Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodDragon 05-26-06, 12:51 PM	Alright heres the story: Dean is currently an adventurer of 11th level. 9 Rogue 2 Shadow Dancer. I’m haven’t trouble deciding what class level he should level up next. This is my first real rogue character I’ve play up from low levels and as I progress I notice the d6’s in sneak are fantastic however I’m barely able to hit anything and generally even though I love the massive damage from Sneak attacks they seem only “Slightly” better then the other melee class in my group. Second I’m complete impotent against the dreaded undead. Which is understandable seeing that’s what sneak attacks weakness is, but I have nothing reliable to back up on. So I’m wondering if I should finished Rogue, or Shadow Dancer, or perhaps branch off into something completely different. Opinions? Oh and so you have a general Idea what dean is like: Str:16, Dex:19,Con:14,Int:12,Wis:11,Cha:16 His alignment is True Neutral although even though the rest of the party generalists him as a “Classic rogue” he’s probably one of the straightest arrow in the bunch, and my DM has said for the proposes of leveling I’d be completely in my right to switch his alignment to N Good or C Good, due to how I Role play my character. He’s a Short Sword Specialist (Sorta of) and is played more as a Combat/Sneak attack rogue then the norm ‘Ton-o-skill’ which is how I actually planned to play him so his build which lacks a decent Int was intentional. Feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw/Flick of the wrist, Two weapon Fight. I am planning on taking Dark Runner next level so nothing can track my while hiding-in-plain-sight. Although I would also like to hear perhaps a different path choice for feats. Combat idea was that he has four short sword sheaths in an X on his back and after he flick of the wrists with on sword, next turn he’ll do it with a second sword, third turn drop a sword and flick of the wrist a third from his back, fourth turn etc etc. It worked very well in earlier levels. Then I obtained a sword of blur strike and sword of sudulty. It is a VERY safe bet that I will sneak attack SOMETHING every turn in combat before it dies however actually Striking AC’s is a problem. Skill specialist are in : Balance, Open Lock, Disable Device, Use Magical Device (and with all the healing wands Dean owns he also doubles as the team’s after battle Cleric), Search, and Moderate are Spot and Listen. Edit: Tumble! How silly of me to forget that. Magic Items are Note: Sandals of Hermoeous Balance (Ables you to walk up walks, not ceilings and balance on walk), Short sword of Sudulty, Something like 4 Wands of healing all with 25+ charges left. Yeah that’s about it. My apologies for the convoluted format this was typed in, I would appreciate an opinion for better or worse so long as it’s some what constructive :) Thank you.
atog_eater 05-26-06, 01:05 PM	a +3 short sword? bracers of dexterity?
Zherog 05-26-06, 01:12 PM	I'm not a fan of the Shadow Dancer prestige class, but we'll work with it anyway. I would certainly stay on the rogue and/or shadow dancer path. It's what you are. Let's look at each class at your next level and see what you get: Rogue 10: +1 BAB +1 Reflex save 8+Int skill points Special ability Special abilities for a rogue are golden. There's several really good ones: Crippling Strike - deliver 2 points of Strength damage with every sneak attack Slippery Mind - a second change to make those all-important Will saves Opportunist - once per round, make an Attack of Opportunity against a foe who was hit in combat by an ally And, of course, you can also opt to select a feat with the ability. If I had to rank those three, I'd probably go Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Slippery Mind. Shadowdancer 3: +1 BAB +1 Fort and Will 6+Int skill points Shadow Illusion Summon Shadow shadow illusion is a once per day silent image. Nice, but not earth shattering. Summon shadow, however, has the chance to be a really good benefit for you. It's an instant flanking buddy, and the Strength damage caused by the shadow makes it less likely (in most cases) for your foe to be able to hit you, and when your foe does hit you it's for less damage. Of course, the downside is the fact that the creature is fairly easy to kill at your level, and if it dies you get screwed out of XP. Another option is to grab a level or two of fighter. You'd get +1 BAB, an increase to your Fort save, nice hit points, and a bonus feat. Your skills will suffer, though. My opinion is you should stick with rogue. I think I'd go one more level in Shadowdancer to get the shadow companion, then jump back into rogue levels. Sneak Attack is your strength - use it when you can, and when you can't, stay away. Edit: You also need to start putting skill ranks into Tumble. It allows you to move around the battlefield at will; the ability to freely move around without provoking attacks of opportunity makes it that much easier to set up flanking.
