Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RainerNader 07-02-07, 10:29 PM	Despite my comical attempt at a thread title, I'm actually in a situation that's causing me quite a bit of frustration. Basically my current D&D party looks something like this: Human Rogue - Focused mostly on archery, except he took Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Except his CON is only 10, meaning any time he's going to feint, that means he's in melee and by himself (otherwise he could just flank). So basically half his feats have been spent on maneuvers that put him in mortal danger whenever he tries to use them. Also, as rogues tend to go, his Fort and Will saves are pretty bad. Human Swordsage - All the martial adept classes kick butt and this guy is no exception, except he seemingly refuses to learn any maneuvers that give him any ranged attack. Which means any flying enemy reduces him to doing 1d6+1 with a shortbow. Catfolk Warlock - Despite knowing ahead of time that our DM was throwing lots of outsiders at us, and outsiders usually = spell resistance, he refuses to take Spell Penetration or any other feats that would help him out. He pretty much has no good saves, since Wisdom is his dump stat. He actually took Force of Personality at 1st level, then changed it because "I don't want to wait until 6th level to get Precise Shot." Human Cleric - My character and yeah, he's got the usual cleric weaknesses, namely heavy armor makes him move as slow as molasses, and his Reflex save is lame. But I have spent a lot of time trying to minimize his weaknesses as much as possible. Basically, I feel like every battle we have, results in some percentage of the party being ineffective at best, and on the brink of death at worst. Even worse, since I'm playing a cleric, I basically have to run around casting healing spells, resurgence, restoration, etc. Now, this isn't the usual "my players are goofing off and don't play seriously and make dumb characters that suck" post. These characters are actually pretty damn optimized. The Rogue can do sick sneak attack damage and has tons of skills he uses in every combat. The Swordsage does absurd amounts of damage and has stuff that gives him teleportation and invisibility to boot. The Warlock gets a lot of mileage out of his invocations and spends a lot of his money on wands and other items to give him some versatility. And my DM doesn't intentionally target them with weak points all the time. It's just that these weak points are so fundamental (like, SAVING THROWS) that they can't help but come into play time after time again. And then I feel like I always end up being the guy who needs to 'clean up the mess,' so to speak. In one of our recent battles, I ended up basically going at it solo. The party ended up blinded/confused/unconscious/dominated/etc, and I just ended up casting a bunch of Summon Monster spells to deal with the mooks, then went after the BBEG with Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. It was temporarily relieving, but then everyone in the group was basically like, "wait, you didn't prepare Resurgence, Dispel Magic, and Restoration? Why not? You screwed us." Soooo... thoughts on what I can do in this situation?
Salla 07-02-07, 10:33 PM	Tell them to get some Cloaks of Resistance ASAFP, for starters.
Mock26 07-02-07, 10:44 PM	Just learn to deal with it. If the other players are having fun, then this isn't a big deal. There is nothing that says that you have to optimize any or all aspects of a character in order to have fun. And, while minimizing fundamental weak points may make the game more enjoyable to you it doesn't necessairly mean that it is any less enjoyable for those who do not minimize their own fundamental weak points.
RainerNader 07-02-07, 11:02 PM	Just learn to deal with it. If the other players are having fun, then this isn't a big deal. There is nothing that says that you have to optimize any or all aspects of a character in order to have fun. And, while minimizing fundamental weak points may make the game more enjoyable to you it doesn't necessairly mean that it is any less enjoyable for those who do not minimize their own fundamental weak points. If I was playing any other character where the 'burden of recovery' was nonexistent, this would be completely fine. I've played with these guys for awhile and this was never an issue for me in the past because nobody expected the fighter to do anything about an enemy's spell resistance.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 07-02-07, 11:37 PM	It was temporarily relieving, but then everyone in the group was basically like, "wait, you didn't prepare Resurgence, Dispel Magic, and Restoration? Why not? You screwed us." Soooo... thoughts on what I can do in this situation? Simple. Whenever they say something like that, mention the various times you saved their butts with a timely heal or whatever. Say that your not just another healbot. Say that sometimes you need to cut loose and smash things. And finnaly say that if they think they can do a better job, have them build a cleric and play brother's keeper for awhile :headexplo Sorry, ive been stuck as the healer before, and while its needed, ans some cases vital, its often not often appriciated and you end up getting blamed when something bad goes wrong. You could even go the extreme one day and prep all offencive spells and refuse to heal (Happy wounds day!) (though some groups this could get ugly) and then see how it plays without a healer.
Salla 07-02-07, 11:40 PM	Out of curiosity, what's your cleric's god/cause?
RainerNader 07-03-07, 12:24 AM	Out of curiosity, what's your cleric's god/cause? Kord... and his feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. His STR is higher than his WIS, so I really built him hoping to get more of a chance to smash heads, not play healbot. So in character, while he would never let an ally die if he could do anything about it, I think he'd be pretty disgruntled with his role in the party, too.
TheAngryFish 07-03-07, 12:31 AM	So... the party is like a battery of glass cannons. Well, I hope enemy mages don't get first hitsies. Cloak of resistance, iron will, and all of that sort of thing.
Salla 07-03-07, 12:41 AM	Kord... and his feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. His STR is higher than his WIS, so I really built him hoping to get more of a chance to smash heads, not play healbot. So in character, while he would never let an ally die if he could do anything about it, I think he'd be pretty disgruntled with his role in the party, too. Kord strikes me as the sort who would preach a philosophy of self-sufficiency. You should definitely encourage them to pull their own weight, as it were.
Thubby 07-03-07, 01:03 AM	"im a bandage, not a paramedic" "its your job to keep yourself alive, its my job to save you when you(r strength) fail(s)" <-sounds pretty cool in-character "and when is the last time you saved me?" "your alive arent you, ive done my job" you seem to have the problem that they now feel entitled to what is in all honesty a gift, a favor. remind them of that
DrRufio 07-03-07, 01:27 AM	Well, just to back up the swordsage, there really are no ranged maneuvers, so a refusal to take ranged maneuvers is really an inability to do such. They really are just completely lacking at range unless they take ranged feats and fight like everyone else at range. That aside, I understand your position, and that is one reason I hate playing clerics, If you want to use all your other nice spells, too bad, because everyone else wants those spell slots to be filled with healing. You just need to establish with your party that your role isn't to heal everyone all the time (it is best to do that before the campaign actually starts and stick with it the entire time, but unfortunately it is too late for that, though not really by your fault. Once the other players expect healing it is much harder to deny it.)
Fireclave 07-03-07, 02:37 AM	Everyone: Get Cloaks or Vests of Resistance asap. And while we're at it, some Potions O' Cure Mod Wounds, so the Cleric can smash some heads. Fragile Rogue: Remind him that Combat Expertise and Feinting only work in melee. It isn't that those feats work better in melee, the problem is that those two feats aren't even useful to him when he's actually doing what his rogue is built to do. Retrain Combat Expertise and Improved Feint for feats that compliment is style. I suggest Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) and Crossbow Sniper if he wants more ranged sneak attack damage, or Able Sniper (RotW) and Woodland Archer (RotW) if he just wants to be plain better at sniping. Also, Amulet of Health should be near the top of the priority list. And while we're at it, a Wand O' Cure Light Wounds, so the Cleric can smash some heads. Earthbound Swordsage: Swordsages don't have much in the way of ranged maneuvers, so that's forgivable. However, he still has several options here. Try adding a bit more magic to that Shortbow (perhaps Holy or Outsider Bane). Get some Winged Boots or Wings of Flying. If his opponents are flying by non-magical means, get some Tanglefoot Bags and some Bolas (even with the -4 proficiency penalty, that's still a ranged trip). Take Leadership and get an intelligent flying mount, and have that mount take the Improved Flight feat (CA) to make it easier for the mount to maneuver in battle, inside dungeons, etc. Swordsages don't have UMD as a class list so... but wait...they get six skill points per level. The Swordsage can spare a few for some cross class ranks. So while we're at it, a Wand O' Cure Light Wounds, so the Cleric can smash some heads. KA-Fizzle Warlock: Get a Wand of Assay Spell Resistance (or Spell Vulnerability if you're feeling thrifty and lucky), and/or a wand of a spell that ignore SR (like orb spells, splinter bolt, ect). Warlocks also have good Bab, so it may be time to invest in a good melee or ranged weapon. He has a point with Precise Shot. A -4 penalty to your 1-shot primary attack per round is no joke. If he's having a hard time with will saves, buff him with Protection from (Who-ever) or Owl's Wisdom, or give him a Ring of Spell Storing with a few charges of those spells. And while we're at it, a Wand O' Cure Light Wounds, so the Cleric can smash some heads. Turtle Cleric: Get some Boots of Striding and Sprinting, Boots of Skating, Winged Boots, or Wings of Flying (whichever fits your budge). Get some Gloves of Dexterity to add to your ranged touch attacks, AC, and Reflex saves. If you expect AoE-based energy damage sometime during the day, prepare Resist Energy a few times. Whatever heavy armor you prefer to use, get a mithril version of that armor so it'll be treated as medium and slow you down a bit less (when running anyway). Or instead, get some mithril medium armor so it will be treated as light and won't slow you down at all. Or dip a level in Monk, grab a Monk's Belt, some Bracers of Armor, and go unarmored. Or dip a level in Barbarian, pick up Combat Expertise, and some medium mithril armor. And while we're at it, a Wand O' Cure Light Wounds, so you can save some spell slots for some head smashing. And finally, remind your party that your god is an awesome and mighty god, and his gifts should not be so frivolously squandered. Through you, he shares his might to aid the party, not be their crutch. You are the party's connection to the divine, not a band-aid dispenser. Kord helps he who helps themselves. Then tell them to go buy some Wands of Cure Light Wounds. ...or something to that effect... And if any of them try to give you any lip about what Kord would/would not say, ask them "Who has the ranks in Knowledge (Religion)? Who? Me. That's right!"
