Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Save-vs-DM 03-02-05, 10:42 PM	Right - so my DM throws this riddle at my character that I have to answer to continue forward - there is no other way. This is the riddle. Why should I help you? That's it. I'm totally stumped. Claims he learned it at a con. Can anyone help me! Cheers, Save vs DM
ShadowDragon8685 03-02-05, 10:48 PM	"Why shoulden't you?"
Save-vs-DM 03-02-05, 10:55 PM	I already guessed that answer. It was incorrect. Cheers, Save vs DM
yeknom 03-02-05, 11:00 PM	Is there anyone in your group who has a character with a fair to high Int or Wis? Or maybe there is someone with some sort of knowledge skill that might be helpful. I suggest asking your DM if your character (or a different character in the group) could make an Int or Wis or skill check to see if they might know the answer. If your DM refuses then he isn't being fair. Not everyone knows the answer to the riddles that can be used and while it is fun to challenge your players a DM should not try to outwit the player characters. I don't think anyone on the board should give you an answer until you have tried to solve the riddle using your own wits and/or game mechanics.
Bringslite 03-02-05, 11:03 PM	Did you try: So that I may continue my quest. I do not know. Because I need your help. You shouldn't. Because you like me. :)
Maniacal_Cackle 03-02-05, 11:06 PM	Could you give us more context? Who's in your party, who's asking the question, what are you attempting to achieve, etc? Oh, and if push comes to shove, if the objective isn't too important, you could always go on another quest, you don't always have to suceed...
Save-vs-DM 03-02-05, 11:13 PM	Well, at this point it really doesn't matter. I sent an email off with my best guess. It was the wrong answer. And for a small recap. Me: Human Rogue (12 int, my hint was "It's a short answer) Half-Elf Sorcerer Dwarf Fighter (11 Int) Human Cleric (15 Wis) We had to answer this riddle to get past a sphinx. We are all about level 3. We each got an answer through email. We have been asking oursleves for weeks. We all answered: we all failed. The Sphinx killed us. End of story. *shrug* Oh, for the record the answer is "Because I can." Been wanting to try a warmage anyway.... Thanks for the help! Save-vs-DM
Nardo Polo 03-02-05, 11:15 PM	Nevermind....rendered obsolete by previous post.
MadScientist!! 03-02-05, 11:20 PM	He was trying to kill you? :confused:
speeblefreak 03-02-05, 11:50 PM	A level 3 party...against a sphinx...that has given them a riddle they could not reasonably solve... Here are the steps you need to take: 1. Get a shovel. 2. Hit your DM over the head with the shovel. 3. Repeat step 2 for twenty minutes. 4. Dump the body in the nearest swamp. 5. Find a DM who knows what he's doing, as this one obviously doesn't understand either the concept of "fair encounter," or the concept of "TPKs are not your goal," or both. :rant:
DM Denubis 03-02-05, 11:57 PM	Wait a second. First, ask him if he knows what he did wrong. If he says "No," or "I sent a weak party against something that wasn't a rat," beat him with a shovel. Don't bury him in a swamp, because he'll float. Try a construction area.
Thorak 03-03-05, 12:01 AM	Your DM's a ****, frankly. Your answer, "Why shouldn't you?", is perfectly valid. It might not have been the expected answer, but that doesn't mean it doesn't answer the riddle that's been posed. It's like an often-quoted riddle that was meant to be unsolvable, first published in Alice in Wonderland in the Tea Party scene; "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" Alice doesn't have a clue, and it turns out the others don't either. It was intended as a bit on nonsense without an answer. However, puzzle nuts came up with solutions. My favorite; "Because Poe wrote on both." Others I've found with a quick Google; "Because both come with inky quills", "because neither is like a bicycle". My point being, if a sphinx asked you "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" and didn't think there was an answer, and you came up with any of the above, the beast should be amazed, and start laughing it's head off. It set you a challenge it thought had no solution, and you bested it. Unless it had some bigger reason to kill you, and it was just toying with you, it would admit you'd bested it at riddling. In the same way, your answer answered the Sphinx' riddle. Your DM is being ridiculous in insisting you get the one answer he wants, rather than any answer which works. If his riddle is so loose there's multiple answers, that's the riddler's fault, not the answerer's.
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 12:31 AM	Shoot your DM. In the Face. With. A. Hammer. Do not stop until he is bleeding and mewling miserably. Then ask him just what the hell he thought he was doing, putting that kind of a challenge before three level three characters. If he cannot come up with a satisfactory answer, continue with the hammer-shooting.
Reinforcements 03-03-05, 12:44 AM	The correct answer is, of course, "Because **** you." Seriously. If they answer turns out to be anything other than, "It was supposed to be unsolvable," your DM sucks at riddles. If it was me, I wouldn't put up with this "riddle that isn't really a riddle"crap.
DrMorganes 03-03-05, 01:15 AM	In case any budding DMs happen to be reading this topic: It's generally considered VERY bad form to simply present players with a riddle and insist THEY (the players) come up with the answer before the game can continue. Riddles are a neat flavor to toss in every now and again, but they shouldn't be game breakers. A DM should always (read that last bit again - it's important) have a way to either circumvent the riddle, acquire the information its guarding in a different manner, or allow the CHARACTERS a WIS or INT check to come up with the answer. This doesn't mean you have to tell the players the answer; that would ruin a perfectly good riddle. Rather, it gives a chance to move the game forward without your players posting topics like this one.
