Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karish 03-24-07, 01:10 PM	Okay, so I'm in a campaign, where my character is a Warlock who happens to be CG and is currently trying to redeem himself, because he killed a lot of people involuntarily because of the powers that were basically forced into him. Whole reason he adventures is to repent for his sins by helping others, and to find the demon that made him this way so he can destroy her and move on with his life. Another character, a bard who's a dancer type girl, is a friend of mine OC. She and I are pretty much developing IC into having the whole two lovers thing. Mostly because we're both a fan of roleplay, she's got a thing for the character's past and persona, and I personally like a little romance in storylines so it seemed rational. The characters started to show liking for one another, and it has started to develop. The problem starts here. They finally consumated the fact they wanted to be together by, as we worded it, "Sharing a Tent" one night, instead of us doing what we normally did, me being outside with my magic item that makes it unnecessary for me to sleep and keeping guard. I got another PC to pull guard duty. The DM got ****** at about this point, and decided that it was "completely pointless" and "bad roleplay". I feel like that was kind of crappy, and I asked him what was the big deal. He says that the PCs shouldn't be doing that, and my character shouldn't be in any relationships anyway, because of how he views my character. He then threatens to wrath me and her for that, so we told him go ahead. My character now has a permanent, incurable disease that sends him into fits of coughing up blood, and she's incapable of bearing children; this feels like a real insult because the player is infertile, and it hurt her emotionally. So now I'm considering ditching him as a DM at least for a while. Anyone feel like explaining why this guy flipped out over that? I just don't see any real reason he should interfere, or even care too much for that matter. Frankly, that annoys me.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-24-07, 01:14 PM	From the way you describe it... Maybe he just doesn't like in-character sex. I can't think of any other reason he'd be so touchy about this.
Karish 03-24-07, 01:20 PM	From the way you describe it... Maybe he just doesn't like in-character sex. I can't think of any other reason he'd be so touchy about this. I don't see why he'd flip though, we didn't describe it or go screw while the other players waited or anything. And besides, he's accepted other players getting prostitutes.
KillerGM 03-24-07, 01:25 PM	From the way you describe it... Maybe he just doesn't like in-character sex. I can't think of any other reason he'd be so touchy about this. Jealousy could be another factor. Not that I know anything about the guy, but people get weird with IC relationships, especially when the players are of the appropriate genders (male/female players) and/or sexual preferences. It could be that he really doesn't like IC relationships, though it's a pretty stupid way for him to show it. If you two were developing a relationship and he didn't like it, he should have told you before it was consummated. If you guys just kind of "sprung" it on him, that may have been why he reacted so... extremely. He just wasn't ready for it and wasn't comfortable with it. I'd talk to him, separately, to get to the bottom. Don't push the jealousy issue or anything like that, but ask him why he came down so hard on your characters for that. Especially if he's ok with PCs having meaningless sex with prostitutes. Hope it helps! :D
Dradjeel 03-24-07, 01:27 PM	My character now has a permanent, incurable disease that sends him into fits of coughing up blood, and she's incapable of bearing children; this feels like a real insult because the player is infertile, and it hurt her emotionally. So now I'm considering ditching him as a DM at least for a while. I think his "punishment" for her character is way beyond the limits for socially acceptable behavior, and I would not under any circumstances play another game with someone who has such a frame of mind.
Karish 03-24-07, 01:28 PM	Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure he saw it coming, I mean, all the PCs did, and we acted like a pair who were the adventurer equivalent of a boyfriend and girlfriend pretty much as often as it was deemed reasonable.
mightymouse1107 03-24-07, 01:42 PM	This is ridiculous and arbitrary of him. No DM worth his salt who cares about good role play would do this to you, especially given how tastefully you handled it. Also, as a side note, I DM far more than I play and I can tell you that no DM of any competence needs to use in game "punishments" to keep things interesting and playable. This is the single worst habit DM's have, and I've seen it destroy a campaign before. (It was actually how I got my start DMing. An old party I was in booted the previous DM for that very reason.) All consequences of players actions need to flow naturally from the campaign world, not from the DM's hissy fit. Find a new DM, hold a coup, or nicely suggest letting someone else have a try, depending on how angry you are.
Azar 03-24-07, 01:51 PM	Pardon me if I'm a bit forward (for I know nothing of your gaming situation) but perhaps this is the result of RL jealousy? Perhaps he feels something for said player and your love side-story has been slowly grating away his patience and decency? If this were true it could explain the irrational outburst - perhaps he was able to hold it in while you two were dancing around the pot, but once you two consumated the relationship he couldn't take it any more... I know, I know, the theory portrays the DM as a social troglodyte with little insight into the inner workings of a relationship, but his outburst seemed rather heavy-handed (This is assuming he knew about said player's infertility). Whatever happens, I wish you luck.