Salla 07-03-07, 03:12 AM	BTW ... Please tell me that at least the Warlock is going to take Vitriolic Blast as soon as it's available? :)
buzzsawl 07-03-07, 04:19 AM	Get a cape of the mountebank or teleport something or others... Honestly...a cleric of Kord shouldn't be running around healbotting. I mean Kord's Sunday Morning Services are freakin boxing matches. Toss some contingent heals (Fortunate Fate) or prepare one of the immediate action heals from Spell Compendium and jog your way into melee w/ the rest of them. Or tell them to spend cash on some potions. By the numbers, it's also mostly wasteful to try healbotting d&d...I mean damage spells up the dice by your level, while healing spells up the + by your level. I'll take an extra 15d6 damage over a +15hp heal any day (and while some might call this 'meta-gaming' it's hard for me to believe that anybody wouldn't notice that big of a difference inside the game).
Toloran 07-03-07, 09:32 AM	Hmm... There isn't really a whole lot you can do about your party without making them remake their characters (which isn't needed in anycase). As such, your best option is to pick up a few wands of vigor (Spell Compendium: Gives Fast Healing 2 for 10 rounds + 1 per level). It is relatively cheap and is efficent enough that you don't have to buy them often. Then just go in to combat and do what you do best :) Only use your healing spells when someone is in dire need (as in, well below half generally). Otherwise, just use the wand and smash face. Since you are now attacking as well, your enemies will die faster and thus you won't have to heal as much. EDIT: Oh yeah, there are a few things your party can do though. The fore-mentioned vitriolic blast is a good invocation for the warlock to pick up. It is one of the best damage dealing warlock essences and it ignores spell resistance (granted, a lot of evil outsiders are resistant/immune to acid.... oh well). Otherwise, just hope he rolls well on his caster level checks :) The swordsage doesn't really have too many options for ranged maneuvers (there are a few but not many). Your best option to help him with flying foes is to make him fly as well. Unless you have the travel domain (Doubtful), your best bet is the Air Walk spell. It's a 4th level spell but hey, at least you don't lose a sizeable chunk of your parties damage :) The rogues problem is a bit more difficult. I suggest he picks up the feat Fade into Violence from Players Handbook 2. It allows him to bluff opponents so they attack his party members rather then him. Then he can safely move in to melee range if he needs to. Combat Panache might also be useful (also from PHB2). It is a tactical feat that does a number of useful things for him including diverting enemies attacks at others (including other enemies), the ability to "Play Dead" and then generate an AoO with your target lacking their dexterity bonus (yay for sneak attack), and use intimidate to make opponents have difficulty attacking you.
Skara 07-03-07, 09:47 AM	Fireclave is so very right. The only thing I can say is that when they can afford it, don't get wands of cure light wounds, get Circle of Vigor. Assuming you will mostly be in the same general area, this will save your butts during a fight. Heck, it's a wand, so if the rogue wants to hang back and snipe but he's getting hurt, cast it over by him too. 30ft radius.
RainerNader 07-03-07, 03:17 PM	Hey guys, Thanks for all the great advice! Well, just to back up the swordsage, there really are no ranged maneuvers, so a refusal to take ranged maneuvers is really an inability to do such. They really are just completely lacking at range unless they take ranged feats and fight like everyone else at range. That's actually really good to know, I'm not very familiar with the ToB rules and classes. And he has done a nice job, IMO, takes stances and stuff that increase his mobility. Flying creatures are a bummer, but I'm happy to cast Enlarge Person on him to give him some reach. Kord strikes me as the sort who would preach a philosophy of self-sufficiency. You should definitely encourage them to pull their own weight, as it were. That's actually a really good point. I figured Kord would be one to really frown on leaving an ally dying on the battlefield, but he'd probably be just as likely to espouse a 'Kord helps those who help themselves' philosophy. Turtle Cleric: Get some Boots of Striding and Sprinting, Boots of Skating, Winged Boots, or Wings of Flying (whichever fits your budge). Get some Gloves of Dexterity to add to your ranged touch attacks, AC, and Reflex saves. If you expect AoE-based energy damage sometime during the day, prepare Resist Energy a few times. Whatever heavy armor you prefer to use, get a mithril version of that armor so it'll be treated as medium and slow you down a bit less (when running anyway). Or instead, get some mithril medium armor so it will be treated as light and won't slow you down at all. Or dip a level in Monk, grab a Monk's Belt, some Bracers of Armor, and go unarmored. Or dip a level in Barbarian, pick up Combat Expertise, and some medium mithril armor. And while we're at it, a Wand O' Cure Light Wounds, so you can save some spell slots for some head smashing. Fireclave, thanks for putting so much time into a post with lots of good advice, but thanks especially for these options with my own character. Definitely something to consider... By the numbers, it's also mostly wasteful to try healbotting d&d...I mean damage spells up the dice by your level, while healing spells up the + by your level. I'll take an extra 15d6 damage over a +15hp heal any day (and while some might call this 'meta-gaming' it's hard for me to believe that anybody wouldn't notice that big of a difference inside the game). I think this is a really good point... it's just a sheer efficiency argument that they may not be aware of. Again, thanks for all the advice... I'll let you all know how it goes next session!
xaqariah 07-03-07, 04:32 PM	I agree with the "you're alive, aren't you?" thought. Players get attached to their characters, and become protective of them. Characters tend to last longer than their players are willing to admit (or realize). I've played a Cleric a number of times, in the recent past, and I have had to deal with other players wanting to use me as a "bandage", while I wanted to participate with the rest of them, because Clerics can be cool, too. -If they're not dead, they're fine. (Although "almost dead" -single digits- might be close enough to warrent help, but this is situational...) -If they are negative, then get them back on their feet. -Help them to help themselves, spend some of that group treasure money on potions and magical equipment to reduce their weaknesses. (Everyone has weaknesses, and many times they can't be completely removed, but magic can help out quite a bit.)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-03-07, 05:15 PM	Human Rogue - Focused mostly on archery, except he took Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Except his CON is only 10, meaning any time he's going to feint, that means he's in melee and by himself (otherwise he could just flank). So basically half his feats have been spent on maneuvers that put him in mortal danger whenever he tries to use them. Also, as rogues tend to go, his Fort and Will saves are pretty bad. Combat expertise, and improved feint, are fine feats for a rogue. Ideally he's never in melee, but we all know **** happens, and from the looks of things he won't be able to rely on his cleric friend, so he should be able to fend for himself. Also bad fort, and will saves are a by product of poor base, fort and will saves. Kinda like why wizards aren't known for their fort saves, and your reflex save tanks. Cloak of resistance will solve that. Human Swordsage - All the martial adept classes kick butt and this guy is no exception, except he seemingly refuses to learn any maneuvers that give him any ranged attack. Which means any flying enemy reduces him to doing 1d6+1 with a shortbow. This is because there are no maneuvers for a ranged swordsage. In fact if you were to look at the armor, and weapon porfeincies again you'd discover that the swordsage is proficient with all martial melee weapons. So technically he isn't proficient with that short bow of his. (Unless of course he burnt a feat on martial weapon proficiency, or has it through a racial.) Catfolk Warlock - Despite knowing ahead of time that our DM was throwing lots of outsiders at us, and outsiders usually = spell resistance, he refuses to take Spell Penetration or any other feats that would help him out. He pretty much has no good saves, since Wisdom is his dump stat. He actually took Force of Personality at 1st level, then changed it because "I don't want to wait until 6th level to get Precise Shot." I can see his point on this one, especially given that there is a swordsage in the group. I wouldn't want to incur the -4 for firing into melee all the time either. And spell penetration is only a +1 to the SR check. +1 vrs SR, or the equivalent of firing into melee at +4. I'd probably go with precise shot first as well. Human Cleric - My character and yeah, he's got the usual cleric weaknesses, namely heavy armor makes him move as slow as molasses, and his Reflex save is lame. But I have spent a lot of time trying to minimize his weaknesses as much as possible. O'rlly? Say like a rogue minimizing his suck a tude in melee with combat expertise, and improved feint? Basically, I feel like every battle we have, results in some percentage of the party being ineffective at best, and on the brink of death at worst. Even worse, since I'm playing a cleric, I basically have to run around casting healing spells, resurgence, restoration, etc. Sorry but isn't that what cleric excel at? I mean really who should be handing out the healing? The swordsage? Ok a rogue can use cure sticks, but is that anywhere near what a half-assed cleric can be doing? Now, this isn't the usual "my players are goofing off and don't play seriously and make dumb characters that suck" post. These characters are actually pretty damn optimized. The Rogue can do sick sneak attack damage and has tons of skills he uses in every combat. The Swordsage does absurd amounts of damage and has stuff that gives him teleportation and invisibility to boot. The Warlock gets a lot of mileage out of his invocations and spends a lot of his money on wands and other items to give him some versatility. Ok then why did you say they were ineffectual? the rogue in my party invested heavily in his cha, but only but 4 ranks in bluff, and nothing else. He says he's more a physical rogue, yet his dex is only a 16 (after a +2 racial mod) and his strength is a 10. He averages about 9 damage in combat, with sneak attack. he misses the mundain traps about half the time, and can find magic ones only on a natural 20. his fort and will save are 3 each, counting a cloak of resistance +1. Thats