Phrennzy 03-03-05, 01:19 AM	Your DM's a ****, frankly. Your answer, "Why shouldn't you?", is perfectly valid. It might not have been the expected answer, but that doesn't mean it doesn't answer the riddle that's been posed. It's like an often-quoted riddle that was meant to be unsolvable, first published in Alice in Wonderland in the Tea Party scene; "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" Alice doesn't have a clue, and it turns out the others don't either. It was intended as a bit on nonsense without an answer. However, puzzle nuts came up with solutions. My favorite; "Because Poe wrote on both." Others I've found with a quick Google; "Because both come with inky quills", "because neither is like a bicycle". My point being, if a sphinx asked you "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" and didn't think there was an answer, and you came up with any of the above, the beast should be amazed, and start laughing it's head off. It set you a challenge it thought had no solution, and you bested it. Unless it had some bigger reason to kill you, and it was just toying with you, it would admit you'd bested it at riddling. In the same way, your answer answered the Sphinx' riddle. Your DM is being ridiculous in insisting you get the one answer he wants, rather than any answer which works. If his riddle is so loose there's multiple answers, that's the riddler's fault, not the answerer's. Look out, he's stark raven mad!"
Kursk 03-03-05, 01:48 AM	Don't metagame. Learn to role play... :blink:
CapnSwashbuckler 03-03-05, 01:59 AM	Well, at this point it really doesn't matter. I sent an email off with my best guess. It was the wrong answer. And for a small recap. Me: Human Rogue (12 int, my hint was "It's a short answer) Half-Elf Sorcerer Dwarf Fighter (11 Int) Human Cleric (15 Wis) We had to answer this riddle to get past a sphinx. We are all about level 3. We each got an answer through email. We have been asking oursleves for weeks. We all answered: we all failed. The Sphinx killed us. End of story. *shrug* Oh, for the record the answer is "Because I can." Been wanting to try a warmage anyway.... Thanks for the help! Save-vs-DM That really, really sucks. With the hint he gave you it's basically a shot in the dark - I don't imagine anyone else got a better hint. That is just ridiculously weak. If you're going to use a deathtrap or something like that, there have to be multiple ways around it. Unless you expect the party to die. Was this like a grudge-monster or something?
quintus 03-03-05, 02:00 AM	Don't metagame. Learn to role play... :blink: So what side are you on, then? The way I see it, making players answer riddles is essentially *forcing* metagaming. Just because a player can or can't figure out the answer doesn't mean that their character could/couldn't. I've seen bright players playing characters with an 8 INT rattle off the answers to complex riddles like nothing. I've also seen "riddle-challenged" players with 18 INT characters stopped in their tracks because they couldn't figure out a riddle. As a player, it's certainly satisfying to figure out a riddle, but whether or not the player can figure out the riddle shouldn't have any bearing on the game. Give the players a chance to figure it out just for fun, but let an INT/WIS roll determine whether or not they are actually successful. And to echo the general sentiment on this thread, your DM is a putz.
JadeSpider9643 03-03-05, 04:02 AM	Shoot your DM. In the Face. With. A. Hammer. Do not stop until he is bleeding and mewling miserably. Then ask him just what the hell he thought he was doing, putting that kind of a challenge before three level three characters. If he cannot come up with a satisfactory answer, continue with the hammer-shooting. DAMN STRAIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vharuck 03-03-05, 08:53 AM	Ok, I don't like how either side went about this. The DM was a jerk, but that's been reiterated again and again so I'll leave that. The player, well. Let me put it this way: if he were my player, I would be dissappointed and angry. If I give a player a riddle to solve or a new monster, I don't want him scurrying off to the boards and begging for somebody else to solve the riddle or find the monster's weakness for him. That's metagaming, and really, really low.
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 09:06 AM	Welcome to the wonderful age of the internet, Vharuck. Because, you see, it's not like a DM coulden't EVER put an nigh-impossible monster or an impossibly complicated riddle in front of the player. Especially if the player is, like me, severely riddle-challenged. You see, not every adventuring party has a Frodo to upstage the ancient, wise and inteligent wizard on the riddle-solving. In fact, some of us absoloutly HATE riddles. I came to play D&D, a game that involves dice rolling and roleplaying. I came to roll some damn dice, and interact with some NPCs and my fellow PCs, preferably those who are members of attractive races with decent to high charisma scores and of the female gender. I did not come for a lesson in frustration at the hands of a riddle-popping sphynx, orfor a TPK because we suck at riddles. Ergo, I will turn to help, because this is frustrating me to tears, and I'm terrified for my character. At this point, I don't CARE if you consider it metagaming or not. I just want my character out of this nightmare situation, and back to where I can do something fun, like smite up some orcs, or chat up an elven princess.
