Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnwhitmyre 03-30-07, 03:58 PM	for some reason, and this has always been true. my group of friends only like to play the evil pcs. they hate the good guys especially my Paladins. is there anyway i could somehow "play" a paladin in an evil group(though i know the code says no) what about if my deity commanded me to do this.....say i had fallen...but for my atonement i was given my abilities back but had to go along with an evil party to see exactly what i may turn into if i stayed my path(but this can be argued to the opposite....seeing so much evil you will turn to evil) HELP! or how could i make my friends see the fun in good? Or LN,CN,N.
Rarehunter X 03-30-07, 04:07 PM	I had a similar problem. I'd go with what you said, with the atonement and all. Or you could play the voice of reason. Try to, in game, get the other PCs to turn good. I dunno, it might make good role playing, but as far as a group goes it may be dysfunctional. You could always just talk to your friends, see if they'll play a "good" campaign this time. Or you could pick another class. I've tried playing the Paladin a few times and every time it gets screwed up because of my group. Hope this helps.
Cariyaga 03-30-07, 04:11 PM	I think that there is an evil paladin...Not sure what book, though.
johnwhitmyre 03-30-07, 04:17 PM	no i want the Good one lol. i think in our new campaign im gonna have the dm play in the warcraft style, only the fighter, rogue, sorc, barbarian and cleric i think are playable. paladin is a PrC(and good not only LG) as well as the Ranger, etc.
johnwhitmyre 03-30-07, 04:20 PM	yeah, they play the EVIL pcs. havent done the torture yet, but many play to become Thralls, assassins, etc. they love poison use, murder, etc. this is not a group for a paladin. i could try this, with the atonement and all, but some how they have the same goal. i need this warlord destroyed but they want to kill the warlord as well, but from there our plans are different, i want peace but they want to take over his army.
Fox Lupine 03-30-07, 04:51 PM	The thing is, most possibilities point to death, or loss of power....... Here are a few ideas A Noble Lord of the chruch of Pelor approaches you (a LG fighter) with a cry for help! He needs you to go undercover and follow the evil abominations, foiling their plans. as you progress, you are knighted as a paladin of Pelor for services (houseruled for the evil party, which makes it unlikely) A great paladin falls in battle to his quarry of a long time, and they take him prisoner. Now, the paladin is baited by nthe party at every opertuinty to fall from his lords grace....or maybe he already has Maybe a paladin starts a crusade to destroy the warlord......when he is approached by a group of shift charactersm, who also 'wish to end the warlords evil' >) a lie of course, but if the paladin believes it, he'll welcome the help from these liars
Cifer 03-30-07, 05:16 PM	Sorry, paladins just don't work in an evil group when they are not intended to fall or the evil guys to be redeemed. Once a paladin can get along with evil characters, the class has been so thoroughly altered that there is nothing left which says "paladin" anymore. What part of the paladin is there that you would like to conserve? You might try the Crusader, Paladin of Tyranny or Knight, all of them orderly warrior characters with a religious touch, but much more fitting with the party.
Perseus_Stoned 03-30-07, 05:24 PM	What do you like playing about the paladin? If its the roleplaying, then I say you're S.O.L. and should suggest that your group eventually play a "traditional" good-oriented game. If not, just change the flavor text of the paladin, a few abilities, and you're golden: the neutral/evil paladin (there are also unearthed arcana variants, have you checked those out?).
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-30-07, 05:27 PM	or how could i make my friends see the fun in good? Run a game yourself, require them to play Good alignments, and work you ass off to make it as fun as possible.
darkdragonk 03-30-07, 11:39 PM	Palidan of Tyranny is a base class i believe
Horus_Sungod 03-30-07, 11:42 PM	Well, you can have a paladin of tyranny or a paladin of carnage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) You can now be a 100% paladin in an evil party! If you still want to be good, well I fear your options are short...
