Incorporeal Creatures and Cure Wounds Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Incorporeal Creatures and Cure Wounds Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShadowChemosh
11-28-04, 03:37 AM Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).

Above is the SRD info about incorporeal creatures. My question is this. It lists that you have a 50% chance to miss even with spells unless its with “(positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons)”. So if someone was to make a melee touch attack using a Cure Spell which is listed as positive energy(which is why it does damage to undead) would the touch attack have a 50% chance to miss?

The 2nd part of the question would it make a difference if it was a touch attack being done by a Staff of Healing?

This just came up in a game I played last night, and the DM ruled that the touch attack even though it was with positive energy had a 50% chance to still miss.

My thinking is that because its with positive energy that the 50% miss chance is removed. I am I wrong or right, and is their any official ruling that I can show the DM.
Thanks
Nom
11-28-04, 06:06 AM I agree with your DM. Rationale is as follows:

The purpose of the touch attack is to actually hit the creature. That the effect being delivered by the touch is positive energy based, rather than (say) electrical, is irrelevant until after the touch is made and the spell discharges. Thus, the act of touching has a 50% miss chance. If successful, the spell discharges normally (regardless of source).

Note that failing to hit because of a miss chance still counts as a clean miss, so the spell does not discharge, you are still 'armed', and you can try again next attack.

Force effects are different. Force effects have a "physical" presence in the realm that the incorporeal creature exists in, and thus strike normally.

Interestingly, the "positive and negative energy" line is only in the MM, not the DMG. One could argue that the held cure spell turns the hand into a positive energy weapon, thus negating the miss chance. However, I'd rule it like a holy sword: the weapon (sword or hand) must hit (thus requiring a miss chance check) before the magic can be applied.
ShadowChemosh
11-28-04, 10:46 AM I agree with your DM. Rationale is as follows:
Interestingly, the "positive and negative energy" line is only in the MM, not the DMG. One could argue that the held cure spell turns the hand into a positive energy weapon, thus negating the miss chance. However, I'd rule it like a holy sword: the weapon (sword or hand) must hit (thus requiring a miss chance check) before the magic can be applied.

With this ruling what is the purpose of saying "Positive" energy does not get the 50% chance to miss. If both spells and weapons of Positive energy still get the 50% chance to miss?

With this same logic WHY did are DM allow are Holy Monk with Vow of Poverty to hit the Creature with his Positive Hands without the 50% chance to hit?

My last quesition is that WHAT Positive Energy Weapon or Magic then Affects the Incorpreal creature without getting the 50% chance to miss?
Aeromus
11-28-04, 11:26 AM Your DM was wrong.

Postive and Nagative energy exist in the same plane as incorporal Undead. (These are not just ethereal creatures...They exist on the NEGATIVE plane not just the ethereal one.)

And, the staff itself is the not the delivering agent of the cure spell. Your hand is. Much like a wand... The item lets you "cast" the spell delivering it is the same way as the spell normally would be.

The "P/N energy discharges when it hits the area the incorperal undead exist in. That's why there is no miss chance.

Enjoy.
Nom
11-28-04, 05:31 PM With this ruling what is the purpose of saying "Positive" energy does not get the 50% chance to miss. If both spells and weapons of Positive energy still get the 50% chance to miss?Positive / Negative energy spells and abilities include disrupt undead, negative energy burst, any of the mass cure spells, and turning undead. None of these spells require physical contact to trigger. In contrast, disintegrate would have a miss chance, since it requires physical contact. I suggest that any touch spell has a miss chance for a similar reason (unless your toucher itself is made of force, +ve or -ve energy).

With this same logic WHY did are DM allow are Holy Monk with Vow of Poverty to hit the Creature with his Positive Hands without the 50% chance to hit?Either he ruled that the hands are actually a +ve energy weapon (rather than a normal weapon that delivers a +ve energy attack on a successful hit), or he made a mistake. Considering you're asking why he did something (vs what the rules say), you'll probably find he can answer better than I can.