Thoronmir 03-03-05, 09:34 AM	Does anyone out there really consider this “riddle” an actual riddle? It ranks with “Guess what’s in my pocket” … without any additional clues. It’s no more a “riddle” than “Pick a number between 1 and 100.” A riddle ought to be a test of knowledge, deductive ability, and/or reasoning. It ought not to be a test of reading the riddler’s mind. DMs who don’t understand riddles ought to stick to puzzle traps. That said, I’d be peeved if my players sought a riddle’s solution on the internet. Just as I’d be disappointed if they sought out any other metagaming information on the net (e.g., the “What are we fighting” and “How do I beat [insert monster]” threads). Shadow, I trust that you would at least confess that you found the solution on the internet so the DM knows not to award the party any XP for solving the riddle.
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 11:00 AM	That I would not do. Because most DMs will not only dock all XP, they will either deduct XP, or retrocon the riddle answer and say I didn't answer it properly, and kill us. Besides, I'm Chaotic like that. If a DM is going to throw something that grossly unfair and horrible at me, I'll do anything to get past it. That's not a fair challenge, and it's not fun. Therefor I am going to fine the DM, and the fine occurs quietly in the form of whatever XP he gave us, if any.
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 11:04 AM	[Alternate way to look at it] Riddle tests that the DM insist be resolved by the players and not the characters - it's not a roleplaying situation. It's not even a dice scenario. The DM is essentially quizzing the PLAYER'S knowledge and ability, and he intends to reward us with an in-game reward (XP/treasure) if we pass his little sadistic test, or to PUNISH us with in-game violence if we fail. This is a test of my knowledge and my ability, not a test of that of Nazira, my hypothetical drowish wizardess. (CG, of course.) Therefor, since he is testing my own abilities - www.yahoo.com is one of my abilities. I am going to use it to the fullest of my advantage.
Callista 03-03-05, 11:40 AM	Oh well... Riddles are cool, but they should be easy-ish. Especially when, as in my situation, the only one who can solve them is playing an INT 9 Barbarian and has to make up a story about solving riddles with Daddy when she was a kid, to get around the constant Intelligence checks she has to make whenever she comes up with an answer the rest of the party, including the Wizard, can't figure out... (Just a note, by the way--I still haven't circumvented the INT checks, despite tweaking my backstory. *sigh*)
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 11:45 AM	Are riddles really a function of Inteligence, or Wisdom? I mean, lots of professors won't be able to do riddles with you, but the aged black janitor is probably the guy to go to if you're stuck on one. I know that may be sterotyping, but I think this is at least a good sterotype? I mean, really. It's old guys like that that you wanna talk to. An air-headed professor can teach you book learning, but that's not going to solve riddles unless he's a Ph.D. in something like mythology. Whereas the streetwise old black man who grew up in Pittsburg or somewhere, he may not be able to do college level algebra, but he knows a thing or two. Maybe riddles should be a function of wisdom?
eRaz0r 03-03-05, 12:41 PM	So what side are you on, then? The way I see it, making players answer riddles is essentially *forcing* metagaming. Just because a player can or can't figure out the answer doesn't mean that their character could/couldn't. I've seen bright players playing characters with an 8 INT rattle off the answers to complex riddles like nothing. I've also seen "riddle-challenged" players with 18 INT characters stopped in their tracks because they couldn't figure out a riddle. Ahh - the Classic "Speak Friend and Enter" problem where the smart guy playing Frodo gets it right while the idiot playing Gandalf is busy smacking himself in the head. :)
feartheinvinceblehamster 03-03-05, 12:47 PM	A level 3 party...against a sphinx...that has given them a riddle they could not reasonably solve... Here are the steps you need to take: 1. Get a shovel. 2. Hit your DM over the head with the shovel. 3. Repeat step 2 for twenty minutes. 4. Dump the body in the nearest swamp. 5. Find a DM who knows what he's doing, as this one obviously doesn't understand either the concept of "fair encounter," or the concept of "TPKs are not your goal," or both. :rant: in the immortal words, well, actions, of arturick: *WHAM* *dig* *dig* *dig*
lukelightning 03-03-05, 12:50 PM	Maybe it's "Why should I help U?" Because they are in the same family (vowels). p.s. I hate riddles like this. DM's think they are being clever, but really they are just forcing metagaming.
Eldermount 03-03-05, 01:00 PM	Ahh - the Classic "Speak Friend and Enter" problem where the smart guy playing Frodo gets it right while the idiot playing Gandalf is busy smacking himself in the head. :) I believe in the book it was Gandalf that figured it out. And it wasn't a riddle, it was Gandalf translating improperly. He realized that he should have translated it as "Say, 'Friend,' and enter."
eRaz0r 03-03-05, 01:42 PM	It didn't happen that way in PJ's campaign, :)
Eldermount 03-03-05, 02:09 PM	:rofl: That's true.