Rickiel 05-26-06, 01:16 PM	Personally I'd say stick with the Shadow Dancer route for now. And from the looks of it you deserve the 'neutral good' alignment. Nothing wrong with that at all I find. For maximum hitting of AC's, there always flanking, using items that would deny target their dex, or you could invest your next two feats in Combat Expertise and Deft Strike. If there's a warrior in your group that likes tripping people, those tripped are your new targets. All in all I think you have an EXCELLENT combat rogue! :)
MerlintheTuna 05-26-06, 03:22 PM	You might want to reconsider your next feat, as well. As you've already got Combat Reflexes, I think you may have already qualified for some of the PHB2 feats that make your flanking abilities even better. (Vexing Flanker, and such.) I don't have the book in front of me now, but I know that there's a feat that increases your attack bonus while flanking from +2 to +4. It's not incredible, but hey, you're a rogue -- you shouldn't be attacking much while you aren't flanking.
kelvinaw273 05-26-06, 04:03 PM	I would say Shadow Dancer - the extra abilities are well worth it. With weapon finesse, magical weapons and your BAB you should have a decent attack, so why aren't you hitting? On the assumtion that your DM may be sending high AC opponants your way, remember: Use flanking bonus, attack unaware foes (flat-footed), attack downed foes, get Improved Trip and maybe a weapon that can deliver it if no-one else in the party has it. If that fails, take two levels in fighter - that's add +2 BAB, you can take a weapon focus for another +1 and take the remaining bonus feat wherever you want it (exotic weapon profficiency maybe).
mlund 05-26-06, 05:11 PM	Isn't there a feat in Complete Adventurer or Complete Warrior that lets you take a Standard Action to "find a weak spot" in the enemy's armor and then next turn basically hose their AC and shiv them? - Marty Lund
Rickiel 05-26-06, 05:27 PM	Deft Strike, it requires the Combat Expertise feat and several ranks in spot, and with a move action you can try a spot check and if it beats their AC, all natural armor and armor bonuses go bye bye for your next attack.
Dei 05-27-06, 06:39 AM	For feats I would say you should definately look into: Hamstring, Opportunist, Deft Opportunist and perhaps Deft Strike Hamstring's from complete warrior and allows you to loose 1d6 of sneak attack to halve their movement rate, unbelievably useful tactically. Can't remember exactly where Opportunist is from but it lets you make an attack of opportunity when someone else scores a successful hit on your target 1/round. Deft Opportunist is in Complete Adventurer and gives you +4 on your AoOs, useful for overcoming those oh so important few extra points of armour class and unmissable when combined with combat reflexes. Deft strike may be a no go with only moderate spot checks but it's also from Complete Adventurer. Basically you take a standard action to make a spot check vs their AC and provided you attack them before the end of your next turn, you get to totally ignore their armour and natural armour bonuses, essentially making a touch attack. Really useful for your opening sneak-attack as you can make the spot check just before combat begins. For equipment, this is something you'll have to save up for, invest in a brilliant energy weapon. It's expensive but essentially ignores all armour bonuses making it unbelievably easy to dish out damage with every single attack. For progression in levels, once you have the shadow jump ability look at the Teflammar Shadowlord from Unapproachable East, it is a very, very cool combat class for rogue types.
Zherog 05-27-06, 10:29 AM	Opportunist isn't a feat; it's one of the rogue special abilities that can be picked at 10th, 13th, 16th, or 19th level.
