Initiator Level: round up or round down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Initiator Level: round up or round down? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
weepingminotaur
02-28-08, 02:30 PM Hi,

I've done search after search and on the official site for information on this but have been unsuccessful.

Does the initiator level (for TOB maneuvers) round up or down for non-martial-adept classes?

I know that unless otherwise stated, you always round down numbers. However, most of the sample characters in TOB seem to have been built by rounding up IL.

I'm currently in the process of making a warblade for a campaign my friend will be starting next week, and this issue will actually have a significant impact on my build.

If anyone has any information on a ruling, or a link to an official answer from wizards, or any info at all, please let me know.

Thanks!
nightwyrm
02-28-08, 03:35 PM Down. Always down.

Also, sample characters are always wrong. Just look at their skills pts.
Vaelan
02-28-08, 06:13 PM You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible.
I_roll_ones
02-28-08, 08:03 PM I'd round down, and ignore the characters. They have a picture of one using a bow! And there is a paladin of Mielikki running around the site who is illegal as far as I know. They could just be meant as NPC encounters, so they get pumped up illegally to act as mobs, not PC's.
runestar
02-28-08, 08:21 PM Down. Always down.

Also, sample characters are always wrong. Just look at their skills pts.

The downside of making absolute statements is that I just need to find a single example of an npc who has not been statted incorrectly, and your entire credibility goes right down the drain. At least, the sample crusader and swordsage entries look accurate enough.;)

You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible.

On the other hand, it means that there are some which are accurate. Only problem is that when such a discrepancy occurs, we have no way of telling if it is the entry which is erronous, or our own understanding of the rules which is flawed.

Yes, the general rule is to round down, but there is nothing in ToB which reinforces or dispels this notion.

While I too would probably round down, the npcs in ToB set enough precedent to cast reasonable doubt in this area, that much I concede.:)
Zherog
02-28-08, 08:36 PM ROUNDING FRACTIONS

In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.

Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.

So, unless the calculation for the initiator states otherwise, this primary rule applies.
weepingminotaur
02-29-08, 07:30 AM Down. Always down.

Not always. Number of skill tricks known rounds up, actually. :) (I found this last night accidentally)
DrMorganes
02-29-08, 08:20 AM That only serves to underscore what Zherog said. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the primary rule (i.e., "round down") applies.
Merestil Haye
02-29-08, 08:25 AM Another example of an exception to the rules is skill ranks. You are allowed half a rank in a cross-class skill. But again, it explicitly says that you do not round the number of ranks. (You still drop fractions for the check result though).
weepingminotaur
02-29-08, 11:00 AM That only serves to underscore what Zherog said. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the primary rule (i.e., "round down") applies.

I know, I was just being a pain. ;)

In any case, I just wanted to know if I was missing a ruling somewhere, but I guess I'm not.
Sinfire Titan
03-01-08, 12:19 AM You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible.

So is Cust Serv.
Vaelan
03-01-08, 01:13 AM So is Cust Serv.
Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ.
Tectorman
03-01-08, 01:44 AM Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ.

I dunno about that. I'd like to think that what I asked were intelligent questions (you wouldn't know it by 2/3 of the answers I got back, though).
Zherog
03-01-08, 09:36 AM Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ.

I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers.
Ecalsneerg
03-01-08, 01:52 PM I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers.

Out of interest, what was the question and the answers?
Vaelan
03-01-08, 03:45 PM I dunno about that. I'd like to think that what I asked were intelligent questions (you wouldn't know it by 2/3 of the answers I got back, though).
I'm not saying they weren't intelligent questions, I'm saying that the questions I have seen don't take into account that CustServ probably knows less about the specific rules than we do.

You don't go to CustServ to get a good ruling, you go to CustServ to get the thin veneer of officiality that shuts people up. :P CustServ can take a question to R&D though, which, from what I have seen, produces a much higher quality of response.