Thorak 03-03-05, 02:10 PM	Ahh - the Classic "Speak Friend and Enter" problem where the smart guy playing Frodo gets it right while the idiot playing Gandalf is busy smacking himself in the head. :) And, in the adventure I'm currently playing, when the Int 14 paladin and the Sorceror are scratching their brains trying to figure out how to open the big bronze doors, the Paladin mostly thinking on a prophetic riddle we'd found, and the sorceror trying anything else. And the sorceror pipes up, "Hey, wasn't there something we found earlier that talked about 'passing the gate'?" To which the 8-10 Int Barbarian, who'd been picking the mud out of his boots bored out of his mind as us brainiacs were thinking, looked up and said "What, the bit that said "Open, in the name of the Great Lord Sakatha?" *click* *dark looks from Paladin and Sorceror* Great fun, and perfectly in-character. Saving grace is that we went in, down a short hallway, and the cocky Barbarian, swaggering that he out-thought us, promptly tripped a pit trap and fell in. And the correct answer to Bilbo's riddle, for those who have no idea about the Ring like Gollum at the time, the answer is "the insides of the pocket!" That, or "Lint?" Again, if it answers the riddle, it's a right answer, even if it's not the expected answer. The only way you can avoid this is if the riddle is part of an inanimate object, which needs the right password, and these only work if you get multiple guesses, so you can run through the list.
ShadowDragon8685 03-03-05, 02:27 PM	Actually, Golumn DID guess "lint," he also guessed "hands, string, or nothing!" Bilbo DID, in fact, have his hands in his pockets, but after string was guessed, he pulled them out, along with the lint in his pockets, allowing him to truthfully say that he had none in his pockets. His pockets were, however, occupied, occupied by The One Ring. :)
Thorak 03-03-05, 03:12 PM	Actually, Golumn DID guess "lint," he also guessed "hands, string, or nothing!" Bilbo DID, in fact, have his hands in his pockets, but after string was guessed, he pulled them out, along with the lint in his pockets, allowing him to truthfully say that he had none in his pockets. His pockets were, however, occupied, occupied by The One Ring. :) Yes, and even Bilbo admits he cheated. That's my point. Don't cheat at riddle-games with your players.
Thoronmir 03-03-05, 03:26 PM	That's my point. Don't cheat at riddle-games with your players.And that was my point as well. If the DM intends for a riddle to have a "correct" answer, he needs to either phrase the riddle so it is solveable (e.g., the classic "What walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs at twilight?") or provide clues to the PCs (e.g., a stone pylon depicting a zebra on the beach near the door that poses the riddle, "What is black and white and red all over?"). Anything short of these alternatives and the DM is just making the PCs play a guessing game. However, when properly used, riddles are legitimate challenges for the players. It often takes creativity and ingenuity to use effective tactics in combat, yet we rarely hear players complain that the DM was "unfair" because he made the players think about how to overcome their foe. A well-designed riddle is no different than a well-designed combat encounter.
The Listener 03-03-05, 03:37 PM	I recently came across another one of those door "riddles" as well... First question was "What is black and red all over?" I answered "A bleeding Drow". I got 50 bonus XP for making the DM laugh, but it was the wrong answer, so I got shocked for subdual damage. My partner answered "A sunburnt Zebra", which was the correct answer, and only he was let in. For me to go into the door with him, I had to answer "I spy something green." Search check reveiled nothing, I got shocked for "wrong" answers, and ended up never getting the answer right. My partner ended up coming back out, so I never got to find out what the answer was until after the session. Guess what it was: A green die in front of me! See what happens when I try to stay in character?
UltimateReality 03-03-05, 04:44 PM	That said, I’d be peeved if my players sought a riddle’s solution on the internet. Just as I’d be disappointed if they sought out any other metagaming information on the net (e.g., the “What are we fighting” and “How do I beat [insert monster]” threads).So what if the player is talking to a RL friend (we'll say non-gamer) face to face and happens to mention what happened during the gaming session, and that friend provides a valid answer to the riddle? What if the player is talking to another player and the other person overhears and interjects with the right answer? Is THAT still metagaming? Do you dock xp for that? As for the OP: the correct answer to the riddle is: "because if you don't, I'll walk". Any DM that pulled that on me would be watching my dice and plentiful sourcebooks leave the vicinity, on my person. *shakehead*
Tippy100 03-03-05, 04:57 PM	It's like an often-quoted riddle that was meant to be unsolvable, first published in Alice in Wonderland in the Tea Party scene; "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" Because they both produce notes, though they are often short and very flat.
Xavori 03-03-05, 05:33 PM	All of you are very narrow minded! :D Don't you see that that isn't the riddle itself, it's just a question, and the DM made it look as if it was the riddle? The Sphinx only asked him "Why should I help you?" and the poor guy is trying to find a "logical answer" for it! Here is what you should do: answer the Sphinx the question, and when she gives you the real riddle, come back here and tell us so we can help you ;) Note: This is actually half-joke, if the DM ACTUALLY didn't mention that that wasn't the riddle, just a normal question, I will laugh so ahrd that my stomach will blow up! Otherwise, have you considered making another character?
