Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BobtheBiotitan 05-14-06, 09:03 PM	I have a problem. The group of people I play DnD with are mostly made up of people who have been playing for at least seven years. In that space of time none of them have changed from straight hack and slash players to roleplayers. I have been playing DnD for two years now. In that time I have gone from straight Hack and Slash to almost a pure roleplayer. It frustrates me when I try to roleplay and they ignore the attempt, or even worse is when they try to end the conversation to get on with the killing. Our characters almost never speak to each other. They avoid this by using out of character knowledge in character. Heres an example. During the heat of battle my character was encased in a globe of darkness. I basically did nothing for the rest of the battle due to not being able to see. After the darkness ended I saw that half the party was unconcious, a few were almost there, and one was dismembered. I did my best to stablize the unconcious ones. I then started asking the characters what happened during the rest of the battle. At that point they just stared at me like I was stupid. Out of character they said "Dude you heard the whole thing. Why are you asking us if you already know?" My reply was "My character doesn't know that." I know the above example was extreme, but thing like that happen all the time. Like I tried to feed my dog, but he wouldn't eat. Everyone was like "Dude didn't you see him maul and then eat that Cocatrice?" Then I replied "No! I was under the damn globe of Darkness!" Another one would be this. My character had found a secret stash and I had shown the contents minus a few gp to the rest of the party. For the rest of the adventure they kept an eye on me because I always wanted more than my "fair share". I have actually made some progress with them. Occasionally we will stop in town and have a few chats with the towns people to get an update on world happenings. Sadly I have resorted to writing notes to the DM about my doings so they wont use out of Character knowledge. I kinda works... What can I do? Please help me. As an after thought I must say that I cannot leave this gaming group as they are made up of my closest friends. I would rather help them change then do that, but I would rather quit then waste a weekend doing nothing more then "Creeping" the monsters around the town.
Grunj 05-14-06, 09:42 PM	Does the DM like to roleplay? If the answer is no, then your options are pretty thin. If the DM runs it like a video game, then that is what the players will expect. Talk to the DM and the players. Tell them that you would like to try the challenge of roleplaying without meta-game knowledge. Ask them to try a session using only first person pronouns, instead of "My character...." If the DM can meet the hack and slash and roleplaying needs of the group (the two are not mutually exclusive, despite what some gaming factions would have us believe) then everybody can have a good time. From my experience, games tend to disintegrate into hack and slash because there are no in-game consequences for murder. I run a game where the players can kill whomever they like. But the local judge can too. And he likes to kill characters who kill other people without a good reason. Divination and necromancy spells make solving whodunnits a whole lot easier. It's really funny listening to the group work out their story about how the decapitated Ravager became decapitated. Even when it is a righteous bust, they are still uneasy...because there are consequences for good and for bad behavior. And they realize that dead bodies are going to be investigated. So they walk the line; staying, barely, to within the law. It's great. Let's be honest. The core principal of D&D is "kill things and take their stuff." Go into the dungeon and clear it. In today's terms that's home invasion, murder, felony murder, robbery, burglary, aggravated assault...and one moving violation. The challenge is to provide a plot where the PCs can kill things and take their stuff in a socially acceptable manner. In some games that may include genocide and ethnic cleansing of goblins and orcs. But not in my game. In my game the PC's are the D&D equivalaent of bounty hunters and bail bondsmen. They get paid to bring back dangerous criminals and rogue monsters, sometimes alive and sometimes not. Has something been stolen? The PCs get hired to retrieve it. They get paid in bounties and fees. They also get to keep anything they find on the bad guy unless they are being paid to return it. They answer to the local authorities, who use spells like discern lies to get to the bottom of what happened. They get to kill things and take their stuff, but only under carefully defined circumstances. Right now the PCs are on their way to White Plume Mountain to recover a magic sword. They have a warrant for it and are empowered by the Church of Heironeous to enter the premises of the alleged lair of the wizard Keraptis, there being a reasonable suspicion that said wizard is unlawfully in possession of the sword Black Razor, for which the owner of record, Greenteeth the Bugbear, has sworn out an affadavit that said property was stolen from him two weeks past.