Aldarionn 05-27-06, 04:29 PM	I'd continue advancing as a Rogue, and work on getting your attack bonus up. Your Shortsword of Subdlty (SP?) can be advanced as a normal weapon, and it's definatly the way you want to go, seeing as it grants you +4 to attack and damage rolls every time you make a sneak attack, and thus make it much easier for you to hit. So here is a list for what you should do at 12th level: Advance to 10th level Rogue Place stat point into Dexterity Buy Gloves of Dexterity +2/+4/+6 depending on what you can afford Increase your weapon's enhancement bonus by 1 if possible Take Weapon Focus (shortsword) as your feat All of these things will make you hit more. There is also a feat out there that you might consider taking at level 15 that allows you to count as being in any square you threaten for the purposes of flanking. IE if you and an ally did not flank a creature from your current positions, but one of the squares you threaten would allow you to flank, you can designate that square as the square you occupy for the purposes of flanking. There is also a class feature for the 1st level of Tactical Soldier that gives you pretty much the same thing. All this does is let you flank more often, and give you more opportunities to land your sneak attak damage. Aldarionn Edit: For your 10th level Rogue special ability, Improved Evation cannot be beaten for utility. That ability has saved my Rogue's ass on more occations than I can count. No damage on a save is nice, but no damage on a save and half on a fail is far better.
Zherog 05-27-06, 09:11 PM	Edit: For your 10th level Rogue special ability, Improved Evation cannot be beaten for utility. Improved Evasion is a sucktastic ability for a rogue.
Aldarionn 05-28-06, 04:03 AM	Improved Evasion is a sucktastic ability for a rogue. Bah, you know how many times I've wished for that ability when playing another class, or wished for it as a lower level Rogue. It's saved my ass in many situations where the DM goes AE crazy, and I end up the only one not taking a ton of damage, which is all fine and good because Rogues rarely have many HP to begin with compared to fighter classes. Evasion is great, but having the ability to take half damage on a fail is awsome at higher levels when there are nasty things such as Dragon breath weapons you have to look out for. Aldarionn
Nom 05-28-06, 07:25 AM	I think Zherog's point is that a rogue should rarely if ever fail a Ref save. And the situations where he's likely to Improved Evasion won't help anyway (since he's probably immobile or unconscious). That said, Improved Evasion is marginally more useful to the rogue than Spell Focus.
Odimax 05-28-06, 07:34 AM	Improved Evasion is AWESOME. Think about this: regardless of how high your save is, you WILL FAIL at least 5% of the time by rolling a 1. Many times, if a rogue fails a save and takes full damage from something like a fireball, he is going to get severely burned, if not killed. Improved Evasion halves that damage.
Zherog 05-28-06, 11:59 AM	Wow - you think Improved Evasion is awesome because one out of every twenty Reflex saves it'll help you? I mean, really, think about that for a minute. Then look at some of the abilities you're not taking by taking IE. You could take Crippling Strike, which allows you to take less damage in melee combat by applying Strength damage to every target you hit with a sneak attack. I've seen rogues consistently score 2 or 3 hits a round; that's 4-6 Strength damage - that's significant! You could take Opportunist so that once a round when an ally hits a foe, you could take an Attack of Opportunity - just because you're there. If you flank the target (and let's face it, you probably do) then you're getting your sweet, sweet sneak attack damage. That's a minimum of 5d6 damage, just because one of your friends poked the bad guy in the arm with his sword. You could take a feat. Any feat. There are a ton of feats that are exceedingly useful to a rogue. You could take Slippery Mind and help cover up one of your biggest weaknesses as a rogue - your poor Will save. Now, you get 2 chances to make just about any Will save. Bah, you know how many times I've wished for that ability when playing another class... I never said it sucked for other classes. In fact, if you can find some way to get Improved Evasion for your cleric or fighter, it's gonna rock massively. That's because those two classes (among others) are much more likely to fail a Reflex save, which is when the benefit of this ability kicks into gear. Improved Evasion is a trap for a rogue, though. You read the ability and it looks crazy good. But apply it practically, and you'll find that it rarely, if ever, kicks in.
