I would like some help/suggestions on creating a grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

I would like some help/suggestions on creating a grappler [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cidim
02-25-06, 11:20 AM Little background to start with:
Mostly FR campaign setting.
Pretty much a CG group.
I 'think' we will have a barbarian, a templar/samuria, and a rogue (maybe arcane trickster).
Approximately level 11 to 13 currently.
Campaign back story, I will probably have to be either a human or troglodyte (we rescued a bunch of trogs from slavery). I might be able to come up with a rational for some other race if it it's not to far out there. But can't be elf, 1/2elf, hobgoblin, or lizardfolk.

The other players don't have a huge amount of experience at the game, so I don't want to be the clever guy that makes all the decisions or the 'face' guy that does all the talking. They need the chance.

Seemed like I could still have a lot of fun with someone disarms, trips, and/or bullrushes then grapples his opponent. {If I read it correctly Imp Unarmed Strike should negate the AoO to halt the grapple attempt.} Might be effective against leaders, spellcasters, rogues, etc...

I was thinking something along the lines of a barb or ftr, survivor, gladiator. Maybe a whip to disarm trip at a distance, shield spiked bull rush, then breatplate with armor spikes for grapple.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanx & later lo.
IceFractal
02-25-06, 01:07 PM A Trog might actually make a good grappler, but those racial HD really hurt - see if you can replace those with class levels. Human is always a good bet though.

Anyway, there's two main ways to make a grappler: the Monk way and the hard way.

The Monk way is easy - just go straight Monk. You could start with a couple of Fighter levels if you want some more tactical options (a reach weapon is a good combination with a Monk, because you can still use your unarmed strikes to hit adjacent targets). Feats you may want to check out are Earth's Embrace (CW) and Scorpion Strike (Sandstorm). Also, Power Attack is very handy because you're making either just touch attacks or even no attack rolls, so you can PA for max.

The other way is a lot harder - without Monk levels, you'll need to use armor spikes to do any damage, and those don't scale. Also, a lot of stuff that the Monk gets for free you have to take. Reaping Mauler is a good class for this though, especially since you're starting at mid-level (RM is kind of useless when starting from low level, because most of the bonus feats it grants are things you already need to have to do any grappling). Again, I wouldn't say no to a reach weapon.

I wouldn't worry much about disarming - they already can't use non-light weapons when you're grappling them, but tripping could be worthwhile. Also, you'll need a non-grappling, non-tripping backup strategy, as a lot of foes you face at that level are just too big and strong to grab.
TheChilliGod
02-25-06, 01:57 PM I made a grappler once. I almost got to play him as well.
Dwarven Swashbuckler/Barbarian/Reaping Mauler. (The DM house-ruled out multiclass penalties, but if you take human...)
At lvl 8, while raging, his grapple bonus is +20. Now, you don't get that from most monks (maybe +15 for them). And, with Earth's Embrace (And a huge strength) you can still deal damage some.

The lovely thing with the Reaping Mauler, is that you can render the opponent unconscious with Sleeper Lock, then the rogue coup-de-graces while you move onto the next guy.
cidim
02-25-06, 06:58 PM Whatsists?!?

I don't know if it's because I only have 3.0 books not 3.5 or if I don't have some of the supplements. But I haven't heard of a lot of those:
Earth's Embrace... Scorpion Strike... Reaping Mauler... Dwarven Swashbuckler... :confused:

Anyhoo, I'm definately not going monk.

Absolutely on the armor spikes (can you get those on a breastplate, or is it only plate armors?). Damage won't be huge or fast, but it should be consistent and {hopefully} taking someone out of the fight.

Good point on not needing disarm. So I'll probably not take the int and expertise to go for improved trip either.

You're right about a backup weapon. I'll have to think on that. Possibly a guisarme for reach trips. Maybe just a morning star because it just looks so primitively brutal. ;)
feartheinvinceblehamster
02-25-06, 08:32 PM Does anyone remember that insane dwarf "Battlerager" from Legacy of the Drow who's armor was a bunch of jagged metal and basically grappled someone and they died?

Anyway, Human Monk should probably work. I'm assuming your character will start at 11, so this is your build: human Monk , BAB +8(I think).
FEATS: Human Bonus: Power Attack (generally useful)
Level 1: combat Expertise(to qualify for improved disarm)
Level 3: Improved Disarm(get rid of those nasty light weapons before grappling, allowing you to beat them up with little threat of damage.
Level 6: Weapon Focus(unarmed strike)
Level 9: Run(get to them quickly)

Yeah, your grapple bonus is only +14 assuming 14 str, but on 3.0 rules that's the best I can give you. :weep:

Wha? No monk? then have improved grapple, power attack, combat expertise, weapon focus(armor spikes) a spiked shield, improved shield bash(you know it's cool), Kukri(armor spikes deal ADDITIONAL damage, meaning that by my interpretation, you can hit people with both a weapon and an armor spike in the same round)
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-25-06, 09:09 PM Earth's Embrace: feat from Complete Warrior
Swashbuckler: base class from Complete Warrior
Reaping Mauler: prestige class from Complete Warrior

And armor spikes work on any armor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=593560).
AngelDust Anderson
02-25-06, 10:51 PM feartheinvinceblehamster the Dwarven Battlerager you mentioned is Thisledworf Pwemf (spelling is awful) and utterly insane. For a grappler, go with the half-vampire template (not a big fan of, but is works) from Libris Mortis its only LA +1 and you gain Con Drain on a succesful pin.

