I've got a secret [Archive] - Wizards Community

I've got a secret [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Felonious Monk
06-12-04, 04:29 PM I'm giving up DMing for a while to give another guy a shot. He's setting us up at level 3, and encouraged monster characters (we're in a wild area, he says). So I decide to play a doppeganger.

My problem is this: In 3.0, doppelgangers are +3 LA. So I can play one, but without any class levels. My Bluff score is insane, so while my character can convince anyone that he's a half-elf monk, or whatever, I'd like to have the players in the dark too. A doppelganger's stats and abilities don't closely resemble any character class by themselves, except maybe monk, and once they figure out I can't use stunning fist or whatever, the game is up.

I've never played a doppelganger before, or a rogue, or a character who has any reason to lie to anyone. I know the new DM is on my side on this, but he's fairly inexperienced, and the other players include some great numbercrunchers, powergamers, and our original DM. How do we pull the wool over their eyes?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
06-12-04, 04:54 PM Ummm... Dopplegangers also have racial hit dice. Four of them. So you need to be in a 7th level party in order to play a doppleganger.
Felonious Monk
06-12-04, 09:35 PM doesn't that make the race a little... underpowered? Why would anyone play a doppelganger when they could play a seventh level rogue with a hat of disguise?

Anyone want to answer the actual question, which still stands even if there are mechanical problems with the specific example?
trapspringer
06-12-04, 11:18 PM You can't actually bluff other players via in game rolls, it's all you, man.

There is nothing to complex about tricking other PCs, just don't tell them and make sure no one grabs your character sheet.
Veton
06-12-04, 11:35 PM Originally posted by Felonious Monk
doesn't that make the race a little... underpowered? Why would anyone play a doppelganger when they could play a seventh level rogue with a hat of disguise?

Not really. The HD are like class levels, they give HP, save bonuses, skill points, etc. The LA is how many levels the various powers a creature gets would be if it were a class.

Originally posted by trapspringer
You can't actually bluff other players via in game rolls, it's all you, man.

Actually, you can. You just can't use something like Diplomacy against other PCs.

As for your original question, just tell them (in game terms of course) that you are a Fighter. That way they won't know what exactly you should have.

If your DM will allow it, you could prevent subconsious metagaming by saying things like "Well, I have Point Blank shot, so..."
SoldierOfFortune187
06-12-04, 11:47 PM Why would you want to keep a secret from your party? This is the group you count on to survive in the everyday world of an adventurer.

Okay, all that aside, here's my take:

1. Your party should not have free access to your character sheet. You as a person can't openly access the vital statistics and inventory, special abilities, etc. of the people around you, so it makes sense your play group (with the exception of the DM, of course) can't just take a look and find out. So, it is more on your roleplay and cooperation of the DM to keep your secret.

2. You say that because you can't fake the special abilities of a monk character, your party will figure it out? Unless they have specific character knowledge (i.e. are monks themselves) they shouldn't have innate knowledge of just what a monk can and can't do. This is player information, not character. This tactic is called metagaming, and should not be encouraged.

Basically, if you are a smart roleplayer, and a convincing liar, you should have little problem convincing your relatively low-level party of your true form. This is barring true seeing or the like, of course.
TieraStarr
06-13-04, 07:38 AM I just knocked the following together.

Doppelganger Racial Traits
Medium Size: A doppelganger has no special modifiers due to size.
Monstrous Humanoid Type: A doppelganger is treated as a monstrous humanoid with regards to spell effects, special abilities, and anything else dependant on type.
(Shapechanger): A doppelganger has the shapechanger subtype.
Speed 30': Doppelganger base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 60': A doppelganger can see in the dark (black and white only) up to a range of 60 feet.
Racial Skill Bonus: A doppelganger gains a +2 racial bonus to bluff and disguise skill checks.
Immunities: A doppelganger is immune to sleep and charm effects.
Change Shape (Su) (one form): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any one Small or Medium humanoid. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form as long as it chooses. The change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran.
Favoured Class: Doppelganger racial class. Upon maturity (8th), a doppelganger also considers any Rogue class levels favoured.

Doppelgangers are strange beings that are able to take on the shapes of those they encounter. In its natural form, the creature looks more or less humanoid, but slender and frail, with gangly limbs and half-formed features. The flesh is pale and hairless. Its large, bulging eyes are yellow with slitted pupils.

