the party so clearly as to not suffer from the 50% chance (which even dragons with their heighten senses suffer), why not attack from cover continuously? They moved away from the wall. And attacking from underneath is just wrong. If you make artifacts that force you to goof, then I would suggest not making them. This is a published adventure. I didn't make the artifact, I'm just using it.
pres_man 09-29-06, 02:08 PM	In the actual game, I said they were still in rounds, hence AoO. On these boards, I have pointed out that even had I ruled that it was a new combat, she still would have gotten a surprise round. I say this for those who would have ruled that it was a new combat. It doesn't particularly matter... (yes, I know the inititive order would have changed, but the event in question, the first attack upon her return would have still occured). Actually it does, AoO must be taken in response to something. While an attack during a surprise does not. As well as other differences between the two. We're talking a minute. It's not that big a deal. I didn't expect them to judge super accurately.... but perhaps being slightly cautious would have been in order. Actually we are talking about 2 minutes (10 rounds to flee at top speed, so 10 rounds to return at top speed). They moved away from the wall. And attacking from underneath is just wrong. Why, because some people might get some levels drained, you have already said there was nothing wrong with that. By the way does the creature have the artifact in its possession? If so, is it incorporeal?