BloodDragon 05-28-06, 01:39 PM	My, my I didn’t except for a request for some help to turn into a war on Character abilities. Could we please keep it civil and not turn this into a flame war of some sort. I really respect the D&D forum for how well everyone keeps their tempers in check, please don’t ruin that. Anyway 2nd level shadow dancer has already granted me Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge which is why I dipped into it back at… 8th? Level so I wouldn’t have to waste a Special Abilities for it and I’d get it earlier on. And yes sorry Aldarionn I did mean Shortsword of Subtlety. Excuses my spelling. :) So to popular belief Rogue seems to have severed people well so I guess that’s the way to go, and Crippling Strike does sound quite deadly. I’m interested in this “Deft strike” I don’t own a PHB2 does anyone know the requirements for it? Also where if this Tactical Soldier class? Might be worth taking a look at. Thank for the responses, as always these forums are very helpful!
Dei 05-28-06, 01:56 PM	Deft Strike is in Complete adventurer rather than PHb2. Pre-requisites are: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Spot 10 ranks, sneak attack Looking at the pre-requisites it will be hard for you to get actually and certainly won't happen for several levels as you have neither the int nor combat expertise...
Aldarionn 05-28-06, 04:18 PM	A point about Crippling Strike. I don't believe ability damage from the same source stacks. Ability DRAIN from the same source stacks, but I'm pretty sure you will only get -2 Str on any one target you hit with crippling strike. Aldarionn
Zherog 05-28-06, 07:35 PM	Ability damage absolutely stacks - just like hit point damage "stacks." Ability penalties (such as the penalty applied by casting ray of enfeeblement do not stack. My, my I didn’t except for a request for some help to turn into a war on Character abilities. Could we please keep it civil and not turn this into a flame war of some sort. :confused: I don't see any flames anywhere in this thread. :confused:
Zherog 05-28-06, 08:50 PM	Anyway 2nd level shadow dancer has already granted me Improved Evasion ... Technically, it doesn't. ;) If the Shadowdancer's Evasion ability at 2nd level turned into Improved Evasion if the character already possess Evasion, it would have a note. Sort of like how Uncanny Dodge has a note. :) What you have is evasion twice - once from your rogue levels, and once from your SD levels. It's not an unreasonable house rule to turn the SD's evasion into Improved Evasion, but just be clear that's what it is - a house rule.
Juzzman 05-28-06, 10:00 PM	For me, there would be several things to consider. On the whole, do you face humaoid opponents, or do you usally face undead/constructs? And do the rest of your party give you lots of opportunities for flanking? If you are not getting much opportunity to flank, you need to be able to set your own up. Attacking from invis or from hiding is good, as is the quickdraw, (but since you really need a higher plus on your weapon to help hitting, you cant afford to keep droppping magical weapons). Using Bluff to feint is another option, and if you look into the invisible blade PRC you can eventually get feint as a free action, so if you have 4 attacks in a round and you can feint for all of em you can do some awesome damage! You might need to get your dm to look at the pre-requisites for it though, they dont all make sense and he might change them if you ask nicely, and it doesnt work on shortswords:-) Equipment wise a ring of improved invis 2 or 3 per day would be nice if you could afford it, and even a wand of improved invis might be usefull (if the dm allows it). If you find yourself facing more constructs and undead, there is a feat Razing strike. It requires levels in divine spell caster for undead or levels in arcane caster for constructs, but for sactificing a level 1 spell you get a +1 to hit and 1d6 + sneakattack damage (iirc). plus as a caster you could get spells like truestrike etc if needed. Hope that sparks a few ideas. Very interesting way of using the flick of the wrist feat btw. Juz
Zherog 05-29-06, 12:42 AM	...and if you look into the invisible blade PRC you can eventually get feint as a free action, so if you have 4 attacks in a round and you can feint for all of em you can do some awesome damage! Not according to the errata, unfortunately...