I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers.
Your question must have been terribly vague! ;)

Or it covered one of the many questions that does not have a clear answer within the rules.
Zherog
03-01-08, 04:37 PM Out of interest, what was the question and the answers?

The question was: "Do you lose the class features of a prestige class if you no longer meet the requirements?" The e-mail I sent included quotes from (at the time) two of the four "Complete" books where it said you did, then pointed out that the DMG and the other Complete books were silent on the matter.

One CS rep said the two books that mentioned it were intended to override the (lack of) rule from the DMG - even though one of the books that was silent on the matter came out after a book that added the rule.

The other CS rep said the two Complete books were incorrect, and said that while you could no longer gain levels if you fail to meet the requirements, you do not lose what you already have.

I tend to believe the latter is more correct; otherwise, a Dragon Disciple would lose all his/her/its class benefits upon gaining 10th level of the class. ;)
Sinfire Titan
03-02-08, 01:13 AM The question was: "Do you lose the class features of a prestige class if you no longer meet the requirements?" The e-mail I sent included quotes from (at the time) two of the four "Complete" books where it said you did, then pointed out that the DMG and the other Complete books were silent on the matter.

One CS rep said the two books that mentioned it were intended to override the (lack of) rule from the DMG - even though one of the books that was silent on the matter came out after a book that added the rule.

The other CS rep said the two Complete books were incorrect, and said that while you could no longer gain levels if you fail to meet the requirements, you do not lose what you already have.

I tend to believe the latter is more correct; otherwise, a Dragon Disciple would lose all his/her/its class benefits upon gaining 10th level of the class. ;)

THis is the reason I use the Rules Compendium+SRD+Common Sense. It has made me the DM I am today, and I feel that only your own logic can answer the questions you have the way you will understand them.

