I've been bitten! Nooo! Oh wait, I wanted to be. [Archive] - Wizards Community

I've been bitten! Nooo! Oh wait, I wanted to be. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voldar_Mecorthio
10-11-06, 08:31 PM Hello. Recently I was bitten by a tiger. Ouch. A weretiger. Oucher. I volentarily falied my saving throw versus infection. Why? The entire encounter was requested by me. I play a swordsage, specializing in Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and partly Setting Sun and Diamond Mind. I wanted to be a weretiger, so my DM was kind enough to incorperate one and have it bite me. I am now a lycanthrope, but I've never played one. Does anyone have any tips on stuff I should do? (No racial HD, so just LA +2, and I'm maxing out Control Shape.)
Heahengel
10-11-06, 08:41 PM No racial HD? You realize that those HD are critical to balancing out the abilities that were-tiger grants I hope. Or at least, I hope your DM does. Really what you should do is work out a savage progression with your DM and level through it.

So make an 8 level class basically, 6 of which have HD, and spread the abilities through it. I have a feeling that this might already have nbeen done somewhere, so you could find that and use it.
Chrono Nexus
10-11-06, 08:43 PM Keep a set of manacles, and a good lock. Have your party members manacle you to a tree or a heavy boulder every single night.
Don't get mad. Ever.
Or hungry- make sure you always have a full stomach.
Keep a steak on your person that is drenched in drow poison. Hopefully if you lose control, you'll eat it and fall asleep.
Magus Gar Kan
10-11-06, 08:45 PM Here is the weretiger monster class, just level up in this:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a
Voldar_Mecorthio
10-11-06, 09:19 PM Would you mind elaborating on that "HD balance it out" statement? I got rid of all feats, HP, and other HD related stuff, is the shifting too strong for +2 or something?
Cifer
10-11-06, 09:31 PM Look at animal hit dice. Would you say that they are as strong as true PC levels? Compare lame D8 aberration hit dice with one good save, mediocre BAB and no bonus abilities against a paladin with its D10, full BAB and cool abilities.
Racial Hit Dice are a way of balancing. They are a bit stronger than LA, but not nearly as strong as real class levels.
Cincinnati
10-11-06, 09:33 PM Are you allowed to voluntarily fail a saving throw? I didn't think you could do this in DDM, but I guess in regular D&D it might be possible. Is there a rule on this? Just wondering.
Heahengel
10-11-06, 09:34 PM In my opinion, yes. In general, racial HD is not as good as class levels. If you look at the weretiger abilities and compare them to a creature with LA but no racial HD, I would guess that the were-tiger would be a lot more powerful.

Without the HD, skill points, and the feats from HD, you still get +2 wisdom, +2 Natural Armor, Low Light Vision, Scent, Iron Will, Alertness, Tiger Empathy, and some skill bonuses at all times, and the shifting abilities, which are quite powerful, having a total stat bonus of +22, DR, 3 more NA, a lot of fun combat abilities in Tiger form, and reach in hybrid form.

Edit: Your DM is put the encounter in for you, so I assume he also wants to try this out. If the group doesn't mind having characters more powerful than normal, this might not be a problem, or you could houserule a solution that wouldn't be as powerful.
Morotis
10-11-06, 09:36 PM what he means is that those 6 HD replace the next 6 levels of whatever class you would of taken. For the most part, an actual class is almost alway better than a monsterous HD. So HD are a dissadvantage, That's why they're important, D&D needs racial HD like it needs Attacks of Oppertunity, they balance everything out...
Cifer
10-11-06, 10:17 PM Are you allowed to voluntarily fail a saving throw? I didn't think you could do this in DDM, but I guess in regular D&D it might be possible. Is there a rule on this? Just wondering.
Yep, there is definitely a rule.

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Richard_the_Garrulous
10-11-06, 11:08 PM If you look at the savage progression that was posted, you'll see that without 6 levels of animal HD you're still a weretiger, but you don't get ANY of the incredible physical ability improvements you could otherwise get. This means that the only cool thing about changing into a hybrid or tiger form is because it makes you look impressive.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-11-06, 11:13 PM No racial HD? You realize that those HD are critical to balancing out the abilities that were-tiger grants I hope. Or at least, I hope your DM does. Really what you should do is work out a savage progression with your DM and level through it.

