Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarrion 01-10-07, 01:27 AM	So here's the quandry: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma and how they relate to morality or higher thinking. For example, suppose there is a warforged who is the only one of his kind (to his own knowledge) for whatever reason. He wonders why he exists and what his purpose is as a construct in a world populated by "fleshies," so to speak. I believe that this would refelct a low score in either of the three "mental" stats. If so, which one or ones? Another example is a character who believes strongly in his own power as a mortal. He believes that he doesn't need the help of some deity and he believes that mortals are capable of enough on their own that they don't need to rely on deities (and cites psionics as a solid point for his case). What would his mental stats be like? I hope this generates some interesting discussion.
IdleAltruism 01-10-07, 01:36 AM	The warfored would have a low wisdom and a higher int. Why waste time with a question you aren't able to answer? Because your wisdom is low. The psionic beliefs really aren't much to go on for stats. Just because he believes something doesn't make him stupid wise or charistmatic. An idiot could believe he doesn't need gods and so could a genius. I have a x tool to forge a world without gods. If he wants to spread his belief he's probably going to need high charisma. A high intelligence could help him with that. Wisdom seems the least important to start but takes effect later in such a quest.
Nytmare 01-10-07, 01:41 AM	I don't think that either one of those examples illustrates someone with "low" mental stats. If anything, a construct asking the whole "Why do I exist?" question would strike me as being someone with a higher than normal wisdom, and to a lesser degree, I'd expect someone who shows that much self esteem to be more charismatic. Why do you see these as depicting, for lack of a better term, mentally handicapped people? The warfored would have a low wisdom and a higher int. Why waste time with a question you aren't able to answer? Because your wisdom is low. Some of the wisest men and women who have ever lived spent a goodly amount of time trying to come up with the answer to that question?
JasonOrlandoHawk 01-10-07, 02:01 AM	If you want to be as technical as possible, the "philosophy" stat is Wisdom. All of the characters known for their morality (or lack thereof) are typically identified by a high wisdom. A high wisdom denotes insight into the way the world works. A Druid w/ a high wisdom realizes that everything ultimately comes from nature, and by embracing that, the Druid gains power by connecting to the ultimate source. A Cleric works on a similar pattern. They embrace an "idea." This could be an actual deity (in most cases), or a set of ideals. In either case, their "idea" is expressed in the form of Domains that grant them Supernatural powers. They also gain power by realizing the fundamental role of Human(oid)/Follower-Deity/Guide. Same for Paladins, Blackguards, and other such classes. Even monks, who cling to the philosophy of Discipline, Law, and Physical Perfection are driven by their Wisdom, not their physical stats. Thus, those who search for "the meaning of life" have a common theme of a higher than average Wisdom. An uneducated farmer may not be able to read more than the most basic of words, but somehow knows exactly what to say when his wife of 30 years is slowly losing the battle to age. This is Wisdom, the mental stat of insight. As a quick comparison, Intelligence is the characters memory, logic, and deductive reasoning. A high intelligence embraces books, math, and debate as a set of tools to understand/master their enviroment. A high Intelligence leads to someone w/ a large vocabulary and a wide range of skills, but who may lack a sort of empathy w/ the life around them. For example, a mad scientist is very intelligent, but no one likes them. Why? The scientist missed the memo that says there is something more important than the unimpeded progress of science. Charisma is the mental stat of interaction. It is part appearance, voice, and personality. A person w/ a high charisma can be overweight, but still be percieved as beatiful b/c they carry themselves well, with a confidence that people find magnetic. By the same token, a physical perfect specimin could be considered uncharismatic b/c they are sullen, short-tempered, or poorly spoken. Thus, Intelligence is Patterns, Math, and the Scientific Process. Wisdom is Empathy, Emotion, and Theology. Charisma is Wit, Personality, and Discussion. As for your examples: Warforged: Int: Don't Know, Wis: Above Average, Cha: Below Average The character is obviously philisophical, but has trouble interacting w/ others. He seeks to understand, not how he was made, but WHY he was made. He looks for a purpose. The Warforged is not interested in where he came from, but rather, when he dies, "Will he dream?" His penalty is in Charisma because his unusual nature have left him "socially inept." Self-Absorbed Mortal (Didn't really have a good term) Int: Very High, Wis: Very Low, Cha: Could vary, though probably low as written Intelligence is the stat of mastery. Wisdom is the stat of empathy. Your mortal sees himself as the master of his life, and does not have any desire to accept outside influence. He will speak to a deity on his terms, not the deity's terms. He clearly has a wide variety of skills, but by the same token refuses help that would otherwise be available to him. ("I have a +2 sword! I don't need the help of the Legendary Paladin!) While this character is very capable, he is probably also the sort who would get in trouble frequently for refusing to ask for any sort of assistance. I base the low Charisma on the (seemingly) condescending attitude of the character. ("Yeah, sure. God is a crutch. Have you even tried to practice my faith for a while? You might find out it's not as simple as you think.") Mixed Stats would be as follows: High Int, Low Wis & Cha: Mad Scientist High Int & Wis, Low Cha: Reclusive Scholar or Theologian High Int, Wis, & Cha: Great Religious Leaders of History High Wis, Low Int & Cha: Uneducated Farmer High Wis & Cha, Low Int: Tribal Shaman High Cha, Low Int & Wis: Many modern movie stars High Cha & Int, Low Wis: Politicians, maybe? (Sorry, had to throw in a snide comment...)
