Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PlatinumUnicorn 01-28-05, 02:56 PM	We've got an ethical debate going within the party that could very well lead to disasterous consequences. Here's a little background on the players, followed by some info on the party. Any opinions/suggestions/ideas are welcome. Players/DM: 1st time DM married to one of the players 3 very experienced players who also do a considerable amount of DMing 1 moderately experienced player, but mostly with other systems 2 relatively inexperienced players (married) Out of the game, we are all quite good friends who spend a lot of time hanging out and socializing with our various significant others (dinner parties, New Year's party, etc.) Party setup and dynamics: All dwarves, 5 from 1 clan and 1 from another clan that is the in-game brother-in-law of one of the 5. We all have 1 level of a randomly determined NPC class that we used to help ease the difficulties of surviving 1-3 levels that doesn't count against us for calculating xp. Dwarf 1 - Paladin 9/Aristocrat 1 (LG) Dwarf 2 - Wizard 8/Fighter 1/Infused 2/Adept 1 (LG) Dwarf 3 - Cleric 4/Infused 7/Warrior 1 (LG) Dwarf 4 - Rogue 8/Barbarian 1/Expert 1 (CG) Dwarf 5 - Fighter 9/Dwarven Defender 2/Warrior 1 (LG) Dwarf 6 - Barbarian 10/Warrior 1 (CG) Initally the citadel where the dwarves live in is going to be assaulted by an army of goblinoids and allies, but the party is needed for a special mission away from the citadel. So the issue is that while on their return journey across the desert after finding and slaying a blue dragon to obtain a bloodstone, the party is camped for the night. While on watch, a sphinx (the female kind) approaches the party. Through initiative rounds, all but Dwarves 2 (Wizard) and 3 (Cleric) are awakened and stand ready to deal with the sphinx. As the sphinx approaches, the dwarves take an initially defensive position, holding actions or readying attacks if something bad should happen. Also, the Paladin does a quick detect evil, DM "It doesn't detect as evil." A short vocal exchange occurred: Dwarves, "What do you want?" Sphinx, "Your magic." Dwarves, "No" Sphinx attacks. Dwarves attack. Dwarves 4, Sphinx 0 after the attacks, which do enough damage to send the sphinx into negative hps. Then the sphinx is coup de graced. Upon awakening the other two dwarves, it is decided that the cleric will speak with dead in the morning and that they should find it's lair and loot it. So, the next day rolls around, the dwarves find out the location of the lair and that there is another sphinx laired there also (mate). The dwarves travel a couple days to the lair and meet the mate. Upon arrival, the dwarves discover that the mate is a good sphinx who is waiting for the female to return. A little quick talking and buttering up and the dwarves withdraw. The two dwarves with Infused levels feel obligated (not at the DM's suggestion) to tell the mate what has happened and offer to have the female raised if that is his wish - it is. At the same time, the Rogue is wanting desperately to sneak into the lair and take some items since the female sphinx was defeated. The two Infused Dwarves are quite against this course of action. So, the Dwarves again set out towards home and eventually the Paladin and Rogue decide that it is foolish to be hauling the dead sphinx back to the Citadel with it being under siege. This decision occurs after a combat with a Clay Golem sent by ???? to either kill the party or at least slow it down. During the combat, the Rogue was quite badly injured and the likelyhood of any of the healers to successfully heal him was miniscule (see cursed damage in the Golem description). It's at this time that the Paladin and Rogue decide that the party needs to return to the Citadel as quickly as possible. The Wizard is able to scry upon his father and mother who are sitting at home quitely. The Paladin and Rogue then decide that if the others want to continue hauling the corpse, they can do it by themselves and move on ahead of the rest of the group. Several days pass as both groups make their way back to the Citadel, the Paladin and Rogue arriving first as they force marched through the night. The Rogue is healed by the more powerful healers at the Citadel and the Paladin has indicated that he does not want the sphinx raised. It is with the second groups return to the Citadel that the game was called for the night. So the question is, who is right, who is wrong, what are the opinions of the vast array of highly intelligent people on this board.
jack77 01-28-05, 04:39 PM	If you give your word, then you give your word. If no-one will help you then no-one will help you. You do it by yourself. I've had situations in real life in which others have bailed on me. in that case you just grit your teeth and haul the bodies out alone. If you gotta drag em three hundred miles alone then that's what you do. You don't give your word and then leave behind. Honor is not a corpse, it lives. The Paladin can object, though he has no right to interfere, and his/her actions seem strange to me. More the actions and logic of an aristocrat than those of a Paladin whose chief concerns should be right, duty and honor. Strange also he should pair with the Rogue, almost as if tacitly supporting the actions of the Rogue. As to who is right or who is wrong I cannot say, but I can say that playing a Paladin requires far more than logic, it requires spiritual force and moral power. Neither of which can be achieved by letting down those around you, or seeking to tempt others from or dissuade others from their sworn duties and obligations. Unless there is some really good reason to suspect that the actions of the others will lead to evil or harm, he should be encouraging their sense of honor and responsibility, not diminishing it. Jack.