So make an 8 level class basically, 6 of which have HD, and spread the abilities through it. I have a feeling that this might already have nbeen done somewhere, so you could find that and use it.
Only about 2 of those HD balance it. The remained just cripple it and exist to discourage PC monsters.
Heahengel
10-12-06, 12:01 AM Only about 2 of those HD balance it. The remained just cripple it and exist to discourage PC monsters.
I don't really disagree with that, but I wanted to make sure that both he and his DM realized that they had that intent. One of my characters was inflicted with lycanthropy (unwillingly) and the DM and I worked out an alternate progression (I ended up with more total shift, but replaced LA with even more racial HD and reconfigured where I got certain abilities). I think it worked out well. Really he should just talk to his DM and determine what they think works for their game.
Neutronium_Dragon
10-12-06, 02:19 AM You might try using Curse of the Moon. The "simple lycanthrope template" which it includes is LA +1 or LA +0 with no racial hit dice, and doesn't create nearly as many complications as the standard MM one does - in particular if you want to forego racial hit dice.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/
Voldar_Mecorthio
10-12-06, 03:49 PM Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities?
allenchan
10-12-06, 04:23 PM Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities?

That, sir, would be up to your DM.
KurenaiYami
10-12-06, 04:30 PM Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities?
If your asking for our opinions on whether or not we think it is imbalancing, my vote would go for yes, it is.

Others will disagree, and I have no evidence to back up my claim using game info, just a bad experience with a weretiger gone wrong.
KirkBb
10-12-06, 04:40 PM If you look at the savage progression that was posted, you'll see that without 6 levels of animal HD you're still a weretiger, but you don't get ANY of the incredible physical ability improvements you could otherwise get. This means that the only cool thing about changing into a hybrid or tiger form is because it makes you look impressive.
Just quoting this for truth, either add the racial HD or suck it up and have no real benefits while shapeshifted.
Heahengel
10-12-06, 05:01 PM The thing is with those savage progressions and the control shape rules - you have no choice. Until you get a lot of ranks in control shape (takes a few levels even going through the were-tiger class, cross class skill for everything else, I think) you involuntarily change every time your hit point total drops below 3/4 of its max capacity (and if you make that check, do it again at 1/2 and 1/4). If you have none of the abilities of your tiger form, you are now screwed royally. I would suggest editing those two classes into one progression, and adding a few more abilities to your animal form early to make it more surviveable (none of the great stuff, and maybe delay some of the stuff that it gives normally).

For example I might take the progression from that link and change it to:
1st CR+1 alternate form (tiger), shapechanger subtype, weretiger feat (Alertness), and the following animal form abilities (bite, NA+2, and Str +2)

so delaying the always active natural armor, and the wisdom bonus and low light vision for the ability to make an armed attack as a tiger, and conditional bonuses in tiger form. Also, you don't gain HD that level, so no control shape for you (maybe you want to revise it further then).
LordHawkeye
10-12-06, 05:38 PM Until you become aware of the condition, DC15 wisdom check after turning back, yeah, you're a loose cannon. After that, you become aware and fully in control of yourself when changing though you still have a more feral mindset so you lack patience for subtlety or strategy. Kinda like the Hulk. He does know friend from foe but is still a loose cannon.

Just get that control shape skill up pronto. Good to be able to keep it under control.
chava
10-12-06, 05:43 PM And I'm the dumb warblade who is multiclassing with druid so I will be eventually able to wild shape into a tiger...

Oh well, I'm playing in a Monty Hall game and we level ridulously quickly (and the druid level's do count toward my initiator level - even if they are only 1/2...)
Voldar_Mecorthio
10-12-06, 06:57 PM Here let me ask this: IYO, what would be an appropriate number of racial HD to balance out the Weretiger template? I talked to my DM and he replied with a shug and a suggestion to persue this thread's inquery. He has never DMed a lycanthrope player, so he has no experence to the balance of the template.

Currently I think that 3, maybe 4 HD plus the +2 LA would easily balance out the class, is that a good idea?
HermitIX
10-12-06, 07:07 PM I have actually played a were-tiger. I don’t think the level adjustment was too harsh. A few things to remember…

1) Non-magical clothing does not size with your character, I have my clothes enchanted with a cantrip so they counted as magical and wouldn’t be destroyed when I shifted.
2) There is an alignment shift. I don’t want to start an alignment thread here. So I will leave the implications of that (if there are any) up to you.
3) Because you are infected you can’t automatically control your shifting. There is a skill something like “control shape” that lets you change or not change via will power.
4) When you loose control and go all tigerie you’re not evil you are true neutral so you wont be killing your friends in there sleep, but if you are hungry you may kill a sheep, or domestic animal.
5) In my game we said that the tiger attributes bleed over to my human self, so I had orange/black hair.
6) You loose control when you take a certain amount of damage. I don’t remember if it was ˝ you total/or/current hit points, or if it was Ľ th.
7) I think I played in 3rd ed so the rules may have changed.
8) I think a good way to adjudicate your new monster levels would be to keep gaining exp as usual but not take another level in a class until you buy off what ever the racial adjustment is for were-tiger.
Zariell
10-12-06, 07:51 PM You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check.