Rosary 01-10-07, 11:11 AM	Great post, mr. OrlandoHawk. Detailed and insightful. Just one thing bothers me: The farmer who knows what to say to his wife - scenario. It seems to me you're right about his wisdom telling him what to say... but aren't many social interaction skills based on charisma? You tend to judge people not by what they think, but what they say and do, and that would be charisma-related, imo. I think the whole game mechanic concerning the three social stats are problematic at best, because you can find a great many situations where more than one would apply - in the real world. Just my :twocents:
Puca 01-10-07, 11:23 AM	I would say that, in the farmer scenario, Wisdom is knowing what she needs to hear; Charisma is putting it into just the right words. For example, suppose there is a warforged who is the only one of his kind (to his own knowledge) for whatever reason. He wonders why he exists and what his purpose is as a construct in a world populated by "fleshies," so to speak. I believe that this would refelct a low score in either of the three "mental" stats. If so, which one or ones?I dont think this reflects a low score in any stat. The fact is he is tormented by what is really the highest of questions: why? Only a monumentally stupid person wouldnt question his existence when it is so open to questioning. Another example is a character who believes strongly in his own power as a mortal. He believes that he doesn't need the help of some deity and he believes that mortals are capable of enough on their own that they don't need to rely on deities (and cites psionics as a solid point for his case). What would his mental stats be like? What you are describing is arrogance. For what my experience is worth, this is a person with high, but not extraordinarily high intelligence. Someone with a 120 IQ is far more likely to think like this than a guy with a 140. They are smarter than most people around them, but not smart enough, or in D&D terms maybe wise enough, to be aware of just how unimportant that is in the grand scheme of things.
Endarrion 01-10-07, 12:44 PM	Thanks for the replies everyone. Jason: I totally agree with your assessment of the warforged. This is a character I plan on playing in a friend's campaign (hopefully). As for the psionic character, I saw him as more of a charasmatic person, who is a leader and draws people to himself (high cha), but through hardships he has faced by himself with no outside influence, has taken up the ideal that mortals are masters of themselves. A real world example could be the martial arts masters of the world. They can do so much (70 year old man leaping from pole to pole 10ft off the ground? check). I would like to think that these same people exist in D&D (probably as monks) and the psionics guy would say, "Well look at these people. They don't believe in a god (most monks don't) and they can do these amazing things." Also, if the character in question is a psionic maenad (sp?) that is another way he could prove his power as a mortal. The XPH states that one legend is that they defeated their own deity for freedom (or something along those lines). The character I'm envisioning does not try to explain away clerics powers, but would say, "You can do that with help, but think of what you could accomplish on your own. Don't you ever wonder what a life free of crutches would be like?" He is someone who sees the constant warring of the deities as an extravagant game of chess with mortals as the pieces. A game he never asked to play and refuses to take part in. Does that change anything?
Sereno 01-10-07, 12:45 PM	Just one thing bothers me: The farmer who knows what to say to his wife - scenario. It seems to me you're right about his wisdom telling him what to say... but aren't many social interaction skills based on charisma? You tend to judge people not by what they think, but what they say and do, and that would be charisma-related, imo. Knowing that he *should* say something and what is likely to be best received is Wisdom. Actually saying it, and having her *believe* him, is Charisma. :) I think when it comes to social interaction, Wisdom is "reading" people and Charisma is "connecting" with them.
Kas 01-10-07, 10:12 PM	Did you ever see Se7en?? Detective Mills(Brad Pitt) had a high Wisdom. Somerset(Morgan Freeman) had a high Intelligence. I watch too many horror movies.