Azezel 05-15-06, 05:29 AM	There is a concept - one you apparantly hold, of 'evolution' that rp is better than H&S and that the former will inevitably overtake the latter, given enough time, due to the former's sheer superiority. Now I much preffer rp to H&S - but I'm not going to say that rp is better, or that as your friends mature, they will suddenly see the light and start speaking in character. Fact of the matter is, some people are only in it for the killing, and they are having as much fun as the rest of us (apparantly). It's a pain to tell you, but if your friends like H&S, and not rp after seven years then they are probably not going to change now. Sorry mate...
Gilean 05-15-06, 10:33 AM	If the DM can meet the hack and slash and roleplaying needs of the group (the two are not mutually exclusive, despite what some gaming factions would have us believe) then everybody can have a good time.This is true.Talk to the DM and the players. Tell them that you would like to try the challenge of roleplaying without meta-game knowledge. Ask them to try a session using only first person pronouns, instead of "My character...."And this is great advice.
Order 66(6) 05-15-06, 12:00 PM	You could try to get them to roleplay, but seven years is a long time. Then again, it could just take one good roleplayer to open them up to it and see how much fun it is. Give it a shot, and then if they aren't getting it, you may have to move on or grow to love hack and slash, which could be hard for you. I understand how you're feeling though, I'm one of those people who (controversially, I guess) thinks that games which incorporate roleplaying are better than straight hack and slash games because I think they are a more fulfilling experience. But give it a shot. I've found that one of the major reasons people don't roleplay is because they think its dorky (eg. their self conscious about it). I would stress though that nobody is gonna laugh or think they're stupid for roleplaying, especially if everyone else is doing it too.
atog_eater 05-15-06, 12:38 PM	Maybe get the DM to run an investagative session whith no killing just finding out who killed somebody else. it thrusts the players into a situation where they have to talk to people, youll need your DMs good will for this though as they will need to write it. it's a game like this that turned me from a rollpalyer player to a roleplayer so it could work for your friends aswell.
Dei 05-15-06, 01:36 PM	Maybe get the DM to run an investagative session whith no killing just finding out who killed somebody else. it thrusts the players into a situation where they have to talk to people, youll need your DMs good will for this though as they will need to write it. it's a game like this that turned me from a rollpalyer player to a roleplayer so it could work for your friends aswell. I'd be tad cautious about something like this as suddenly going from "Ring their bells with swords and spells" to an entire session of roleplay could be something of a shock to the system for the players. A gradual introduction would probably be best, i.e. have an investigation session where roleplaying is needed but sprinkle it with encounters to let them get it out of their system. And if they slaughter their way to the goal? Well the city watch are unlikely to be happy that their pleasant streets have been made to run red, let's see them rp to a judge. I would definately warn them not only OOC but also IC that wholesale slaughter is not an option though otherwise they will naturally assume everything is normal and take sudden consequences for their actions as a DM trap. Once you've started them on the path though and they see that greater benefit can be achieved through rping some things they should be more receptive of it in future. Another good idea would be for him to give each of the characters some IC knowledge which they have some reason to keep from the others whilst letting it be known that secrets are being kept. This will force them to rp at least a little which is a start. As has been mentioned however, if your DM isn't on board with the idea there's really not much you can do about it.
