Improved Mettle? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Mettle? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ilaro
06-08-07, 10:00 PM Does it exist!? lol
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-08-07, 10:04 PM If it did, it would be incredibly powerful. I don't think so though.
Ilaro
06-08-07, 10:12 PM It would definatley improve the hexblade class!
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-08-07, 10:20 PM Yes, yes it would.
Ilaro
06-08-07, 10:33 PM Do you know what is a dangerous combo.

Hexblade/Occult Slayer/Spellsword
Reyemile
06-08-07, 10:46 PM There is an epic class--Void Incarnate, maybe?--that can get improved mettle around level 28.
StevenO
06-08-07, 11:21 PM A problem with Improved Mettle would be that it often isn't that easy to take "half" of what a failed save would be. At least that is the case before save or die was modified into extreme damage because of its broken nature in epic levels.
Thubby
06-09-07, 02:32 AM well, you could just have all "partial" spells deal their partial effect on a fail.
danielinthewolvesden
06-09-07, 04:04 AM Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver.
Drag0nUL
06-09-07, 05:39 AM Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver.

And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells?
You are only half-dead on a failed save?:)
Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done.
calronmoonflower
06-09-07, 06:36 AM And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells?
You are only half-dead on a failed save?:)
Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done.

Lose 50% max hp +5.
danielinthewolvesden
06-09-07, 05:50 PM And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells?
You are only half-dead on a failed save?:)
Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done.

Mettle only negates the DAMAGE done on spells with Fort or Will saves when you make your save. If it is not damage, Mettle (or "Improved Mettle") does no good. This would help iwith spells like "Cause xxxx Wounds".

On preview, it could also do what calronmoonflower suggests. That would make it much more powerful.
Drag0nUL
06-10-07, 02:21 AM Mettle only negates the DAMAGE done on spells with Fort or Will saves when you make your save. If it is not damage, Mettle (or "Improved Mettle") does no good. This would help iwith spells like "Cause xxxx Wounds".

You are wrong here. Just checked mettle in the Hexblade entry in CW and it applies to all effects, not just damage.
draco1119
06-10-07, 06:53 AM Do you know what is a dangerous combo.

Hexblade/Occult Slayer/Spellsword

I like Scout/Favored Soul/Pious Templar, myself...
JungeonJeff
06-10-07, 08:24 AM Does it exist!? lol

Gah. Im away from my books, but i believe it does exist. An item in Complete Champion, grants you mettle, and if you already have it, it grants you improved mettle.

Now i could be just dreaming at the moment, but tjeck it out if you have the book at hand :)
zeratulcraft
06-10-07, 09:12 AM Mettle : On a Passed save against a Fort/Will affect that has a Partial affect on a save, you instead take no effect.

Therefor

Improved Mettle : As Mettle, except on a failed save you only take the Partial effect.

There wouldn't be damage/half thing, since that's not what Mettle does in the first place.
Bob Loblaw
06-10-07, 09:52 AM You are wrong here. Just checked mettle in the Hexblade entry in CW and it applies to all effects, not just damage.

Here is the exact text:
Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude, if he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

It only works against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save. Spells do not always have a lesser effect (i.e., Implosion) and those that do are clear on what that effect is (i.e. disintegrate).
northern_bear
06-10-07, 10:29 AM Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver.

Crazy. Improved metle is an unbelievably powerful ability. It let's you ignore many of the most deadly effects in the game.

And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells?
You are only half-dead on a failed save?:)
Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done.

Metle, and hence improved metle, only works on spells that allow a fort or will save to reduce, but not eliminate the effect.

Wail of the banshee has a fort save to negate. There is no such thing as a partial affect for wail of the banshee. You either fail the save and die, or you make the save and nothing bad happens. So Metle (or improved metle) would have no effect on this spell.

On the other hand, finger of death has a fort save to reduce, but not eliminate the negative effects. On a failed save, you take only 3d6 + level damage. Therefore metle applies. If you have metle, and you make the save, then you take no damage, instead of the 3d6. If there was such a thing as improved metle, it would mean you take only 3d6 damage, even on a failed save.

Way too good to be true.
Drag0nUL
06-10-07, 11:34 AM Crazy. Improved mettle is an unbelievably powerful ability. It let's you ignore many of the most deadly effects in the game.

It is an extremely powerful ability, but if the only way to get it is by having 10+ levels in a quasi-useless class like hexblade it won't break the game significantly.
northern_bear
06-10-07, 12:25 PM It is an extremely powerful ability, but if the only way to get it is by having 10+ levels in a quasi-useless class like hexblade it won't break the game significantly.

Not game breaking, OK. But problematic for DMs.

