Initiative Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Initiative Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
blackjackg
11-21-06, 05:11 PM Hi folks. I'm a long time 2e player who's just finished his first few sessions of 3.5e gaming. I have a question regarding how initiative is handled. Scenario:

My character has spotted a velociraptor-like creature (supposedly from MM3. It might be a velociraptor, I don't know), but the creature hasn't spotted him. Rather than engage it in combat, my character decides to ready his crossbow and wait to see what happens. So he sits there, with his crossbow aimed and his finger on the trigger, until the wind changes and the creature gets his scent. Since they're both aware of each other now, they roll initiative. The creature wins and charges, mauling my character nastily. I never get to use my crossbow at all, as I'm now engaged in melee and don't feel like provoking an attack of opportunity.

This confuses me. By the rules I've played by (and run), a character with a nocked and readied missile weapon would always go before a creature attempting to charge him. Have the rules really changed so drastically? Is there any system material that my DM might not be aware of that covers this eventuality?
Tempest Stormwind
11-21-06, 05:16 PM It was slightly mishandled, but only because you described it out of game terms.

Mechanically, you should have drawn your crossbow and readied an action to fire at it if it moves to engage you. This is how you represent what you were *trying* to do in game terms.

HOWEVER, the way you described it, it sounds more like "I use my surprise action to delay." Which is significantly worse since it means that you can be caught by surprise by the other guy still.
Toloran
11-21-06, 05:24 PM Here is what happened from reality perspective (what the rules are trying to simulate): You notice the raptor but he didn't notice you. You took a round to load your crossbow. The instant you finished the raptor smelled you. At this point, its down to reaction times. In your situation, the raptor ended up reacting faster then you did and got the drop on you.

Here is what it works out from a rules perspective:
Character makes spot check and notices the raptor. Raptor fails its spot check and you are out of range of its scent ability. You initate combat and enter a suprise round. You spend your action during that round to load your crossbow. Next round, the wind shifts and you are now in range of its scent ability and it spots you and knows you are there. Inititive is rolled and it gets to go first. It charges you before you can react and so on.

Now, you what you could have done is on your next turn (had the raptor not noticed you) is prepare a ready action (for when the raptor spots you) which DOES go off before the raptor would have attacked.

Keep in mind this: During a suprise round(s) you can take your time doing things as long as the enemy doesn't know you are there. Once it does, however, its all up to reflexes (inititive).
Salla
11-21-06, 06:45 PM It was slightly mishandled, but only because you described it out of game terms.

Mechanically, you should have drawn your crossbow and readied an action to fire at it if it moves to engage you. This is how you represent what you were *trying* to do in game terms.

HOWEVER, the way you described it, it sounds more like "I use my surprise action to delay." Which is significantly worse since it means that you can be caught by surprise by the other guy still.

The hitch being, you can't ready actions out of combat.
Matthew77
11-21-06, 07:10 PM As long as the opponent doesn't notice you, you can take as many actions as you want out of combat until it it becomes aware of you.

If the opponent never becomes aware of you, combat never begins.

Once it becomes aware, combat starts, and you get a suprise round, because you were aware first.

During the suprise round, you can make a standard action.

Readying an action is a standard action.

Thus, if you can stay hidden long enough to draw and load your crossbow, you can use your suprise round action to ready a shot if it charges you.

If it became aware of you while you were trying to load your crossbow, then you use up your suprise round loading it, and are down to straight initiative to see if you can fire before it gets to you.

So he sits there, with his crossbow aimed and his finger on the trigger, until the wind changes and the creature gets his scent

If this waiting process took more than 6 seconds, then I think your DM took your suprise round action away from you.
blackjackg
11-21-06, 07:44 PM Oh, ok. Yeah... I still haven't gotten the new combat action system quite down yet. Thanks for the input, I'll try and remember for next time.
Molitor
11-22-06, 03:01 AM Pay close attention to table 8-2 on page 141 of the Players Handbook (PHB). I also was raised on older versions of this game and remember vividly the "nocked" arrow condition.