ineffectual..you've got a good party there, don't ***** about them. And my DM doesn't intentionally target them with weak points all the time. It's just that these weak points are so fundamental (like, SAVING THROWS) that they can't help but come into play time after time again. And then I feel like I always end up being the guy who needs to 'clean up the mess,' so to speak. again that is what you do best. And hey its not like you come out that fireball squeaky clean. They call it team work for a reason. In one of our recent battles, I ended up basically going at it solo. The party ended up blinded/confused/unconscious/dominated/etc, and I just ended up casting a bunch of Summon Monster spells to deal with the mooks, then went after the BBEG with Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. It was temporarily relieving, but then everyone in the group was basically like, "wait, you didn't prepare Resurgence, Dispel Magic, and Restoration? Why not? You screwed us." So why weren't you casting dispel, and restoration, and healing? I mean its not like the party needed you to bash heads, you just said that the swordsage does that. Or is there a reason you want to do his role? Maybe to outshine him? perhaps the swordsage is a better healer then you? Seriously your level 9 cleric couldn't find anything better to do then bash someone with his mace? I think I found why your party is having trouble... Kord... and his feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. His STR is higher than his WIS, so I really built him hoping to get more of a chance to smash heads, not play healbot. I think we found the effective character right here. First why are you doubling up on the tank role? I thought you said that the swordsage was good at it. And why is your strength higher then your wisdom? You may not need it for save DCs, but whats wrong with bonus spells. Its your primary casting stat for love of Pelor! I'm guessing you dumped cha too? You can only move 20ft, charge 40. What happens when the bad guy is 50ft away? or 80? Why are you using high mobility tactics when your max speed suckth. As a barbarian you'd get a base movement speed of 40ft.further all shock trooper is going to do is to lower your AC...you only have a d8 HD why do you want a low AC? Not that your best charger out there anyways... I mean really talk about fundamental weaknesses. How many times does a save come up compared to how many times your AC does? Especially when you are in melee. You could make improved grapple kinda work with enlarge person, but you just don't the base attack to back that up. Even with the +8 from being large, and improved grapple, your aren't going to win against the things that will grapple you. Besides which YOUR A FREAKING SPELL CASTER! WHY IN KORDS NAME ARE YOU GRAPPLING? Also had you chosen even one level of monk you'd get better saves, wisdom to AC, and better maneuverability. Also you'd be able to pick up improved grapple as a bonus feat, although I'm not sure you'd want to. Lastly you did not mention that you have improved unarmed strike...you need it for improved grapple. Power attack, with a 3/4 base attack, are you serious? You can power attack for a max of 6, the barbarian can power attack for 9. You also lack proficiency with a two handed weapon...so your power attacking on a 1 for 1 basouse. Are you sure you couldn't find anything better to do? The only reason why I could see power attack on a cleric would be for divine power, but you don't have that listed. Don't get me wrong clerics can be effective in melee, but your just going about it all wrong. Whatcha want to do is use things divine meta magics for your buffs. heck even extra smite is better then what your rolling with. Use the destruction domain, and extra turning if you dump cha. I'm not meaning to rag on you too much, but you really auto to at least play an effective character yourself before coming about the rest of your group. All of whom are playing better build characters then you, going on what you've told us anyways. So in character, while he would never let an ally die if he could do anything about it, I think he'd be pretty disgruntled with his role in the party, too. I can see why your party is a bit disgruntled with you. It really is a miscommunication. They thought you were playing a cleric. You on other hand are playing a paladin with less martial capabilities, and better spells. As far as they are concerned they already have an effective meleer, the swordsage. what they need is an effective heal battery, their cleric. If that person isn't you then you need to make that clear to them. Especially seeing as how your playing the best class for it.
RainerNader 07-03-07, 06:32 PM	On_the_wings_of_TPK: Every time I post on these boards, you do nothing but antagonize me. What is your problem? I KNOW you're antagonizing me because you defend all the other characters for their 'versatility,' but then do nothing but criticize my character for not being a one-dimensional healbot. Ok then why did you say they were ineffectual? My point has been that they have glaring weaknesses that can't help but get exploited in any combat, and rather than attempt to eliminate their weaknesses or put themselves in a position where the weaknesses don't matter, they just expect me to bail them out every time. You can only move 20ft, charge 40. What happens when the bad guy is 50ft away? or 80? Why are you using high mobility tactics when your max speed suckth. Well, then I'd cast Flame Strike, Spiritual Weapon, or any number of excellent ranged spells... if the party didn't get themselves in a jam and need me to swap those spells out for cure spells. You could make improved grapple kinda work with enlarge person, but you just don't the base attack to back that up. Even with the +8 from being large, and improved grapple, your aren't going to win against the things that will grapple you. Besides which YOUR A FREAKING SPELL CASTER! WHY IN KORDS NAME ARE YOU GRAPPLING? Also had you chosen even one level of monk you'd get better saves, wisdom to AC, and better maneuverability. Also you'd be able to pick up improved grapple as a bonus feat, although I'm not sure you'd want to. Lastly you did not mention that you have improved unarmed strike...you need it for improved grapple. Uh, haven't you heard of Divine Power? Why do Psychic Warriors make great grapplers despite a partial BAB? Because they have psionics that augment grappling. Why can't the same apply to clerics? And I DID mention Improved Unarmed Strike, in my list of all my feats. Why are you being a jerk? Power attack, with a 3/4 base attack, are you serious? You can power attack for a max of 6, the barbarian can power attack for 9. You also lack proficiency with a two handed weapon...so your power attacking on a 1 for 1 basouse. Are you sure you couldn't find anything better to do? The only reason why I could see power attack on a cleric would be for divine power, but you don't have that listed. You can still use a one-handed weapon with two hands to get the 2 for 1 base attack bonus. My DM also gave me greatsword proficiency for free (Kord's favored weapon). And I DID mention that I cast Divine Power, in the last paragraph of my first post. As far as they are concerned they already have an effective meleer, the swordsage. Right... I guess it's impossible for two characters competent in melee to ever exist in the same party. I have responded only to make it abundantly obvious to everyone that you saw a post from me, said to yourself "boy, I can't wait to tear RainerNader a new one," and then proceeded to nitpick everything I said with pretty much ridiculously flimsy arguments. I really don't know what I've done for you to hold such a vendetta against me, but whatever. If that post made you feel better about yourself, then great, because I really can't see how it did anything else constructive for anyone.
windscar18 07-03-07, 06:56 PM	RainerNader.... How about you stop being paranoid about OTWofTPK and actually THINK about what he's saying. He's essentially saying that, despite the fact that you wanted to be good at melee, despite the fact that you didn't want to be healbot, YOU SIGNED UP FOR IT BY CHOOSING THE CLASS! You feel like you're healing half of the time? GREAT, because that's the types of things you should be doing. Well, it's not great that your party is dying half of the time, but you actually have priorities rather than just being a dumb idiot and ignoring your team. Of course, I sympathize with you, but you have to stop complaining about your teammates (who I still don't see what you dislike about so much: everyone has their weaknesses). EVERYONE has to pick up on each other's slack, and, like On_The_Wings_of_TPK said, you need to at least be prepared to pick up some restoration, etc.
Endarrion 07-03-07, 07:11 PM	He's essentially saying that, despite the fact that you wanted to be good at melee, despite the fact that you didn't want to be healbot, YOU SIGNED UP FOR IT BY CHOOSING THE CLASS! Yeah, 'cause, you know, there's no such thing as C-zilla who says, "Everything you can do I can do better." Sure, he signed up to be the healer, but not to constantly put back together a bunch of characters who throw themselves into the fray because, "Hey, we got a cleric." A rogue with a Con of 10 being a melee specialist? Huh? I hope his AC is through the roof. Basically it comes down to this: Clerics can heal, but they can do other things as well. One character should not be forced to make up for the weaknesses/ineptness of all others because he chose a certain class. Oh, and lets keep it friendly here, I'm sure no one really means to attack anyone else :)
Disciple_of_Juiblex 07-03-07, 07:17 PM	He's essentially saying that, despite the fact that you wanted to be good at melee, despite the fact that you didn't want to be healbot, YOU SIGNED UP FOR IT BY CHOOSING THE CLASS! Yes and all rogues are chaotic and use daggers, all druids use hate civilization, all sorcerers are realated to dragons, all wizards hang out in librarys and specilize in evocation so they cast fireball more often... NOT ALL CLERICS (pc) ARE HEALBOTS! Hes a cleric to a god of strength, and his build emphisises meele. So he should wait in the back and pull heals off and never do what the character would probally do? So what if he deals slightly less damage than a barbarian, as a cleric he has alot more versitility. Yes, dnd, is a group game but that dosent mean you have to sacrifice everthing for the group. If you want to play rogue and another person already said he was creating a rogue you shouldent have to put that character away becuse of "dibs" or anything silly like that. Hosestly it sounds like RainerNader is just frustrated about his role and i dont blame him. hes still healing, and from what ive read it dosent sound like hes ignoring them, even in the example where he went off to smash it dident sound like he had any better options that time.