BloodDragon 05-29-06, 09:55 AM	What you have is evasion twice - once from your rogue levels, and once from your SD levels. It's not an unreasonable house rule to turn the SD's evasion into Improved Evasion, but just be clear that's what it is - a house rule. That is what happened I guess I wasn't aware it was a house rule. When I asked the DM "What happens if I get an Ability Twice" He Asked/Said "Evasion? It upgrades to Improve Evasion" I just thought it was a handy rule I skipped over when things upgraded to 3.5. House rule it is. For me, there would be several things to consider. On the whole, do you face humaoid opponents, or do you usally face undead/constructs? And do the rest of your party give you lots of opportunities for flanking? If you are not getting much opportunity to flank, you need to be able to set your own up. Attacking from invis or from hiding is good, as is the quickdraw, (but since you really need a higher plus on your weapon to help hitting, you cant afford to keep droppping magical weapons). Using Bluff to feint is another option, and if you look into the invisible blade PRC you can eventually get feint as a free action, so if you have 4 attacks in a round and you can feint for all of em you can do some awesome damage! You might need to get your dm to look at the pre-requisites for it though, they dont all make sense and he might change them if you ask nicely, and it doesnt work on shortswords:-) Equipment wise a ring of improved invis 2 or 3 per day would be nice if you could afford it, and even a wand of improved invis might be usefull (if the dm allows it). If you find yourself facing more constructs and undead, there is a feat Razing strike. It requires levels in divine spell caster for undead or levels in arcane caster for constructs, but for sactificing a level 1 spell you get a +1 to hit and 1d6 + sneakattack damage (iirc). plus as a caster you could get spells like truestrike etc if needed. Hope that sparks a few ideas. Very interesting way of using the flick of the wrist feat btw. Juz Yet to fight a constructs of any real challange (Surprisingly) mostly 50/50 with the good ol' Cultist/Undead combo. The undead are where it stings cause I usally sit back or try and blast them with wands of healing which are doing dissmal damage. There's always a chance to flank if I'm not flanking it's usually my own fault, I usually try to get in there with my Hide in Plain Sight. Razing Strike? More interesting feats ideas! :D I think this post is giving me MORE difficult choices instead of helping me pick one :P Guess I could dip into cleric, the only healing is spread between my wands and the Master of Many Forms Druid. Both not excatly ideal healers but we get the job done so far. Edit: It's suddenly dawned on my that we have no real anti-undead skills in our party other then massive damage from our Fighters/Arcane Caster... Hmn I smell trouble brewing.
Zherog 05-29-06, 11:02 AM	That is what happened I guess I wasn't aware it was a house rule. When I asked the DM "What happens if I get an Ability Twice" He Asked/Said "Evasion? It upgrades to Improve Evasion" I just thought it was a handy rule I skipped over when things upgraded to 3.5. House rule it is. Like I said, it's not a bad house rule. I would rule the same thing, because it makes sense for it to upgrade. For an example of a class that specifically upgrades, take a peek at the Dungeon Delver in Complete Adventurer. The undead are where it stings cause I usally sit back or try and blast them with wands of healing which are doing dissmal damage. Yeah, undead are nasty for a rogue. A few things about your comments here. First, a healing wand (cure light wounds for example) still requires the spell to be delivered by a touch. Whether you have to make the touch or the wand has to make the touch isn't particularly clear - and it probably doesn't matter much. You're right, though, that the damage probably isn't very good. Here's another option you can do during combat with undead. Get yourself into a flanking position, fight defensively, and use the "aid another" action to grant your flanking ally a bonus to their attack role. You only need to "hit" AC 10 for that, and then you'll be granting him/her a +4 to their attack roll (+2 from flanking, +2 from aid another). Fighting defensively should help keep you a little more protected while you're doing that. There's always a chance to flank if I'm not flanking it's usually my own fault, I usually try to get in there with my Hide in Plain Sight. That works. Do you have a lot of ranks in Tumble? It's one of the two or three best skills in the game. Guess I could dip into cleric, the only healing is spread between my wands and the Master of Many Forms Druid. Both not excatly ideal healers but we get the job done so far. At the level you're at, the healing you're doing with wands is actually ideal. a wand of cure light wounds is cheap, and it allows you to start every combat at full hit points. I'd avoid the dip into cleric. Edit: It's suddenly dawned on my that we have no real anti-undead skills in our party other then massive damage from our Fighters/Arcane Caster... Hmn I smell trouble brewing. Turning get harder and harder at higher levels anyway. Undead with a CR of your average party level will have oodles of hit dice thrown on, just to make them a challenge; on top of that, most of 'em have Turn Resistance. Do you have the ability to buy scrolls? If so, there's several scrolls of cleric spells you probably want to pick up for fighting undead. Among them: searing light and disrupting weapon. If you have access to Libris Mortis, there's a spell in there called undead bane; it makes your weapon, well, Undead Bane - +2 to the enhancement bonus and +2d6 to damage. It lasts for a sweet, sweet 1 hour/level too. So those would all help you while fighting undead.