A doppelganger’s appearance is deceiving even when it’s in its true form. A doppelganger is hardy, with a natural agility not in keeping with its frail appearance.

Doppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived.

It is natural form a doppelganger is about 5-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

Doppelganger Racial Class

Level Benefits
Hit Dice: d8 at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels.
Base Attack Bonus: Good (+1 per racial HD).
Base Fortitude Save: Poor ((+0 +⅓ per racial class HD)
Base Reflex Save: good (+2 +½ per racial class HD)
Base Will Save: good (+2 +½ per racial class HD)
[b]Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier.
Initial Skill Points: (2 + int modifier) x 3.

Class Skills
The doppelganger's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
At 1st level, a doppelgangers racial bonus to bluff and disguise skill checks increases to +4.
*When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

Feats
A doppelganger typically selects Dodge for its initial feat, and Great Fortitude for its 3HD feat. However different individuals may choose differing feats at they see fit.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the doppelganger.
Weapon Proficiency: A doppelganger is proficient with all simple weapons.
Armor Proficiency: A doppelganger is not proficient with any armor, nor any shield.
Natural Armour: At doppelganger gains a natural armour bonus equal to its LA.
Natural Weaponry: From 1st level, a doppelganger in its natural form may make a slam attack with its powerful fists. This inflicts d6 + strength modifier hit points of damage.
Detect Thoughts (Su):
From 2nd level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th) once daily. The save DC is Charisma-based. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.
3/day: From 4th level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts thrice daily.
at will: From 6th level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts at will.
free action: From 8th level, the doppelganger may continuously detect thoughts and is no longer required to concentrate to do it. It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action.
Change Shape (Su): As above, it can remain in its humanoid form as long as it chooses. The change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.
new forms: From 3rd level, a doppelganger may change its shape to replicate a small or medium humanoid it comes into contact with. When doing so, it discards the previous form it used, and may not later re-assume it unless it once again encounters the creature it replicates.
three forms: From 5th level, the doppelganger may retain up to three forms between which it may switch. It may discard one of these forms to acquire a new one, but may only do this when in contact with the individual that is the new form it wishes to replicate.
all forms: From 7th level, the doppelganger is no longer limited to three forms, but may acquire as many forms as it encounters.
Maturity (Rogue): At 8th level, the doppelganger is considered mature, and may also consider any levels in the rogue class as favoured.

Table - Doppelganger Racial Class
Lvl HD BAB Frt R/W Special
1st 1d8 +1 +0 +2 Slam attack (d6 damage, natural form ony), +4 bluff & disguise
2nd LA+1 +1 +0 +2 Dex+2, +1 Nat AC, detect thoughts (1/day)
3rd 2d8 +2 +0 +3 Wis+2, Change Shape (new forms)
4th LA+2 +2 +0 +3 Con+2, +2 Nat AC, detect thoughts (3/day)
5th 3d8 +3 +1 +3 Int+2, Change Shape (three forms)
6th LA+3 +3 +1 +3 Str+2, +3 Nat AC, detect thoughts (at will)
7th 4d8 +4 +1 +4 Cha+2, Change Shape (all forms)
8th LA+4 +4 +1 +4 Wis+2, +4 Nat AC, detect thoughts (free action), maturity(rogue)

House Rules on Savage Progressions
You are not required to take any levels in your racial class, nor are you required to take it for your first class level. However it is your only favoured class until you reach maturity. Also, if you delay or forgoe your racial class, you will be limiting or missing out on many of the features of your race.
You only gain the bonus Initial Skill points if you take the class at first level. Otherwise the class you took at first level is used to determine your bonus Initial Skill points.
Feats are determined by total hit dice, irrespective of whether they are racial HD or non-racial class HD.
Racial HD required to reach maturity are not included when calculating ability increases.
TieraStarr
06-13-04, 07:52 AM If you and your DM choose to use the above Savage Progression for a doppelganger, and are amenable to the house rules I listed above, then I would suggest taking the rogue class at first level (for the bonus skill points). You may also like to add a martial class (for the martial weapon proficiencies). From there, I would be inclined to take the next three levels from the doppelganger racial class (to give detect thoughts - 1/day, and the ability to assume a new form). Then it would be a tough choice whether to continue the racial class, or take additional PC class levels (rogue or the martial class).