OmiKapSi 03-03-05, 05:38 PM	Did you think that one up Tippy? Because it's a great one. The best one I've heard is: "Because they are both black and very messy, and neither can be made to shut up." As for the original riddle, I'm going to chime in with the 'dopey riddle' responses. Your answer was as good as any others, and at least as good as his. The main problem here is that the riddle was very vaguely worded, giving little to no indication of what the correct response was. As was mentioned before, this is on par with "What have I got in my pocket." Oh, and technically bilbo didn't cheat, since gollum accepted his question as a valid entry into the contest when he said "Fine, but we must have three guesses." Which isn't to say that he wasn't a nasty filthy little cheatsy hobbits for posing its in the first place. :) I think the best answer so far though is UltimateRealities. My answer: Because you are going to kill me for giving the wrong answer. This sets up an interesting paradox, ensuring your characters survival. If the sphinx kills you for giving the wrong answer, then you gave a correct answer, meaning that he can only kill you out of spite. And if your GM has a monster kill you 'because the monster doesn't like you', especially if it's a monster who is significantly more powerful than your character, well, that's just them being a poor GM. And if the sphinx decides that it's a wrong answer, then it still shouldn't kill you, since killing you would fulfill the first part, making it a right answer. Heck, it's basically no better than having an elder dragon swoop out of the sky and breath on you guys. Good luck with the warmage. Oh, and as for looking up the answer on the internet, it is cheating. If one dislikes riddling, one should say so to ones GM, rather than pretending otherwise.
tiercel 03-03-05, 10:27 PM	As a DM, I like to use riddles occasionally. Yes, I know it is a challenge for the players rather than the characters, but in the larger picture of things, the whole game is supposed to be a (fun!) challenge for the players. Having said this, if one of my PCs has an Int of 26 and makes some reasonable Int check, I don't have any problem with dropping a hint. (Ditto with Wis.) At the same time, I don't feel that I am unjustified in making high-Int or high-Wis characters' players struggle with a riddle themselves, anymore than I am unjustified in making a high-Cha character's player actually roleplay out at least some of his character's attempts to be smooth/sly/gracious/whatever. I agree, though, that if players come up with a solution that works, even if it's not the "right" answer, then it should count. It is like bypassing a trap or defeating a monster with some wacko, unexpected tactic (or even just plain dumb luck) -- players shouldn't be punished because they didn't do exactly what the DM wanted. (Boring.) At the same time I recognize some of my players love riddles and others hate them, so riddles, like anything else, should be used sparingly. (That, or the environment should be such that some players' characters can be doing other things while the riddle-busters cogitate.) Finally, the solution/non-solution to a riddle takes place within a single tabletop session. Riddles shouldn't be a test of my players' mad Google skills, and if they couldn't puzzle out some answer to it, it meant I probably used a riddle that was too hard or too vague/crazy.
Dyrtt 03-03-05, 10:46 PM	Well, at this point it really doesn't matter. I sent an email off with my best guess. It was the wrong answer. And for a small recap. Me: Human Rogue (12 int, my hint was "It's a short answer) Half-Elf Sorcerer Dwarf Fighter (11 Int) Human Cleric (15 Wis) We had to answer this riddle to get past a sphinx. We are all about level 3. We each got an answer through email. We have been asking oursleves for weeks. We all answered: we all failed. The Sphinx killed us. End of story. *shrug* Oh, for the record the answer is "Because I can." Been wanting to try a warmage anyway.... Thanks for the help! Save-vs-DM IMHO if you are going to pose a riddle (the results of which could destroy the entire party) at least make it a good one. The answer to that riddle is unacceptable. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. I can drink a whole bottle of rubbing alchohol, but I should not. It's a lousy riddle. I don't know what your relationship is with the DM but if I were in your shoes, I would consider not playing with him.
Nardo Polo 03-04-05, 12:26 AM	So now I'll repost my original, thought out, answer. I took the same approach as someone else here and rendered the original question as : Why should I help U? Which, after playing with the vowel approach led me to: Because I owes (Os) U. Which, while not allowing me to pass the sphinx according to the OP's DM, is a much more riddle-ish answer than the one that was supposedly correct. I do have to say, riddles that aren't riddles (i.e. Just questions) are not proper riddles. Riddles require thought and present an answer within themselves as part of the 'question'.
Thoronmir 03-04-05, 11:41 AM	So what if the player is talking to a RL friend (we'll say non-gamer) face to face and happens to mention what happened during the gaming session, and that friend provides a valid answer to the riddle? What if the player is talking to another player and the other person overhears and interjects with the right answer? Is THAT still metagaming? Do you dock xp for that?First, I don't "dock" XP for metagaming. I simply don't award XP for challenges that are overcome through metagaming. I know it's a matter of semantics, but I don't want there to be any confusion ... I never asses XP "penalties" against my players. As for whether stumbling upon the riddle's solution from some third party is "metagaming" ... I'm not sure the source of the information matters. Players acquire OOC information all the time. They only metagame when they use that OOC information. For example, assume for the sake of argument that Trolls are so rare in the campaign that the PCs don't know to use fire or acid. If a player suddenly announced that his PC was applying his torch to the Troll, would it matter if the player acquired the information by reading the MM or if he received the tip from someone who overheard him discuss the campaign?