My last quesition is that WHAT Positive Energy Weapon or Magic then Affects the Incorpreal creature without getting the 50% chance to miss?Stuff that doesn't suffer a miss chance:

* Any mundane attack (it misses automatically)
* Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly.
* Any damage dealing magic whose method of delivery is composed of force, positive energy or negative energy.

disrupt undead uses a +ve energy ray. cure light wounds, mass deals damage directly to the target. You may find others.
ShadowChemosh
11-28-04, 06:53 PM Stuff that doesn't suffer a miss chance:

* Any mundane attack (it misses automatically)
* Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly.
* Any damage dealing magic whose method of delivery is composed of force, positive energy or negative energy.

disrupt undead uses a +ve energy ray. cure light wounds, mass deals damage directly to the target. You may find others.

This does not even make sense. By this very logic you have listed above Postive energy from Cure Spell would NOT get the 50% chance to miss.

Name one spell that Does "Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly"? How does it deal damage if not directly. It uses Indirect fire like say a Fireball? By the rules a Fireball has a 50% chance to miss, because it is NOT negative or Positive energy.

I am sorry I do not get the logic you are using for your answer. In matter of fact it reads that your logic now agrees with me.
later
Nom
11-28-04, 09:15 PM This does not even make sense. By this very logic you have listed above Postive energy from Cure Spell would NOT get the 50% chance to miss.Are you talking cure light wounds, mass or cure light wounds? In cure light wounds, mass, the spell directly affects the designated targets, with no touch attack needed. In cure light wounds, you must touch the target, at which point the spell discharges into them. I assert that you are not making a positive energy attack (or an <attack type> attack) until the spell discharges - after you touch the target.

Name one spell that Does "Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly"?hold monster. This is a direct attack, but not through damage.

As an example of 'indirect damage', I'd note phantasmal killer, a mind-affecting spell that deals damage. If you fail the Will save, the spell affects you. You then make a Fort save to either die (fail) or take 3d6 damage (success).

Ultimately, some of these definitions are fuzzy. The DM needs to examine the relevant flavour text, and decide how they work in his game, hopefully to the satisfaction of all those involved. The key issue is consistency. For my part, I'd apply to 50% miss chance to any magic that required physical contact with the target (except force and +ve or -ve energy bursts and rays), and not to other effects.
ShadowChemosh
11-30-04, 03:24 PM Bump.....

No one else has an opinion about this? We have 1 person in agreement with my DM and one against.

What Nom says seems to makes sense, and maybe I am really against it because the party was so out matched by these ghosts. When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =(

The only spell we seemed to have that could affect these ghosts was magic missile and after expending all the ones the mage had we still had not dropped even a single one. Then with the ghosts ability to just ignore are armor most of the party only had a about a 13AC vs the ghosts who where getting +11 to hit us. So with all this the ability to make a touch attack without the 50% chance to miss and do only d8+1 damage how was that going to unbalance the encounter?
Thanks
spasheridan
11-30-04, 06:12 PM To throw my thoughts onto the fire...

step 1: Cast Cure (blah)
- effect: positive energy now appears in / around your hand

Step 2: stick you hand on the target (make a touch attack)
- effect: glow of positive energy grounds into target and does it's work

THe key here is to note that when you cast a touch spell you become "charged" with the spell. You threaten AoO with this and you are considered armed. I think it's obviuos that when you are "holding" a spell like this you have some visible and obviuos effect showing that the spell is "charged".

If my interpertation is correct, you don't atcually touch the target, you just get the glow onto the target. The glow is what needs to "touch" the target. Since the glow, in this case, is positive energy, then it will hit an incorporeal creature no problem.

edit:
about balance. incorporeal creatures tend to have low HP and inflict low physical damage. Their only real defense is their 50% miss chance. Since these creatures have only 1 defense.... once you get past it the monsters are toast. This is true for all 1 trick pony monsters. Cast nuetrilize poison vs poison monsters and it's easy street. Cast fly vs ground bound targets and the monsters are toast. You came up with a way around the special defense. Boom, you win. If you DM doesn't like it he should realize that monsters with special attacks / defenses are over CRed for their threat... because generally the battle is VERY one sided. The problem with these monsters though is that if the PCs dont figure out the appropriate counter quickly the entire party is DEAD.

Anywho, forget about balance. Play by the rules.
Aeromus
11-30-04, 06:55 PM When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =(

Then your DM was wrong again.