Goldenmaxter 03-30-07, 11:59 PM	...Isn't the answer obvious? Blackguard! Just think of yourself as a paladin for a different type of zeal. They also get some pretty sweet spells/special abilities. Just take a few Cleric levels and change to a Blackguard. :) Hope that helps.
nightwyrm 03-31-07, 01:27 AM	I assume you want to play a paladin in the traditional sense instead of "evil unholy knight" with abilities mimicing the pally? The short answer is that you can't. Not with a group that isn't into playing good/heroic campaigns. You'll probably need to find another group to play paladin with. Once someone thinks roleplaying evil is fun and roleplaying good is stupid, it's very hard to turn that around.
skywyze 03-31-07, 01:32 AM	Simple! Take Improved Grapple and an Item of Enlarge. Buy several Helms of Opposite Alignment. Proceed to grapple each one of them in their sleep and force the helmet onto their heads. Voila, now you're all do-gooders. ^_^
RorixBladewing 03-31-07, 01:49 AM	How do Paladins work in an evil group? By busting some heads, of course! You need to 'educate' them. With your sword.
johnwhitmyre 03-31-07, 01:49 AM	or, since my group would never think of that, i should just say that these helms are gifts, each one will give you a special power unlike the other. also, it will be easier for them to fall for this since im bringing in my new bard into our campaign and this new pc is offering the group gifts for exchange of friendship(hopes to not be killed in sleep, or thieved). this will work great!!!!! thanks guys!
RorixBladewing 03-31-07, 02:14 AM	I still say you lay the holy smacketh downeth upon their heathen heads.
danielinthewolvesden 03-31-07, 03:46 AM	Play with Grownups?:D
HappyPenguinOnAStick 03-31-07, 06:23 AM	Dunno, but I doubt disturbing the game would make em "see the light" or however you wanna phrase it. Actually if it was me ill be rather unwilling to play with you again if you single handedly destroyed a campaign because it wasent like you wanted it to be (A bit to "im 13 and fighting my Dad" for me). I mean I dont even like D&D and I play it all the time (Childhood friends love this game) and still manages to have fun. How about you play along this time, since the majority of the group wants to play the "Evil Style" and then talk to them about playing a good campaign next? Ive managed to get my D&D grp to play CoC a few times and they really enjoy it (Not the D20 one, the old CoC game). Try to Fit into the campaign rather then destroy it with Helms of Raidroading and other stuff like that... Just a idear. And if they dont want to play good campaigns AT ALL (Which I so highly doubt to be true) well then you need to find another group rather then destroy other peoples fun... Again Just a idear.
High Octane 03-31-07, 08:14 AM	Well, you can have a paladin of tyranny or a paladin of carnage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) You can now be a 100% paladin in an evil party! No, you see he wants to play a PALADIN, not a misnomered blackguard base class with the paladin label slapped on artifically and non-sensically.
High Octane 03-31-07, 08:15 AM	I still say you lay the holy smacketh downeth upon their heathen heads. Can you SMEEEEELLLLLLLELELELELELLLLLl what The Rock..... is smiting?
Cartigan 03-31-07, 09:59 AM	Two things: too bad. You want to play the tight-wad class in a campaign that doesn't support it come hell or high water and in doing so force everyone else to not play how they want to play. Hypocritical, no? Why not just play some other stuck up class, like Samurai.
skywyze 03-31-07, 12:40 PM	Apparently a lot of people here don't know how to play a paladin. A paladin is not a "tight wad" or the "friendly neighborhood douchebag." Hell, nothing about a paladin suggests he even has to be nice to people. Also, I meant the Helm of Opposite Alignments idea as a joke. If you're in an evil campaign, then emphasize the law-abiding aspect over the Good aspect of playing a paladin. Hell, play a paladin of Wee Jas - she may seem evil, but she's LN, so she's a perfectly valid paladin deity. That way you can serve alongside Blackguards in-character and smite those who oppose your god. Each god has a different definition of what constitues Good and Right in the world. If you follow Wee Jas' definition, then you'll be a lot more easy to get along with in an all-evil campaign.
Zandolit 03-31-07, 02:23 PM	Do your friends know how much you want to play this class? If not, make sure they do. Everyone should get a turn to play what they want, rather than them getting to always and you never. If that means the campaign has to be a little different than normal... cool. It's fun to change things up. This depends on their agreement, of course, but make sure they know how much it means to you. I do not suggest changing their alignment against their will. That will just make them mad at you out of game, because you're messing with their characters without their permission. Think about how you'd feel if you made your paladin and they did the same to you. I imagine you would-- rightly-- be pretty upset, and so will they. That isn't a good solution (and was suggested only as a joke, I think.) I think your best option is to get them to play a good campaign for once. Sorry, paladins just don't work in an evil group when they are not intended to fall or the evil guys to be redeemed. In my experience, that is true. Now, it may just have been my group, but it didn't go well for us at all. We weren't even an all evil party. The other party members were LG, NG, CG, CN, CN/E (that one was hard to call,) and LE. We were facing a situation so desperate and potentially world-ending that it totally made sense for the paladin to work with us (as he was, in fact, told to by his superiors.) But... it just never happened, and it wasn't much fun. The paladin simply couldn't be flexible enough to get along with the party. We had to work constantly to keep the party tension from getting out of hand. Not exactly the ideal RP experience. I really, really suggest keeping the paladins in Good campaigns. Less frustrating for everyone that way...
