Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LanceWork 01-21-04, 03:39 PM	So my regular DM has been out of commission for a while, and one of our gaming group decides to do a fun one-shot adventure to ease our withdrawal symptoms till our regular DM gets back. Normally this wouldn't be unusual enough to force a longtime lurker to actually register and post, but he told us to make up CR 25 characters! No holds barred, no books barred, no races barred! :confused: Whats a very busy player to do? And mind you, thats CR 25, not level 25. We can use any monster race, any template that is listed in any WotC book. /boggle I haven't the faintest idea where to start! With a full-time job, family (the two cutest daughters ever born!) :D and volunteering with my church's youth group I have very little free time to research the staggering possibilities i have been presented with, let alone come up with something good. So I have presented it to the experts! :cool: Please help me out with the sickest, twinkest, rules-raping, nastiest CR 25 character you can think of! If it must be a caster, then it must, but I'm not up to date on all the spell changes in 3.5. Thanks in advance!
der_gogo 01-21-04, 04:38 PM	A Balor - Fighter? Solar - Deepwood Sniper? Or just a plain great wyrm gold dragon... :D
adamwat 01-21-04, 04:39 PM	Three words: Character Optimization Board (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=339)
xirr2000 01-21-04, 04:42 PM	I'm thinking a Pit Fiend with 5 levels of Bard. Great big axe that is his mandolin/guitar. All the lady devils will be after him......
Caltsar 01-21-04, 04:47 PM	You wanting some CR-25 creatures? Here are some around CR-25 (give or take 3): Draconomicon: -Dracolich (Ancient Blue) CR-23 -Mountain landwyrm CR-22 -Great Wyrm Battle Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Chaos Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Howling Dragon CR-23 -Great Wyrm Pyroclastic Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Radiant Dragon CR-23 -Great Wyrm Rust Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Styx Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Tarterian Dragon CR-23 -Shadow Dragon CR-24 -Vampiric Dragon? Monster Manual 2: -Chaos Roc CR-22 -Phoenix CR-24 -Dread Linnorm CR-25 -Leviathan CR-25 -Hellfire Wyrm CR-26 -Mountain Giant CR-26 -Corpse Tearer CR-28 -Fiendwyrm CR-28 -Great Wyrm Amethyst Dragon CR-25 -Great Wyrm Crystal Dragon CR-23 -Great Wyrm Emerald Dragon CR-24 -Great Wyrm Sapphire Dragon CR-24 -Great Wyrm Topaz Dragon CR-25 Monster Manual 3.5 -Solar (angel) CR-23 -Great Wyrm Black Dragon CR-22 -Great Wyrm Brass Dragon CR-23 -Great Wyrm Green Dragon CR-24 -Great Wyrm Blue Dragon CR-25 -Great Wyrm Copper Dragon CR-25 -Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon CR-25 -Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR-26 -Great Wyrm Silver Dragon CR-26 -Great Wyrm Gold Dragon CR-27 That's everything I have that's CR-22 and above. This doesn't count the animals and stuff in the appendixes. ::EDIT:: Just noticed this. Maybe an "Advanced Dragon" from the Draconomicon? the example is CR-40. Page 100
LanceWork 01-21-04, 05:23 PM	Thanks for the link to the COB! I didn't know it existed! What a resource. I'm not limited to just a moster race, but the character can be any mix of monster CR plus character levels plus templates if any.
starfire311 01-21-04, 06:15 PM	paragon and pseudonatural templates are nice.