Note also, the above Savage Progression is based on the 3½ doppelganger with a listed LA+4.
Edward
06-13-04, 03:16 PM If you are worried that you fellow players will realise you are not a monk because you don’t do stunning fist and you are going to be a monk then talk to the GM. Occasionally in game say “I use my stunning fist attack” and the gm will role a dice behind the screen and say “it fails”. However this shouldn’t be necessary as not all monks have stunning fist.
Servant
06-13-04, 10:42 PM You may have more trouble impersonating a monk than you think: a doppleganger's slam attack only works when it's in its natural form.

TieraStarr: Pretty nice...
Vaettyr
06-14-04, 10:05 AM I for one would highly suggest against keeping your other players in the dark. I had a player in one of my games try this recently, and it had very dire consequences for him. He decided he wanted to play a ninja, but for his cover pretend he was a shaman. When everyone was making characters he kept saying he was playing a shaman, so everyone was glad we'd finally have a healer in the party. I didn't outright spoil his secret, but I did warn a few people OOG that they might want to buy a few extra healing potions. That right there could've been bad enough.

It ended up biting that player in the end though. He fell unconscious during a fight, so they search his person for a healing potion to bring him back. They find about 11 vials, and assume they're healing potions, since why would a shaman carry anything else (I gave them checks on this too). Turns out they fed their dying friend purple worm poison and he died on the spot.

Besides, it's a roleplaying game. Unless the other players are all prone to extreme bouts of metagaming, I like to think it's best to assume they can play their chacters as if they didn't know you were a doppleganger. It may add a little to the realism and suspense of disbelief, but in the end I don't think it's really worth it. Just let them be in charge of how their characters react.
trapspringer
06-14-04, 05:49 PM In the PHB it specifially states that the only charisma based persuasive-type skills, with the exception of intimidate, cannot be used on other players.

I have seen a game in which players were allowed to do this, and due to poor arbitration the game wound up like this:

Fighter: I charge
Rogue: No you don't, that's a bad idea. *rolls* Natural 20, total 32.
DM: Make a sense motive check.
Fighter: *rolls* Erm... 2.
DM: You don't charge.
danielinthewolvesden
06-14-04, 07:35 PM Urk. Well, a Doppelganger is way too powerful for your party. And if you're allowed to use your skills on the party (except to hide your ID) then for all intents & purposes they are going to be your slaves.

Tierastar did a pretty good job of doing up a racial progession (altho the class would need an earlier lesser disquise ability)- but I must strongly disagree with one aspect- when you are going to be a race with a progression like that- you have to start with it and keep on it until you finish it. The idea of "taking the rogue class at first level" is just wrong- IMHO. What race are you then? Remember, your PC had to be born and live out his early life- you don't spring fully formed like Athena. If you follow Tierastars reasoning- for your first level you are a "rogue" both as a race and a class?:confused: :rolleyes: :sad:
Veton
06-14-04, 08:13 PM Originally posted by trapspringer
I have seen a game in which players were allowed to do this, and due to poor arbitration the game wound up like this:

Fighter: I charge
Rogue: No you don't, that's a bad idea. *rolls* Natural 20, total 32.
DM: Make a sense motive check.
Fighter: *rolls* Erm... 2.
DM: You don't charge.

Well, that's if you let Bluff act as a Suggestion spell, which you can't do until Epic levels with a really high DC.

What the main function of Bluff does is allow you to make someone belive that you aren't lying about something. So that senario should have gone something like this:

Fighter: I charge.
Rogue: No, you shouldn't do that! There's a whole ton of goblins, with...uh...poison on their weapons!
DM: Make opposed rolls
*Both players roll, Fighter loses*
DM: Fighter, you belive what the Rogue has said.

So now the Fighter should act with this information in his head. He may not decide to charge, or if he happens to have had Neutralize Poison cast on him, he'll charge anyway.

But anyway, back to the original topic.

I just realized that the players are going to realize something's up after a while, if you keep rolling checks anytime they try to find out something about your character.
TieraStarr
06-14-04, 09:37 PM danielinthewolvesden: Tierastar did a pretty good job of doing up a racial progession (altho the class would need an earlier lesser disquise ability)- but I must strongly disagree with one aspect- when you are going to be a race with a progression like that- you have to start with it and keep on it until you finish it. The idea of "taking the rogue class at first level" is just wrong- IMHO. What race are you then? Remember, your PC had to be born and live out his early life- you don't spring fully formed like Athena. If you follow Tierastars reasoning- for your first level you are a "rogue" both as a race and a class?:confused: :rolleyes: :sad:

Is a human that takes rogue at first level a rogue both as race and class? No. The same goes for any other character. You will notice in my post the top section is entitled "Racial Traits" and that lists what the character gets regardless of whether or not they take any racial class levels.