johnwhitmyre 03-31-07, 02:47 PM	Dunno, but I doubt disturbing the game would make em "see the light" or however you wanna phrase it. Actually if it was me ill be rather unwilling to play with you again if you single handedly destroyed a campaign because it wasent like you wanted it to be (A bit to "im 13 and fighting my Dad" for me). I mean I dont even like D&D and I play it all the time (Childhood friends love this game) and still manages to have fun. How about you play along this time, since the majority of the group wants to play the "Evil Style" and then talk to them about playing a good campaign next? Ive managed to get my D&D grp to play CoC a few times and they really enjoy it (Not the D20 one, the old CoC game). Try to Fit into the campaign rather then destroy it with Helms of Raidroading and other stuff like that... Just a idear. And if they dont want to play good campaigns AT ALL (Which I so highly doubt to be true) well then you need to find another group rather then destroy other peoples fun... Again Just a idear. the thing is, if it was the 1st campaign i wouldnt mind. we have been playing together for 2-3 years now and on our 3rd campaign and they are always evil and i bring it up every campaign. so i dont know, i guess i will just keep riding it out. its not making me not wanna play, it just gets old sometimes. but thanks for the feed back.
johnwhitmyre 03-31-07, 02:55 PM	Do your friends know how much you want to play this class? If not, make sure they do. Everyone should get a turn to play what they want, rather than them getting to always and you never. If that means the campaign has to be a little different than normal... cool. It's fun to change things up. This depends on their agreement, of course, but make sure they know how much it means to you. I do not suggest changing their alignment against their will. That will just make them mad at you out of game, because you're messing with their characters without their permission. Think about how you'd feel if you made your paladin and they did the same to you. I imagine you would-- rightly-- be pretty upset, and so will they. That isn't a good solution (and was suggested only as a joke, I think.) I think your best option is to get them to play a good campaign for once. In my experience, that is true. Now, it may just have been my group, but it didn't go well for us at all. We weren't even an all evil party. The other party members were LG, NG, CG, CN, CN/E (that one was hard to call,) and LE. We were facing a situation so desperate and potentially world-ending that it totally made sense for the paladin to work with us (as he was, in fact, told to by his superiors.) But... it just never happened, and it wasn't much fun. The paladin simply couldn't be flexible enough to get along with the party. We had to work constantly to keep the party tension from getting out of hand. Not exactly the ideal RP experience. I really, really suggest keeping the paladins in Good campaigns. Less frustrating for everyone that way... ok to quote you and the other guy. my dm did do this to me, i was playing my fun paladin(which he hates the good campaigns...the old dm) and to fix this he had me be turned into a vampire. also Cartigan Two things: too bad. You want to play the tight-wad class in a campaign that doesn't support it come hell or high water and in doing so force everyone else to not play how they want to play. Hypocritical, no? Why not just play some other stuck up class, like Samurai...... every campaign is like this, its either a completely evil campaign, a stealth campaign, or something other.......i do not want to change the campaign or the players(the helm of alignment was a joke as well), but i've been giving for 2-3 yrs i would just think it would be fair. i say, give the good game a try if you dont like it, so be it, all i wanna try is like a mini adventure say one of the book like Sunless Citadel or such. if they dont like it they can at most say they have tried it.
MikeN 03-31-07, 03:00 PM	no i want the Good one lol. i think in our new campaign im gonna have the dm play in the warcraft style, only the fighter, rogue, sorc, barbarian and cleric i think are playable. paladin is a PrC(and good not only LG) as well as the Ranger, etc. The "warcraft style". If it's like WoW, then your paladin is closer to CE than anything else, anyway (trust me, I've played Horde for quite a bit and that's how alliance pallys generally behave; and yes I know that there are jerks who play Horde too...) RP'ing is a collaborative enterprise. Either you change, your group changes, your character changes, or else you play with some other people...