windscar18 07-03-07, 08:46 PM	Yes, but the players of the table EXPECT you to use ANY resources that you have, especially one that's as CRITICAL as healing. And this is a perfectly valid assumption: Clerics are of different capability of any other class. Why? Because they know ALL spells on their list, and some of those spells are CRITICAL. This isn't an argument of whether a Cleric is a healbot or not: I know it's not the only thing a Cleric can do, in that I recently built a battle cleric for my friend. But, in the end, by BEING a cleric, you're basically saying, "I can heal guys." and the non-cleric players WILL say "OMG, HEALIES PLZ!" regardless of your other focuses. By contrast, a wizard can cop out by saying "That's a forbidden spell to me despite the fact we need it," a rogue can say "I didn't put skill points in that skill," a Barbarian can say, "I'm a finesse fighter using Cityscape variant, not a rager," etc.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-03-07, 08:52 PM	Rian: I'm really sorry that you think I'm out get your something. I'm not. truth be told i couldn't care about you, but since your posting on the board I'd figure i would offer my suggestion. if you really don't want to hear what i have to say there is the ignore feature. Also why are you paranoid? Or was that my comments hit close to home. Sorry I mis read your post, and didn't see that you had improved unarmed strike. i still posit that a level in monk would be a better way of getting that. Now instead of saving you one feat, it saves you two. Also your unarmed strike damage is one higher. As for grappling; you win the grapple. About a 50.50 half the time, and you deal your unarmed damage...a D4? Wouldn't your sword be better? But then isn't a waste of two feats? On divine power. Its nice spell, and sure to help you out a lot. But you have what? 4 slots for it tops. And it only lasts 1round/level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't have the feats, or build to back that up. On you playing a smashy cleric. yes cleric are quiet good at smashing people. however I don't yours is really all that, I've seen better. Honestly your putting your major cleric abilities (spells, and turning) to waste, and focusing on strength based fighting. If you want to do that its cool, but I don't think what you've got is best for it. I'd either rebuild , or change classes. The way your playing your guy, and what your relying on the fighter/barbarian build will be better then you. I'd go with extend spell, persistent spell, DMM persistent spell, extra turning, and divine might, or extra smite. I'd have the strength domian, along with the destruction domain. Or quicken and DMM quicken. It isn't the constant buff that DMM persent offers, but it is more than one buff in single battle. Also shock troop is waste of time. You can move someone with it... big deal. trip, improved trip + spiked chain is better. And I'd rather not have the hit to AC. So charge, and power attack all in. Thats a -8 to your AC. Your wearing full plate, so I know you dex can't cash that check. As for picking apart your build, and upping theres. It honestly seemed like the weakest out the group. I also had few major points: 1) You have your weaknesses too. And they are more glaring then your complaints about your friends. Your AC and reflex save is low. as apposed to lacking a good ranged attack (which to a large extend you do too) and poor saves. Don't judge them unless your willing to look at yourself critical. 2) Tthey actually aren't all that bad. 3) They are looking at you to casting healing, and restoration, because you are the only one who can. Like it or not the group needs someone to be the healer, and thats you because they physically can't fill roll, even if they wanted to.
Salla 07-03-07, 09:52 PM	Yes, but the players of the table EXPECT you to use ANY resources that you have, especially one that's as CRITICAL as healing. And this is a perfectly valid assumption: Clerics are of different capability of any other class. Why? Because they know ALL spells on their list, and some of those spells are CRITICAL. This isn't an argument of whether a Cleric is a healbot or not: I know it's not the only thing a Cleric can do, in that I recently built a battle cleric for my friend. But, in the end, by BEING a cleric, you're basically saying, "I can heal guys." and the non-cleric players WILL say "OMG, HEALIES PLZ!" regardless of your other focuses. By contrast, a wizard can cop out by saying "That's a forbidden spell to me despite the fact we need it," a rogue can say "I didn't put skill points in that skill," a Barbarian can say, "I'm a finesse fighter using Cityscape variant, not a rager," etc. There is a big difference between 'I'll heal you' and 'I'll heal you and never do anything else'. Actually ... if your DM permits, Rainer, you might look at the PHBII if you have it and use the clerical ability substitution that lets you spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains rather than cures. If you can't cure spontaneously, the party is less likely to expect you to 'healbot'.
windscar18 07-03-07, 10:14 PM	There is a big difference between 'I'll heal you' and 'I'll heal you and never do anything else'. Yes, I'm trying to get him to understand that the former doesn't mean the latter and that even if he's a battle cleric, he should still have a restoration or two prepared for the occassional emergency because it's what the party basically expects him to do. Not that that MATTERS anyway, but...
Salla 07-03-07, 10:58 PM	Yes, I'm trying to get him to understand that the former doesn't mean the latter and that even if he's a battle cleric, he should still have a restoration or two prepared for the occassional emergency because it's what the party basically expects him to do. Not that that MATTERS anyway, but... I take the contrary position that the party should expect nothing of him that he doesn't tell them to expect. Besides, we enter nicely into Wand and Scroll territory, again, especially since the Warlock can take 10 on UMD checks.
Ebonarc 07-03-07, 11:03 PM	*cues the Six Million Dollar Man theme* I'd suggest a little character rebuilding. The rogue: He/she should consider switching out the melee feats for some ranged ones. If the player's heart is set on melee, he needs to put some more points in Con. A 10 in that score is never a good thing, but especially if a character intends to stay in melee. The swordsage: I'm not sure how swordsages work, but the player may want to consider trading in some levels for some in fighter. That way, he/she can use the free proficiency to get a Composite Longbow, and the bonus feats to make it work: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization if he/she goes that high, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. If, however, the rogue does completely change over to melee, a melee-only swordsage may not be too disastrous. The warlock: Can't say much here, since I have no experience with them. You: If you are using a two-handed weapon (I think you said you are), you may want to consider switching to a one-handed. That will of course hurt your melee damage, but the shield you will now be able to use will help your AC. I'd seriously consider getting rid of Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike. Replace those with something that will help you attack using your melee weapon. Finally, even though you are melee focused, I'd move some points from Strength to Wisdom. A few extra bonus spells per day are always a good thing, and your buffs will dwarf Strength bonuses any day. The Core save boosting feats would be good for those who need them. Cloaks of Resistance all around, as has been mentioned.
Serrin 07-03-07, 11:40 PM	Get the rest of the party to pump their saves, and pump their con. Nobody can afford to have low hp or low saves, and that tends to be why clerics run around playing healbot when they could be contributing to the combat and healing the party after the dust settles, or if and when it hits the fan. Trying to keep the party in one piece in the middle of combat is pretty much nuts, considering it's three glass cannons and you. If you're winning, it's because you do damage that much faster than the other side, or because you're abusing summons to hugely increase your durability, not because the party can last that long under fire either with or without healing. Harass the rest of the party into taking Leadership at level 9, and get cohorts either to be healbots, cannon fodder, or both. Gently remind your party that Kord doesn't heal crybabies. Get the warlock to play battlefield control, either with his invocations or wands. If you can't mitigate damage with AC and saves, you can mitigate it with stopping your opponents from attacking. Tell your party to figure out ways to stop dying so fast. If your party is getting members mauled/mutilated/KO'd/crippled every fight, either you're using bad tactics or the DM isn't accounting for your level of (non)optimization.
nightside_samurai 07-04-07, 12:17 AM	I appreciate you posted this thread since I have the opposite problem at times and this will help me greatly at my next session. You see, my last character was killed by a Maximized Fireball...one that the party Wizard cast...on purpose. The DM let me take over the NPC Billie Graham, Cleric of Jeeesus! :) And I've redone him with the healing and death domains, and I know they're gonna expect me to stand on the sidelines and heal, heal, heal. So when the next Fireball comes crashing down on my head, I'll respond to their pleas for healing with: "Our holy savior Jeeesus! gave of himself for his brothers...Next time remember that when you drop a Fireball on my head sucka." :D
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-04-07, 01:26 AM	You may have easier go of it if you maybe sit down with your party and explain to them that you aren't the heal bot they expect you to be. Tell them straight out that at best your have a back up in healing, kinda like the rogue has a back up in melee. perhaps suggest to them that one of them remakes their characters into the healbot. They may want to also think about getting a utility arcane back up as well.