celloshane 01-21-04, 09:29 PM	I assumed you wanted a playable character, so I whipped this together: Jukkang Half Red Dragon Troll Fighter 6/ Barbarian 12 Str 16 + 12 +8 = 36 + 4 ( +15) Dex 12 + 4 = 16 (+3) Con 14 + 12 +2 = 28 (+9) Int 14 - 4 +2 = 12 (+1) Wis 12 - 2 = 10 (+0) Cha 10 - 4 +2 = 8 (-1) Hit Die 6D12 + 9 + 6D10 +9 + 12D12+9 = 354 BAB +22/+117/+12/+7 AC 10 -1 (Size) +9 (Natural) +3 (Dexterity) +8 (Bracers) +5 (Amulet) = 34 Fort 27 Ref 11 Will 8 Skill Points 63 (racial) +61 (Barbarian) +18 (Fighter) =136 Feats 3 + 4 + 7 = 14 Multiattack (Monster Manual), Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Extend Rage(Complete Warrior), Power Critical, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute(Complete Warrior), Shock Trooper(Complete Warrior), Weapon Focus (Great Axe), Weapon Specialization (Great Axe), Awesome Blow (Monster Manual), Greater Resiliancy Space/Reach 10ft/10ft Base Speed 30 feet +10 Special Qualities- Large Size -1 Ac, -1 Attack, -4 Hide, +4 Grapple, Double Lift & Carry of Medium Characters Wings, fly at 80 feet Average Maneuverability Darkvision 60 feet Low light vision Ac +9 natural Natural Weapons Claw (1D6), Wing (1D6), and Bite (1D8) Greater Rage 4/day +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC, 19 rounds Fast Movement Trap Sense +4 Improved Uncanny Dodge Damage Reduction 3/- Special Attacks- Rend, Damage 2D6 +22 Breath Weapon 1/day 30 cone fire 6D8 damage Reflex half damage DC 10+1/2 racial HD +Con modifier = DC 22 Special Qualities- Regeneration 5, scent, Immune to fire, sleep, paralysis 440,000gp in resources (DMG135) +5 Vicious Flaming Burst Great Axe (98,000gp), +2 Explosive(CW) Mighty Composite Longbow(+10) (51,100gp), Greater Ring of Energy Resistance (Acid) (44,000gp), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000gp), Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000gp), Ioun Stone, lavender and green ellipsoid (absorbs spells below 8th level) (40,000gp), Cloak of Displacement (Major) (50,000gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000gp) Attack +48 Great Axe (3D6+25 +1D6+2D6 X3) Full Attack +48/+43/+38/+33 Great Axe (3D6+25 +1D6+2D6 X3) and + 33 Bite (1D8+15) and 2 Wings +33 (1D6+7) Or 2 Claws +33 (1D6 +7) and 2 Wings +33 (1D6+7) and Bite +33 (1D8 +15) I’d take this guy over a Balor or Pit Fiend any day! I used standard point buy (32) to determine ability scores. I gave average Hit Points! I did not assign skill points, but I chose the feats I felt were best. An ogre mage would have worked as well as a troll, but the ECL would have been higher. His combination of Power Attack, Shock Trooper and Combat Brute set up some very interesting combat situations. Plus, you can Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, and then Bull Rush again! Besides, how cool does a Half Red Dragon Troll look! I kind of threw it together so check for mistakes.
Juca 01-22-04, 05:53 AM	Well, if you wanna be really mean you can use that obscure rule (don't remember exactly where it is, MM or DMHB, version 3.5) that says that certain monster have a non-prefered class (gnoll have non-prefered classes of wizard and sorcerer as per example), when they advance in these classes they only count as half the CR (for the classes only) so a Gnoll (CR 1) Fighter 24 is a CR 25 monster, while a Gnoll Wizard 24 is a CR 13!!! Totally insane but it is, so you your DM is being that literal and you're felling really evil show up with your Gnoll Wizard 48 for the kill! But know you that it is a very lame and abusable rule and I not that sure that its the way that rule works A more reasonally choice is to go for a Moonbeast (Monster Manual 2), CR 16 and then take a few levels in barbarian and taking improved natural attack, with all its attacks it can be very scary and also have a wide array of magical abilities! Or a Will'o Wisp (CR 6) Rogue 9/Assassin10. Can became invisible at will, will have and Ungodly AC and dexterity and can deliver a +10d6 sneak TOUCH attack with Death Attack every three rounds... And have evasion and is imune to all but a few spells
Endarire 01-22-04, 07:00 AM	Also note that a half-dragon troll is immune to all but acid damage; scary. That or only acid does lethal damage. -EE
dantedarkstar 01-22-04, 07:06 AM	Personally, I would ask for Solar Cleric (assuming that cleric levels will stack with innate 20 levels of cleric of solar, you you would be taking epic cleric levels actually). Well, with all of his special abilities and things, you can't go wrong... Wait ! ... :devil: Look up ELH for some abomination with CR 25 or less. Particularly ... ugh... forgot the name... the demon-type abomination which gets immunity to any spell it experienced (althrough only form given caster). Besides, abominations have DR 0, and thus some kewl immunities (all draining, ability damage, polymorphing and more) Or eventually try Tarrasque Barbarian 5 :smirk: Edit: Or even better Tarrasque Cleric or Wizard. THAT would be... interesting.
DM Zoc 01-22-04, 07:37 AM	Commoner 25. No, wait, Commoner 24/Expert 1.
starfire311 01-22-04, 08:33 AM	I also like half-clay Golem Ocean Giant They are immune to piercing, Bludgeoning and slashing damage.