JasonOrlandoHawk 01-10-07, 10:31 PM	Would it help clear up my example if I changed the story of the high-Wisdom farmer so that "he knows how to comfort his wife as she slowly loses the battle to age," rather than using the concept of speaking? My point is that Wisdom is a "connection" mental stat. At it's basic, Wisdom improves your ability to see/hear your environment. You're more "connected." It then moves into the realm of Sense Motive, where you have an inate understanding of other's motivations. Lastly, it moves into the realm of Divine Magic (Deities, Nature, or Ideals) and powers your connection to that source. Wisdom understands it's place. This applies to evil as well as good. For example, you can have a Wis 18 NG Druid, as well as a Wis 18 NE Druid. One looks at the natural world (from an evil perspective) and sees a cruel, desperate battle for survival. Raw instinct and savage ferocity allow one to survive in a harsh environment. The other (Good) perspective sees the necessity of support and care. A Tiger kills to survive, yes, but it also doesn't kill in excess, and it does it's killing often to aid its' young. They see that all living creatures depend on other creatures and that in order to ensure the continuity of life, they must embrace the instinct to nurture those around them. The difference in Wisdom and Intelligence is that Int percieves (something, say "life") as a game to be mastered, where as Wisdom sees (same something, "life") themselves as a unit of that game. It's like the difference in playing chess and being an intelligent chess piece. Good and Evil even have the same ability to understand others, they just respond differently. A good cleric understands your pain, thus they use their spells to alleviate it. An evil cleric understands you pain, enjoys it, and uses their spells to enhance it. However, at a basic level, they have the exact same insight. (Note: This is why evil characters do not have mental stat penalties.) Second major note: Charisma is not the "talking" stat, it is the "interaction" stat. If I'm very wise, my words will convey that. I'm just not going to be the person to stand before an audience and share my ideas. A wise person can console a grieving family. A Charismatic person can inspire a mob. For example, we don't assume that High Int-Low Cha means you know a lot, but can't explain it. If you have a High Int, you have a large vocabulary and a wide range of skills, you're probably just very boring to listen to for any real length of time. Charisma covers "interaction." It represents your ability to make a good impression, speak powerfully (note: not coherently), and hide your thoughts during a game of poker (sorry, Three-Dragon Ante). A High Wis-Low Cha character is probably a very reserved individual. They are quiet, reflectful, and prone to saying very little. However, the few words they do say are loaded w/ a lot of meaning. How well people catch that may be a function of Charisma, but not in most cases. I don't have to have a Charisma of 16 to console a friend who loses a family member. In fact, I'd rather have a Wisdom of 16 if I was trying to do so.
Endarrion 01-11-07, 03:44 PM	Oh c'mon. No one has any other ideas? :bump: Bump *cough* bump
christOrisen 01-11-07, 05:04 PM	So here's the quandry: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma and how they relate to morality or higher thinking. For example, suppose there is a warforged who is the only one of his kind (to his own knowledge) for whatever reason. He wonders why he exists and what his purpose is as a construct in a world populated by "fleshies," so to speak. I believe that this would refelct a low score in either of the three "mental" stats. If so, which one or ones? Another example is a character who believes strongly in his own power as a mortal. He believes that he doesn't need the help of some deity and he believes that mortals are capable of enough on their own that they don't need to rely on deities (and cites psionics as a solid point for his case). What would his mental stats be like? I hope this generates some interesting discussion. I dont see why either of these cases require high or low mental stats. In the D&D setting, the second character, better be able to back up his belief that he does not need the help of a deity with some actual power. Even then, he is still not a god. At most, this reflects either a high or low wisdom. But it does not have to. He could still have an average wisdom. Why does the scenario with the war forged reflect a low stat? He could have high wis, int and chr and still come to this conclusion.
christOrisen 01-11-07, 05:06 PM	Thanks for the replies everyone. Jason: I totally agree with your assessment of the warforged. This is a character I plan on playing in a friend's campaign (hopefully). As for the psionic character, I saw him as more of a charasmatic person, who is a leader and draws people to himself (high cha), but through hardships he has faced by himself with no outside influence, has taken up the ideal that mortals are masters of themselves. A real world example could be the martial arts masters of the world. They can do so much (70 year old man leaping from pole to pole 10ft off the ground? check). I would like to think that these same people exist in D&D (probably as monks) and the psionics guy would say, "Well look at these people. They don't believe in a god (most monks don't) and they can do these amazing things." Also, if the character in question is a psionic maenad (sp?) that is another way he could prove his power as a mortal. The XPH states that one legend is that they defeated their own deity for freedom (or something along those lines). The character I'm envisioning does not try to explain away clerics powers, but would say, "You can do that with help, but think of what you could accomplish on your own. Don't you ever wonder what a life free of crutches would be like?" He is someone who sees the constant warring of the deities as an extravagant game of chess with mortals as the pieces. A game he never asked to play and refuses to take part in. Does that change anything? I think with these added details, you could either play him (the mortal) with a high or low CHR. How many times have we met someone who thought the world of themselves, and no else agreed. Or how many times have we met a person this confident and everyone is drawn to them. It depends on how he expresses these internal beliefs.
AmericanYeti 01-11-07, 05:29 PM	This is a good thread. However, my Wis (9) is not nearly high enough to lend to this, so I'll just observe.