Fireclave 07-04-07, 01:54 AM	In response to OTWoTPK's statements concerning the rogue's feat, I would like to amend the advance that I gave earlier. Although I still suggest retraining Improved Feint and Combat Expertise, if the rogue intended to use those feats to mitigate his weaknesses in melee, that's a perfectly good strategy as well. Just make sure that when (not if) that time comes, he can make as effective use of those feats as possible. A good backup melee weapon is a must. I suggest a moderately enchanted adamantine dagger (+1 at least). I suggest a dagger because it's light, concealable, and finesse-able. I suggest adamantine not just for beating DR/adamantine, but also because such a weapon is just plain useful for a rogue (cuts locks, cuts bolts, cuts chains, cuts traps, cuts solid rock walls, cuts the guard's weapons, cuts julian fries...). Since this weapon is not intended to see combat that often, invest in a burst effect (DMGII and probably the MIC) or two instead of a standard special abilities. It doesn't matter much if you can only use Holy Burst a few times per day when that's as many times as your plan on using it, and burst effects are cheap. And while the rogue can probably hold his own in melee with Combat Expertise and the right equipment, he might want to consider investing in a Wand of Dimension Door or a Cape of the Mountebank so he can quickly get himself far away melee range and into a more defensible position to continue his missile barrage. And concerning your expected healing contribution to the party, I agree with both sides of this argument. By taking the mantle of cleric, you become the man to see when the party needs healing and the party will expect you to be able to fill that role. It's the job clerics were generally designed to do, so you should do it and do it well. However, I also agree that the party shouldn't be depending on you to bail them out of the fryer time and time again. If they need a spell that you haven't prepared, sucks to be them. You'll prepare it when you get around to it. You're only one cleric. So when you meet with your group again, in addition to discussing changes to all of your characters to lessen their weaknesses, you should also discuss tactics. Discuss ways for the party to lessen the amount of danger they put themselves in and ways to better synergize all of parties abilities in creative ways to end, avoid, or escape from dangerous encounters quickly (Cleric/Swordsage with Freedom of Movement laying the smack down on foes while in the middle of the Warlock's Chilling Tentacles maybe? Or perhaps using the Tentacles as a barrier while the tanks run through unopposed and go straight for the caster. And perhaps putting the Cleric's Shocktrooper feat to good use by tossing enemy spellcasters into the tentacles?). And most importantly, discuss backup plans. Now that your party has experienced the horror of being blinded, confused, unconscious, and dominated, all at the same time and during the same encounter, do you have a (escape) plan if/when this happens again or a plan for avoiding such scenario altogether? Also note, and remind your party aware of the fact, that you are the only member of the party whose primary special abilities are finite and limited per day. Rogues can sneak attack all day, Swordsages regain all their maneuvers at the end of the encounter, Warlocks can spam the same abilities over and over, but you, as a prepared spellcaster, don't have that kind of freedom. But, unlike your comrades, you're abilities are not as static. The spells you prepared today may or may not be the spells you prepare next Thursday. So give your party plenty of heads up and make it known to them what spells you are planning to prepare. Get their input before preparing them as well. That way, they will hopefully not put themselves into situations that will require the use of a spell that you did not prepare and will not put themselves into situation that would force you to convert a needed spell into a Cure X. And with everybody in, more or less, agreement with what spells you are preparing, no one should be gripping if you don't have a certain spell prepared.
elporko 07-04-07, 03:18 PM	One spell that will save you a lot of grief- Mass Conviction- a morale bonus to all saves that you can affect your whole party with will solve a lot of those pesky problems that you've been experiencing.
CCS 07-04-07, 08:28 PM	Soooo... thoughts on what I can do in this situation? You might want to look into finding various magic items that'll boost saves, cure potions, etc. Other than that? Just suck it up. You don't really get any say in what type of character they choose to play. You can however influance their item/feat selection abit in game by simply NOT preping some of those "vital" spells all the time. There's nothing in the rules that demands you do so. Or that forces you to use them on people..... If they complain? Well, you have an easy out. Simply claim that your god wouldn't grant them to you for some reason (and if you speak to your DM before game he can even make that be true :) & nod his head at the right time).
Genetic 07-04-07, 09:39 PM	Another option for the warlock is the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species. It will turn his eldritch blast into a supernatural ability, which gets rid of spell resistance problems.
Psikerlord 07-04-07, 11:18 PM	A cleric of kord reduced to a heal*****. Shameful. Tell your pitiful comrades that Kord makes the rules and they need to take care of their own healing - but - that you will help out in emergencies (since you are the best at it). Our party cleric requires us all to buy divine scrolls of healing if we want regular healing from him. Works a treat: we get powerful healing for cheap, and he can still silence, flamestrike and divine power to his hearts content. And they should all get healing belts (MIC) too, for 750gp, everyone can afford one (or two, or three...)
Salla 07-05-07, 12:20 AM	Another option for the warlock is the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species. It will turn his eldritch blast into a supernatural ability, which gets rid of spell resistance problems. Technically illegal, as the Eldritch Blast is a class feature, not an innate (racial) ability.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-05-07, 12:28 AM	You might want to look into finding various magic items that'll boost saves, cure potions, etc. Other than that? Just suck it up. You don't really get any say in what type of character they choose to play. You can however influance their item/feat selection abit in game by simply NOT preping some of those "vital" spells all the time. There's nothing in the rules that demands you do so. Or that forces you to use them on people..... If they complain? Well, you have an easy out. Simply claim that your god wouldn't grant them to you for some reason (and if you speak to your DM before game he can even make that be true :) & nod his head at the right time). Theres nothing in the rules preventing them from killing him and taking his ****. Yaa I know Pking is bad, and we all should work as a team. And if we are supposed to be working as a team, then why is the cleric somehow exempt from this? Should the rogue refuse to find traps in the dungeon? The cleric can find his own traps. And should the swordsage refuse to block the monsters from killing his sorry but. Sure he could probably tank as well, but thats not the point. should the warlock charge for his services? Those spells are vital, and as such he has vital role in casting them. If he doesn't have to pull his wait, by not performing his role. what possible motivation is there for the other players to fulfill their vital functions. Team work works best when all the members of the team are doing their jobs. There are no small roles, just small players.
Thubby 07-05-07, 12:59 AM	Theres nothing in the rules preventing them from killing him and taking his ****. Yaa I know Pking is bad, and we all should work as a team. And if we are supposed to be working as a team, then why is the cleric somehow exempt from this? Should the rogue refuse to find traps in the dungeon? The cleric can find his own traps. And should the swordsage refuse to block the monsters from killing his sorry but. Sure he could probably tank as well, but thats not the point. should the warlock charge for his services? Those spells are vital, and as such he has vital role in casting them. If he doesn't have to pull his wait, by not performing his role. what possible motivation is there for the other players to fulfill their vital functions. Team work works best when all the members of the team are doing their jobs. There are no small roles, just small players. from what i can tell he is pulling his weight, he has kept them alive. the problem is, rather than trying to work on their own, and not die, they leave the entire burden on the cleric to keep them from getting charmed, blown up, AND healed. that is not right. they are leeching. or at least thats what i think the OP is saying
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-05-07, 02:20 AM	from what i can tell he is pulling his weight, he has kept them alive. the problem is, rather than trying to work on their own, and not die, they leave the entire burden on the cleric to keep them from getting charmed, blown up, AND healed. that is not right. they are leeching. or at least thats what i think the OP is saying My understanding is that they are relying on the cleric, to well be a cleric. They are looking at him for dispel magic, (warlock doesn't get this) and restoration, and healing. Which isn't too hard to understand. first he is the only one in the party who can cast thoughs spells, so why wouldn't he? And secondly why should;d the cleric be tanking, isn't that why they have the swordsage? It all seems kinda of selfish that the cleric wants to take over the swordsages role in the party, and the expense of his own. I sappose they could get scrolls, and wands and then have the rogue cast them But if I had to do that because me cleric was preaching self suffientiency I'd be getting a new cleric. This time a team player, oh yaa and those scrolls we have to buy now because churchy is too good for healing, their coming out of his share of the loot.
WolfHati 07-05-07, 04:33 AM	The problem is a cleric is the basic class for any sort of holy person who doesn't worship nature. A priest of Kord should in no way have healing as a primary duty- maybe a secondary one after all the tail-whooping is done. Obviously, this cleric of Kord is just as effective at whooping tail as healing everyone, since when he didn't and left people to their own darn fate, things worked out fine anyways. Honestly, in combat healing isn't even that necessary except for cases of really bad luck. Often times it's a whole lot more advantageous to got 100% offensive rather than 75% offensive and 25% trying to make up for what the enemy offense is throwing down.
Genetic 07-05-07, 09:19 AM	Technically illegal, as the Eldritch Blast is a class feature, not an innate (racial) ability. I did indeed read a post by Rich Baker that said that last night. However, it wasn't exactly a definite answer. They said to err on the side of caution however. The wording is slightly vague, but the makers of the game have stated their intent. As always, final answer is up to individual DMs.