ShadowDragon8685 03-04-05, 11:56 AM	And what do you expect a player to do? Whack on the troll ineffectually until it kills a party member or two and then go through every energy type in his arsenal by random die roll until he hits upon acid or fire? I'm sorry. Creatures such as trolls, with such incredbily powerful boosts that are only negated by aspecified energy type - they were MADE with the intent of being Metagamed. An encounter with a troll is not an excersize in exploration. Everyone's fought trolls before. I knew before I ever rolled my first D20 - before I even owned my first D20 - that you hit trolls with fire and acid. Trolls are not an excersize in exploration. They're a challenge for a low-level party to find enough fire and acid to kill them. That simple. If you want to give your players an excersize in exploration, come up with a new monster. And don't take the "super-powerful beyond his CR, but with a few glaring but narrow weaknesses" approach that they did with Trolls, or you're aiming at a TPK.
Thoronmir 03-04-05, 12:20 PM	Yeah, I expected to hear from the chorus of those who believe that PCs are born knowing to kill Trolls with fire.:banghead: Let me help you out here Shadow ... it was just an example. Did you catch the part where I said, "assume for the sake of argument ..."? Plug in any other situation and my logic remains valid.
kejhix 03-04-05, 01:00 PM	And what do you expect a player to do? Whack on the troll ineffectually until it kills a party member or two and then go through every energy type in his arsenal by random die roll until he hits upon acid or fire? I'm sorry. Creatures such as trolls, with such incredbily powerful boosts that are only negated by aspecified energy type - they were MADE with the intent of being Metagamed. An encounter with a troll is not an excersize in exploration. Everyone's fought trolls before. I knew before I ever rolled my first D20 - before I even owned my first D20 - that you hit trolls with fire and acid. Trolls are not an excersize in exploration. They're a challenge for a low-level party to find enough fire and acid to kill them. That simple. If you want to give your players an excersize in exploration, come up with a new monster. And don't take the "super-powerful beyond his CR, but with a few glaring but narrow weaknesses" approach that they did with Trolls, or you're aiming at a TPK. This is the reason so many DMs have had to come up with "alternate" monsters from the MM ... such as trolls who are weak to ice and sonic, instead of fire and acid.
Vriishnak 03-04-05, 01:16 PM	Actually, I think one of the earlier posters gave the logic behind the riddle, even if it is retarded. "Why should I help you?" is what you hear when the DM says it, but in writing it would be "Why should I help U?" Thinking of the letters as entities, instead of letters, and assuming the sphinx is testing alignment as well, "Because I can" becomes a valid answer, even if it's one that no DM should expect their characters to come up with, especially with death as the threat for failure.
eudas 03-04-05, 03:17 PM	Because you have a coupon: http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2005-01-14 eudas
UltimateReality 03-04-05, 03:21 PM	First, I don't "dock" XP for metagaming. I simply don't award XP for challenges that are overcome through metagaming. I know it's a matter of semantics, but I don't want there to be any confusion ... I never asses XP "penalties" against my players.Sorry for the confusion, that's what I meant...I have never, thankfully, seen a DM actually deduct XP from someone's sheet for any reason, though I've seen it threatened. The player in question smartened up. For example, assume for the sake of argument that Trolls are so rare in the campaign that the PCs don't know to use fire or acid. If a player suddenly announced that his PC was applying his torch to the Troll, would it matter if the player acquired the information by reading the MM or if he received the tip from someone who overheard him discuss the campaign?Well, if all the player has left is a lit torch....some argument can also be made for the conclusion of "this thing keeps getting back up....if I burn it to ashes it won't have limbs to reanimate, right?" Determining whether or not something is metagaming can be tricky if you have experienced players who know better than to say out loud "Hey, this is a Troll from the MM and it's vulnerable to acid and fire!" In any case, metagaming penalties are really is up to the purview of the DM. I admit I'm biased here, as my old DM often put us up against things so difficult and unusual that we pretty much had to metagame the monsters/NPCs, group strategy, etc. in order to survive. It became something of a second habit. Other groups are obviously stricter, and as the DMs change we often have to remind ourselves that we can't keep using that OOC knowledge. Under our new DM, player to player cries of "hey, that's metagaming!" are (unfortunately) common. The offending player 9 times out of 10 isn't even aware they're doing it until they hear that. Upon stopping to think about it, they usually realize the other person is right, and retract that strategy/plan/action/discussion.
shadow master 03-04-05, 03:29 PM	try saying "i will pay"
Guy Humual 03-04-05, 03:53 PM	You cannot meta-game on riddles. A riddle is meant to test a players not the player's characters. If you can't solve a riddle with a dice roll then it's not meta-gaming to know the answer. If I used riddles from The Hobbit I can't get mad if the only player that solves the riddle is also the only player to have read that book. Even if that player is using a half-orc barbarian with intelligence and wisdom scores in the single digits I can't claim that the player is meta-gaming for using player knowledge to solve a puzzle that can truly only be solved in that fashion. If the DM gives you "time to think about it" why the heck shouldn't you use every means at your disposal? You’d be foolish not to. If the DM doesn’t want you to consult outside help to solve the riddle then it must be solved by the end of that session. Personally I think that was a poorly constructed encounter by the DM. I hope he realizes his mistake and learns from it. There’s nothing wrong with riddles, they’re fun now and then, but the character’s lives should never hang in the balance of an answer to a riddle. There’s nothing wrong with there being consequences for failing to answer a riddle but the challenge ratings for any such encounter must still be considered. A sphinx’s CR goes from 7-9 and for 3rd level characters that is an unacceptable encounter.