Thorak 01-28-05, 04:42 PM	Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. Morality's like that sometimes. The sphinx attacked first, meaning killing it in self defense was not evil nor unlawful. There is absolutely no reason I can think of that would require that a LG character, even a paladin, Raise an enemy that had aggressively attacked them. Console those hurt by the loss, sure. Not stand in their way as they do what they can, fine. But haul the carcass as if you are doing penance for the act? No way. I'm currently playing a paladin, and if he were in the group, he not only would have refused to go haul the carcass back, he would have rather haughtily told the female off for implying that the party, as innocent defenders of their own lives, were in any way at fault for the situation. Of course, my current paladin is a bit of an arrogant arse. But there's nothing about being a paladin that precludes that. Neither side is "wrong". Neither is "right". They have differing views on what should be done. This happens all the time.
sollmn 01-28-05, 06:09 PM	All else aside for a moment, the rogue and paladin are selfish cowards for abandoning the rest of the party in an obviously dangerous situation. Party loyalty is one of the few core virtues that every good character should share, regardless of class or race.
Lincoln Hills 01-28-05, 07:20 PM	I disagree with sollmn. The dwarf paladin and dwarf rogue are more concerned with their overall mission (saving their home) than with the incidents that took place along the way (the promise to the sphinx). That said, I also am surprised that a paladin would say to another character, "I don't care if you honor your commitments or not." - If, on the other hand, it was expressed more like, "I leave you to this work: my own honor requires me to restore (rogue's) health and get back to saving our home," then it becomes a simple matter of him setting his priorities and acting on them. In either case, I believe the two Infused are acting primarily lawfully (honoring their sworn word) while the paladin and rogue are mainly looking at the good aspect (preserving life and liberty). I don't think any of 'em are acting in an actually chaotic or evil manner... given the circumstances.
jack77 01-28-05, 11:58 PM	.I agree LH. My point is that once you give your word, you give your word. If the Paladin did not give his word, then fine. He can abandon away, though I could not imagine doing such a thing as a Paladin. If I were a Paladin then I would send a runner ahead to warn the people in the stronghold and redouble my own personal efforts to haul carcass. And he may very well be thing of the good of others, for which I applaud him, but once he has done his duty to warn, at the very least I would be returning to help. And I would certainly not be encouraging the others to abandon their word of honor, nor their promised obligations to the good Sphinx. I might ask the help of the good Sphinx, but would never break my word no matter what the consequences unless I had good evidence of a trap or some trick. If they fulfill their words then they might even gain valuable future allies to asset them against their real enemies. You're never under an obligation to help your enemies, unless they have changed and repented or you give your word to help them and they accept. It is always at least possible to make future allies of prior enemies by honorable action, but it is never possible to make future allies of prior enemies by dishonorable action. Until good Sphinx does something to the contrary, those who swore to help are obligated to help. Everyone else can watch if they like but should not encourage the abandonment of an oath. Not in my opinion anyway. Jack
pres_man 01-29-05, 03:16 AM	Ok, so they raise the sphinx and then she does...what? Says, "Oops, sorry about that, well catch you later." Or attack the PCs again. This all pretty ridiculous. I mean she attacked. The PCs may offer to speak to a cleric who might be able to raise her on the male sphinx's behalf, but the male sphinx should be the one bring her body and paying to have it done. He could then escort her back home. The party might also be willing to travel with him, providing protection. But to offer to drag the body and pay for the raising of someone who attacked you. What the ...? That's just crazy.
danielinthewolvesden 01-29-05, 04:12 AM	What's "infused"?? :confused: You also forget to say which of the players is playing which PC. Here's the mistake- splitting the party. NEVER split the party. In this case, both sides had a reasonable point, and neither course of action was against anyones rules. Thus, you take a vote, abide by it, and move on. It appears from your OP that 'the vote' was 4-2, and thus in a way- the Pally & rogue were 'wrong". Not morally, no. But they should have abided by the wishes of the majority. Esp since you're all real-world freinds and a highly Lawful party.
Callista 01-29-05, 09:49 AM	Hmm... Sticky situation, yes. I would hire an NPC cleric to teleport in, Raise the Sphinx, and teleport back out before she can attack anyone. Have her husband present there, of course.