UltimateReality 07-05-07, 12:07 PM	The problem is a cleric is the basic class for any sort of holy person who doesn't worship nature. A priest of Kord should in no way have healing as a primary duty- maybe a secondary one after all the tail-whooping is done. Obviously, this cleric of Kord is just as effective at whooping tail as healing everyone, since when he didn't and left people to their own darn fate, things worked out fine anyways. Honestly, in combat healing isn't even that necessary except for cases of really bad luck. Often times it's a whole lot more advantageous to got 100% offensive rather than 75% offensive and 25% trying to make up for what the enemy offense is throwing down. They turned out fine, to an extent. The rest of the party was basically reduced to sitting on the side lines watching him play the game, while they were charmed , dominated, held, etc. Lots of fun for him I guess, but not so much for the other players. It wouldn't take too mcuh of that be I'd walk. Posted by: TPK
RainerNader 07-05-07, 01:41 PM	from what i can tell he is pulling his weight, he has kept them alive. the problem is, rather than trying to work on their own, and not die, they leave the entire burden on the cleric to keep them from getting charmed, blown up, AND healed. that is not right. they are leeching. or at least thats what i think the OP is saying That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. Here's basically what happened. - Players made characters, characters have weak spots - I made every attempt to cover up for their weak spots - Players now never bother doing anything to mitigate weak spots I'd really just like to be 'met half way' with respect to this. Should a character never ever invest points in Escape Artist because they should be able to expect the cleric prepare Freedom of Movement and demand that he cast it all the time? They turned out fine, to an extent. The rest of the party was basically reduced to sitting on the side lines watching him play the game, while they were charmed , dominated, held, etc. Lots of fun for him I guess, but not so much for the other players. It wouldn't take too mcuh of that be I'd walk. TPK, if you really think that the only thing clerics should do it sit around and cast nothing but Cure Critical Wounds and you get angry at any cleric who does anything else, you wouldn't have gotten a chance to walk, because I would have walked a long time beforehand.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-05-07, 02:35 PM	All this stuff about it being the cleric's "duty" to play healer is bull. I have a job, where I perform certain duties, and am required to perform certain tasks. The main part of my job is building butcher block tables. Maybe I want to try building a ping-pong table today, but I don't, because my duty is to build butcher blocks. When I have free time, and I spend it playing games with my friends, I don't want to be required to do certain things that I'd rather not do. I'm there to have fun, not to work. A cleric should be defined by his domains, as a wizard is defined by his schools. You wouldn't expect a necromancer to cast Mord's Transformation or Scorching Ray constantly, and you shouldn't expect a cleric with the Strength and War domains to cast Restoration or Heal all the time. This is exactly why clerics have spontaneous curing; so you can prepare whatever you want, and still be able to heal wounds if you really need to. RainerNader: Just tell your party members that your cleric isn't designed as a healer. You wanted to play an ass-kicking holy warrior of Kord, and that's what you're doing. Tell them that you can use spontaneous healing when it's really important (ie. PCs about to die), but other than that, the party will have to rely on alternative healing/protection methods. Point out to them the options presented here (Cloaks of Resistance, Wands of Vigor, etc.) so they know what they can do. If they complain, tell them that you just want to play your character the way you designed him, which is fun for you. Say that you wouldn't force the swordsage to become an archer if you needed ranged attacks, and you expect the same respect to be given to you and your character. If they really can't deal with you not being a Band-Aid, then talk to your DM about playing a new character, and find a build that will let you bash heads and torch baddies that doesn't provide any kind of healing ability.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-05-07, 03:39 PM	Rain: perhaps I'm not being clear, perhaps your not listening. heres lets try this again. There are essentially 4 main roles that an adventuring party should have covered in order to be effective. 1) Trapfinding disbaling/skill monkey/party face. This is the guy who well finds the traps, and makes the NPCs not hate you. generally speaking a rogue is best suited for this, but bards, clerics, paladins, scouts, and sorcerers can do it as well. Just not as good as the rogue. 2) Damage mitigation. Includes fixing harmful effects such as ability damage, and petrification. Yes this is your healing, and your restorations, etc. Another way to do is to soak up the bad stuff with your face, and/or with immunities. A warforged paladin is a good example of this. Lots of HP for the damage soak, and immunities to ability damage. Coupled with high saves. However healing spells, and restorations, and whatnot are still the most efficient way to do this. Which means the cleric class is best suited for this role. (Blame the system for it not me.) However other classes can take on this roll. Paladin, Bard, ranger, druid, and favored soul all come to mind. 3) DPR. Damage per round This is the bonking of heads. As much sustained damage as you can for as long as you can until the enemy stops moving. Arcane casters, and psions are best at this. They can deal out the hurts in a short amount of time. Other classes that are well suited for this are clerics, druids, warlocks, rogues, anything in the TOB, and most martial classes. Although anything with a d10 + HD is also well suited for damage mitagation in that can soak up the damage. 4) Debuffing, and battle field control. This role attacks the enemy's abilities, neutralizes them, or dramatically reduces their combat effectiveness. Spells like hold person, ray of enfeeblement, and enervation come to mind. A grapple monkey can also do this, the problem is that monsters are just naturally better at grappling them PCS are. Good classes for this are: all spell casters, and well thats mostly it. Now the thing with you and your cleric is that you want to fulfill role number 3. DPR, and yes your cleric can do it really well. However that leaves the damage mitigation role empty. So what your looking at is a 2.5 charactaers focusing on DPR, one of trap finding and no one in debuffing, and damage mitigation. And when i say that your better suited for damage mitigation, its because you are. I'm sorry a swordsage can't cast restoration. A swordsage can not cast dispel magic, and a sword sage can not cast cure X wounds. You on the other hand can. You can also assist the others with friendly buffing. And you can also use battle field control, and debuffing a lot better then they can. Which would mean that the roles yours best suited for are 2 and 4. Now the rogue can back you up with some of those roles. through feats which exchange sneak attack dia for other effects (Like hamstring), and with UMD. But they'll still no were near the level that you bring these things too. Which means that the party is naturally going to rely on you to do them. And yaa they're right, when you refuse to do it, you are screwing them. It also isn't fair of you to try and stuff your self into the role of DPR. 1) Your party has two characters doing that already, warlock, and swordsage. and 2) By doing so you'll only serve to out shine the swordsage. Which is just plain being an arse. how would you feel if the swordsage decided to remake himself into an arcane highrophant. Then did everything you wanted to do, only better, a lot better. My advice is to A) Play the role of 2 and 4, and next time you'll take something else (filling a different role). Or B) Try and convince one of the other players to make something that will fill roles 2, and 4 so you can be the DPR guy.
RainerNader 07-05-07, 05:16 PM	Rain: perhaps I'm not being clear, perhaps your not listening. heres lets try this again. While I appreciate your thoughts on D&D game theory, and I appreciate you taking on a less critical approach than you initially did, this isn't about miscommunication or listening. We're just probably not going to come to any sort of agreement. You essentially propose that the "damage mitigation specialist" should do nothing BUT mitigate damage, and that each character has no responsibility to mitigate damage on their own. If your character has weaknesses, it's not your problem, just let the cleric fix everything. Based on everyone else's posts, I don't agree with you and I think there are at least a few people who feel the same way. I propose that if each character has some capability to mitigate damage on their own, then the damage mitigation specialist can also contribute to the other roles you mentioned, making the party more effective overall. Take the monk. The monk is clearly inferior to the barbarian when it comes to the role of 'DPR.' However, their advantage is that they don't require nearly as much damage mitigation, usually having superior saves, AC, and mobility. Thus they are not a burden on the damage mitigation specialist, freeing up actions for the damage mitigation specialist to focus on other roles. In short, I propose that a good defense will result in a stronger offense. By all means, the cleric should mitigate damage when necessary. It's just that I feel "when necessary" in my current party is "all the freaking time," and that is frustrating to me.
Ebonarc 07-05-07, 05:36 PM	Based on everyone else's posts, I don't agree with you and I think there are at least a few people who feel the same way. I propose that if each character has some capability to mitigate damage on their own, then the damage mitigation specialist can also contribute to the other roles you mentioned, making the party more effective overall. I am one of those people. In any team-based organization, the last thing you want to hear is "I don't have to deal with that, that's your department." I'll bet there are a lot of IT personnel in various corporations throughout the world who wish that the people they work with (specifically the ones always calling them) were a little more computer literate.
Psikerlord 07-05-07, 11:55 PM	Two thumbs up to RN. You play your character like you want to, and the party will have to adjust. A kord cleric bashes heads, go for it. He heals friends in emergencies, and should get kudos for it, not whinging about why didn't you also prepare restoration. The other PCs best get used to keeping themselves alive. Give them fair warning, and, if they don't get their own healing gear and try to accomodate their weaknesses a little, it's on their own head... and if you all die as a result, I'm sure you'll see a more self sufficient party next time round!
JolanthusTrel 07-06-07, 08:43 AM	I have to say he is probably more suited to Melee than the rogue is, but the two of them together would Kick glutious maximus. And is there any harm in having an extra set of brawling hands in a melee with the sword sage, for those "Bugs Mr. Rico, Millions of them!" kinda times. I'l love to have you cleric in my party. It's be different to my usual cleric, but still good.
maharai23 07-06-07, 09:00 AM	First, a god of strength who espouses physical prowess? Not uncommon to have such a character press the "pure" aspect of wrestling. It's as much a symbol of strength as anything. Kudos on the roleplaying aspect, even if it's not the MOST effective character build. You've got the spells to pump yourself up in melee, which is good. I'd also consider, however, keeping a small stock of healing spells on hand, to handle emergencies and the like. Dispel Magic and Protection from evil, and the like. There are party solutions for HP damage. Dispel needs a good check. Prot Evil will protect from possession, etc. Basically, have some of the nonstandard stuff, or spells that really shine when cast by a caster, rather than wand-spammed. Otherwise, fill that void in the melee. Also, keep in mind with that rogue... Just cause people are in the melee with him, does not mean there will be flanking opportunities. They're not horrible feats to choose. Maybe not the best, but certainly not horrible.
Karanth 07-06-07, 11:56 AM	Honestly, you are a Cleric of Kord. I can't recall seeing a Healing domain listed anywhere in there. I also seem to have missed the part where the follower and representative of a STRENGTH GOD should be spamming healing whenever people do dumb things, including make poor builds. Even with a bad build, there are some things that reasonable people will do, like take a Con over 10, take the dip for ranged ability, or make intelligent choices when it comes to SR. If the one cleric can stand, where 3 other chars fail, wtf makes it the clerics' fault?
Phrennzy 07-06-07, 12:00 PM	Sounds like a simple case of you wanting to play your cleric one way, and the rest of the group expecting you to play a 'classic' cleric, which means a main healer. Neither views are wrong. You just need to be up front and tell them you won't be a healer. Have a few suggestions on how they should handle their own healing: potions/scrolls/wands. Perhaps one of them will want to reroll a healing character.