sneak_Blast 05-29-06, 03:09 PM	For a sneak attack specialist, I would recommend the following things: 1. Two-Weapon Fighting *This allows you to hit twice with your sneak attack in one turn. You do take a -2 penalty to attacks, but for being able to hit twice with your sneak attack damage, it is well worth it. 2. Ring of Invisibility *This gives you total concealment at will. Now, it is true that it only lasts until your next attack, but that isn't the point. The point is, it allows you to make a hide check. You only need concealment or cover to MAKE a hide check. You don't have to have it constantly up. Once you are hidden, creatures you attack are always flat-footed, so their AC is lower and you can always get in sneak attacks. A ring of Blur at will also works, and it only costs SL 2 * CL 3 * 2,000 = 12k. 3. Marrowcrushing & Souldrinking *This will probably not be avaible(sp?) right away, but get a shortsword with one of these qualities ASAP. Marrowcrushing - A +3 bonus. - Whenever you hit with a Marrowcrushing weapon, the creature hit by it takes 1 Con. damage. -Source: BoVD Souldrinking - A +4 bonus. - Whenever you hit with a Souldrinking weapon, the creature hit by it takes 1 negative level. -Source: BoVD Both of these abilities are EXTREMELY useful and will have the entire party thanking you. 4. Quicker Than the Eye *This is essentially Improved Feint, but better. It requires that you have Dex 19 or more, but it allows you to make a feint as a move action opposed to the targets spot. This is better than Improved Feint because it does not require another feat to get AND it is opposed to the target's Spot check as opposed to his Sense Motive + his BAB. 5. Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike *Ah yes, those tricky, tricky sneak attack immune monsters. They do get on your nerves sometimes, don't they. Well now, I have a solution. Get an item that allows Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike at will or permanently or whatever. I'll do the math for you: SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp + SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp + SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp This comes out to 6,000 gp for Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike at will. Not too shabby for being able to hit constructs, undead, and plants with your sneak attack, now is it. Thats all I can think of right now. I built my rogue like this. He is one of party's main damage dealers now. Hope this helps! Good luck man! ;)
Zherog 05-29-06, 06:09 PM	I'll do the math for you: SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp + SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp + SL: 1 * CL: 1 * 2,000 = 2,000 gp This comes out to 6,000 gp for Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Vine Strike at will. Not too shabby for being able to hit constructs, undead, and plants with your sneak attack, now is it. You forgot part: Uncustomary space limitation - Multiply entire cost by 1.5 No space limitation - Multiply entire cost by 2 Multiple different abilities - Multiply higher item cost by 2 The last one most definitely applies; one of the other two most likely apply. Also, since you're using the Continuous Use costs, you also have to deal with this: If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. Those spells have a duration of 1 round, so you need to multiply each cost by 4; after you do that, then you apply the increase for "multiple abilities." After that, you apply the increase for either uncustomary slot or slotless. I'm too lazy to do the actual math, but suffice to say it's much more than 6K. :)
sneak_Blast 05-29-06, 08:43 PM	Separate item each AND at will. Its 6k.
Zherog 05-29-06, 08:51 PM	Then you're likely doing unslotted, which doubles the price. And even with that, absolutely no sane DM would allow those items at that price.
Edwind 05-29-06, 09:25 PM	If you have problems with undead look into the minis handbook and you'll find a "Skullclan something or other" basically they're rogues who fight undead, and they can sneak attack undead. Also, if you actually decide to go NG go into the BoED and grab Sacred Strike, which turns your d6s into d8s when you sneak attack an evil being...Which in your case could be everthing. Only thing is you make sure you STAY Good. Or you lose it. Have fun, and hope this helps.