It lists: Medium Size; Monstrous Humanoid type (ie immune to charm person spell); (Shapechanger) subtype; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +2 racial bonus to disguise and bluff checks; change shape (single alternate form only); Automatic Language Common (and a list of bonus languages); and Favoured Class Racial progression only. I think that is reasonably balanced again the core races.

Taking the first level of the racial progression will grant: simple weapon proficiency; d8 + con mod hp; +1 BAB; +2 Reflex; +2 Will; 2 + int mod skill points (x4 if taken at first character level) with class skills of Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot; +4 racial bonus to disguise and bluff checks (increased from +2); and the slam attack (in natural form only). Again, IMO, that seems a reasonable tradeoff compared to a level of a PC class (eg rogue).

However, because of the x4 skillpoints at first level, I think that anyone intending on taking rogue at some point in their career should take it at first level. And since the doppelganger gains a rogue favoured class (after completing its racial class) then it is likely that the character will want to take rogue at some point.
danielinthewolvesden
06-15-04, 12:02 AM Originally posted by TieraStarr
However, because of the x4 skillpoints at first level, I think that anyone intending on taking rogue at some point in their career should take it at first

I am absolutely certain that this is true- but it's against the rules for creatures with "monstrous hit dice".

A "hobgoblin with a level of barbarian" doesn't get that class level as his first level- he gets it last.
TieraStarr
06-15-04, 06:34 AM That is why I specified it was a house rule. In my opinion, as long as the racial progression is carefully balanced it is more equitable and balanced. I'm not certain whether your opinion is that you think it is unbalanced, or whether you are merely argueing against house rules that violate actual rules.

Originally, I considered limitations such as, your total non-racial levels may not exceed your racial levels by more than one (allowing someone to alternate between racial and class levels) but decided that the limitation was unecessary. As long as the class was carefully balanced, it did not matter if a particular character chose not to complete it.