If he ruled that you have miss chance on the cure/wounds spells then the spell never discharged and could have been reused next round.
Nom
11-30-04, 07:33 PM What Nom says seems to makes sense, and maybe I am really against it because the party was so out matched by these ghosts.The Ghost template adds +2 to CR, which might be a little on the cheap side. But yes, ghosts can be nasty.

When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =(Don't forget that a 'missed' melee touch attack has no effect on the held charge. You can just keep trying until you hit.

Many people forget this special ability of melee touch attacks: you can keep trying until it hits.
The only spell we seemed to have that could affect these ghosts was magic missile and after expending all the ones the mage had we still had not dropped even a single one. Then with the ghosts ability to just ignore are armor most of the party only had a about a 13AC vs the ghosts who where getting +11 to hit us. So with all this the ability to make a touch attack without the 50% chance to miss and do only d8+1 damage how was that going to unbalance the encounter?Don't forget that ghosts have a rather low AC as well. The base AC of a manifested ghost is 10. Natural armour only applies while ethereal, as does an armour or shield bonus, unless ghost touch or made of force. The ghost does gain a deflection modifier equal to Cha or +1 (whichever is higher).

Thus, the ghost's AC against you should be about 14 or 15. The 50% miss chance with magic weapons will mean that only half your hits are good, but you should beat the AC pretty reliably.
FriendoftheDork
12-01-04, 05:52 AM Your DM was wrong.

Postive and Nagative energy exist in the same plane as incorporal Undead. (These are not just ethereal creatures...They exist on the NEGATIVE plane not just the ethereal one.)

And, the staff itself is the not the delivering agent of the cure spell. Your hand is. Much like a wand... The item lets you "cast" the spell delivering it is the same way as the spell normally would be.

The "P/N energy discharges when it hits the area the incorperal undead exist in. That's why there is no miss chance.

Enjoy.

I agree with the interpretation, and frankly can't see how it can be interpreted otherwise when looking at the MM quote.
Joe Khol
12-01-04, 06:54 AM I think everyone is missing a key point in the rule;

50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy...

This isn't a miss chance, its an ignore the damage chance. The attack hits where the incorporeal creature is but doesn't necessarily affect them because there is no substance to affect.