-Anderson
stabs
02-26-06, 09:30 AM (Wall of text resulting in SRD friendly grappler)

If you don't want the monk, and don't have the splat books to put together a Goliath Reaping Mauler with Scorpion Strike, Clever Wrestling etc, then I recommend:

A Psychic Warrior!

here is the psionics section of the SRD:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionic.html

Check out the Psychic Warrior in the Classes bit, and the Half-Giant in the Races bit (well worth the LA+1!!!)

In fact, they're almost good enough without complicated feat selection. Psychic Warriors can buff themselves like crazy to become good grapplers. Here is a good list of powers by level: (note that all can be Augmented at later levels)
1: Expansion: A +4 Size Bonus to Grapple, and +2 to Strength
Grip of Iron: +4 to Grapple Checks
Claws of the Beast: Get 2 Claw Attacks.

2: Animal Affinity: +4 to Strength
Painful Strike: +1d6 to natural damage. Not very good until you can manifest it as a swift power at 6th level.

3: Claws of the Vampire. Half your claw damage dealt to an opponent heals you.

From 5th level, it might be a good idea to go into the Warmind Prestige Class (also Expanded Psionics or SRD). The downside of Warmind is that your Manifester progression resets ( :weep: ). So perhaps look into (Illithid) Slayer in the same book/SRD?

Anyway, here's a proposed lvl 10 build just using Core and XPH (can do even scarier things with Complete Warrior):

Half Giant Psychic Warrior 7/War Mind 2.

With 15 base strength, by that time you have +19 to Grapple unbuffed. (19 STR, +4 Powerful Build, +4 Imp. Grapple, +7 BAB
Then... Iron Grip +4 (or more), Swift Expansion (+5, (+10 for two size categories)), Animal Affinity +2 (or +4 if you go for 8 strength).

Now that's two rounds to set up (with Expansion as a swift action, so three if you want the full +10 from that power)). But the powers last a while, so you can do it anticipating combat. So that's a +30 to grapple, or +35 if you go up two size categories.

What does that get you? Inescapable grapples. Your combat style should consist of rushing opponents and grabbing the wizard (or even better, the killer power attacker with a two handed weapon). You won't do that much damage, but you'll really disable things.

Now, with Complete Warrior, you now take Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. When people attack you while you're grappling, you make your AoO and grapple two people at once. Add Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm at later levels? It's all over for them!

Now you make up their personality ;)
KAVU2002
02-26-06, 12:43 PM My advice would be don't worry about dealing damage while grappling. Usually you grapple fragile opponents like evil wizards, mind flayers, etc. Your reason for grappling them is to stop them from doing nasty stuff...pinned opponents can't cast spells with somatic components. After you pin them, your friends can usually tie them up with ease. Oh, and remember that pinned opponents LOOSE their dex bonus. So if one of your allies is a rogue, he can just sneak attack your foe to death. You do need unarmed strike but only because it is a prerequisite to improved grapple.

There are very few things that effect a grapple check:
wf: grapple
strength
special size modifier

It is quite helpful to play a race that is treated as large while grappling. Goliaths from Races of Stone have that trait. Half-Ogres from Savage Species were excellent in 3.0 (but I have not seen a 3.5 half-ogre). Both Goliaths and half-ogres just have a level adjustment of one, and no racial HD.

I love clerics, and a high level goliath cleric would be an AWESOME mage fighter. He would have good modifiers without magic. So he could cast antimagic field on himself, then grapple an enemy mage.
cidim
02-26-06, 11:46 PM We did just get the Psionics handbook, but we are not yet familiar enough with the rules to add it to our campaign just yet.

Prob can't talk my DM into the half-ogre or half-giant. We've had a string of ugly, usually evil, and anti-social races lately. So I'm probably going to be a human or dwarf.

Just did a deep gnome cleric ooze master, so I don't think a cleric either. Though I agree it would work well.

Looks like I'm going human barbarian / gladiator / survivor or dwarf fighter / gladiator / rogue.
Feats: improved unarmed strike, power attack, improved bull rush, warrior born, dodge, mobility, luck of heros, strong soul, iron will, possibly focus (and spec) in small weapon to use while grappling, etc... Not necessarily in that order.