All in all I cannot add anything to what Matthew77 has written, it was spot on and correct from what I know.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
blackjackg 11-21-06, 05:11 PM	Hi folks. I'm a long time 2e player who's just finished his first few sessions of 3.5e gaming. I have a question regarding how initiative is handled. Scenario: My character has spotted a velociraptor-like creature (supposedly from MM3. It might be a velociraptor, I don't know), but the creature hasn't spotted him. Rather than engage it in combat, my character decides to ready his crossbow and wait to see what happens. So he sits there, with his crossbow aimed and his finger on the trigger, until the wind changes and the creature gets his scent. Since they're both aware of each other now, they roll initiative. The creature wins and charges, mauling my character nastily. I never get to use my crossbow at all, as I'm now engaged in melee and don't feel like provoking an attack of opportunity. This confuses me. By the rules I've played by (and run), a character with a nocked and readied missile weapon would always go before a creature attempting to charge him. Have the rules really changed so drastically? Is there any system material that my DM might not be aware of that covers this eventuality?
Tempest Stormwind 11-21-06, 05:16 PM	It was slightly mishandled, but only because you described it out of game terms. Mechanically, you should have drawn your crossbow and readied an action to fire at it if it moves to engage you. This is how you represent what you were trying to do in game terms. HOWEVER, the way you described it, it sounds more like "I use my surprise action to delay." Which is significantly worse since it means that you can be caught by surprise by the other guy still.
Toloran 11-21-06, 05:24 PM	Here is what happened from reality perspective (what the rules are trying to simulate): You notice the raptor but he didn't notice you. You took a round to load your crossbow. The instant you finished the raptor smelled you. At this point, its down to reaction times. In your situation, the raptor ended up reacting faster then you did and got the drop on you. Here is what it works out from a rules perspective: Character makes spot check and notices the raptor. Raptor fails its spot check and you are out of range of its scent ability. You initate combat and enter a suprise round. You spend your action during that round to load your crossbow. Next round, the wind shifts and you are now in range of its scent ability and it spots you and knows you are there. Inititive is rolled and it gets to go first. It charges you before you can react and so on. Now, you what you could have done is on your next turn (had the raptor not noticed you) is prepare a ready action (for when the raptor spots you) which DOES go off before the raptor would have attacked. Keep in mind this: During a suprise round(s) you can take your time doing things as long as the enemy doesn't know you are there. Once it does, however, its all up to reflexes (inititive).
Salla 11-21-06, 06:45 PM	It was slightly mishandled, but only because you described it out of game terms. Mechanically, you should have drawn your crossbow and readied an action to fire at it if it moves to engage you. This is how you represent what you were trying to do in game terms. HOWEVER, the way you described it, it sounds more like "I use my surprise action to delay." Which is significantly worse since it means that you can be caught by surprise by the other guy still. The hitch being, you can't ready actions out of combat.
Matthew77 11-21-06, 07:10 PM	As long as the opponent doesn't notice you, you can take as many actions as you want out of combat until it it becomes aware of you. If the opponent never becomes aware of you, combat never begins. Once it becomes aware, combat starts, and you get a suprise round, because you were aware first. During the suprise round, you can make a standard action. Readying an action is a standard action. Thus, if you can stay hidden long enough to draw and load your crossbow, you can use your suprise round action to ready a shot if it charges you. If it became aware of you while you were trying to load your crossbow, then you use up your suprise round loading it, and are down to straight initiative to see if you can fire before it gets to you. So he sits there, with his crossbow aimed and his finger on the trigger, until the wind changes and the creature gets his scent If this waiting process took more than 6 seconds, then I think your DM took your suprise round action away from you.
blackjackg 11-21-06, 07:44 PM	Oh, ok. Yeah... I still haven't gotten the new combat action system quite down yet. Thanks for the input, I'll try and remember for next time.
Molitor 11-22-06, 03:01 AM	Pay close attention to table 8-2 on page 141 of the Players Handbook (PHB). I also was raised on older versions of this game and remember vividly the "nocked" arrow condition. All in all I cannot add anything to what Matthew77 has written, it was spot on and correct from what I know.