PlatinumUnicorn 01-31-05, 10:00 AM	Thanks of all the responses so far! I didn't tie which person plays which character simply to keep a level of impartialness. As I play one character and have one opinion, so do others who read this board, thus, by recounted the story from a strictly 3rd person perspective, I can get more unbiased opinions and answers. Infused is a prestige class from Dragon Magazine, back about a year or so ago. Basically, your share your body with an angel who then grants limited powers as you progress. There are 2 routes, one is spellcasting and the other is warrior, you can only choose one or the other. For the record, the Cleric Infused has an Astral Deva and the Wizard Infused has a Solar. Later,
Drachasor 01-31-05, 10:18 AM	Ok, so they raise the sphinx and then she does...what? Says, "Oops, sorry about that, well catch you later." Or attack the PCs again. This all pretty ridiculous. I mean she attacked. The PCs may offer to speak to a cleric who might be able to raise her on the male sphinx's behalf, but the male sphinx should be the one bring her body and paying to have it done. He could then escort her back home. The party might also be willing to travel with him, providing protection. Well, it is odd the male Sphinx didn't help (what's the explanation for that?) Perhaps the party didn't trust the male sphinx enough though. But to offer to drag the body and pay for the raising of someone who attacked you. What the ...? That's just crazy. The Sphinx wasn't evil and the party is composed of Good Guys. They kill the Sphinx with the reasons it attacks unclear, then they find it has a mate. Not ones to hold onto hard feelings (nice Good Guys), they offer to have his mate raised. Perhaps they're all closet romantics too. In any case, it makes perfect sense for a Good and forgiving group of characters to do. It is unlikely the Sphinx would attack after being raised, afterall it was thrashed the first time by a subset of the party, and when it is raised there will be more people around it (and it will be weaker). Besides, most neutral creatures (it isn't evil, remember) have some sense of gratitude. Bravo for the party's decision to raise. The Paladin not following his word is a bit odd. As for the transportion....why is Teleport or some other kind of advanced transportation out of the question? -Drachasor
ARpyro 01-31-05, 10:24 PM	As another player in the game, I can add a few more details to the debate. 1) The materials which the party was sent to obtain were left with the 4, so those didnt reach the citadel any faster by splitting the party. 2) Since one of the 2 (the paladin) is one of the physically strongest members of the party, it left those of lesser strength to haul the carcass (thus delaying the arrival of the requested materials even further) 3) The party had the means to scry (via crystal ball w/detect thoughts) and did so - no distress was detected, and all seemed well within the citadel. 4) The male sphynx was not fully trusted (we had just killed his wife, afterall) but it was thought we could secure a (relatively) powerful ally by performing this deed. 5) The paladin's player was actually MIA the night of the sphynx encounter...thus his character didnt take part in the negotiations with the male sphynx - this might've played a role in the player not feeling an obligation to assist with the res mission. I'm with most of the rest of the board - no side is right and no side is wrong, but there were most likely better ways to resolve the issue than splitting the party (which is almost the worst way to resolve intra-party issues, the worst being combat). As for the question regarding the use of teleportation, you've gotta be a bit higher level to teleport the number (and weight) of the party around. Remember, we're dealing with a party of 6 characters, 3 of which are in some variety or another of full-plate, with multiple heavy weapons (greataxes, dwarven war axes, warhammers, etc) each. There was no great or dire urgency placed on the mission into the desert so it was felt the teleport scrolls necessary to the task would've been a waste of party resources. Thanks for your previous replies and any discussion that follows. Ty
Tiddles 02-01-05, 01:43 AM	After reading the additional details from ARpyro I think that everyone acted as they should have. If I understand it correctly, the rogue was going to die without assistance so the strongest character (paladin) rushed him/her to town as quickly as possible to save them. The paladin should always keep his word. However, in this case, the paladin never made a vow to raise the sphinx back to life. Even if he did, there wouldn't be any kind of time restriction. He could have rushed the rogue back to town, then gone back to bring the sphinx back. The fact that the town wasn't in immediate trouble its ok the materials were delayed. Obviously its ok there was a short delay, cuz the party stopped and searched for the sphinx's lair. Sure I would be a little peeved too that the strongest character ran off and I had to carry the load myself. However, it makes sense cuz he was running off to save a fellow party members life. The paladin may also object to the raising but its all perspective. He didn't make a promise and he would hate to see party resources go towards something that tried to kill him. Hopefully it doesn't create too much tension in the group. Seems like everyone is right to me.
Andrew_980 02-01-05, 08:15 AM	Why the hell did they agree to raise the creature that tried to kill them in their sleep to steal their magic? regardless if the male was good, she wasn't and she is a threat to others. would you raise the most terrible beast of a man that kills and rapes at random because his good mother was encountered? god, i hope not.same for her.as far as the party being split, that is their chioce regardless of who is right. i personally think the well being of a trusted comrade is for more important than wasting resouses on the thing that tried to KILL YOU ALL. of course thats just me
PlatinumUnicorn 02-01-05, 12:44 PM	Hmm, well the female sphinx was hardly a threat to the party, let alone a horrible serial killer. And as far as stealing items, it didn't even try, it simply stated that it wanted our magic - but that's neither here nor there really. To address earlier comments, I do not feel that the Rogue was in a situation where he was likely to die, especially by staying with the party as opposed to going out with only the Paladin for protection - being in the center of a group of dwarves is much safer than being the "other" dwarf in a combat. Another bit of information that I negelected, we are notorious for rolling random encounters, to the point where random encounters are often only on a 01 or 02 on percentiles and we hit them - OFTEN. That being said, it's almost amazing that the Rogue and Paladin didn't hit a random encounter ahead of the larger group who did hit a random encounter.
ARpyro 02-02-05, 10:37 AM	Actually, the 'other' group hit 3 random encounters while the two hit none...pretty odd there...