devinmdp 05-15-06, 11:38 PM	I was with you until you mentioned the instance of having your PC withhold gold from the party. Yes...I know you are only "roleplaying" a character who is inclined to do that, but really, tell me what stealing from the other PCs adds to the enjoyment of the game? The only possible outcome is for them to let you cheat them out of the reward of their hard earned play, or to eventually get into a PvP situation. You are hurting your own cause if by "roleplaying" you seem to mean "playing a jerk". I suggest you drop the sticky fingers and engage in roleplaying that actually benefits the party. Devin
kelvinaw273 05-16-06, 04:33 AM	RP and Hack'n'Slash are not mutually exclusive, and the best games have a combination of both. Having said that, the other players clearly don't understand the difference between in-character and OOC knowledge. They probably see your RPing as being a pain, because it does not benefit them. To make this work you may well have to take the reigns and DM a small campaign yourself. Make it low powered (so they have to think) and intellectually oriented (so that thinking and RPing pays off). Insist on taking people out of the room when their characters are not present until they get the hang of IC and OOC knowledge. If that fails, then make your next PC a Frenzied Beserker ... guarenteed to ween anyone off hack'n'slash after their seconed or third character gets wiped by his rages ....
dragonseth 05-16-06, 10:46 PM	If that fails, then make your next PC a Frenzied Beserker ... guarenteed to ween anyone off hack'n'slash after their seconed or third character gets wiped by his rages .... Once again, either Magic Missile, a Frenzied Berserker, or a swift kick in the a** solves the problem. :D You'd be surprised how often these 3 things have solved issues in our games and others. On topic, we have some Hack and Slashers in our group as well. Putting them through one of our latest adventures completely solved the issue though: Basically, we spent a good 3 sessions planning to overthrow a dictator, digging tunnels, organizing protests, gathering forces and influence, deciding when/how we do all this, and doing it. Finally, we initiated a V-day ( :D ) and freed an entire kingdom. There was this huge over-arcing plot involving deities, teleporting lava, and inevitables. It was amazing, long, converted people into roleplayers, and our DM completely pulled the thing out of his a** as we went along. :D
Grey_Mage 05-16-06, 11:52 PM	I was with you until you mentioned the instance of having your PC withhold gold from the party. Yes...I know you are only "roleplaying" a character who is inclined to do that, but really, tell me what stealing from the other PCs adds to the enjoyment of the game? The only possible outcome is for them to let you cheat them out of the reward of their hard earned play, or to eventually get into a PvP situation. You are hurting your own cause if by "roleplaying" you seem to mean "playing a jerk". I suggest you drop the sticky fingers and engage in roleplaying that actually benefits the party. Devin Believe it or not there are people out there who are not all about what "benefits the party". Its not the player nessecairily its the character. Ive gone from playing a paladin whod give you the shirt off his back one campaign to a fighter/rogue who you had to keep your eye on from time to time because he Always had an ulterior motive. I wasnt being a jerk... I was being Randal the accomplished theif and explorer. And yes... the other players knew what I was doing. And no... they didnt yell at me about it. They did however take notice when larger items or personal effects turned up missing... and more money kept going into my pockets. The cleric of the group slowly ground me down with diplomacy checks, supported by some other social skills and alot of RP'd conversion stuff. After that my guy not only started playing fair... he gave back everything hed taken with intrest. After all these were now his friends... and he was a changed character for his ability to finally see that. A good story eh? Rather enjoyable.... Thank god my group is mature enough to not freak out about a few gold peices for a stories sake.
BobtheBiotitan 05-17-06, 07:15 AM	Hold up with the angry post there about me stealing everything from the party. You have no idea what the stituation was and no idea why I did it. I'm not a jerk at all. This "Stealing" from the party happened once. The question should be not "Why did it happen?", but "Where did the gold go to?" I can answer both for you. In my party I am one of the only good characters. In the past the other people have spent their gold on horrible and sickening things. I never even got my "fair share" of the treasure anyways. So I stole a measly 5 gold. Where did the gold go to? It went to an orphanage in the nearby town, instead of the underground. Is it so wrong in your eyes to take from evil and give to the needy? Is it? We do it all the time. Hey there are some goblins. Kill them and take their stuff! So don't start going off on people until you know the full story *******.
Gilean 05-17-06, 10:05 AM	Have you asked them to try separating in-cahracter and out-of-character knowledge (and explained the concepts if necessary)? I also suggest you talk about the stealing with them, to prevent further aggravation (leaving the matter there to rot will help nobody).