==========

In my opinion, the only reason for that rule (that you must complete racial levels first) is to keep things as close as possible the their monster manual counterparts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Felonious Monk 06-12-04, 04:29 PM	I'm giving up DMing for a while to give another guy a shot. He's setting us up at level 3, and encouraged monster characters (we're in a wild area, he says). So I decide to play a doppeganger. My problem is this: In 3.0, doppelgangers are +3 LA. So I can play one, but without any class levels. My Bluff score is insane, so while my character can convince anyone that he's a half-elf monk, or whatever, I'd like to have the players in the dark too. A doppelganger's stats and abilities don't closely resemble any character class by themselves, except maybe monk, and once they figure out I can't use stunning fist or whatever, the game is up. I've never played a doppelganger before, or a rogue, or a character who has any reason to lie to anyone. I know the new DM is on my side on this, but he's fairly inexperienced, and the other players include some great numbercrunchers, powergamers, and our original DM. How do we pull the wool over their eyes?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-12-04, 04:54 PM	Ummm... Dopplegangers also have racial hit dice. Four of them. So you need to be in a 7th level party in order to play a doppleganger.
Felonious Monk 06-12-04, 09:35 PM	doesn't that make the race a little... underpowered? Why would anyone play a doppelganger when they could play a seventh level rogue with a hat of disguise? Anyone want to answer the actual question, which still stands even if there are mechanical problems with the specific example?
trapspringer 06-12-04, 11:18 PM	You can't actually bluff other players via in game rolls, it's all you, man. There is nothing to complex about tricking other PCs, just don't tell them and make sure no one grabs your character sheet.
Veton 06-12-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by Felonious Monk doesn't that make the race a little... underpowered? Why would anyone play a doppelganger when they could play a seventh level rogue with a hat of disguise? Not really. The HD are like class levels, they give HP, save bonuses, skill points, etc. The LA is how many levels the various powers a creature gets would be if it were a class. Originally posted by trapspringer You can't actually bluff other players via in game rolls, it's all you, man. Actually, you can. You just can't use something like Diplomacy against other PCs. As for your original question, just tell them (in game terms of course) that you are a Fighter. That way they won't know what exactly you should have. If your DM will allow it, you could prevent subconsious metagaming by saying things like "Well, I have Point Blank shot, so..."
SoldierOfFortune187 06-12-04, 11:47 PM	Why would you want to keep a secret from your party? This is the group you count on to survive in the everyday world of an adventurer. Okay, all that aside, here's my take: 1. Your party should not have free access to your character sheet. You as a person can't openly access the vital statistics and inventory, special abilities, etc. of the people around you, so it makes sense your play group (with the exception of the DM, of course) can't just take a look and find out. So, it is more on your roleplay and cooperation of the DM to keep your secret. 2. You say that because you can't fake the special abilities of a monk character, your party will figure it out? Unless they have specific character knowledge (i.e. are monks themselves) they shouldn't have innate knowledge of just what a monk can and can't do. This is player information, not character. This tactic is called metagaming, and should not be encouraged. Basically, if you are a smart roleplayer, and a convincing liar, you should have little problem convincing your relatively low-level party of your true form. This is barring true seeing or the like, of course.
TieraStarr 06-13-04, 07:38 AM	I just knocked the following together. Doppelganger Racial Traits Medium Size: A doppelganger has no special modifiers due to size. Monstrous Humanoid Type: A doppelganger is treated as a monstrous humanoid with regards to spell effects, special abilities, and anything else dependant on type. (Shapechanger): A doppelganger has the shapechanger subtype. Speed 30': Doppelganger base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision 60': A doppelganger can see in the dark (black and white only) up to a range of 60 feet. Racial Skill Bonus: A doppelganger gains a +2 racial bonus to bluff and disguise skill checks. Immunities: A doppelganger is immune to sleep and charm effects. Change Shape (Su) (one form): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any one Small or Medium humanoid. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form as long as it chooses. The change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran. Favoured Class: Doppelganger racial class. Upon maturity (8th), a doppelganger also considers any Rogue class levels favoured. Doppelgangers are strange beings that are able to take on the shapes of those they encounter. In its natural form, the creature looks more or less humanoid, but slender and frail, with gangly limbs and half-formed features. The flesh is pale and hairless. Its large, bulging eyes are yellow with slitted pupils. A doppelganger’s appearance is deceiving even when it’s in its true form. A doppelganger is hardy, with a natural agility not in keeping with its frail appearance. Doppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived. It is natural form a doppelganger is about 5-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds. Doppelganger Racial Class Level Benefits Hit Dice: d8 at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th levels. Base Attack Bonus: Good (+1 per racial HD). Base Fortitude Save: Poor ((+0 +⅓ per racial class HD) Base Reflex Save: good (+2 +½ per racial class HD) Base Will Save: good (+2 +½ per racial class HD) [b]Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + int modifier. Initial Skill Points: (2 + int modifier) x 3. Class Skills