Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wezLee 10-03-07, 09:37 AM	This has probably already been discussed before, but I can't find any solutions for my problem. I've read the Factotum handbook on the forums and several other Factotum threads (builds, problems, etc...). That's why I decided to play a Factotum in my current campaign. The problem So we had the first session last week, I had prepared my character, a level 2 changeling factotum and started in a heavy roleplaying setting in Sharn. Roleplaying wise all went well, great even. Eventually we ventured into the first dungeon and we came upon a broken, by rope strung antique "elevator". The shaft was to deep to jump, seeing as a fall could kill us three times over. But fortunately through a decent Knowledge(Engineering) check I managed to make sure that it could go down at least once. Once we all stepped in, the elevator starts heading down. During the ride we encountered 2 pseudodragons who were not keen of uninvited guests and they started chewing on the ropes of the elevator (there were 4 in total). Since we can't reach them and they are unworthy of spell/power use we all start shooting our bows at them. Everyone is missing besides me since I'm using my inspiration to fuel my attack bonus with my Int modifier. I used all my inspirations points to fuel my attack bonus as well as my damage. In the end I manage killing them, practically on my own since I got 90% of the hits. End of session. On a side note: I'm taking the Font of Inspiration feats to up my Ip's. At the moment I've got 6 Ip's at level 2. As I am walking home with my DM, he tells me my Factotum is overpowered and that I need to do something about if before next session, this is considering both mechanics as roleplaying. So my question to you readers is, what should I do? Limiting it to a per day ability is out of the question. Should I cut back on the FoI feat? This is a per encounter ability so it would be stupid of me to not deplete them every encounter. What about roleplaying wise? It's not like I can roleplay a boost of inspiration every single time. In an average session on level 2 that would easily come up to 24 inspiration boosts and more... Thank you for reading this far and I hope to get some feedback, if you require any more info just ask.
DyloniusFunk 10-03-07, 09:59 AM	I don't know about the Factonium class but i'm assumeing your Inspirations are like action points in that they give you a bonus but you only get a certain number of them. If you blow them all on one encounter that is your choice. EDIT: Missed the part about it being a per encounter ability. Again not knowing what they actually do it sounds like your DM got overwhelmed by the abiliity in the same way some DMs get overwhelmed by the TOB manuavers. Try talking to your DM and coming up with a compromise. Maybe you try to limit the use of the IP to 3 or so per encounter unless it's a desperate situation. If i knew the class i could give better advice.
NinjaPenguin 10-03-07, 10:12 AM	Make it clear to him in a nice way: Inspiration boosts are your shtick, its what your class does. Fighters fight, Rogues sneak, Spellcasters cast, and you can do a little bit of everything, but not a lot. You have to focus on one thing at a time in an encounter and it eats away at your limited per/encounter resources faster the better you do at it. So yes, you can shoot off a few really sweet shots with your bow. Then you're sunk for the rest of the encounter. It is a very intimidating thing, the per-encounter abilities they have made lately, but talk it over and assure him that, given a few more sessions, everything will come into perspective. Essentially, just ask for a little more time for the trial run to show that one encounter isn't a precedent.
PantherFern 10-03-07, 10:19 AM	The shaft was to deep to jump, seeing as a fall could kill us three times over. Since we can't reach them and they are unworthy of spell/power use we all start shooting our bows at them. Everyone is missing besides me since I'm using my inspiration to fuel my attack bonus with my Int modifier. I don't know what a factotum is or how the rest of your party sits, but it sounds to me like a we-die-if-these-guys-eat-the-rope situation should be more than worthy of a couple spells. If the rest of your party doesn't see this then it sounds to me (based solely on what you've given here) like you were using your resources as you should and your party wasn't.
wezLee 10-03-07, 10:38 AM	@DyloniusFunk If I limit my Inspiration points to 3 per encounter, the feats I'm taking are pretty much useless most of the time seeing a BBEG or dire situation don't come around so often. (Btw, if you have acces to it the factotum is listed in Dungeonscape) @PantherFern There were 4 ropes with each 4 hit points and pseudo dragons only have a bite attack of 1 damage per bite so it would've taken at least 16 rounds to get them all, if they got through the hardness at least. I wacked both of them in 5 rounds on my own. But I think I'm going to try and follow NinjaPenguin's advice. But oh boy at level 8 the **** is going to hit the fan... Just need some roleplaying aspect to inspiration, but I'll be able to work that out. Thanks for the swift replies.
Keenath 10-03-07, 10:44 AM	I would tend to agree. It sounds to me like that encounter should've been where the others pulled out spells and powers, and they didn't. The fact that they failed to use resoruces and you did not, doesn't make you overpowered.