That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action.
Heahengel
10-12-06, 07:59 PM Well in my Ranger's case, the abilities I gained seemed about right (we removed the LA, but added 3 HD and rearranged the abilities - this was for a were-panther). My best advice is to add the full were-tiger template to your character, and compare it to other characters of that level, or just see if it looks overpowered to you (or post it here for people to disect).
allenchan
10-12-06, 08:03 PM Here let me ask this: IYO, what would be an appropriate number of racial HD to balance out the Weretiger template? I talked to my DM and he replied with a shug and a suggestion to persue this thread's inquery. He has never DMed a lycanthrope player, so he has no experence to the balance of the template.

Currently I think that 3, maybe 4 HD plus the +2 LA would easily balance out the class, is that a good idea?

I still think 6. If you were a were rat or wolf, my opinion would be different. weretiger and werebear are the best bang for your buck, imo.
EvilVegan
10-12-06, 09:35 PM You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check.

That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action.
And looking at the SRD quote it seems that you can only willingly fail SPELL saving throws (so not disease or poison). RAW anyway.
EvilVegan
10-12-06, 09:40 PM You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check.

That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action.
And looking at the SRD quote it seems that you can only willingly fail SPELL saving throws (so not disease or poison). RAW anyway.

To OP:

I always want to see a player who plays a sub-optimal character and wants to become a lycanthrope.

My guess is that you already have high stats in the abilities that were-tiger improves the most. As a DM I'd be much more inclined to allow you to have a beefy template if you were naturally a wimp.

Hi, I'm a fighter. I can power attack you, promise. You just wait til the moon's full and I'LL SHOW YOU!
robertliguori
10-12-06, 10:49 PM One solution to your problem is to take Extra Maneuver(Iron Heart Surge).

Also, consider that any seventh-level caster can make wights (with Enervation), and that wights can cause permanent level drain. If your DM changes his mind and insists on saddling you with racial HD as a balancing factor, Enervate the next level 1 bandit you encounter, and spend the next two weeks carefully stripping away the unwanted hit dice.
Lina_Inverse
10-13-06, 02:33 AM Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities?

Take 6, cut off the LA.

Id say the weretiger benefits are worth 6 levels of class powers.
Voldar_Mecorthio
10-13-06, 05:36 PM Because I'm playing a swordsage, whose strength relies largly on his awesome selection of manuvers, taking a lot of balance levels would be a lot more damageing than taking a few level adjustment fake levels. How many nonlevels would be needed for balance, because I want to minimize all non-swordsage levels I need to devote to lycanthropy.
Nickpire
10-13-06, 08:49 PM I"d advise checking out Savage Species for details on working this out also, it's an interesting book that I thought was worth the money. Or better yet, borrow it from a friend :)
Heahengel
10-13-06, 09:06 PM I don't have savage species (although I used to love the 2nd ed version) but from what I know it isn't well adapted to 3.5, and pretty much needs DM permission throughout, so you should talk to him before thinking of buying it. The idea is fun though, and it does cover exactly this situation.

As far as ToB goes, LA is bad for swordsage as well, as it reduces your initiator level even more than racial HD, but I see your point that a bit of LA is better than more racial HD. I would think that for overall character effectiveness, HD is better because you don't lose the HP, skill points, ability points, feats and such. Also, you might want to think about altering your character concept somewhat - the were-tiger abilities are best used to charge (pounce) and then grapple (often in the same round - yay improved grap). Maneuvers aren't great for either of those. You also have a lot of natural attacks, so giving some up to do one maneuver might be a bit counterproductive. On the other hand, with the right maneuver/stance selection, you can really boost your were-tiger abilities. How is your character made so far (what level, and what stances and maneuvers do you have?).