Thanx, Later Lo!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cidim 02-25-06, 11:20 AM	Little background to start with: Mostly FR campaign setting. Pretty much a CG group. I 'think' we will have a barbarian, a templar/samuria, and a rogue (maybe arcane trickster). Approximately level 11 to 13 currently. Campaign back story, I will probably have to be either a human or troglodyte (we rescued a bunch of trogs from slavery). I might be able to come up with a rational for some other race if it it's not to far out there. But can't be elf, 1/2elf, hobgoblin, or lizardfolk. The other players don't have a huge amount of experience at the game, so I don't want to be the clever guy that makes all the decisions or the 'face' guy that does all the talking. They need the chance. Seemed like I could still have a lot of fun with someone disarms, trips, and/or bullrushes then grapples his opponent. {If I read it correctly Imp Unarmed Strike should negate the AoO to halt the grapple attempt.} Might be effective against leaders, spellcasters, rogues, etc... I was thinking something along the lines of a barb or ftr, survivor, gladiator. Maybe a whip to disarm trip at a distance, shield spiked bull rush, then breatplate with armor spikes for grapple. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanx & later lo.
IceFractal 02-25-06, 01:07 PM	A Trog might actually make a good grappler, but those racial HD really hurt - see if you can replace those with class levels. Human is always a good bet though. Anyway, there's two main ways to make a grappler: the Monk way and the hard way. The Monk way is easy - just go straight Monk. You could start with a couple of Fighter levels if you want some more tactical options (a reach weapon is a good combination with a Monk, because you can still use your unarmed strikes to hit adjacent targets). Feats you may want to check out are Earth's Embrace (CW) and Scorpion Strike (Sandstorm). Also, Power Attack is very handy because you're making either just touch attacks or even no attack rolls, so you can PA for max. The other way is a lot harder - without Monk levels, you'll need to use armor spikes to do any damage, and those don't scale. Also, a lot of stuff that the Monk gets for free you have to take. Reaping Mauler is a good class for this though, especially since you're starting at mid-level (RM is kind of useless when starting from low level, because most of the bonus feats it grants are things you already need to have to do any grappling). Again, I wouldn't say no to a reach weapon. I wouldn't worry much about disarming - they already can't use non-light weapons when you're grappling them, but tripping could be worthwhile. Also, you'll need a non-grappling, non-tripping backup strategy, as a lot of foes you face at that level are just too big and strong to grab.
TheChilliGod 02-25-06, 01:57 PM	I made a grappler once. I almost got to play him as well. Dwarven Swashbuckler/Barbarian/Reaping Mauler. (The DM house-ruled out multiclass penalties, but if you take human...) At lvl 8, while raging, his grapple bonus is +20. Now, you don't get that from most monks (maybe +15 for them). And, with Earth's Embrace (And a huge strength) you can still deal damage some. The lovely thing with the Reaping Mauler, is that you can render the opponent unconscious with Sleeper Lock, then the rogue coup-de-graces while you move onto the next guy.
cidim 02-25-06, 06:58 PM	Whatsists?!? I don't know if it's because I only have 3.0 books not 3.5 or if I don't have some of the supplements. But I haven't heard of a lot of those: Earth's Embrace... Scorpion Strike... Reaping Mauler... Dwarven Swashbuckler... :confused: Anyhoo, I'm definately not going monk. Absolutely on the armor spikes (can you get those on a breastplate, or is it only plate armors?). Damage won't be huge or fast, but it should be consistent and {hopefully} taking someone out of the fight. Good point on not needing disarm. So I'll probably not take the int and expertise to go for improved trip either. You're right about a backup weapon. I'll have to think on that. Possibly a guisarme for reach trips. Maybe just a morning star because it just looks so primitively brutal. ;)
feartheinvinceblehamster 02-25-06, 08:32 PM	Does anyone remember that insane dwarf "Battlerager" from Legacy of the Drow who's armor was a bunch of jagged metal and basically grappled someone and they died? Anyway, Human Monk should probably work. I'm assuming your character will start at 11, so this is your build: human Monk , BAB +8(I think). FEATS: Human Bonus: Power Attack (generally useful) Level 1: combat Expertise(to qualify for improved disarm) Level 3: Improved Disarm(get rid of those nasty light weapons before grappling, allowing you to beat them up with little threat of damage. Level 6: Weapon Focus(unarmed strike) Level 9: Run(get to them quickly) Yeah, your grapple bonus is only +14 assuming 14 str, but on 3.0 rules that's the best I can give you. :weep: Wha? No monk? then have improved grapple, power attack, combat expertise, weapon focus(armor spikes) a spiked shield, improved shield bash(you know it's cool), Kukri(armor spikes deal ADDITIONAL damage, meaning that by my interpretation, you can hit people with both a weapon and an armor spike in the same round)
