Illusion spells and disbelief [Archive] - Wizards Community

Illusion spells and disbelief [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lacloix
06-20-05, 03:47 PM I've been reading up on illusion spells (particularly the image spells) and am still a bit fuzzy on how they function and how disbelief comes into play.

For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature. But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not.

Also, what about something like permanent image? Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)? And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing?

Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)?

Can anyone who uses illusions explain to me how it works for them (minus any house rules, obviously)?
Bloodtide_the_Red
06-20-05, 10:51 PM 1.For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature.
Not true. While touching an illusion will show it's false, you can do it by sight alone. You can't do it with a glance or just looking at an illusion, but you do get the save disbelief if you study the illusion. You have to stop and do it though.
If there were two treasure chests, one real and one illusion, you don't get a save for just walking in the room. If you stand near the illusion chest, and look at it carefully, you'd get the save.
Many DM's always give a save the first time you encounter an illusion, but that is a house rule.

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2.But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not.
Hearing an illusionary sound is 'interacting' with it, the same way you'd interact with a illusionary monster attacking you.

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3.Also, what about something like permanent image... Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)?
Yes, as a translucent outline, to the ones that make their save or do the poking. It stays 'just like real' to all others, except they do gain a +4 to thier save.
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4.And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing?
Nothing. Even if you make your save and the illusion becomes a translucent outline to you, you don't know for sure that it's an illusion. It's a realy good guess on your part, but you can't be sure. The only way to know for sure is to make a Spellcraft check.
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5.Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)?
The rules are not exactly clear here. It can't be just ONE object/creature/force though. A simple orc would be one creature with something like a dozen objects(couple weapons, clothing, armor, ect). The same way a cottage(use as an example in the PH) has dozens of 'objects' part of it.
In general, you get 'one illusion'. And you get to pick what you want from there. I see two choices

1.The illusion is semi-static once made. You could make a house full of folks, and have them move around and eat...but they can't leave the 'house' because that's the limit of the illusion. You can change the illusion slightly, they could 'bleed' if hit, but not change them into something else. The house can't suddenly become a dragon.
2.You can do as you wish. With in the limits of the range you can make any illusion you wish, change it as you wish and realy do as you wish.

BT
Nom
06-21-05, 09:13 AM I disagree slightly with bloodtide...
For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature.A character that either studies an illusion carefully or "interacts" with it gets a Will (disbelief) save. A character that conclusively proves something is an illusion automatically saves. A single poke would count as interacting or studying (you think your hand went through the wall, but that can't be right). A few rounds of such activity provides proof (PH pg 174). As an easy mechanic, I'd grant a +4 to the Will save each round after the first (but don't tell the PC you are doing so - in fact, I'd advise rolling the save in secret).
But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not.Hearing it wouldn't in and of itself count as interacting. Spending a few rounds listening carefully or trying to find the source and not being able to would.
Also, what about something like permanent image? Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)? And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing?I'll deal with the latter first - that is why a single poke only counts as interacting, not as auto-success.

Sceptical player: I push against the wall.
DM: Yep, it's a wall.
Sceptical player: I put my full weight against the wall.
DM: You fall over, through the wall.

As to what happens? Well, the rules allow you to see through the illusion, seeing both the illusion and the real thing. This fits with some source materials (mainly B-grade movies) and works somewhat better for game balance (you can't make a room permanently dark by filling it with an illusion of stone), but does make something of a nonsense of figments creating actual false sensations. If a successful Will save can make the sensation fade for you, then it must be subjective rather than objective, even though the rules state otherwise (PH pg 173).
Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)?It is clear from silent image that it allows creation of an image of a single thing. In the rules, "creature" usually includes any equipment possessed by the creature. Likewise, I'd allow an illusiory object to be "a pile of coins", "a furnished bed", or any similar image that a casual observer could consider a thing.

Changing an area is probably more a function of hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana.