My gut impulse is that if you want to replace the 6 racial HD with pure LA I would add at least 2 LA (so 4 total). Maybe more. But someone else would be better to answer this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 10-11-06, 08:31 PM	Hello. Recently I was bitten by a tiger. Ouch. A weretiger. Oucher. I volentarily falied my saving throw versus infection. Why? The entire encounter was requested by me. I play a swordsage, specializing in Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and partly Setting Sun and Diamond Mind. I wanted to be a weretiger, so my DM was kind enough to incorperate one and have it bite me. I am now a lycanthrope, but I've never played one. Does anyone have any tips on stuff I should do? (No racial HD, so just LA +2, and I'm maxing out Control Shape.)
Heahengel 10-11-06, 08:41 PM	No racial HD? You realize that those HD are critical to balancing out the abilities that were-tiger grants I hope. Or at least, I hope your DM does. Really what you should do is work out a savage progression with your DM and level through it. So make an 8 level class basically, 6 of which have HD, and spread the abilities through it. I have a feeling that this might already have nbeen done somewhere, so you could find that and use it.
Chrono Nexus 10-11-06, 08:43 PM	Keep a set of manacles, and a good lock. Have your party members manacle you to a tree or a heavy boulder every single night. Don't get mad. Ever. Or hungry- make sure you always have a full stomach. Keep a steak on your person that is drenched in drow poison. Hopefully if you lose control, you'll eat it and fall asleep.
Magus Gar Kan 10-11-06, 08:45 PM	Here is the weretiger monster class, just level up in this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a
Voldar_Mecorthio 10-11-06, 09:19 PM	Would you mind elaborating on that "HD balance it out" statement? I got rid of all feats, HP, and other HD related stuff, is the shifting too strong for +2 or something?
Cifer 10-11-06, 09:31 PM	Look at animal hit dice. Would you say that they are as strong as true PC levels? Compare lame D8 aberration hit dice with one good save, mediocre BAB and no bonus abilities against a paladin with its D10, full BAB and cool abilities. Racial Hit Dice are a way of balancing. They are a bit stronger than LA, but not nearly as strong as real class levels.
Cincinnati 10-11-06, 09:33 PM	Are you allowed to voluntarily fail a saving throw? I didn't think you could do this in DDM, but I guess in regular D&D it might be possible. Is there a rule on this? Just wondering.
Heahengel 10-11-06, 09:34 PM	In my opinion, yes. In general, racial HD is not as good as class levels. If you look at the weretiger abilities and compare them to a creature with LA but no racial HD, I would guess that the were-tiger would be a lot more powerful. Without the HD, skill points, and the feats from HD, you still get +2 wisdom, +2 Natural Armor, Low Light Vision, Scent, Iron Will, Alertness, Tiger Empathy, and some skill bonuses at all times, and the shifting abilities, which are quite powerful, having a total stat bonus of +22, DR, 3 more NA, a lot of fun combat abilities in Tiger form, and reach in hybrid form. Edit: Your DM is put the encounter in for you, so I assume he also wants to try this out. If the group doesn't mind having characters more powerful than normal, this might not be a problem, or you could houserule a solution that wouldn't be as powerful.
Morotis 10-11-06, 09:36 PM	what he means is that those 6 HD replace the next 6 levels of whatever class you would of taken. For the most part, an actual class is almost alway better than a monsterous HD. So HD are a dissadvantage, That's why they're important, D&D needs racial HD like it needs Attacks of Oppertunity, they balance everything out...
Cifer 10-11-06, 10:17 PM	Are you allowed to voluntarily fail a saving throw? I didn't think you could do this in DDM, but I guess in regular D&D it might be possible. Is there a rule on this? Just wondering. Yep, there is definitely a rule. Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Richard_the_Garrulous 10-11-06, 11:08 PM	If you look at the savage progression that was posted, you'll see that without 6 levels of animal HD you're still a weretiger, but you don't get ANY of the incredible physical ability improvements you could otherwise get. This means that the only cool thing about changing into a hybrid or tiger form is because it makes you look impressive.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-11-06, 11:13 PM	No racial HD? You realize that those HD are critical to balancing out the abilities that were-tiger grants I hope. Or at least, I hope your DM does. Really what you should do is work out a savage progression with your DM and level through it. So make an 8 level class basically, 6 of which have HD, and spread the abilities through it. I have a feeling that this might already have nbeen done somewhere, so you could find that and use it. Only about 2 of those HD balance it. The remained just cripple it and exist to discourage PC monsters.