Cthulhu3125 03-24-07, 02:55 PM	Perhaps he sees that this adds nothing to the campaign or storyline - how is something like this going to have any effect on anything else, aside from what the two involved characters describe? It doesn't further the goals of the group, it excludes the other players while you are pursuing this side-storyline, and has no mechanical effect on the game numbers whatsoever. Perhaps the DM thinks it is just pointless?
Comus 03-24-07, 03:10 PM	Perhaps he sees that this adds nothing to the campaign or storyline - how is something like this going to have any effect on anything else, aside from what the two involved characters describe? It doesn't further the goals of the group, it excludes the other players while you are pursuing this side-storyline, and has no mechanical effect on the game numbers whatsoever. Perhaps the DM thinks it is just pointless? God forbid players should actually take interest in their characters and proactively roleplay once in a while. Let's take this one step further, and give their characters AIDS every time players do something that doesn't advance the plot directly.
ShadowDragon8685 03-24-07, 03:12 PM	Normally I don't advocate outright physical violence... But this goes beyond the game into in-person asshattery. Tell him that he has no right to "Wrath" anyone, because his name's not ******** God Almighty, and if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. And if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. Starting with you throwing a punch. Seriously, this guy needs to get his ass whooped, major. Roxxed hard. Two hit fight, if you can swing it. First hit is your fist and his head, second hit is his ass and the floor. Then just walk out.
Kradlo 03-24-07, 03:18 PM	Heck, in-character romance is as old as the game. One of the advantages to this is that it gives the GM the means to make the game interesting, by putting one character in danger so the other must come to the rescue. It sounds like you had been quite discrete in describing your characters' relationship, avoiding graphic details. Yet your GM became outraged over this? I think he's got emotional issues, likely stemming from feelings of jealousy. Either he's jealous that people in his game are engaging in romance when he's not, or he's specifically jealous over the female player. I'd suggest that you privately talk to him about it, and find out what his problem is. If he's bent out of shape because of this, he needs to get over it. If he can't, then it's time to find another GM, or start running your own game.
danielinthewolvesden 03-24-07, 03:46 PM	I think his "punishment" for her character is way beyond the limits for socially acceptable behavior, and I would not under any circumstances play another game with someone who has such a frame of mind. Right. Do sit down with him and give him one last chance. Discuss it like adults, aks him what his problem was and explain you thought his reaction was unfair. Ask him to undo it and apologize. If he does not, start a new game without him, and ask the other players too. If he was this big a jerk here, he has likely ticked off others too. Umm, how old is this DM?
Dragonteuthis 03-24-07, 04:03 PM	The only time I draw the line at in-game romance is when a player expects me to roleplay a female NPC's romantic affairs with his male PC (or if the genders are switched. Sorry, Just don't feel all that comfortable doing that. Plus That lets the player hog the spotlight. Frankly your GM is childish or worse. I would definitely drop the group, and either start up your own or find another one. Someone who does something that bizarre is NOT someone you want to be socializing at all.
Asharlin 03-24-07, 04:19 PM	Drop the DM. Unless there is some mitigating factor you hadn't mentioned (e.g. The DM just got out of a several year romantic relationship and is just in a ****** mood which he took out on you.) there is no reasnoble excuse for that behavior. Even with an excuse, it is going to far...but it is understandable enough to try to talk to the DM about it and get the DM to change his mind and keep his RL problems out of the game.
Tarlyn Alurach 03-24-07, 04:24 PM	I saw nothing wrong with how you guys roleplayed yoru characters. I had a dm whose wife played and her and another guy developed an IC relationship. In the real world, all of us were friends and we had cook-outs when we weren't playing. What was even funnier was that it was gender reversal. But at the same time, right before I joined that group, I was in a group where the DM was hitting on my wife. Both in game and out. I confronted him about it and we ended up having some issues. My wife quit playing because of his actions. Then he started taking it out on me. Then one Sunday I didn't show up because I was ill and thinking of dropping out of the group when I got an email from another player asking me not to show up anymore. I think your DM has real issues and needs to take a break. I'd suggest that he leave. Or take a break.
bobothechimp 03-24-07, 04:38 PM	Your DM is both a horrible DM and a horrible person.