The doppelganger's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis). At 1st level, a doppelgangers racial bonus to bluff and disguise skill checks increases to +4. *When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks. Feats A doppelganger typically selects Dodge for its initial feat, and Great Fortitude for its 3HD feat. However different individuals may choose differing feats at they see fit. Class Features All of the following are class features of the doppelganger. Weapon Proficiency: A doppelganger is proficient with all simple weapons. Armor Proficiency: A doppelganger is not proficient with any armor, nor any shield. Natural Armour: At doppelganger gains a natural armour bonus equal to its LA. Natural Weaponry: From 1st level, a doppelganger in its natural form may make a slam attack with its powerful fists. This inflicts d6 + strength modifier hit points of damage. Detect Thoughts (Su): From 2nd level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th) once daily. The save DC is Charisma-based. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks. 3/day: From 4th level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts thrice daily. at will: From 6th level, a doppelganger can detect thoughts at will. free action: From 8th level, the doppelganger may continuously detect thoughts and is no longer required to concentrate to do it. It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. Change Shape (Su): As above, it can remain in its humanoid form as long as it chooses. The change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form. When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. new forms: From 3rd level, a doppelganger may change its shape to replicate a small or medium humanoid it comes into contact with. When doing so, it discards the previous form it used, and may not later re-assume it unless it once again encounters the creature it replicates. three forms: From 5th level, the doppelganger may retain up to three forms between which it may switch. It may discard one of these forms to acquire a new one, but may only do this when in contact with the individual that is the new form it wishes to replicate. all forms: From 7th level, the doppelganger is no longer limited to three forms, but may acquire as many forms as it encounters. Maturity (Rogue): At 8th level, the doppelganger is considered mature, and may also consider any levels in the rogue class as favoured. Table - Doppelganger Racial Class Lvl HD BAB Frt R/W Special 1st 1d8 +1 +0 +2 Slam attack (d6 damage, natural form ony), +4 bluff & disguise 2nd LA+1 +1 +0 +2 Dex+2, +1 Nat AC, detect thoughts (1/day) 3rd 2d8 +2 +0 +3 Wis+2, Change Shape (new forms) 4th LA+2 +2 +0 +3 Con+2, +2 Nat AC, detect thoughts (3/day) 5th 3d8 +3 +1 +3 Int+2, Change Shape (three forms) 6th LA+3 +3 +1 +3 Str+2, +3 Nat AC, detect thoughts (at will) 7th 4d8 +4 +1 +4 Cha+2, Change Shape (all forms) 8th LA+4 +4 +1 +4 Wis+2, +4 Nat AC, detect thoughts (free action), maturity(rogue) House Rules on Savage Progressions You are not required to take any levels in your racial class, nor are you required to take it for your first class level. However it is your only favoured class until you reach maturity. Also, if you delay or forgoe your racial class, you will be limiting or missing out on many of the features of your race. You only gain the bonus Initial Skill points if you take the class at first level. Otherwise the class you took at first level is used to determine your bonus Initial Skill points. Feats are determined by total hit dice, irrespective of whether they are racial HD or non-racial class HD. Racial HD required to reach maturity are not included when calculating ability increases.
TieraStarr 06-13-04, 07:52 AM	If you and your DM choose to use the above Savage Progression for a doppelganger, and are amenable to the house rules I listed above, then I would suggest taking the rogue class at first level (for the bonus skill points). You may also like to add a martial class (for the martial weapon proficiencies). From there, I would be inclined to take the next three levels from the doppelganger racial class (to give detect thoughts - 1/day, and the ability to assume a new form). Then it would be a tough choice whether to continue the racial class, or take additional PC class levels (rogue or the martial class). Note also, the above Savage Progression is based on the 3½ doppelganger with a listed LA+4.
Edward 06-13-04, 03:16 PM	If you are worried that you fellow players will realise you are not a monk because you don’t do stunning fist and you are going to be a monk then talk to the GM. Occasionally in game say “I use my stunning fist attack” and the gm will role a dice behind the screen and say “it fails”. However this shouldn’t be necessary as not all monks have stunning fist.
Servant 06-13-04, 10:42 PM	You may have more trouble impersonating a monk than you think: a doppleganger's slam attack only works when it's in its natural form. TieraStarr: Pretty nice...
Vaettyr 06-14-04, 10:05 AM	I for one would highly suggest against keeping your other players in the dark. I had a player in one of my games try this recently, and it had very dire consequences for him. He decided he wanted to play a ninja, but for his cover pretend he was a shaman. When everyone was making characters he kept saying he was playing a shaman, so everyone was glad we'd finally have a healer in the party. I didn't outright spoil his secret, but I did warn a few people OOG that they might want to buy a few extra healing potions. That right there could've been bad enough. It ended up biting that player in the end though. He fell unconscious during a fight, so they search his person for a healing potion to bring him back. They find about 11 vials, and assume they're healing potions, since why would a shaman carry anything else (I gave them checks on this too). Turns out they fed their dying friend purple worm poison and he died on the spot. Besides, it's a roleplaying game. Unless the other players are all prone to extreme bouts of metagaming, I like to think it's best to assume they can play their chacters as if they didn't know you were a doppleganger. It may add a little to the realism and suspense of disbelief, but in the end I don't think it's really worth it. Just let them be in charge of how their characters react.