Aranamarunda 01-22-04, 09:14 AM	@ DM Zoc: a KOBOLD Commoner 24/ Expert 1:D
Tristan Avon Granvania 01-22-04, 09:51 AM	Juca, one thing about the obscure rule that you missed.... non associated classes only raise the CR by 1/2 until they exceed the standard hit die for the creature. For a gnoll, with it's one or two hit dice, that would be after level one or two. ~Evil DM
Juca 01-22-04, 12:09 PM	Well, maybe that gnoll wizards wasnt the better of the ideas at all... :D
Xalxika 01-22-04, 12:37 PM	Give it a few Barbarian or Fighter levels, add in the Gigantic Weapon Feat and you'll have a superior tank like all hell. It's one of my own creations: Stats are: Large Outsider Hit Dice: 12d8 +72 Initiative: +6 Speed: 60ft, 50ft swim Armor: 30 (-1 size, +6 Dex, +15 Natural) Attacks: (6 arms)+1 Vile Bloodfeeding Greatswords (BoVD) +22/17/12/22/22/22/22/22, Bite +20, Claw +20, Tail +20, or Gore +20 Damage: Greatsword 2d6+9+2 Vile+Special (the Bloodfeeding), Bite 1d8 +8+ poison, Claw 1d6 +8, Tail 1d8 +8 +wound, Gore 1d8 +8 Face/Reach: 10ft by 10ft/10ft Special Attacks: Poison Bite (Fort DC 22 or fall unconscious 1d6 hours), Pounce, Wounding Tail, Summon Tanar'ri, Spell-like Abilities Special Qualities: Phase Organ (kython ability from BoVD), SR 20 (equal to DC), DR 25/+4 (goes up 5/+1 every 5 LA), Tanar'ri Qualities Saves: 14/14/9 Abilities: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 22, Cha 19 Skills: Balance, Intuit Dir., and Mov. Sil +21; Climb and Jump +23; Hide and Wild. Lore +29; Listen and Spot +31; Read Lips and Search +24 Feats: Quick Draw, Multiattack, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Mortalbane (Inflict Serious Wounds; BoVD), Vile Martial Strike (Greatsword) CR: 20 Treasure: 6 +1 Vile Bloodfeeding Greatswords, double coins, double goods, triple items This creature can use a Gore Attack as a minotaur can when charging, adding 4d8 +8 damage. This creature is a born destroyer and annihilator. Nrogorna serve the highest of the Demon Princes like Orcus, Grazz't, and Demogorgon as heralds. It's favored class is the Mortal Hunter (BoVD) if female, and Barbarian if Male. Hope that gets ideas in your head. You could also look at the Warrior of Darkness for advancements. Hope that helps. Xal
wdarkk 01-22-04, 12:51 PM	Solar Cleric and Half-Golem Ocean Giant seem nifty. I'd be legitimate and use the chance to be a Sacred Warder of Bahamut Silver Dragon.
celloshane 01-22-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Endarire Also note that a half-dragon troll is immune to all but acid damage; scary. That or only acid does lethal damage. -EE correct, only acid does lethal damage. Note the Ring of Acid Resistance 20 :smirk: Incidently, I'd like to point out that unlike a Tanar'ri or others, Jukkang can't be banished back to his home plane. Not bad for a guy who's axe deals 6D6+25 damage with each attack:ayyyy!:
Endarire 01-22-04, 01:05 PM	Just get an item with permanent Favor of Ilmater, a L4 Cleric spell from Magic of Faerun that makes a target subdual immune. Since you're epic, get an item of acid immunity and laugh away. You could also wish to become immune to subdual, but ask your DM about these first! -EE
SiegeSage 01-22-04, 04:33 PM	If you scout around the Character Optimization board you can find the thread where they get an ECL 20(ish) Hulking hurler to do approximately 562,000,000 avg damage ( plus 1d6 fire) per attack with his Giant +1 flaming Rock of returning. (That's a HALF BILLION damage on average) :)
wdarkk 01-22-04, 05:23 PM	:heehee "+STR but that isn't important" :heehee
starfire311 01-22-04, 06:46 PM	I think str was included.
LanceWork 01-22-04, 07:09 PM	Celloshane, you are the freaking bomb! :cool: Thats awesome! I stayed up late last night with only the 3 Core 3.5 books, but the best I could come up with was a Titan with 4 levels of fighter. It was pretty sick, a bit more HP than Jukkang and some nice innate abilities, but I think Jukang wins because of his immunities! I don't have all the supplemental books though. Is there a resource on-line that will show where all the feats come from? I'm sure my DM is going to want to know if Jukang is legit or not! :D
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-22-04, 08:26 PM	The feats from the build that you won't find in the core books come from Complete Warrior. Unfortunately, as it isn't Open Gaming Content, you won't find its information online. The Explosive weapon quality comes from Complete Warrior as well.