With that in mind I'd say the DM was wrong. The PC sticks his hand where the creature is a discharges positive energy. The creature isn't going to be ignoring that!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowChemosh 11-28-04, 03:37 AM	Incorporeal Subtype: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Above is the SRD info about incorporeal creatures. My question is this. It lists that you have a 50% chance to miss even with spells unless its with “(positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons)”. So if someone was to make a melee touch attack using a Cure Spell which is listed as positive energy(which is why it does damage to undead) would the touch attack have a 50% chance to miss? The 2nd part of the question would it make a difference if it was a touch attack being done by a Staff of Healing? This just came up in a game I played last night, and the DM ruled that the touch attack even though it was with positive energy had a 50% chance to still miss. My thinking is that because its with positive energy that the 50% miss chance is removed. I am I wrong or right, and is their any official ruling that I can show the DM. Thanks
Nom 11-28-04, 06:06 AM	I agree with your DM. Rationale is as follows: The purpose of the touch attack is to actually hit the creature. That the effect being delivered by the touch is positive energy based, rather than (say) electrical, is irrelevant until after the touch is made and the spell discharges. Thus, the act of touching has a 50% miss chance. If successful, the spell discharges normally (regardless of source). Note that failing to hit because of a miss chance still counts as a clean miss, so the spell does not discharge, you are still 'armed', and you can try again next attack. Force effects are different. Force effects have a "physical" presence in the realm that the incorporeal creature exists in, and thus strike normally. Interestingly, the "positive and negative energy" line is only in the MM, not the DMG. One could argue that the held cure spell turns the hand into a positive energy weapon, thus negating the miss chance. However, I'd rule it like a holy sword: the weapon (sword or hand) must hit (thus requiring a miss chance check) before the magic can be applied.
ShadowChemosh 11-28-04, 10:46 AM	I agree with your DM. Rationale is as follows: Interestingly, the "positive and negative energy" line is only in the MM, not the DMG. One could argue that the held cure spell turns the hand into a positive energy weapon, thus negating the miss chance. However, I'd rule it like a holy sword: the weapon (sword or hand) must hit (thus requiring a miss chance check) before the magic can be applied. With this ruling what is the purpose of saying "Positive" energy does not get the 50% chance to miss. If both spells and weapons of Positive energy still get the 50% chance to miss? With this same logic WHY did are DM allow are Holy Monk with Vow of Poverty to hit the Creature with his Positive Hands without the 50% chance to hit? My last quesition is that WHAT Positive Energy Weapon or Magic then Affects the Incorpreal creature without getting the 50% chance to miss?
Aeromus 11-28-04, 11:26 AM	Your DM was wrong. Postive and Nagative energy exist in the same plane as incorporal Undead. (These are not just ethereal creatures...They exist on the NEGATIVE plane not just the ethereal one.) And, the staff itself is the not the delivering agent of the cure spell. Your hand is. Much like a wand... The item lets you "cast" the spell delivering it is the same way as the spell normally would be. The "P/N energy discharges when it hits the area the incorperal undead exist in. That's why there is no miss chance. Enjoy.
Nom 11-28-04, 05:31 PM	With this ruling what is the purpose of saying "Positive" energy does not get the 50% chance to miss. If both spells and weapons of Positive energy still get the 50% chance to miss?Positive / Negative energy spells and abilities include disrupt undead, negative energy burst, any of the mass cure spells, and turning undead. None of these spells require physical contact to trigger. In contrast, disintegrate would have a miss chance, since it requires physical contact. I suggest that any touch spell has a miss chance for a similar reason (unless your toucher itself is made of force, +ve or -ve energy). With this same logic WHY did are DM allow are Holy Monk with Vow of Poverty to hit the Creature with his Positive Hands without the 50% chance to hit?Either he ruled that the hands are actually a +ve energy weapon (rather than a normal weapon that delivers a +ve energy attack on a successful hit), or he made a mistake. Considering you're asking why he did something (vs what the rules say), you'll probably find he can answer better than I can. My last quesition is that WHAT Positive Energy Weapon or Magic then Affects the Incorpreal creature without getting the 50% chance to miss?Stuff that doesn't suffer a miss chance: * Any mundane attack (it misses automatically) * Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly. * Any damage dealing magic whose method of delivery is composed of force, positive energy or negative energy. disrupt undead uses a +ve energy ray. cure light wounds, mass deals damage directly to the target. You may find others.
ShadowChemosh 11-28-04, 06:53 PM	Stuff that doesn't suffer a miss chance: * Any mundane attack (it misses automatically) * Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly. * Any damage dealing magic whose method of delivery is composed of force, positive energy or negative energy. disrupt undead uses a +ve energy ray. cure light wounds, mass deals damage directly to the target. You may find others. This does not even make sense. By this very logic you have listed above Postive energy from Cure Spell would NOT get the 50% chance to miss. Name one spell that Does "Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly"? How does it deal damage if not directly. It uses Indirect fire like say a Fireball? By the rules a Fireball has a 50% chance to miss, because it is NOT negative or Positive energy. I am sorry I do not get the logic you are using for your answer. In matter of fact it reads that your logic now agrees with me. later