trapspringer 06-14-04, 05:49 PM	In the PHB it specifially states that the only charisma based persuasive-type skills, with the exception of intimidate, cannot be used on other players. I have seen a game in which players were allowed to do this, and due to poor arbitration the game wound up like this: Fighter: I charge Rogue: No you don't, that's a bad idea. rolls Natural 20, total 32. DM: Make a sense motive check. Fighter: rolls Erm... 2. DM: You don't charge.
danielinthewolvesden 06-14-04, 07:35 PM	Urk. Well, a Doppelganger is way too powerful for your party. And if you're allowed to use your skills on the party (except to hide your ID) then for all intents & purposes they are going to be your slaves. Tierastar did a pretty good job of doing up a racial progession (altho the class would need an earlier lesser disquise ability)- but I must strongly disagree with one aspect- when you are going to be a race with a progression like that- you have to start with it and keep on it until you finish it. The idea of "taking the rogue class at first level" is just wrong- IMHO. What race are you then? Remember, your PC had to be born and live out his early life- you don't spring fully formed like Athena. If you follow Tierastars reasoning- for your first level you are a "rogue" both as a race and a class?:confused: :rolleyes: :sad:
Veton 06-14-04, 08:13 PM	Originally posted by trapspringer I have seen a game in which players were allowed to do this, and due to poor arbitration the game wound up like this: Fighter: I charge Rogue: No you don't, that's a bad idea. rolls Natural 20, total 32. DM: Make a sense motive check. Fighter: rolls Erm... 2. DM: You don't charge. Well, that's if you let Bluff act as a Suggestion spell, which you can't do until Epic levels with a really high DC. What the main function of Bluff does is allow you to make someone belive that you aren't lying about something. So that senario should have gone something like this: Fighter: I charge. Rogue: No, you shouldn't do that! There's a whole ton of goblins, with...uh...poison on their weapons! DM: Make opposed rolls Both players roll, Fighter loses DM: Fighter, you belive what the Rogue has said. So now the Fighter should act with this information in his head. He may not decide to charge, or if he happens to have had Neutralize Poison cast on him, he'll charge anyway. But anyway, back to the original topic. I just realized that the players are going to realize something's up after a while, if you keep rolling checks anytime they try to find out something about your character.
TieraStarr 06-14-04, 09:37 PM	danielinthewolvesden: Tierastar did a pretty good job of doing up a racial progession (altho the class would need an earlier lesser disquise ability)- but I must strongly disagree with one aspect- when you are going to be a race with a progression like that- you have to start with it and keep on it until you finish it. The idea of "taking the rogue class at first level" is just wrong- IMHO. What race are you then? Remember, your PC had to be born and live out his early life- you don't spring fully formed like Athena. If you follow Tierastars reasoning- for your first level you are a "rogue" both as a race and a class?:confused: :rolleyes: :sad: Is a human that takes rogue at first level a rogue both as race and class? No. The same goes for any other character. You will notice in my post the top section is entitled "Racial Traits" and that lists what the character gets regardless of whether or not they take any racial class levels. It lists: Medium Size; Monstrous Humanoid type (ie immune to charm person spell); (Shapechanger) subtype; Speed 30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +2 racial bonus to disguise and bluff checks; change shape (single alternate form only); Automatic Language Common (and a list of bonus languages); and Favoured Class Racial progression only. I think that is reasonably balanced again the core races. Taking the first level of the racial progression will grant: simple weapon proficiency; d8 + con mod hp; +1 BAB; +2 Reflex; +2 Will; 2 + int mod skill points (x4 if taken at first character level) with class skills of Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot; +4 racial bonus to disguise and bluff checks (increased from +2); and the slam attack (in natural form only). Again, IMO, that seems a reasonable tradeoff compared to a level of a PC class (eg rogue). However, because of the x4 skillpoints at first level, I think that anyone intending on taking rogue at some point in their career should take it at first level. And since the doppelganger gains a rogue favoured class (after completing its racial class) then it is likely that the character will want to take rogue at some point.
danielinthewolvesden 06-15-04, 12:02 AM	Originally posted by TieraStarr However, because of the x4 skillpoints at first level, I think that anyone intending on taking rogue at some point in their career should take it at first I am absolutely certain that this is true- but it's against the rules for creatures with "monstrous hit dice". A "hobgoblin with a level of barbarian" doesn't get that class level as his first level- he gets it last.
TieraStarr 06-15-04, 06:34 AM	That is why I specified it was a house rule. In my opinion, as long as the racial progression is carefully balanced it is more equitable and balanced. I'm not certain whether your opinion is that you think it is unbalanced, or whether you are merely argueing against house rules that violate actual rules. Originally, I considered limitations such as, your total non-racial levels may not exceed your racial levels by more than one (allowing someone to alternate between racial and class levels) but decided that the limitation was unecessary. As long as the class was carefully balanced, it did not matter if a particular character chose not to complete it. ========== In my opinion, the only reason for that rule (that you must complete racial levels first) is to keep things as close as possible the their monster manual counterparts.