DM Zoc 01-22-04, 11:37 PM	If you just want to be flat-out invincible, then go Pyro-multi-headed-Laernean on top of a half-copper-dragon template. Then all you need to worry about is insta-kill things, but I'm sure there's another template that makes you immune to those (undead, maybe).
wdarkk 01-23-04, 02:34 AM	Mummy or Lich. Those are the only undead templates I know of that don't come with huge drawbacks.
the_heart 01-23-04, 06:34 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc If you just want to be flat-out invincible, then go Pyro-multi-headed-Laernean on top of a half-copper-dragon template. Then all you need to worry about is insta-kill things, but I'm sure there's another template that makes you immune to those (undead, maybe). requires 10 spelcaster levels, incantrix 5 gains immunity to death effects. just checking, but did your friend say CR 25 or effective character level 25. theres usually a fair bit of a difference.
dantedarkstar 01-23-04, 06:44 AM	It's obviously about CR. Read first post. I still say, go with Solar cleric or Tarrasque barbarian, or Infernal (I remembered the name) if it's within CR 25. Titan is... weak. Solar is just better (it's only 2 CR higher, and it's A LOT better with spellcasting of level 20 cleric, plus better specials). BTW, ELH monsters are sick compared to thier listed CR's.
LanceWork 01-23-04, 08:41 AM	just checking, but did your friend say CR 25 or effective character level 25. theres usually a fair bit of a difference. I'm pretty sure he said CR 25, but I thought that CR and effective char level were the same thing? Am i wrong? I still say, go with Solar cleric or Tarrasque barbarian, or Infernal (I remembered the name) if it's within CR 25. Titan is... weak. Solar is just better (it's only 2 CR higher, and it's A LOT better with spellcasting of level 20 cleric, plus better specials). Thanks Dantedarkstar. There have beens several recomendations for the Solar cleric. I'll check it out tonight. I'm also gonna see if I can scrounge up a copy of The Complete Warrior. :)
the_heart 01-23-04, 08:54 AM	Originally posted by LanceWork I'm pretty sure he said CR 25, but I thought that CR and effective char level were the same thing? Am i wrong? CR and ECL are very different, some of the more extreme examples can have ECL's of double their CR CR rates a suitable challenge that will (ideally) deplete a fifth of a party's resources. usually in a single encounter, so, for example, 'at will' abilities don't often have a great impact over '3/day' abilities. ECL rates a monster as a balance to a character, and is assumed to engage in a lot more than a single encounter. so 'at will' abilities have a far greater impact, as does higher ability scores, in fact a lot of things that are insignificant when calculating CR become very significant when placed in the hands of a player. it may well be that your friend meant exactly what he said, especially as it's just a one off (i did read the first post ;) ). but i feel there is a good chance that he meant ECL. might be worth checking either way.
Conaill 01-23-04, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by Tristan Avon Granvania Juca, one thing about the obscure rule that you missed.... non associated classes only raise the CR by 1/2 until they exceed the standard hit die for the creature. For a gnoll, with it's one or two hit dice, that would be after level one or two. True, but for the 1/2 red dragon troll with a base of 6 HD, that means you could give him 5 rogue *and* 5 ranger levels for the same price as 5 fighter or barbarian levels. Seems like a fine tradeoff to me! Note that levels in NPC classes are *always* treated as nonassociated. So if you want you could have a 1/2 red dragon troll 12 War/12 Brb, instead of 6 Ftr/12 Brb. I'd have to do the numbers to see if that's worth it, but at the very least you're gaining double the hit points... Edit: I'd be tempted to take a high-HD, low-CR base critter, then add up to his HD in a non-associated class. How does a simple adult red dragon sound like? A Rogue 20 adult red dragon! Edit2: Or take a 20+ HD combat beastie, then add 20 levels of a spellcasting class! Yikes! :eek: Edit3: OK, here ya go... Awakened Tarrasque Clr 8!:devil: Awakened Tarrasque should be something like CR21, add another 8 non-associated levels. The only thing that might top this is perhaps an Awakened Colossal Animated Object... with a heapload of non-associated character levels, of course. IF anyone has a listing of monsters by HD and CR, we can probably come up with something even more horrible. Edit4: Only slightly less disgusting: Elder Elemental (24HD, CR11) Wiz20. That's only CR21 total, so you've got 4 CR left for other "customization". Edit5: Even more disgusting... how about a were-Tarrasque? Only adds +6 to the CR... Ok, I need to go get a life now... Note: these characters may be a tad difficult to role-play. I'd suggest you practice affecting an accent, and remember to always talk to the barmaids in character...