Tippy100 03-04-05, 05:14 PM	Actually yes, I did think that answer up. The riddle came up once when I was talking to some of my friends about riddles in general, and after giving my answer, one of my friends told me that was answer was apparently given in the foreward of one printing. So, I feel special, since my answer was the same one the author thought of.
Thoronmir 03-04-05, 05:46 PM	Well, if all the player has left is a lit torch....some argument can also be made for the conclusion of "this thing keeps getting back up....if I burn it to ashes it won't have limbs to reanimate, right?" Determining whether or not something is metagaming can be tricky if you have experienced players who know better than to say out loud "Hey, this is a Troll from the MM and it's vulnerable to acid and fire!"Given the level of emotion in the various threads regarding the scope of player knowledge, I should have known better than to use Trolls for my example. I certainly did not intend to resurrect those arguments. You're absolutely correct that the DM must make a judgment call whether the PC has deduced the solution or the player is just camouflaging his metagaming. As long as there's a rational reason for the PC to attempt a tactic, I wouldn't consider it metagaming. You gave a good example of such a reason.
ShadowDragon8685 03-04-05, 05:59 PM	I find it funny that people can invoke both metagaming and CR balance in the same thread. Skeletons were meant to be attacked instantly with blunt objects. Trolls were made to be confronted with Acid and Fire. The challenge is not in playing "Let's get beaten up and killed until we have tried everything in our arsenal EXCEPT what we know hurts this big green monster." The challenge is in mustering the Fire and Acid damage. For players who have never ever seen or heard or trolls, the CR of a single troll is going to skyrocket, and he could very well be a TPK, because it just keeps regenerating the damage they deal it.
Lana "Silvertongue" 03-04-05, 06:08 PM	A DM has the right to change any creature he wants from any of the MM. As long as he provides the opertunity to research either prior to the campaign or use their knowledge checks to achieve the information needed to kill the creature. I'll use the troll as an example, if a DM changes its immunities to acid and sonic or cold and acid, then tells me when I roll my knowledge check that its still fire and acid... he better be prepared to be smitten. Nor should he provide the WRONG information on a failed knowledge check... that too is a smite worthy offense
kejhix 03-04-05, 06:30 PM	I find it funny that people can invoke both metagaming and CR balance in the same thread. Skeletons were meant to be attacked instantly with blunt objects. Trolls were made to be confronted with Acid and Fire. The challenge is not in playing "Let's get beaten up and killed until we have tried everything in our arsenal EXCEPT what we know hurts this big green monster." The challenge is in mustering the Fire and Acid damage. For players who have never ever seen or heard or trolls, the CR of a single troll is going to skyrocket, and he could very well be a TPK, because it just keeps regenerating the damage they deal it. I disagree with this, because there is always the option for a group of players to run away. Use your best tactics to waylay said troll, get back to town, and ask around until you find someone that says, "Ohhh, didn't you know? Trolls HATE fire and acid!" Here is a perfect example (this actually happened to me): In my VERY first D&D session ever (and many of the players in the group were also brand-spanking-new), we were beset by skeletons. I was playing a paladin using a longsword, and most of the other players were also using slashing and/or piercing weapons. We couldn't figure out why the cleric using a morningstar was stomping skeletons left and right, and three of us were ganged up on one skeleton who would NOT go down. Now, considering that we REALLY had no idea what was making the cleric so special, we had to continue to chip away at the skeletons as best we could until the cleric waded through. It was a difficult fight, but we made it. Back in town, we were stocking up on supplies and someone mentions in passing, "You guys were hitting skeletons with swords?? Well no WONDER you're all bloody messes! Gotta hit 'em with sticks and stuff. Blunt things. Quarterstaff works nicely." It was a collective smack on the forehead around the table ... but from that moment on, our characters knew how to fight skeletons. Point is (dragging myself back on topic), there really is no excuse for metagaming. However, I will agree with the idea that if the DM lets you leave the table with the parting words, "Solve this riddle", there is nothing wrong with using every means at your disposal. If one of my players got up in the middle of the session and said, "I'm gonna look it up on the internet," ... THEN, I would have an issue. But again, this is just my opinion. *smiles*
ShadowDragon8685 03-04-05, 06:36 PM	Congratulations. You guys just fought an enounter that was WAAAY higher than it's CR should have been, and I'll bet you got gipped out of the XP, too.
kejhix 03-04-05, 07:23 PM	Congratulations. You guys just fought an enounter that was WAAAY higher than it's CR should have been, and I'll bet you got gipped out of the XP, too. Again, I disagree. The CR isn't based on how much you know about the monster. It's based on how difficult the encounter was. Now I will say that an encounter that was more difficult due to in-game reasons (not knowing how to kill a regenerating monster, for example) should perhaps yield more xp, whereas poor tactics (Let's charge the big black dragon!) should not. However, this is a DM call. Again, my point is, there is still no call for metagaming. Ever.