Side point: from my reading of illusory wall, it (unlike normal figments) does not become see-through when interaced with, but remains opaque.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lacloix 06-20-05, 03:47 PM	I've been reading up on illusion spells (particularly the image spells) and am still a bit fuzzy on how they function and how disbelief comes into play. For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature. But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not. Also, what about something like permanent image? Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)? And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing? Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)? Can anyone who uses illusions explain to me how it works for them (minus any house rules, obviously)?
Bloodtide_the_Red 06-20-05, 10:51 PM	1.For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature. Not true. While touching an illusion will show it's false, you can do it by sight alone. You can't do it with a glance or just looking at an illusion, but you do get the save disbelief if you study the illusion. You have to stop and do it though. If there were two treasure chests, one real and one illusion, you don't get a save for just walking in the room. If you stand near the illusion chest, and look at it carefully, you'd get the save. Many DM's always give a save the first time you encounter an illusion, but that is a house rule. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not. Hearing an illusionary sound is 'interacting' with it, the same way you'd interact with a illusionary monster attacking you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.Also, what about something like permanent image... Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)? Yes, as a translucent outline, to the ones that make their save or do the poking. It stays 'just like real' to all others, except they do gain a +4 to thier save. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing? Nothing. Even if you make your save and the illusion becomes a translucent outline to you, you don't know for sure that it's an illusion. It's a realy good guess on your part, but you can't be sure. The only way to know for sure is to make a Spellcraft check. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5.Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)? The rules are not exactly clear here. It can't be just ONE object/creature/force though. A simple orc would be one creature with something like a dozen objects(couple weapons, clothing, armor, ect). The same way a cottage(use as an example in the PH) has dozens of 'objects' part of it. In general, you get 'one illusion'. And you get to pick what you want from there. I see two choices 1.The illusion is semi-static once made. You could make a house full of folks, and have them move around and eat...but they can't leave the 'house' because that's the limit of the illusion. You can change the illusion slightly, they could 'bleed' if hit, but not change them into something else. The house can't suddenly become a dragon. 2.You can do as you wish. With in the limits of the range you can make any illusion you wish, change it as you wish and realy do as you wish. BT
Nom 06-21-05, 09:13 AM	I disagree slightly with bloodtide... For the visuals, I think I understand. If a character "pokes" an illusion, he can see it for what he is. Therefore, it seems that illusions rely on tactile examination to determine their nature.A character that either studies an illusion carefully or "interacts" with it gets a Will (disbelief) save. A character that conclusively proves something is an illusion automatically saves. A single poke would count as interacting or studying (you think your hand went through the wall, but that can't be right). A few rounds of such activity provides proof (PH pg 174). As an easy mechanic, I'd grant a +4 to the Will save each round after the first (but don't tell the PC you are doing so - in fact, I'd advise rolling the save in secret). But what about ghost sound? You can't touch sound, and depending on the sound and placement, there may be no way to tell if it's real or not.Hearing it wouldn't in and of itself count as interacting. Spending a few rounds listening carefully or trying to find the source and not being able to would. Also, what about something like permanent image? Is it still in effect after being "poked" (considering it's permanent)? And what is to keep a player from thinking that it is not an illusion, but an ethereal/ghostly/whatever creature/thing?I'll deal with the latter first - that is why a single poke only counts as interacting, not as auto-success. Sceptical player: I push against the wall. DM: Yep, it's a wall. Sceptical player: I put my full weight against the wall. DM: You fall over, through the wall. As to what happens? Well, the rules allow you to see through the illusion, seeing both the illusion and the real thing. This fits with some source materials (mainly B-grade movies) and works somewhat better for game balance (you can't make a room permanently dark by filling it with an illusion of stone), but does make something of a nonsense of figments creating actual false sensations. If a successful Will save can make the sensation fade for you, then it must be subjective rather than objective, even though the rules state otherwise (PH pg 173). Lastly, do the image spells only let me create one illusory object, or as many objects as I want in the area of effect? So could I use minor image to furnish a room and put a couple occupants in it (as long as it's in the AoE)?It is clear from silent image that it allows creation of an image of a single thing. In the rules, "creature" usually includes any equipment possessed by the creature. Likewise, I'd allow an illusiory object to be "a pile of coins", "a furnished bed", or any similar image that a casual observer could consider a thing. Changing an area is probably more a function of hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana. Side point: from my reading of illusory wall, it (unlike normal figments) does not become see-through when interaced with, but remains opaque.