kelvinaw273 03-24-07, 05:00 PM	While I am normally the first to defend DMs, this is really childish of him ... to be honest, I think he has the hots for your girl and is jealous. I would both of you tell him that you feel that his treatment of your characer's relationship is arbitrary, and if he doesn't lift it you're going to walk - you, and not he are the final judge on what your character does and does not do. See what the other players think, and then carry it through. Sounds like a bad case of gripes on his part.
celtredleg 03-24-07, 05:02 PM	Sounds a lot like an in game reaction to out of game ideas in the dark reccess of his cranium. Talking might be good, but bring a friend, both as back up and witness. Sounds dramatic, but ask a cop about how weird some people can get , especialy if the object( person to everybody else) has never shown any real interest. I have seen it in more than one group, and it can be very ugly.
bobothechimp 03-24-07, 05:10 PM	The whole thing is bad DMing, punishing players for roleplaying well, but the point of making a character played by someone infertile unable to bear children is an absolutely deplorable, inhuman act.
robertliguori 03-24-07, 05:23 PM	Normally I don't advocate outright physical violence... But this goes beyond the game into in-person asshattery. Tell him that he has no right to "Wrath" anyone, because his name's not ******** God Almighty, and if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. And if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. Starting with you throwing a punch. Seriously, this guy needs to get his ass whooped, major. Roxxed hard. Two hit fight, if you can swing it. First hit is your fist and his head, second hit is his ass and the floor. Then just walk out. Ordinarily, I do not countenance violence against people except in cases of clear self-defense. However, your DM is rapidly writing himself out of the category 'people'. I'd give him one (1) chance to explain himself. Unless he has one unholy hell of a justification for his actions, walk. DMs who pull crap like this are bad DMs, and as you have discovered, bad gaming is indeed worse than no gaming.
bobothechimp 03-24-07, 06:23 PM	What your DM has done is a direct insult against the other player. That's like having a player who is black and the DM forces him to be a slave, or a character who is female can't be an adventurer and must be a commoner.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-24-07, 06:36 PM	Normally I don't advocate outright physical violence... But this goes beyond the game into in-person asshattery. Tell him that he has no right to "Wrath" anyone, because his name's not ******** God Almighty, and if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. And if he dosen't appologize to her, it's over. Starting with you throwing a punch. Seriously, this guy needs to get his ass whooped, major. Roxxed hard. Two hit fight, if you can swing it. First hit is your fist and his head, second hit is his ass and the floor. Then just walk out. It is a rare occasion that i agree witht the majority of the boards. And rarer still that i agree with shawdodragon. However in this case I both agree witht he general sentament that your DM is grade a asshat. And can find no fualt with shawdodragon's solution. Seriousely flipping out becuase your two fictional characters got it on? WTF? he wasn't dating/married to her or anything like, was he? Is there a reason for him to lash out like that, at all? it really seems uncalled for at best. Also strickening her with inferility, when she can't have kids is just plan bad from. At worst I would have had her get pregant, but only if she consented. No shawdodragon's right: shoot him. In the face. With a hammer. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif
Azar 03-24-07, 07:12 PM	Honestly, I'd say making her character pregnant as a "better punishment" seems a real harsh slap in the face - probably harder then being stricken infertile. Before you let slip the dogs of war (Or rather, let slip the trigger on your hammer-gun) I'd really suggest talking this out. It's really harsh what he did but if there is a deeper (Or darker) reason behind his actions, hostility will only make it much worse. If this D&D group is also a social group outside of the game (IE these are the ladies and gentlemen you hang out with) then there is a good chance that there lies a deeper meaning behind these happenings. I'd chalk the whole thing up to distaste for love (As Asharlin suggested), jealousy, or immaturity.
Karish 03-24-07, 08:44 PM	To be honest, knowing him, its jealousy. Not exactly great looking (Fark, I'm not too handsome meself, but I only like her as a friend), and a bigger pervert than some lonely guys that read the BoEF to themselves. I thought over violence and talking, but I was chatting with the girl friend a little while back; we don't really associate with him much out of D&D, so we're gonna just leave and start our own group. She's always wanted to try DMing after all. I know a couple friends, most not in that campaign, we'll get together some time. If I hear him comment on her again though, I'm laying the most unholy smackdown upon him. He makes fun of me OC a lot, but you don't go after my friends, y'know? Esopecially about that.
Dragonteuthis 03-24-07, 08:56 PM	...we're gonna just leave and start our own group. She's always wanted to try DMing after all. I know a couple friends, most not in that campaign, we'll get together some time. Best of luck, and I hope your group can forge a fun campaign.
TheDarkLord 03-24-07, 09:10 PM	Wow. Poor dude, getting jealous over an IC relationship. He definatly needs a wife. My wife doesn't allow me to have issues :weep:.