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-25-06, 09:09 PM	Earth's Embrace: feat from Complete Warrior Swashbuckler: base class from Complete Warrior Reaping Mauler: prestige class from Complete Warrior And armor spikes work on any armor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=593560).
AngelDust Anderson 02-25-06, 10:51 PM	feartheinvinceblehamster the Dwarven Battlerager you mentioned is Thisledworf Pwemf (spelling is awful) and utterly insane. For a grappler, go with the half-vampire template (not a big fan of, but is works) from Libris Mortis its only LA +1 and you gain Con Drain on a succesful pin. -Anderson
stabs 02-26-06, 09:30 AM	(Wall of text resulting in SRD friendly grappler) If you don't want the monk, and don't have the splat books to put together a Goliath Reaping Mauler with Scorpion Strike, Clever Wrestling etc, then I recommend: A Psychic Warrior! here is the psionics section of the SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionic.html Check out the Psychic Warrior in the Classes bit, and the Half-Giant in the Races bit (well worth the LA+1!!!) In fact, they're almost good enough without complicated feat selection. Psychic Warriors can buff themselves like crazy to become good grapplers. Here is a good list of powers by level: (note that all can be Augmented at later levels) 1: Expansion: A +4 Size Bonus to Grapple, and +2 to Strength Grip of Iron: +4 to Grapple Checks Claws of the Beast: Get 2 Claw Attacks. 2: Animal Affinity: +4 to Strength Painful Strike: +1d6 to natural damage. Not very good until you can manifest it as a swift power at 6th level. 3: Claws of the Vampire. Half your claw damage dealt to an opponent heals you. From 5th level, it might be a good idea to go into the Warmind Prestige Class (also Expanded Psionics or SRD). The downside of Warmind is that your Manifester progression resets ( :weep: ). So perhaps look into (Illithid) Slayer in the same book/SRD? Anyway, here's a proposed lvl 10 build just using Core and XPH (can do even scarier things with Complete Warrior): Half Giant Psychic Warrior 7/War Mind 2. With 15 base strength, by that time you have +19 to Grapple unbuffed. (19 STR, +4 Powerful Build, +4 Imp. Grapple, +7 BAB Then... Iron Grip +4 (or more), Swift Expansion (+5, (+10 for two size categories)), Animal Affinity +2 (or +4 if you go for 8 strength). Now that's two rounds to set up (with Expansion as a swift action, so three if you want the full +10 from that power)). But the powers last a while, so you can do it anticipating combat. So that's a +30 to grapple, or +35 if you go up two size categories. What does that get you? Inescapable grapples. Your combat style should consist of rushing opponents and grabbing the wizard (or even better, the killer power attacker with a two handed weapon). You won't do that much damage, but you'll really disable things. Now, with Complete Warrior, you now take Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. When people attack you while you're grappling, you make your AoO and grapple two people at once. Add Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm at later levels? It's all over for them! Now you make up their personality ;)
KAVU2002 02-26-06, 12:43 PM	My advice would be don't worry about dealing damage while grappling. Usually you grapple fragile opponents like evil wizards, mind flayers, etc. Your reason for grappling them is to stop them from doing nasty stuff...pinned opponents can't cast spells with somatic components. After you pin them, your friends can usually tie them up with ease. Oh, and remember that pinned opponents LOOSE their dex bonus. So if one of your allies is a rogue, he can just sneak attack your foe to death. You do need unarmed strike but only because it is a prerequisite to improved grapple. There are very few things that effect a grapple check: wf: grapple strength special size modifier It is quite helpful to play a race that is treated as large while grappling. Goliaths from Races of Stone have that trait. Half-Ogres from Savage Species were excellent in 3.0 (but I have not seen a 3.5 half-ogre). Both Goliaths and half-ogres just have a level adjustment of one, and no racial HD. I love clerics, and a high level goliath cleric would be an AWESOME mage fighter. He would have good modifiers without magic. So he could cast antimagic field on himself, then grapple an enemy mage.
cidim 02-26-06, 11:46 PM	We did just get the Psionics handbook, but we are not yet familiar enough with the rules to add it to our campaign just yet. Prob can't talk my DM into the half-ogre or half-giant. We've had a string of ugly, usually evil, and anti-social races lately. So I'm probably going to be a human or dwarf. Just did a deep gnome cleric ooze master, so I don't think a cleric either. Though I agree it would work well. Looks like I'm going human barbarian / gladiator / survivor or dwarf fighter / gladiator / rogue. Feats: improved unarmed strike, power attack, improved bull rush, warrior born, dodge, mobility, luck of heros, strong soul, iron will, possibly focus (and spec) in small weapon to use while grappling, etc... Not necessarily in that order. Thanx, Later Lo!