ShadowDragon8685 03-04-05, 07:35 PM	Except the fact that the CR system expects all encounters to be metagamed, with the players all having a copy of the Monster Manual, and the only questions being not "how do we kill this," but "how much fire and acid can we call up at 3rd level."
shultz 03-04-05, 07:42 PM	Except the fact that the CR system expects all encounters to be metagamed, with the players all having a copy of the Monster Manual, and the only questions being not "how do we kill this," but "how much fire and acid can we call up at 3rd level." Yet the DM can use the exact same CR system to design a monster like the troll but with unknown differences like immunity to fire and acid but vulnerability to sonic and cold iron. Then it's "how do we kill this".
kejhix 03-04-05, 07:45 PM	Except the fact that the CR system expects all encounters to be metagamed, with the players all having a copy of the Monster Manual, and the only questions being not "how do we kill this," but "how much fire and acid can we call up at 3rd level." At this point, you have stated an opinion, which is fine, if you feel this way. If your DM has no problem with you metagaming, then all is well in your world. *grins* However, not everyone shares this opinion, and any DM who cracks down on a metagaming player is well within their rights to do so. You may not choose to play in the campaign of a DM who doesn't permit metagaming, and that's perfectly acceptable. No one can force you to play. The DM may also not allow you to participate in the game they are running if you insist on metagaming, and that is perfectly acceptable, too. *smacks head* Sorry for hijacking this riddle thread, folks. But since the riddle was answered, I figured it would be okay to respond to other issues brought up regarding the question itself. :blush:
OmiKapSi 03-04-05, 08:21 PM	*fails will save to leave well enough alone* What's wrong with taking a troll down and then beating it into next week? I've played in games where we went up against trolls. Sure they lasted a little longer than usual, and we could see that their wounds were healing, but at 5th level, you're dishing out some really serious damage. In addition, it doesn't matter if the mage blasts it with a fireball, not everyone is dealing straight fire or acid damage, so it's going to get it's five hit points back each round anyway. And once it goes down, you just keep beating on it for a few minutes. Then you take the carcass and hold it under water for a few minutes. If it somehow survives that, you just need to get creative. /rant
Thorak 03-04-05, 10:01 PM	And what do you expect a player to do? Whack on the troll ineffectually until it kills a party member or two and then go through every energy type in his arsenal by random die roll until he hits upon acid or fire? I'm sorry. Creatures such as trolls, with such incredbily powerful boosts that are only negated by aspecified energy type - they were MADE with the intent of being Metagamed. An encounter with a troll is not an excersize in exploration. Everyone's fought trolls before. I knew before I ever rolled my first D20 - before I even owned my first D20 - that you hit trolls with fire and acid. Trolls are not an excersize in exploration. They're a challenge for a low-level party to find enough fire and acid to kill them. That simple. If you want to give your players an excersize in exploration, come up with a new monster. And don't take the "super-powerful beyond his CR, but with a few glaring but narrow weaknesses" approach that they did with Trolls, or you're aiming at a TPK. This isn't remotely true. Let's look at the Knowledge skill for a moment. Specifically, the second paragraph in the Check section; "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10+ the monster's HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check exceeds the DC, the DM can give another piece of useful information." In other words, if a PC who's never encountered a Troll wants to know what it's vulnerable to, they need to make a Knowledge: Nature check, with a DC of 16. And remember, Knowledge skills are trained only. So you need at least one rank in Knowledge Nature to have even a chance of knowing what a monstrous humanoid A> is, B> is vulnerable to, or C> anything else about it except what is clearly visible. This is utterly core, people. Trolls aren't so common that everyone knows they're vulnerable to fire and acid. You have to be making your Knowledge checks to figure these things out, unless your character learns through experience, as mine did when the one he hacked apart got back up, but the one the mage fried with fire didn't. My character still doesn't know acid will also work. And he doesn't have the Knowledge: Nature to figure it out. Also, it's not Nature that's the skill for all monsters, different skills cover different types. Nature just happens to cover Giants, of which the Troll is one. Every monster is an exercise in exploration. If your characters are starting knowing this stuff, then you're either metagaming and thus cheating, or your DM is houseruling around the Knowledge rules. Either way, that's not how the system works, and there's no point harping about how you houserule or cheat.
ShadowDragon8685 03-04-05, 10:38 PM	Monsters are an exploration in combat, not an exploration in exploration. Hell, when you install the ToEE computer game, what's the first monster they show you during the installer slideshow? A troll! and what's the bit in bold print? EXPLAINING it's weaknesses! A DM who enforces knowledge skills on common monsters - and trust me, trolls are exceedingly common. Any adventurer who's ever explored the Realms has met them, and many of them will be BARDS, who will SING of their heroic destruction of trolls by fire and acid - is a jerk. That simple. A Troll should be COMMON KNOWLEDGE. And besides, forcing players to take ranks in an otherwise useless skill is bull. Yes, I just called Knowledge skills bull. You don't like it, tough. They're stupid little skills that have no use and you woulden't take unless you have enough skill points to max out all your other class skills.
UltimateReality 03-05-05, 02:16 PM	Yes, I just called Knowledge skills bull. You don't like it, tough. They're stupid little skills that have no use and you woulden't take unless you have enough skill points to max out all your other class skills. :rofl: These skills are what allow you to metagame.