navar100 03-31-07, 08:47 PM	I assume you want to play a paladin in the traditional sense instead of "evil unholy knight" with abilities mimicing the pally? The short answer is that you can't. Not with a group that isn't into playing good/heroic campaigns. You'll probably need to find another group to play paladin with. Once someone thinks roleplaying evil is fun and roleplaying good is stupid, it's very hard to turn that around. Once you go down the path of the dark side, forever will it control your destiny. :D Of course, Luke did prove Yoda wrong. ;)
IdleAltruism 04-01-07, 03:56 AM	Play a paladin with 8 wisdom and 8 int surrounded by very smart evil players. Make it the evil players goal to further the paladins cause, by any means necessary hint hint. If you feel your group is up to it you can up the paladins mental stats. It should be the rest of the parties goal to help as subtly as possible while maintaining their alignment. Makes for great roleplaying and good plothooks for the dm. Also, lawful good does not mean lawful stupid. Paladins are not wound as tight as many people seem to think, the "I'll fight anything evil" attitude is not good its a paladin with 9 wisdom who thinks its a good act to kill himself needlessly. My group went through a phase recently where they wanted to be evil all the time, well if thats what they want give it to them. Be as evil as you can be, I mean really really evil. For my group it was just the idea of being a little bad that made them want to be evil. Show them what evil really is, it might be slightly humorous at first, after a short while they were eviled out. Evil may seem cool to start but I find its actually alot harder on both the dm and players to run. Just my :twocents:
High Octane 04-01-07, 08:24 AM	Okay lets make something clear, you dont just want to play the paladin CLASS, you want to play the paladin CHARACTER right? The knight of justice idea? Now if you are in an evil party, it wont happen. It just wont. You will have to either find a new game or change the one you are in drastically.
Kradlo 04-01-07, 11:28 AM	You're in a classic moral dilemma. You have a desire to play a shiningly good character, which is normally a wonderful choice. But, the group with which you play only play baddies. You have several choices: You can try to persuade your friends to abandon evil, either having their characters find redemption or make new characters. The chances of this happening are slim to none, and slim just left town. They have a playing style they enjoy, and they're not going to change, at least not for quite some time (if ever). Don't expect an epiphany on their part; it isn't going to happen. You can create your paladin and enter the group as they are. You'll then find yourself at odds with the Paladin's Code, and you'll have to try to take down the entire group. Outnumbered and outgunned, and probably facing sneaky tactics, your paladin will die and the evil PCs will begin divvying up his gear. You can create your paladin, enter the group, and ignore the Code. You'll then lose your paladinhood, and basically have a fighter without the bonus feats. You can ditch the paladin/hero concept and play a neutral or evil character, and be welcomed in the group. This may or may not be an enjoyable experience for you, depending on just how evil they like to play, and how much or little this works for you. You can ditch the group and find another gaming group that will accept a paladin without problems. If there are other gaming groups in your area, this is workable solution. You can start your own campaign as Game Master, and declare that PCs are of good alignment, or any non-evil. If you're willing and able to take up the job of GM, this could be another workable solution. Good luck!
MaryContrary 04-01-07, 11:56 AM	...You can start your own campaign as Game Master, and declare that PCs are of good alignment, or any non-evil. If you're willing and able to take up the job of GM, this could be another workable solution... I'd go this way...and through everything in the Book of Vile Darkness at them. :bravo:
RorixBladewing 04-01-07, 02:18 PM	Just wanted to mention I still stand by my Holy Smack Down idea.
Echo_that_Pains 04-01-07, 02:31 PM	Apparently a lot of people here don't know how to play a paladin. A paladin is not a "tight wad" or the "friendly neighborhood douchebag." Hell, nothing about a paladin suggests he even has to be nice to people. Also, I meant the Helm of Opposite Alignments idea as a joke. If you're in an evil campaign, then emphasize the law-abiding aspect over the Good aspect of playing a paladin. Hell, play a paladin of Wee Jas - she may seem evil, but she's LN, so she's a perfectly valid paladin deity. That way you can serve alongside Blackguards in-character and smite those who oppose your god. Each god has a different definition of what constitues Good and Right in the world. If you follow Wee Jas' definition, then you'll be a lot more easy to get along with in an all-evil campaign. Quoted for truth. Everyone who plays a paladin only focuses on 1/2 of the alignment that they are required to take - the "Good" side. Think of playing a paladin that foucses 99% on the Lawful aspect with good tendencies. Wee Jas is a PERFECT example of a diety. You will be able to adventure with your evil companions basing your convictions of the letter of the law (lawful), as well as having mercy and compassion on people that the rest of your group might not. If they do something "evil", so be it as long as it is lawful - your character can simply turn aside while their actions transpire as long as it is within the bounds of the law. This idea would work perfectly for you, as long as you are not stuck on the "Knight-in-shining-armor-who-can-do-no-wrong" cliche.