Kaurus 07-06-07, 02:00 PM	Harass the rest of the party into taking Leadership at level 9, and get cohorts either to be healbots, cannon fodder, or both. Cohorts: Very good idea, if nobody wants to heal all the time, let some NPC, who likes being a auto-healkit, do the job (as long as the DM thinks a normal sentient person would stay with his leader though he treats him that way). Gently remind your party that Kord doesn't heal crybabies. Right, because this is roleplaying ! Did the other characters ever attend one of Kords services ? Did any of them pray to him after you used the spells he granted to you to heal them faster then they would on their own ? Verybody con mitigate damage ! Get some rest an the next day you will be much better ! Tell your party to figure out ways to stop dying so fast. If your party is getting members mauled/mutilated/KO'd/crippled every fight, either you're using bad tactics or the DM isn't accounting for your level of (non)optimization. Maybe that is part of the problem too. If your DM is very good at tactics and likes "winning" battles (which is ok for me) and your fellow players suck when it comes to recognising threats they have to practice (or play some other game where the DM guy can really win without killing someones charcter). In response to OTWoTPK's statements concerning the rogue's feat, I would like to amend the advance that I gave earlier. Although I still suggest retraining Improved Feint and Combat Expertise, if the rogue intended to use those feats to mitigate his weaknesses in melee, that's a perfectly good strategy as well. I play a halfling rouge at the moment who is also a Master Thrower (to be able to use SA at a distance), but he does not have Improved Feint or Combat Expertise. I might take Combat Expertise some day, but only to soup up my AC ! In order to be a also a good meele Sneak Attacker I took Weapon Finesse, which is way more important to have as a meele oriented rouge (ecspecially if you have Combat Expertise). To boost AC you can get 5 ranks in tumbling and trade 4 to Hit for 3 AC ! But ok, I talked about roleplaying and it´s ok if the rouge wants to be a Bluffer and not a Circus guy (which my character is [tumble, sleight of hands, balance, Master Thrower]), but his Player should allow you to play a faithfull servant of Kord, not a Healer of "sissies" who took bad choices. (what are ranged weapons without appropriate PrCs good for, when it comes to SA ???) First, a god of strength who espouses physical prowess? Not uncommon to have such a character press the "pure" aspect of wrestling. It's as much a symbol of strength as anything. Kudos on the roleplaying aspect, even if it's not the MOST effective character build. You've got the spells to pump yourself up in melee, which is good. I'd also consider, however, keeping a small stock of healing spells on hand, to handle emergencies and the like. Dispel Magic and Protection from evil, and the like. There are party solutions for HP damage. Dispel needs a good check. Prot Evil will protect from possession, etc. Basically, have some of the nonstandard stuff, or spells that really shine when cast by a caster, rather than wand-spammed. Otherwise, fill that void in the melee. Also, keep in mind with that rogue... Just cause people are in the melee with him, does not mean there will be flanking opportunities. They're not horrible feats to choose. Maybe not the best, but certainly not horrible.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-06-07, 04:22 PM	I'd like to point out that there is another thread in this forum (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=879792) with a player whose DM and a fellow PC are angry with him because he is too good at healing. Maybe you should trade groups with him? :P I just think it's funny that two people would have the opposite problem at about the same time...one who really wants to be a healer and isn't allowed to ("Stop healing us, it takes away the challenge!"), and one who wants to be an individual but is forced into a stereotype ("Yo, Band-Aid boy, over here!")
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-06-07, 06:13 PM	Right, because this is roleplaying ! Did the other characters ever attend one of Kords services ? Did any of them pray to him after you used the spells he granted to you to heal them faster then they would on their own ? Cleric, "hey gang you guys are weak in Kords eyes. he won't heal you anymore. You'll just have to accompany me to my church, and convert. then when that done we'll hit the gym and I'll pump you up. hey and then I'll get to show off. Team, "Sorry there budy, but we hired you to act as a healer. If you don't want to do that, then we really have no use for you. Oh and this conversiontalk is starting to get a bit offensive. Its cool that you think Kord is *****en and all, but we prefer to maintain our own faiths. Thank you." Cleric, "But I'm good at bustin heads, and i love this fight'n stuff." Team, "Thats nice, but we already have two poeple who are good at. heck that swordsage of ours, he's pretty much all we need. And the warlock over there, his purple blasts of doom pretty much seal it." Cleric, "But I can be great in melee too. hell i could even do it better then this chump." team, "Probally, but when your casting all your buffs, then your not casting your heals. And that leaves us in a bad spot. We prefer to work as a team." Cleric, "but...." Team, "sorry. Hey guys lets go over to the church of Pelor, see if they have a less whiny cleric there, who knows what it means to be a team player." How effective is the hockey team that is all forwards, and no goal tender. Sure all most of the action is out of net, and the goalie only gets to shine when everyone else ****s up. But its vital none the less, and hey someones gotta do it. Now I understand that you don't want to cast healing all the time. And the arguments about it being Kordly and all to boost yourself for strength and charge are sound. But what I'm saying is that someone should be the team heal bot. And right now that someone is you, because you are the best person for the job. Now there are a couple of things that can be done to spread the role out. Allowing you to do other things. 1) get the rogue and warlock to max out ranks in UMD. That way they can do minor healings from wands. However you'll still be needed after a lucky crit, or to bring someone up form the negatives. 2) get them to buy items of resistance to improve there saves. This won't stop everything, and you auto have the restoration ready when needed. On top of that have you thought of Mass conviction + triad spell? (there both in SP. The other thing you could do is to ask your DM if he would be already with you picking up a level of monk. At worst you can use it for improved unarmed strike, and imporved grapple. Thus allowing you to pick up two extra feats. i recomend either Quicken, and DMM quicken, or extend and persistent spell, then ditch shock trooper for DMM persistent. DMM quicken would let you fire off a couple of buffs in combat, say one mass conviction to up their saves, and then Divine strength for you. Alternatively you could use DMM persistent spell, to have a 24 divine strength on yourself, and thus saving spell slots for a few heals, and other niceties like flame strike. You shouldn't have to always have to heal all the time. But they should also be able to count on you when the rain comes down. Its all about balance. If you can play the puck with out leaving your net open then go for it... but the forwards are there for reason too.
Metafictional 07-06-07, 07:47 PM	Ok, several of you have offered the optimized build-fix of a dip into Monk. From a mechanics standpoint, this makes perfect sense. Except for one little rp-oriented detail. He's a Cleric of KORD! Kord, the Chaotic Good God of Physical Prowess, Strength, Parties, and Smashing! For him to do this, he'd have to go Lawful Good, get Monk 1, then have an epiphany to make him go Neutral Good (because Lawful ain't Kord!) so he can be a Cleric. Possible? Yes. Does it make sense for his character? Probably not.
Salla 07-06-07, 08:13 PM	Ok, several of you have offered the optimized build-fix of a dip into Monk. From a mechanics standpoint, this makes perfect sense. Except for one little rp-oriented detail. He's a Cleric of KORD! Kord, the Chaotic Good God of Physical Prowess, Strength, Parties, and Smashing! For him to do this, he'd have to go Lawful Good, get Monk 1, then have an epiphany to make him go Neutral Good (because Lawful ain't Kord!) so he can be a Cleric. Possible? Yes. Does it make sense for his character? Probably not. I actually think the Monk's alignment restriction is the part that doesn't make sense, but that's me. :)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-06-07, 10:40 PM	Ok, several of you have offered the optimized build-fix of a dip into Monk. From a mechanics standpoint, this makes perfect sense. Except for one little rp-oriented detail. He's a Cleric of KORD! Kord, the Chaotic Good God of Physical Prowess, Strength, Parties, and Smashing! For him to do this, he'd have to go Lawful Good, get Monk 1, then have an epiphany to make him go Neutral Good (because Lawful ain't Kord!) so he can be a Cleric. Possible? Yes. Does it make sense for his character? Probably not. Hmm martial artist who favors his own physical strength over that of a manufactured weapon? Nope then think Kords ideals of strength are stupid. why couldn't he go neutral? Maybe adventuring tuaght him to be more practical then lawful. Also I agree with Salla the monks alignemnt restriction is stupid. I never enforce it as a DM. It just kinda one of those things that I forgot they had.
Kaurus 07-07-07, 08:46 AM	Hmm martial artist who favors his own physical strength over that of a manufactured weapon? There I think I have a different opinion from yours ! IMHO a monk favors spiritual strenght over physical strength ! And I wouldn´t say that they do not like weapons, they use them to have more options (better chance to trip, disarm or to throw them) and use special magical enhancements (bane / beat DR, poison effetcs or disruption etc.). And weapons do not interfere with a monks ability to use unarmed strikes as they can use knees, feet, elbow. "This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full." (SRD) Nope then think Kords ideals of strength are stupid. why couldn't he go neutral? Maybe adventuring tuaght him to be more practical then lawful. Also I agree with Salla the monks alignemnt restriction is stupid. I never enforce it as a DM. It just kinda one of those things that I forgot they had. As a player I sure would like to forget the alignment restriction too, but have you ever seen an Eastern where the chaotic and undisciplined martial artist wannabe atains true perfection ? Even the antagonistic and envious killertype (read evil) opponent has to abide rules, meditate and focus his inner strenght ! (same thing for jedi masters ;)). So as a DM I would enforce these restrictions (alltough as a player I´d like to be a munchkin [babarian / monk ? sounds interesting :plotting:])
buzzsawl 07-07-07, 08:54 AM	As a player I sure would like to forget the alignment restriction too, but have you ever seen an Eastern where the chaotic and undisciplined martial artist wannabe atains true perfection ? Even the antagonistic and envious killertype (read evil) opponent has to abide rules, meditate and focus his inner strenght ! (same thing for jedi masters ;)). Catholic Monks...sure lawful all the way. Kung Fu Monks are so balancey though. Seem alot more like neutral. They must embrace both the strength of earth and the fury of the fire before they can begin to kick ass.