Sure, it is a very hit-or-miss ideal, but it has worked for me for two years now.
Khadmus
03-02-08, 08:55 AM There's no such thing as common sense.
But you admitted it's hit-and-miss; and it's probably the best thing we have; so okie.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weepingminotaur 02-28-08, 02:30 PM	Hi, I've done search after search and on the official site for information on this but have been unsuccessful. Does the initiator level (for TOB maneuvers) round up or down for non-martial-adept classes? I know that unless otherwise stated, you always round down numbers. However, most of the sample characters in TOB seem to have been built by rounding up IL. I'm currently in the process of making a warblade for a campaign my friend will be starting next week, and this issue will actually have a significant impact on my build. If anyone has any information on a ruling, or a link to an official answer from wizards, or any info at all, please let me know. Thanks!
nightwyrm 02-28-08, 03:35 PM	Down. Always down. Also, sample characters are always wrong. Just look at their skills pts.
Vaelan 02-28-08, 06:13 PM	You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible.
I_roll_ones 02-28-08, 08:03 PM	I'd round down, and ignore the characters. They have a picture of one using a bow! And there is a paladin of Mielikki running around the site who is illegal as far as I know. They could just be meant as NPC encounters, so they get pumped up illegally to act as mobs, not PC's.
runestar 02-28-08, 08:21 PM	Down. Always down. Also, sample characters are always wrong. Just look at their skills pts. The downside of making absolute statements is that I just need to find a single example of an npc who has not been statted incorrectly, and your entire credibility goes right down the drain. At least, the sample crusader and swordsage entries look accurate enough.;) You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible. On the other hand, it means that there are some which are accurate. Only problem is that when such a discrepancy occurs, we have no way of telling if it is the entry which is erronous, or our own understanding of the rules which is flawed. Yes, the general rule is to round down, but there is nothing in ToB which reinforces or dispels this notion. While I too would probably round down, the npcs in ToB set enough precedent to cast reasonable doubt in this area, that much I concede.:)
Zherog 02-28-08, 08:36 PM	ROUNDING FRACTIONS In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger. Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1. So, unless the calculation for the initiator states otherwise, this primary rule applies.
weepingminotaur 02-29-08, 07:30 AM	Down. Always down. Not always. Number of skill tricks known rounds up, actually. :) (I found this last night accidentally)
DrMorganes 02-29-08, 08:20 AM	That only serves to underscore what Zherog said. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the primary rule (i.e., "round down") applies.
Merestil Haye 02-29-08, 08:25 AM	Another example of an exception to the rules is skill ranks. You are allowed half a rank in a cross-class skill. But again, it explicitly says that you do not round the number of ranks. (You still drop fractions for the check result though).
weepingminotaur 02-29-08, 11:00 AM	That only serves to underscore what Zherog said. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the primary rule (i.e., "round down") applies. I know, I was just being a pain. ;) In any case, I just wanted to know if I was missing a ruling somewhere, but I guess I'm not.
Sinfire Titan 03-01-08, 12:19 AM	You could always email CustServ. Sample characters are wrong too often to be credible. So is Cust Serv.
Vaelan 03-01-08, 01:13 AM	So is Cust Serv. Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ.
Tectorman 03-01-08, 01:44 AM	Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ. I dunno about that. I'd like to think that what I asked were intelligent questions (you wouldn't know it by 2/3 of the answers I got back, though).
Zherog 03-01-08, 09:36 AM	Garbage in, garbage out. Take a look at the questions that provoke idiotic answers from CustServ. I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers.
Ecalsneerg 03-01-08, 01:52 PM	I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers. Out of interest, what was the question and the answers?
Vaelan 03-01-08, 03:45 PM	I dunno about that. I'd like to think that what I asked were intelligent questions (you wouldn't know it by 2/3 of the answers I got back, though). I'm not saying they weren't intelligent questions, I'm saying that the questions I have seen don't take into account that CustServ probably knows less about the specific rules than we do. You don't go to CustServ to get a good ruling, you go to CustServ to get the thin veneer of officiality that shuts people up. :P CustServ can take a question to R&D though, which, from what I have seen, produces a much higher quality of response. I once sent the exact same question to Customer Service twice, and received two different answers. Your question must have been terribly vague! ;) Or it covered one of the many questions that does not have a clear answer within the rules.
Zherog 03-01-08, 04:37 PM	Out of interest, what was the question and the answers? The question was: "Do you lose the class features of a prestige class if you no longer meet the requirements?" The e-mail I sent included quotes from (at the time) two of the four "Complete" books where it said you did, then pointed out that the DMG and the other Complete books were silent on the matter. One CS rep said the two books that mentioned it were intended to override the (lack of) rule from the DMG - even though one of the books that was silent on the matter came out after a book that added the rule. The other CS rep said the two Complete books were incorrect, and said that while you could no longer gain levels if you fail to meet the requirements, you do not lose what you already have. I tend to believe the latter is more correct; otherwise, a Dragon Disciple would lose all his/her/its class benefits upon gaining 10th level of the class. ;)
Sinfire Titan 03-02-08, 01:13 AM	The question was: "Do you lose the class features of a prestige class if you no longer meet the requirements?" The e-mail I sent included quotes from (at the time) two of the four "Complete" books where it said you did, then pointed out that the DMG and the other Complete books were silent on the matter. One CS rep said the two books that mentioned it were intended to override the (lack of) rule from the DMG - even though one of the books that was silent on the matter came out after a book that added the rule. The other CS rep said the two Complete books were incorrect, and said that while you could no longer gain levels if you fail to meet the requirements, you do not lose what you already have. I tend to believe the latter is more correct; otherwise, a Dragon Disciple would lose all his/her/its class benefits upon gaining 10th level of the class. ;) THis is the reason I use the Rules Compendium+SRD+Common Sense. It has made me the DM I am today, and I feel that only your own logic can answer the questions you have the way you will understand them. Sure, it is a very hit-or-miss ideal, but it has worked for me for two years now.
Khadmus 03-02-08, 08:55 AM	There's no such thing as common sense. But you admitted it's hit-and-miss; and it's probably the best thing we have; so okie.