Aufenshauft 04-01-07, 03:02 PM	Logical fallacies so far: Good characters innately try to 'redeem' or 'convert' evil characters evil characters will innately try to kill off good characters playing evil characters is immature (may be true in this case) in order to play a good fighter-type, you have to be a paladin Assuming you don't have any evil clerics directly furthering their god's evil plots (and maybe even then), you shouldn't have to worry about inter-party conflicts so long as you don't start any with them. If the other PCs do, then you can know that you have a bad playing group that you might as well leave because they won't accept you unless you 'fit in' their clik. It sounds like you want to play a good warrior or front-line type. This is fine. Just make a character who is truly good but pragmatic with the same goals as the others. He may just see the other characters as 'messy' or even just 'immature'. This would be easiest with a character which uses the same irregular warfare strategies that the 'evil' characters do. Perhaps you have the same fetish for ambushes, but because it can be more surgical and allows you to put fear in the enemy- a psychological warfare tactic which can stop armies where challenging them to a duel would not. Ranger fits this ideal very well. A Fighter startup with some other prestige class later is another good ideal. (ex. Kensais are very lawful, and good as an optional trait). Another route would make a LG Rogue warrior type who is more of a special forces fighter. He would realize that getting things done would be about teamwork and sometimes doing things that the nobles don't like, but cannot be done any other way. Sort of a good vigilante that would work easily with evil characters so long as the mission is accomplished and they aren't walking around starting their own evil plots. Going to the extreme, take the same character and have him just be unlucky, and he knows he needs the evil tough guys around to clean up messy situations that will inevitably erupt (missing his diplomacy roll, or missing severely in the first round of an ambush). Good is respect for all sentient creatures, but you aren't forced to save babies in your spare time. You can be greedy or 'end justifies the means' to some degree so long as your character does not truly break the spirit of the alignment. Keep that in mind.
twad 04-01-07, 06:34 PM	Run a game yourself, require them to play Good alignments, and work you ass off to make it as fun as possible. If they play evil show them that there is consequences to their actions. Consequences include death of their PCs by the hand of "police", or High-level NPCs ect. When they play good, show them that they got the trust and support of those they helped.
CaptainPicard 04-01-07, 06:47 PM	If you're not particularly interested in the mechanics of the actual Paladin class, you can play a Lawful Good Crusader, Fighter, Knight, or any number of similar classes, and simply decide that unlike the Paladin, your character is willing to associate and work with lesser evil for the greater good. It depends what the goals of the evil characters are, though. If it's the kind of game where they just go around attacking people and messing things up, then that isn't going to work. If the end of the world is on the horizon, then it certainly does work. One can certainly be willing to work with a heartless mercenary to save the world and still be of good alignment.
johnwhitmyre 04-01-07, 10:21 PM	I dont wanna change this campaign, i just want in the future to play REAL paladin. We are gonna do a Warcraft Style Campaign in the next year, so i will use the Paladin PrC.
HappyPenguinOnAStick 04-02-07, 07:00 AM	If they play evil show them that there is consequences to their actions. Consequences include death of their PCs by the hand of "police", or High-level NPCs ect. Well isent that part of the fun of playing "Evil" (Evading the law and so on)? Ive never really understood what people say when they say "its a Evil Campaign", I must admit that I like to play rogue like classes with either a AL of LE or NE, tho I think them more like Cyric from Times of Trouble... Before he went totally abesh** that is. Just because your aligment says "Evil" dosent mean you are a complet nutjob. Ive never backstabbed my group or killed them off randomly because they had 2 coins on em, when I played a "Evil" character... Behaviour like that seems more fit for a mentally challenged person. You can be evil (Ive always though that the word "Evil" was missused in D&D, well in some cases it is) and do good things, lots of people are like that in our own world, so how come they cant be like that in our world? Dunno, ive always though of the AL LE and NE as more of a flexible view on the world. And if there are more advantages to being good like you said, wont "Evil" people take that route instead (Faking good is you will)? Cause in your campaign world there is more to gain? I just cant phantom how People think sometimes, or understand it, so please do explaine it for me. Sidenote - One of the funnist "Evil" campaigns ive played in was pretty basic, we were just robbers living in the woods, gathering information about caravens and then robbing then and so on... It only lasted 2 months or so but it was hecka fun moving around over the world and doing "bad" deeds (normally envolving stealing). The wierd thing is that we killed less then we normally do in our normal campaigns. Random Rant over.... what the hell was the point of this post again? :P