ShadowDragon8685 03-24-07, 09:13 PM	To be honest, knowing him, its jealousy. Not exactly great looking (Fark, I'm not too handsome meself, but I only like her as a friend), and a bigger pervert than some lonely guys that read the BoEF to themselves. I thought over violence and talking, but I was chatting with the girl friend a little while back; we don't really associate with him much out of D&D, so we're gonna just leave and start our own group. She's always wanted to try DMing after all. I know a couple friends, most not in that campaign, we'll get together some time. If I hear him comment on her again though, I'm laying the most unholy smackdown upon him. He makes fun of me OC a lot, but you don't go after my friends, y'know? Esopecially about that. Good for you! You're a better person than I am. I'd have clocked the sonofagun.
Chrono Nexus 03-24-07, 09:25 PM	PC relationships... personally, I don't/can't do any kind of description of the act. My philosophy that a DM's world springs from the mind makes any real attempt by another player to get it on with an npc... kind of a mind ****. I allow it, but no details.
MasonMurdoc 03-24-07, 09:32 PM	Maybe he has a thing(or more) for you or the girl, though if he liked her i would have hought he'd be more considerate about her being infertile. Also, did he explain how these two things happen? Or did you randomly get diseased?
Cthulhu3125 03-24-07, 09:35 PM	There are often threads where PCs complain about the situations that the DM puts them in (uncomfortable to roleplay, etc). Perhaps the DM in this campaign is just uncomfortable with such things, and would rather they were not a part of his game. I wouldn't see that as a problem. When I am DM'ing, if any of the (male) characters ask "Are there any attractive barmaids in the tavern?", (and it comes up quite often), I always respond that they are warforged/modron/have some wasting disease, etc, because I don't particularly want to waste good campaign time having some other player act out completely unneccessary things.
Tarlyn Alurach 03-25-07, 01:51 AM	I don't think they were going out of their way to make the DM uncomfortable. They just said they were sharing a tent. They didn't make it impossible to work with. Heck, the DM could have lots of fun with that. I know our DM did. It actually inspired some of the best sessions I've ever been in.
danielinthewolvesden 03-25-07, 02:24 AM	There are often threads where PCs complain about the situations that the DM puts them in (uncomfortable to roleplay, etc). Perhaps the DM in this campaign is just uncomfortable with such things, and would rather they were not a part of his game. I wouldn't see that as a problem. When I am DM'ing, if any of the (male) characters ask "Are there any attractive barmaids in the tavern?", (and it comes up quite often), I always respond that they are warforged/modron/have some wasting disease, etc, because I don't particularly want to waste good campaign time having some other player act out completely unneccessary things. I would ALMOST buy this except this line about "DM Wrath" "He then threatens to wrath me and her for that, so we told him go ahead. My character now has a permanent, incurable disease that sends him into fits of coughing up blood, and she's incapable of bearing children; this feels like a real insult because the player is infertile, and it hurt her emotionally."
Tarlyn Alurach 03-25-07, 02:58 AM	I couldn't buy that argument at all. The way they went about their characters romance didn't detract from the game play at all. The DM had no right to do what he did.
robertliguori 03-25-07, 07:16 AM	There are often threads where PCs complain about the situations that the DM puts them in (uncomfortable to roleplay, etc). Perhaps the DM in this campaign is just uncomfortable with such things, and would rather they were not a part of his game. I wouldn't see that as a problem. When I am DM'ing, if any of the (male) characters ask "Are there any attractive barmaids in the tavern?", (and it comes up quite often), I always respond that they are warforged/modron/have some wasting disease, etc, because I don't particularly want to waste good campaign time having some other player act out completely unneccessary things. A: "After some conversation and stories of your past deeds, you arrange to spend the evening with one of the comleier barmaids. Deduct 2 gp from your daily-expenses fund for the use of private room and bed." That's under 10 seconds of good campaign time spent. B: Random sex attempts with every non-statted female character in the campaign world rapidly grows tiresome. However, interaction and character development between the actual players is, given the number of players, the real point of D&D as a group activity. In a very real sense, character back-and-forth leading to dramatic development is the point of D&D, and all of the dungeon-crawling and monster-slaying is a road to it. C: This could be a problem if either the DM or one of the players had a problem with sex. If so, the proper way to handle this would be to pull them aside and explain his position. Complaining about being out-of-character and then causing arbitrary negative consequences are the extra-wrong ways to handle it. Karish: Good on ye! Glad to hear the drama-source has been excised.