Nom 11-28-04, 09:15 PM	This does not even make sense. By this very logic you have listed above Postive energy from Cure Spell would NOT get the 50% chance to miss.Are you talking cure light wounds, mass or cure light wounds? In cure light wounds, mass, the spell directly affects the designated targets, with no touch attack needed. In cure light wounds, you must touch the target, at which point the spell discharges into them. I assert that you are not making a positive energy attack (or an <attack type> attack) until the spell discharges - after you touch the target. Name one spell that Does "Any magic that doesn't deal damage directly"?hold monster. This is a direct attack, but not through damage. As an example of 'indirect damage', I'd note phantasmal killer, a mind-affecting spell that deals damage. If you fail the Will save, the spell affects you. You then make a Fort save to either die (fail) or take 3d6 damage (success). Ultimately, some of these definitions are fuzzy. The DM needs to examine the relevant flavour text, and decide how they work in his game, hopefully to the satisfaction of all those involved. The key issue is consistency. For my part, I'd apply to 50% miss chance to any magic that required physical contact with the target (except force and +ve or -ve energy bursts and rays), and not to other effects.
ShadowChemosh 11-30-04, 03:24 PM	Bump..... No one else has an opinion about this? We have 1 person in agreement with my DM and one against. What Nom says seems to makes sense, and maybe I am really against it because the party was so out matched by these ghosts. When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =( The only spell we seemed to have that could affect these ghosts was magic missile and after expending all the ones the mage had we still had not dropped even a single one. Then with the ghosts ability to just ignore are armor most of the party only had a about a 13AC vs the ghosts who where getting +11 to hit us. So with all this the ability to make a touch attack without the 50% chance to miss and do only d8+1 damage how was that going to unbalance the encounter? Thanks
spasheridan 11-30-04, 06:12 PM	To throw my thoughts onto the fire... step 1: Cast Cure (blah) - effect: positive energy now appears in / around your hand Step 2: stick you hand on the target (make a touch attack) - effect: glow of positive energy grounds into target and does it's work THe key here is to note that when you cast a touch spell you become "charged" with the spell. You threaten AoO with this and you are considered armed. I think it's obviuos that when you are "holding" a spell like this you have some visible and obviuos effect showing that the spell is "charged". If my interpertation is correct, you don't atcually touch the target, you just get the glow onto the target. The glow is what needs to "touch" the target. Since the glow, in this case, is positive energy, then it will hit an incorporeal creature no problem. edit: about balance. incorporeal creatures tend to have low HP and inflict low physical damage. Their only real defense is their 50% miss chance. Since these creatures have only 1 defense.... once you get past it the monsters are toast. This is true for all 1 trick pony monsters. Cast nuetrilize poison vs poison monsters and it's easy street. Cast fly vs ground bound targets and the monsters are toast. You came up with a way around the special defense. Boom, you win. If you DM doesn't like it he should realize that monsters with special attacks / defenses are over CRed for their threat... because generally the battle is VERY one sided. The problem with these monsters though is that if the PCs dont figure out the appropriate counter quickly the entire party is DEAD. Anywho, forget about balance. Play by the rules.
Aeromus 11-30-04, 06:55 PM	When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =( Then your DM was wrong again. If he ruled that you have miss chance on the cure/wounds spells then the spell never discharged and could have been reused next round.
Nom 11-30-04, 07:33 PM	What Nom says seems to makes sense, and maybe I am really against it because the party was so out matched by these ghosts.The Ghost template adds +2 to CR, which might be a little on the cheap side. But yes, ghosts can be nasty. When we came up with the good idea of using are healing staff to kill them all we ended up doing was wasting charges. =(Don't forget that a 'missed' melee touch attack has no effect on the held charge. You can just keep trying until you hit. Many people forget this special ability of melee touch attacks: you can keep trying until it hits. The only spell we seemed to have that could affect these ghosts was magic missile and after expending all the ones the mage had we still had not dropped even a single one. Then with the ghosts ability to just ignore are armor most of the party only had a about a 13AC vs the ghosts who where getting +11 to hit us. So with all this the ability to make a touch attack without the 50% chance to miss and do only d8+1 damage how was that going to unbalance the encounter?Don't forget that ghosts have a rather low AC as well. The base AC of a manifested ghost is 10. Natural armour only applies while ethereal, as does an armour or shield bonus, unless ghost touch or made of force. The ghost does gain a deflection modifier equal to Cha or +1 (whichever is higher). Thus, the ghost's AC against you should be about 14 or 15. The 50% miss chance with magic weapons will mean that only half your hits are good, but you should beat the AC pretty reliably.
FriendoftheDork 12-01-04, 05:52 AM	Your DM was wrong. Postive and Nagative energy exist in the same plane as incorporal Undead. (These are not just ethereal creatures...They exist on the NEGATIVE plane not just the ethereal one.) And, the staff itself is the not the delivering agent of the cure spell. Your hand is. Much like a wand... The item lets you "cast" the spell delivering it is the same way as the spell normally would be. The "P/N energy discharges when it hits the area the incorperal undead exist in. That's why there is no miss chance. Enjoy. I agree with the interpretation, and frankly can't see how it can be interpreted otherwise when looking at the MM quote.
Joe Khol 12-01-04, 06:54 AM	I think everyone is missing a key point in the rule; 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy... This isn't a miss chance, its an ignore the damage chance. The attack hits where the incorporeal creature is but doesn't necessarily affect them because there is no substance to affect. With that in mind I'd say the DM was wrong. The PC sticks his hand where the creature is a discharges positive energy. The creature isn't going to be ignoring that!