A hexblade is no worse than a paladin, ranger, or fighter. Which I suppose are also "quasi-uselss" classes.
Yadot
06-10-07, 02:45 PM I agree with you on the fighter, but the palidin and ranger are better than the hexblade.
Drag0nUL
06-10-07, 03:26 PM Fighter, ranger and paladin are more useful than the hexblade. Not necesarely as full class progressions, but as a few levels added to a build. 1-2 levels of fighter yield bonus feats, 2 levels of paladin give you cha added to your saves, and a few ranger levels give you skill points and two-weapon fighting.
However I see no advantage that is to be gained from even a few hexblade levels.
esteigs
06-22-07, 10:48 AM ...Mettle?
XD

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ilaro 06-08-07, 10:00 PM	Does it exist!? lol
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-08-07, 10:04 PM	If it did, it would be incredibly powerful. I don't think so though.
Ilaro 06-08-07, 10:12 PM	It would definatley improve the hexblade class!
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-08-07, 10:20 PM	Yes, yes it would.
Ilaro 06-08-07, 10:33 PM	Do you know what is a dangerous combo. Hexblade/Occult Slayer/Spellsword
Reyemile 06-08-07, 10:46 PM	There is an epic class--Void Incarnate, maybe?--that can get improved mettle around level 28.
StevenO 06-08-07, 11:21 PM	A problem with Improved Mettle would be that it often isn't that easy to take "half" of what a failed save would be. At least that is the case before save or die was modified into extreme damage because of its broken nature in epic levels.
Thubby 06-09-07, 02:32 AM	well, you could just have all "partial" spells deal their partial effect on a fail.
danielinthewolvesden 06-09-07, 04:04 AM	Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver.
Drag0nUL 06-09-07, 05:39 AM	Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver. And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells? You are only half-dead on a failed save?:) Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done.
calronmoonflower 06-09-07, 06:36 AM	And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells? You are only half-dead on a failed save?:) Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done. Lose 50% max hp +5.
danielinthewolvesden 06-09-07, 05:50 PM	And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells? You are only half-dead on a failed save?:) Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done. Mettle only negates the DAMAGE done on spells with Fort or Will saves when you make your save. If it is not damage, Mettle (or "Improved Mettle") does no good. This would help iwith spells like "Cause xxxx Wounds". On preview, it could also do what calronmoonflower suggests. That would make it much more powerful.
Drag0nUL 06-10-07, 02:21 AM	Mettle only negates the DAMAGE done on spells with Fort or Will saves when you make your save. If it is not damage, Mettle (or "Improved Mettle") does no good. This would help iwith spells like "Cause xxxx Wounds". You are wrong here. Just checked mettle in the Hexblade entry in CW and it applies to all effects, not just damage.
draco1119 06-10-07, 06:53 AM	Do you know what is a dangerous combo. Hexblade/Occult Slayer/Spellsword I like Scout/Favored Soul/Pious Templar, myself...
JungeonJeff 06-10-07, 08:24 AM	Does it exist!? lol Gah. Im away from my books, but i believe it does exist. An item in Complete Champion, grants you mettle, and if you already have it, it grants you improved mettle. Now i could be just dreaming at the moment, but tjeck it out if you have the book at hand :)
zeratulcraft 06-10-07, 09:12 AM	Mettle : On a Passed save against a Fort/Will affect that has a Partial affect on a save, you instead take no effect. Therefor Improved Mettle : As Mettle, except on a failed save you only take the Partial effect. There wouldn't be damage/half thing, since that's not what Mettle does in the first place.
Bob Loblaw 06-10-07, 09:52 AM	You are wrong here. Just checked mettle in the Hexblade entry in CW and it applies to all effects, not just damage. Here is the exact text: Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude, if he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle. It only works against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save. Spells do not always have a lesser effect (i.e., Implosion) and those that do are clear on what that effect is (i.e. disintegrate).
northern_bear 06-10-07, 10:29 AM	Hexblade is rather sad, I'd give them this @level 10 with nary a quaver. Crazy. Improved metle is an unbelievably powerful ability. It let's you ignore many of the most deadly effects in the game. And what would the effects of Improved mettle regarding save-or-die spells? You are only half-dead on a failed save?:) Sorry but I just don't see how this could be done. Metle, and hence improved metle, only works on spells that allow a fort or will save to reduce, but not eliminate the effect. Wail of the banshee has a fort save to negate. There is no such thing as a partial affect for wail of the banshee. You either fail the save and die, or you make the save and nothing bad happens. So Metle (or improved metle) would have no effect on this spell. On the other hand, finger of death has a fort save to reduce, but not eliminate the negative effects. On a failed save, you take only 3d6 + level damage. Therefore metle applies. If you have metle, and you make the save, then you take no damage, instead of the 3d6. If there was such a thing as improved metle, it would mean you take only 3d6 damage, even on a failed save. Way too good to be true.
Drag0nUL 06-10-07, 11:34 AM	Crazy. Improved mettle is an unbelievably powerful ability. It let's you ignore many of the most deadly effects in the game. It is an extremely powerful ability, but if the only way to get it is by having 10+ levels in a quasi-useless class like hexblade it won't break the game significantly.
northern_bear 06-10-07, 12:25 PM	It is an extremely powerful ability, but if the only way to get it is by having 10+ levels in a quasi-useless class like hexblade it won't break the game significantly. Not game breaking, OK. But problematic for DMs. A hexblade is no worse than a paladin, ranger, or fighter. Which I suppose are also "quasi-uselss" classes.
Yadot 06-10-07, 02:45 PM	I agree with you on the fighter, but the palidin and ranger are better than the hexblade.
Drag0nUL 06-10-07, 03:26 PM	Fighter, ranger and paladin are more useful than the hexblade. Not necesarely as full class progressions, but as a few levels added to a build. 1-2 levels of fighter yield bonus feats, 2 levels of paladin give you cha added to your saves, and a few ranger levels give you skill points and two-weapon fighting. However I see no advantage that is to be gained from even a few hexblade levels.
esteigs 06-22-07, 10:48 AM	...Mettle? XD