Heahengel 10-12-06, 12:01 AM	Only about 2 of those HD balance it. The remained just cripple it and exist to discourage PC monsters. I don't really disagree with that, but I wanted to make sure that both he and his DM realized that they had that intent. One of my characters was inflicted with lycanthropy (unwillingly) and the DM and I worked out an alternate progression (I ended up with more total shift, but replaced LA with even more racial HD and reconfigured where I got certain abilities). I think it worked out well. Really he should just talk to his DM and determine what they think works for their game.
Neutronium_Dragon 10-12-06, 02:19 AM	You might try using Curse of the Moon. The "simple lycanthrope template" which it includes is LA +1 or LA +0 with no racial hit dice, and doesn't create nearly as many complications as the standard MM one does - in particular if you want to forego racial hit dice. http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/005COTM/
Voldar_Mecorthio 10-12-06, 03:49 PM	Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities?
allenchan 10-12-06, 04:23 PM	Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities? That, sir, would be up to your DM.
KurenaiYami 10-12-06, 04:30 PM	Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities? If your asking for our opinions on whether or not we think it is imbalancing, my vote would go for yes, it is. Others will disagree, and I have no evidence to back up my claim using game info, just a bad experience with a weretiger gone wrong.
KirkBb 10-12-06, 04:40 PM	If you look at the savage progression that was posted, you'll see that without 6 levels of animal HD you're still a weretiger, but you don't get ANY of the incredible physical ability improvements you could otherwise get. This means that the only cool thing about changing into a hybrid or tiger form is because it makes you look impressive. Just quoting this for truth, either add the racial HD or suck it up and have no real benefits while shapeshifted.
Heahengel 10-12-06, 05:01 PM	The thing is with those savage progressions and the control shape rules - you have no choice. Until you get a lot of ranks in control shape (takes a few levels even going through the were-tiger class, cross class skill for everything else, I think) you involuntarily change every time your hit point total drops below 3/4 of its max capacity (and if you make that check, do it again at 1/2 and 1/4). If you have none of the abilities of your tiger form, you are now screwed royally. I would suggest editing those two classes into one progression, and adding a few more abilities to your animal form early to make it more surviveable (none of the great stuff, and maybe delay some of the stuff that it gives normally). For example I might take the progression from that link and change it to: 1st CR+1 alternate form (tiger), shapechanger subtype, weretiger feat (Alertness), and the following animal form abilities (bite, NA+2, and Str +2) so delaying the always active natural armor, and the wisdom bonus and low light vision for the ability to make an armed attack as a tiger, and conditional bonuses in tiger form. Also, you don't gain HD that level, so no control shape for you (maybe you want to revise it further then).
LordHawkeye 10-12-06, 05:38 PM	Until you become aware of the condition, DC15 wisdom check after turning back, yeah, you're a loose cannon. After that, you become aware and fully in control of yourself when changing though you still have a more feral mindset so you lack patience for subtlety or strategy. Kinda like the Hulk. He does know friend from foe but is still a loose cannon. Just get that control shape skill up pronto. Good to be able to keep it under control.
chava 10-12-06, 05:43 PM	And I'm the dumb warblade who is multiclassing with druid so I will be eventually able to wild shape into a tiger... Oh well, I'm playing in a Monty Hall game and we level ridulously quickly (and the druid level's do count toward my initiator level - even if they are only 1/2...)
Voldar_Mecorthio 10-12-06, 06:57 PM	Here let me ask this: IYO, what would be an appropriate number of racial HD to balance out the Weretiger template? I talked to my DM and he replied with a shug and a suggestion to persue this thread's inquery. He has never DMed a lycanthrope player, so he has no experence to the balance of the template. Currently I think that 3, maybe 4 HD plus the +2 LA would easily balance out the class, is that a good idea?
HermitIX 10-12-06, 07:07 PM	I have actually played a were-tiger. I don’t think the level adjustment was too harsh. A few things to remember… 1) Non-magical clothing does not size with your character, I have my clothes enchanted with a cantrip so they counted as magical and wouldn’t be destroyed when I shifted. 2) There is an alignment shift. I don’t want to start an alignment thread here. So I will leave the implications of that (if there are any) up to you. 3) Because you are infected you can’t automatically control your shifting. There is a skill something like “control shape” that lets you change or not change via will power. 4) When you loose control and go all tigerie you’re not evil you are true neutral so you wont be killing your friends in there sleep, but if you are hungry you may kill a sheep, or domestic animal. 5) In my game we said that the tiger attributes bleed over to my human self, so I had orange/black hair. 6) You loose control when you take a certain amount of damage. I don’t remember if it was ˝ you total/or/current hit points, or if it was Ľ th. 7) I think I played in 3rd ed so the rules may have changed. 8) I think a good way to adjudicate your new monster levels would be to keep gaining exp as usual but not take another level in a class until you buy off what ever the racial adjustment is for were-tiger.