DrMorganes 10-03-07, 10:55 AM	*sigh* It's not that the Factotum is overpowered. It's not, for reasons already mentioned. The issue here is that your DM was very likely completely blindsided by the "per encounter" nature of the class's abilities. That's HIS fault, not yours. (Incidentally, are you sure you completely understand how the class works? 4 pseudodragons by yourself in 5 rounds at Level 2 IS a bit much...) Honestly, this is not a new development. As I understand it, the Bo9S runs on "per enounter" mechanics. It's a pre-test of 4th Edition mechanics, by the way, and a LOT of DMs don't allow it because they don't understand how to balance their encounters. Still... Sit your DM down some afternoon outside the game and run him though the ins and outs of the class. Show him what it can - and more importantly cannot - do. Let him get a feel for its strengths and weaknesses. Offer suggestions on how to take advantage of the class when he is planning encounters. Odds are once he gets a feel for it, he'll like it. Or at least not hate it.
DruidWannabe 10-03-07, 11:09 AM	Factotum is not an overpowered class. If you and your DM do decied to limit some stop taking Font of Inspiriation. (It is from a Forgotten Realms Web Enhancment anyway) and while that won't completely stop you it will limit you a bit more.
wezLee 10-03-07, 11:30 AM	(Incidentally, are you sure you completely understand how the class works? 4 pseudodragons by yourself in 5 rounds at Level 2 IS a bit much...) I perfectly understand how the class works, it were 2 pseudodragons with 15hp both, with some decent rolls and a +4 int modifier it is not that unlikely to kill them in 5 rounds. As for the FR feat FoI, he ok'd it before the start of the game since it's the only feat which affects a factotums unique class ability. But the problem probably was that he had never seen a factotum in practice before.
Guardian1 10-03-07, 01:50 PM	What I would like to know is, what were the rest of the party, class/lvl wise? I would also think that knowing the total attacks for the other PC's would be of importance. If they happened to be getting crap on their rolls, and you were just playing your character smart, then the DM saying that your character is overpowerd seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to me. But that's just how I see it.
albinomonkeyking 10-03-07, 03:09 PM	I perfectly understand how the class works, it were 2 pseudodragons with 15hp both, with some decent rolls and a +4 int modifier it is not that unlikely to kill them in 5 rounds. That doesn't sound overpowered at all. 5 rounds, 30 hit points? That's 6 damage a round for a lvl 2. I think your DM is just overreacting because he didn't fully grasp your class. I would explain that to him and show him the damage, that isn't insane at all. Considering how badly a lvl 1 barbarian can tear things up I wouldn't worry. I hope your DM reconsiders before an unnecessary nerf.
wezLee 10-03-07, 07:18 PM	What I would like to know is, what were the rest of the party, class/lvl wise? I would also think that knowing the total attacks for the other PC's would be of importance. If they happened to be getting crap on their rolls, and you were just playing your character smart, then the DM saying that your character is overpowerd seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to me. But that's just how I see it. Party as it stands now: - level 1 avariel wizard (without wings -_- adjusted avariel for +1 LA) - level 2 kalashtar psion - level 2 warforged spiked chain fighter - level 2 changeling factotum (me) Tonight's session went a bit better, although we had a major fight at the start about the factotum. Situation as it is now: if I can motivate myself through roleplay to use an inspiration points, no frowns
DM Zoc 10-03-07, 08:19 PM	I'm not quite getting what you're saying. If you can motivate yourself through role-play to use your inspiration points, then it's okay? Inspiration points are what the factotum does, and you shouldn't put any more thought into it than when a warlock decides to use Eldritch Blast. It would be like needing to justify the rogue moving into flanking position so he can backstab. That being said, it's no more the DM's fault than it is yours. Yes, the DM should have understood the mechanics before allowing you to play the class. On the other hand, it's your job as the one introducing the new class to explain every potentially overpowered thing you might end up doing, before you introduce the character. If you sat down and explained, this is what he can do one round, and then he can do something else entirely in the next round, and at the start of the next encounter he'll be up to full again with all of his options returned, then it's entirely the DM's fault entirely.
wezLee 10-04-07, 07:08 AM	Little example of the roleplaying motivation. We entered a big room with a chandaleer in the middle of the room. A quick Knowledge Engineering check revealed that it was pretty unstable and hanging on only 2 hinges. Then we were ambushed by 8 tirbana eyewings (MMV, 172), I was the only one to notice them at first and got to move in the surprise round. I intimidated half of them, 4 attacked me, 4 attack the psion, fortunately he was standing under the chandaleer aswell. My plan was to let the chandaleer drop and then reflex save my way out of it, pretty risky I know (wasn't really considering the psion with low reflex saves at, but he could've always used an action point if necessary). This time I was allowed to use my inspiration points because I was in dire need (4 touch attacks per round) and because my plan was well a bit out of the box. I was able to shoot one hinge loose, so the chandaleer was set swinging, he probably overlooked that fact and went on like I had still one hinge to go. I died next round... I can't use my IP's all the time, but heck it's better than limiting it to /day or finding another DM.