Tarlyn Alurach 03-25-07, 11:13 AM	Back in the 2E days I ran a campaign where a paladin fell in love with a barmaid. Suddenly, he was married and expecting a child. It created great roleplaying. We never did anything to make it uncomfortable for anyone. Me: "You see Xenia on the battlements as you ride back into the city. She rushes down the stairs to greet you as your charger emerges out of the shadow of the wall." Player: "Excuse me, my friends, I have something that needs to be taken care of." Other Players: (Insert friendly banter.) It never got out of hand. It never bothered anyone. It created drama for the paladin because now he had duties to both his deity and his country and to his new wife and child. And sometimes those duties were in conflict.
Toran_A_Sunder 03-25-07, 11:34 AM	As I DM, I get irritated when male players sit there and "get a prostitute" and then describe all the nasty bits about it. I think you and your friend handled the situation tastefully, and were it me I would have had no problem. This DM, however, is a jack-hole. To punish you guys because you tastefully RPed something? Obviously it's a touch of jealousy. I would bet money this guy has a crush on your friend and is POed because he would have rather been the one in the tent. That he punished either of you at all is absolutely ridiculous. That he made her character infertile when she herself cannot have children is...I mean wow. That either of you didn't immediately beat the crap outta him shows how much restraint you must have. Were it me, I would simply write him a letter telling him how insensitive and crass he is, that he has absolutely no moral fiber, and that it will be a cold day in hell before you ever play in his games again.
RetiredThief 03-25-07, 03:02 PM	.. so we're gonna just leave and start our own group. She's always wanted to try DMing after all. I know a couple friends, most not in that campaign, we'll get together some time. Bravo. Sounds like a happy solution. His action was deplorable, as DM. His penalty against her character, if he knew of her real life condition, was inexcusable, as Human being. I can think of 2 reasons that might account for his actions. The first others mentioned, saying that he might be jealous due to real life interest in her. The second is that he might be a misogynist jerk, and doesn't think that anyone should have respectful relations with a woman, either in game or out. Neither reason is an excuse, and it's possible BOTH apply. So again, bravo on your solution.
lastknightleft 03-25-07, 05:01 PM	Okay, I just have one question... Did he actually know she was infertile? and if he had been told before, could he have forgotten if a long time had passed between the in game actions and being told? I'm not justifying his reaction, it was lame and yes acting like an asshat. I'm just saying, that before I go declaring you should beat him up that I want to know if he was just being a double asshat accidentally. If he didn't know/forgot, I would give him the chance to apologize, also after his initial outbeurst he could probably be talked into taking it back and allowing your characters their in game romance without the disabilities. If he knew or won't see reason, then yes leave the group for him being insensitive and in fact try to get as many other players as possible to come with you.
Voran 03-25-07, 08:15 PM	Also, just to be fair, we do need to realize we're just getting one point of view here. Its entirely possible the setup described is completely accurate, and a possibility it is not. What used to bug me was when the DM and his girlfriend also had an IC relationship with their chars, which ate up valuable time as they spent making googley-eyes at each other. Also, if the DM didn't know the girl was IRL infertile, its not a direct personal insult, if he did, then, yeah, it is :P Anyways, you've already exercised your right, and split from the group. There's not much else we really should say, or can say to help the situation, as its essentially been resolved.
AffableDoomwalker 03-25-07, 09:26 PM	Personally, I find there's a very thin line between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" behavior. Very thin. And you have to walk it when you get into IC relationships. I think OP and his fellow player did a great job of staying right on the line. But regardless, that makes you both two in two million. I've been involved in games that end up as bad or worse than the second episode of The Dead Alewives' Summoner Geeks... so while I can understand if the DM was uncomfortable with the situation, I can't condone his methods of dealing with it. Either way - good on you Karish, glad you got the issue resolved.
FeceMan 03-26-07, 02:05 AM	The OP's character is totally ****-blocking the DM. -200xp, n00bs
Aeromus 03-26-07, 04:52 AM	Good for you! You're a better person than I am. I'd have clocked the sonofagun. Yeah I would have at least exploded, and ended that game for everyone.
keith187 03-26-07, 06:37 AM	When a DM pulls crap like this with my characters and refuses to listen to reason then I just continue to RP as if it didn't happen. Sometimes a DM will get the hint and realize that his 'punishments' don't mean anything if the PC's don't accepts them, but other times they freak out. I use that as a last resort thing if they accept it then I give the DM another chance, and if they spaz then I walk.
aotrscommander 03-26-07, 07:41 AM	Yeah I would have at least exploded, and ended that game for everyone. I'd have made him explode. No, not metaphorically.