Zariell 10-12-06, 07:51 PM	You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check. That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action.
Heahengel 10-12-06, 07:59 PM	Well in my Ranger's case, the abilities I gained seemed about right (we removed the LA, but added 3 HD and rearranged the abilities - this was for a were-panther). My best advice is to add the full were-tiger template to your character, and compare it to other characters of that level, or just see if it looks overpowered to you (or post it here for people to disect).
allenchan 10-12-06, 08:03 PM	Here let me ask this: IYO, what would be an appropriate number of racial HD to balance out the Weretiger template? I talked to my DM and he replied with a shug and a suggestion to persue this thread's inquery. He has never DMed a lycanthrope player, so he has no experence to the balance of the template. Currently I think that 3, maybe 4 HD plus the +2 LA would easily balance out the class, is that a good idea? I still think 6. If you were a were rat or wolf, my opinion would be different. weretiger and werebear are the best bang for your buck, imo.
EvilVegan 10-12-06, 09:35 PM	You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check. That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action. And looking at the SRD quote it seems that you can only willingly fail SPELL saving throws (so not disease or poison). RAW anyway.
EvilVegan 10-12-06, 09:40 PM	You can opt to fail saving throws, you cannot however opt to fail a spell resistance check. That being said, you can lower your spell resistance by making a standard action. And looking at the SRD quote it seems that you can only willingly fail SPELL saving throws (so not disease or poison). RAW anyway. To OP: I always want to see a player who plays a sub-optimal character and wants to become a lycanthrope. My guess is that you already have high stats in the abilities that were-tiger improves the most. As a DM I'd be much more inclined to allow you to have a beefy template if you were naturally a wimp. Hi, I'm a fighter. I can power attack you, promise. You just wait til the moon's full and I'LL SHOW YOU!
robertliguori 10-12-06, 10:49 PM	One solution to your problem is to take Extra Maneuver(Iron Heart Surge). Also, consider that any seventh-level caster can make wights (with Enervation), and that wights can cause permanent level drain. If your DM changes his mind and insists on saddling you with racial HD as a balancing factor, Enervate the next level 1 bandit you encounter, and spend the next two weeks carefully stripping away the unwanted hit dice.
Lina_Inverse 10-13-06, 02:33 AM	Okay, I like that savage progression thing. It seems a little steep to take 6 HD for the tiger stuff, would it be too imbalancing to only take 4 but get all abilities? Take 6, cut off the LA. Id say the weretiger benefits are worth 6 levels of class powers.
Voldar_Mecorthio 10-13-06, 05:36 PM	Because I'm playing a swordsage, whose strength relies largly on his awesome selection of manuvers, taking a lot of balance levels would be a lot more damageing than taking a few level adjustment fake levels. How many nonlevels would be needed for balance, because I want to minimize all non-swordsage levels I need to devote to lycanthropy.
Nickpire 10-13-06, 08:49 PM	I"d advise checking out Savage Species for details on working this out also, it's an interesting book that I thought was worth the money. Or better yet, borrow it from a friend :)
Heahengel 10-13-06, 09:06 PM	I don't have savage species (although I used to love the 2nd ed version) but from what I know it isn't well adapted to 3.5, and pretty much needs DM permission throughout, so you should talk to him before thinking of buying it. The idea is fun though, and it does cover exactly this situation. As far as ToB goes, LA is bad for swordsage as well, as it reduces your initiator level even more than racial HD, but I see your point that a bit of LA is better than more racial HD. I would think that for overall character effectiveness, HD is better because you don't lose the HP, skill points, ability points, feats and such. Also, you might want to think about altering your character concept somewhat - the were-tiger abilities are best used to charge (pounce) and then grapple (often in the same round - yay improved grap). Maneuvers aren't great for either of those. You also have a lot of natural attacks, so giving some up to do one maneuver might be a bit counterproductive. On the other hand, with the right maneuver/stance selection, you can really boost your were-tiger abilities. How is your character made so far (what level, and what stances and maneuvers do you have?). My gut impulse is that if you want to replace the 6 racial HD with pure LA I would add at least 2 LA (so 4 total). Maybe more. But someone else would be better to answer this.