Lanky Ogre Baggy Pants 10-04-07, 11:14 AM	Well if your dead I'm not sure how much it matters any more, but no its not really better. Does the fighter have to roleplay how much power attack to use, does the psion have to roleplay using psionics, does the...etc. Class features should NEVER require roleplaying to use.
albinomonkeyking 10-04-07, 02:20 PM	It looks like you are resigned to your fate, which is unfortunate. I would continue trying to persuade them or maybe have your DM head to Whats a DM to do? to get his answer. I'm pretty sure unless you aren't telling us something that everyone would agree this a rather ridiculous setup. Your DM is inexperienced and doesn't know how to handle you so he decides whenever he can't he will just claim 'not enough rp' and then viola, you can't use it. I'm sorry, but that sucks. I would hit the DM with a folding chair, it's the only viable option left.
FrostWolf 10-04-07, 04:24 PM	Yeah, your DM needs to sit down anr read it over. And making you use it the way he was got you killed, so it couldn't have been too powerful. Time to play a CoDzilla and show him real power.
kriskey 10-04-07, 04:57 PM	If it's any consolation, this "problem" (pretending for a moment that this was truly an imbalance problem) is way more the DM's fault than yours. The responsibility of knowing the rules and potential imbalances that will and won't work in his campaign is mainly his. When he allows something, he has an obligation to study and understand it. Basically he screwed you. Not the other way around. He wasted your time and quashed your fun and excitement because he didn't know the rules (that he originally authorized) well enough. Sometimes, of course, a DM realizes he made a mistake and has to back out of it. But, he should be very apologetic at least. I'd make sure he realizes that, so at least next time this can be avoided.
kriskey 10-04-07, 05:01 PM	Double post.
Ongorth 10-05-07, 11:37 AM	If it's any consolation, this "problem" (pretending for a moment that this was truly an imbalance problem) is way more the DM's fault than yours. The responsibility of knowing the rules and potential imbalances that will and won't work in his campaign is mainly his. When he allows something, he has an obligation to study and understand it. Passing the buck a little? The player is in charge of their character. Its the player's job to know if the character is going beyond the campaign's desired power level if that is the case to find a way to fix it. The DM can certainly make suggestions, but the onus of making a character that works in the context of the game is the player's repsonibility, even if that means revision due to unforseen complications. Really, its counterproductive to "hold" people to their decisions. We all know D&D isn't perfectly playtested even though they have proffessional staff to do so, so why do we expect the average DM to be able to make perfect judgement calls and stick to their initial impressions when they may well be entirely wrong and counter to the goals and enjoyment of the game?
kriskey 10-05-07, 01:05 PM	The player is in charge of their character. Its the player's job to know if the character is going beyond the campaign's desired power level if that is the case to find a way to fix it. Couldn't disagree more. Really, its counterproductive to "hold" people to their decisions. We all know D&D isn't perfectly playtested even though they have proffessional staff to do so, so why do we expect the average DM to be able to make perfect judgement calls and stick to their initial impressions when they may well be entirely wrong and counter to the goals and enjoyment of the game? I agree. I said as much.
Ongorth 10-05-07, 02:59 PM	I agree. I said as much. Not really. Saying that the DM "screwed" the player means you are holding the DM to an unrealistic standard. Not only does the DM have to create the game's power level, but they also have to make the players characters for them? I mean, they don't have to put the numbers on the sheets, but requiring the DM to approve or disapprove every last thing a player can and can't put on their character sheet is basically doing that. Worse yet, its doing it out of context. When a player is picking features for their character, they can do it in the context of that character where the power level can be evaluated in terms of what it will do as opposed to what it could do. Trying to play the restriction game doesn't work because it misses the point. If you want to allow players to build there character and you also want to have a certain power level, then you have to actively do that and not try to just "judge and restrict" the power level of individual material. Give the players the guidelines and make them do it. They are the one's that actually know what they want and know how their character is going to be played! Not the DM!
kriskey 10-05-07, 03:25 PM	Not really. Saying that the DM "screwed" the player means you are holding the DM to an unrealistic standard. Not only does the DM have to create the game's power level, but they also have to make the players characters for them? I mean, they don't have to put the numbers on the sheets, but requiring the DM to approve or disapprove every last thing a player can and can't put on their character sheet is basically doing that. Worse yet, its doing it out of context. When a player is picking features for their character, they can do it in the context of that character where the power level can be evaluated in terms of what it will do as opposed to what it could do. Trying to play the restriction game doesn't work because it misses the point. If you want to allow players to build there character and you also want to have a certain power level, then you have to actively do that and not try to just "judge and restrict" the power level of individual material. Give the players the guidelines and make them do it. They are the one's that actually know what they want and know how their character is going to be played! Not the DM! All right. To compromise, I'll admit that character creation requires a certain level of cooperation between the player and a DM and maybe the term "screwed" is a bit harsh. But, by your own admission, the DM sets the game standards. He did not do so well (or at all based on my interpretation of the story), in not doing so he probably made a mistake, and he is as or more culpable in setting back the enjoyment of the game. It is not my contention that the DM has to control every last choice a player makes. It is my contention, however, a DM making power judgments on character classes before allowing them in his game is smoother and more fun than a DM making power judgments after a game has already started. As I stated before, I understand mistakes. I would just want to ensure the DM was made aware that the problem is as much his own responsibility... possibility for the constructive purpose of him being more careful and communicative next time around.