Sunic_Flames 07-07-07, 11:13 AM	...I don't get it. Wand of Lesser Vigor/Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Healing Belt = 750 gp each, easily affordable by level 3 and possible at 2 with gold pooling. Amulet of Tears = 2,300 gp each, affordable around 6, 1-2 levels sooner with gold pooling. Scrolls and potions are available from level 1. Now you only need to heal in emergencies until higher levels when you have enough spells for it to not matter. Not like you need to heal in combat if you don't think you can't last one more round... :rolleyes: No sane adventurer would not be somewhat self sufficent. Even if he had a healbot cleric, what happens when said cleric is grappled, or KOed, or otherwise unable to get into reach and cast a spell? Exactly!
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-07-07, 04:23 PM	How effective is the hockey team that is all forwards, and no goal tender. Sure all most of the action is out of net, and the goalie only gets to shine when everyone else ****s up. But its vital none the less, and hey someones gotta do it. I knew the team-sports analogy would come up eventually. The problem is, D&D is not a competitive sport. You're not required to play "goalie" or any other "position" or role. If they really need a healer that badly, either: a) They should buy healing items, or b) The DM should take into account the lack of a focused healer and adjust encounters accordingly. Look at it this way. If for some reason, the party was really in need of flying magic, the wizard shouldn't be required to prep 4 fly spells every day (or burn feats on brew potion or CWI, etc.) Instead, the party should go buy potions or boots of flying, or the DM should adjust his scenarios so that flying isn't constantly required. D&D is about having fun, people. Not performing a role because you have to. I saw OtWoTPK say something like "Someone needs to be the party healbot..." No one needs to be anything, except to be having a good time.
RainerNader 07-07-07, 04:48 PM	Hey guys, Thanks for the great suggestions about magic items the party can use, I've sent an e-mail suggesting that we look into using our various merchant contacts we've acquired so far into buying things like Healing Belts and Amulet of Tears, so that should spread out the burden a little more. As for the level in monk, it may have been a great idea in the very beginning of my character's creation (maybe he was raised in a monastery as a child), but the dip into monk now wouldn't make much sense even if the alignment restriction was waived by my DM. Plus I hate losing caster levels. ;) I also sent a friendly e-mail to the rogue's player and suggested retraining Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, and he was cool with that. In fact he said he's wanted make his character a little 'hardier' for awhile, so he spoke to our DM and apparently he's going to switch things around a little bit to enter the Order of the Bow Initiate class. So that's good!
Sunic_Flames 07-07-07, 05:05 PM	One more thing. By the DMG an item that goes in a different body slot costs 50% more. An item that doesn't take a slot at all costs 100% more. As they're cheap, this provides an option for getting some use out of these while still being able to use the amulet and belt slots for other things.
Leo 07-07-07, 06:05 PM	One more thing. By the DMG an item that goes in a different body slot costs 50% more. An item that doesn't take a slot at all costs 100% more. As they're cheap, this provides an option for getting some use out of these while still being able to use the amulet and belt slots for other things. The rules for creating custom items are kinda broken. For example, by the rules you can create an item that gives you permanent true strike for a cheap 2000 GP. But an item that gives you +20 to hit in all your attacks all day llong for 2000 gp would be simply absurd for any combat guy. You would never miss again against any enemy of your CR, and you could buy it pretty low level, around lv 4 or 5, maybe even 3.
Salla 07-07-07, 06:14 PM	The rules for creating custom items are kinda broken. For example, by the rules you can create an item that gives you permanent true strike for a cheap 2000 GP. . No, they don't. Such an item would let you *cast* True Strike, operating under all the limitations thereof (standard action, applies for one round, only applies to the next attack you make).
Sunic_Flames 07-07-07, 06:20 PM	The rules for creating custom items are kinda broken. For example, by the rules you can create an item that gives you permanent true strike for a cheap 2000 GP. But an item that gives you +20 to hit in all your attacks all day llong for 2000 gp would be simply absurd for any combat guy. You would never miss again against any enemy of your CR, and you could buy it pretty low level, around lv 4 or 5, maybe even 3. Except you aren't making a new item, you're altering an existing one into a different form while still having the same effect. Also, I think there actually is a published x/day true strike item somewhere... Yeah, I dunno either.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-07-07, 07:09 PM	No, they don't. Such an item would let you *cast* True Strike, operating under all the limitations thereof (standard action, applies for one round, only applies to the next attack you make). Thats still pretty nasty. hit every second round...well it make power attack more useful anyways....
Thubby 07-07-07, 08:20 PM	Thats still pretty nasty. hit every second round...well it make power attack more useful anyways.... thats not all that bad if you think about it. lets say a 5th level fighter has one. he goes cast and attack every round, with full pwr atk and a 2 handed weapon. so thats 2d6+1.5xstrmod+10. where a normal fighter would do 2(2d6+1.5xstrmod) because he attacks twice as much as the fighter with the item. assuming a modest strength, the normal fighter will average more damage, but hit less, where the one with the item will hit almost always but do less. the fighter with the item will be a bit better off (at least until multiple attacks get involved), but he has a magic item, he should have the advantage
Leo 07-07-07, 09:25 PM	The DMG says that an item that replicates a spell in a continuous manner costs 2000x spell levelx caster level. They give as example a lantern of revealing, wich replicates invisibility purge. Permanently. You don't need to activate it, the invisibility purge is always active. Thus, I could make an 2000 item that permanently casted true strike on me. And even if it's use activated, snipers and sneaky characters would love it.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 07-07-07, 11:48 PM	The DMG says that an item that replicates a spell in a continuous manner costs 2000x spell levelx caster level. They give as example a lantern of revealing, wich replicates invisibility purge. Permanently. You don't need to activate it, the invisibility purge is always active. Thus, I could make an 2000 item that permanently casted true strike on me. And even if it's use activated, snipers and sneaky characters would love it. Not quiet there are multiplers attached to that depending on the duration of the spell. If the duration is measured in rounds then the cost is multiplied by 4. So our a ring of shield would be 8,000gp. I'm not sure if true strike would work for this as it has no duration....
Leo 07-08-07, 01:56 PM	Not quiet there are multiplers attached to that depending on the duration of the spell. If the duration is measured in rounds then the cost is multiplied by 4. So our a ring of shield would be 8,000gp. I'm not sure if true strike would work for this as it has no duration.... Yeah, the buff that isn't a buff, stupid holes in the rules. Still, if it costs 8000 it can be crafted with 4000, wich means I can still ask the party's wizard to make me one around level 5-7.
Genetic 07-08-07, 04:58 PM	And then there's that whole thing about those price rules being a last resort when you can find no other items of comparable power for pricing your new item... Any DM who lets a continuous truestrike item into their game at 4000-8000 gold is insane. :P
Kaurus 07-09-07, 05:23 PM	Sorry guys I can´t tell you exactly where it is (in the DMG), but I remember reading an example dealing with Treu Strike and magic items in there and it was NOT cheap (think it was over 100,000 gp) !!! The argument was something like "take a look into the tables dealing with boni to attribute etc. and then use the other price modifiers" . . . but even if I find this part in the DMG (I´ll have to look it up in a friends one as I don´t own one), I´m not quite sure it is OGL. But if you want to have an Impression how skill boni are priced, take a look at the SRD: Jumping: This ring continually allows the wearer to leap about, providing a +5 competence bonus on all his Jump checks. Faint transmutation; CL 2nd; Forge Ring, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 2,500 gp. Jumping, Improved: As jumping, except it grants a +10 competence bonus on its wearer’s Jump check. Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, creator must have 10 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 10,000 gp. = > +5 -> (5 x 5) x 100 , +10 -> (10 x 10) x 100 so even IF +20 to hit would be priced like +20 to balance etc. it would cost 40,000 gp (and because it is more like a +20 to an attribute [price maybe divided by 5 because it doesn´t help with skills and damage]) you can take a look at gloves of dexterity and you can easily estimate a cost of (20 x 20 ) x 1000 = > 400,000 / 5 = 80,000 and even this price would be very generous . . . Gloves of Dexterity: These thin leather gloves are very flexible and allow for delicate manipulation. They add to the wearer’s Dexterity score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, cat’s grace; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6). So, you can´t just use the mechanics given for items that allow you to cast a spell as often as you like to calculate the price of this wonderous ring of "truestriking" (there is some x50 for having endless charges and some for not having to be able to cast ect.). So grab a DMG and read ;)
Merestil Haye 07-09-07, 07:26 PM	The DMG says that an item that replicates a spell in a continuous manner costs 2000x spell levelx caster level.No, it does not. It says that you start by trying to find an item that does the same thing, and price accordingly. How much do bracers of continuous Mage Armour cost? They cost sixteen thousand gold, not the two thousand your argument suggests. Why? Because the power of these Bracers is that they give a continuous +4 armour bonus to AC that apply against regular and incorporeal touch attacks. If there is a formula in the DMG for calculating the price based on an effect, you use that. This makes a ring of True Strike an epic item (anything which gives a bonus - of any type - of over +5 on attack rolls is epic). The full rules for pricing custom magic items are : Two things that do the same thing have the same base price. If there is an existing comparable item, you can use the existing item to price the custom item. If there is a scaling formula, such as for Bracers of Armour, you can use that. If all else fails, use the spell level * caster level formula (with the appropriate cost multiplier). Compare the calculated price against the wealth-by-level guidelines to determine what level of play the resulting item is pitched at. Adjust the price f the item is too powerful or too weak.