Intimidate Not Lawful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Intimidate Not Lawful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Samusic
08-03-05, 04:04 AM My character is a lawful good Elven ranger. In the last session, our adventuring party came across a group of orcs who were apparently terrified because of a dragon that had attacked their wagons. Though we tried to reason with them, they still attacked us and tried to kill us. Now, my character doesn't like orcs to begin with (it's his first favored enemy).

Eventually, when reasoning with them didn't work, we retaliated. We killed some of them, and some of them dropped their weapons. I pointed my bow at the rest of them, told them to get together, and used intimidate to threateningly interrogate them. My DM said that I cannot iterrogate them through intimidation because it is not a lawful act. Huh???

1. He had his bow out to show them who's boss and to retaliate with if they were to try something stupid.

2. Intimidate is a valid interrogation tactic, in my opionion.

3. My character is an Elven ranger who has been raised to believe that orcs are generally evil, are enemies of Elves, and follow Gruumsh. If orcs attack him despite his attemps to help (which took a lot of inner strength from this character) he's going to assume that these orcs fit that profile.

4. Why would a character be given an alignment based skill in a class with no alignment restrictions? And what good is a +4 in a skill he can't use?

I plan on asking the DM about this later, but I wanted some more experienced players' opinions.
Cymraegmorgan
08-03-05, 04:16 AM Your DM is a certifiable loon. Nowhere does it say Intimidate is unlawful. Tell him or her to read the skill description.
Samusic
08-03-05, 04:32 AM Well, I wouldn't say he's a loon. I think he's a good DM. In fact, it could have been a misunderstanding because it was late, but it really struck me the wrong way. I just need some advice as to whether I'm wrong or right and on how I should present my argument to him next time I bring it up.
Kalli
08-03-05, 04:54 AM Just ask. If you think the time of day/DM fatigue had a part in it, go ahead and ask if it did. And if he sticks to his answer, you have the right to ask his reasoning behind it. I can't think of a solid reason why Intimidate would be nonlawful, but that doesn't necessarily rule one out.

Above all else, civility and politeness will go farther than aggression and accusations.
Cymraegmorgan
08-03-05, 05:03 AM Intimidate is not torture, it is, at worst, acting.
If Intimidate is unlawful, why do most of the devils in the MM have it as a skill? Nothing unlawful about devils.
Ditto for Formian Queens, who are always LN.

From the PHB, "'Law' implies.....obedience to authority...."
The Law itself can intimidate, so how is it unlawful?
Josuwar
08-03-05, 05:13 AM Intimidate is just a tool, how you use it is what determines the alignment of the action. In this case, you use it to interrogate some orcs, orcs are generally evil (and these are probably as well), you do not use intimidate here to cause chaos or anarchy and you are most definately not defying the law by interrogating some orcs (usually not anyway). So I don't see how its chaotic.

I'd like to note that I checked to see if the paladin had intimidate, which he doesn't, if he had then that would demonstrate the point that even lawful good could use intimidate. So then I checked the BoED, In the BoED the Slayer of Domiel (another class that has to be LG) has it. Of course a lot of people have a dislike for that particular book, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Slayer having intimidate :). The Sword of Righteousness also has it, but he is any Good. The Vassal of Bahamut also has it, another Lawful Good Only char.

In the end, your character is not even bound to their alignment like the class types I mentioned above. Your characters personality is above his alignment, its a roleplaying game after all, if your character would do this to orcs (which is quite reasonable, most would probably just outright kill them) then it will have to be that way. Alignment is not a straightjacket, it is meant as a quick definition, not an invisible wall. Besides, if your DM insists on it being Chaotic, one chaotic action shouldn't let your character slip into Neutral Good, it requires more than that. Heck, even if it would... you are a ranger, rangers can be of all alignments.

Finally, it might be a good plan to let your DM read your post and possibly the replies. It's less confrontational.
Red_Ninja
08-03-05, 08:40 AM I agree with many of the posts, using the intimidate skill is not unlawful. If it was the way that you were using intimidate...I have this to say...

Alignment does not govern actions, it governs them. This is how paladins can lose they holy power, because they are lawful and good, and some times make mistakes or deliberately turn from the light. Even if you DM insists that you are lawful and that (as a house rule) intimidate is an unlawful skill, you can just say "well my ranger isn't perfect, sometimes when he's angry, he walks on the wild side!" after all he is a ranger!

post how your issue is resolved! if it doesn't go your way- we'll all give you more advice and righteous indignation! :D
Dougbert
08-03-05, 09:12 AM Hasn't your DM ever seen a cop show? Besides, Intimidation seems a pretty Lawful alternative to murder.
Cherry
08-03-05, 09:17 AM Intimidate is a tool...and a highly effective one at that. Besides, if intimidate were not able to be used by a lawful character how then (to use a real-world example) could the police interrogate a suspect using the good cop/bad cop method?

(If you're not familiar with that method, one cop scares the bejeesus out of the suspect (intimidate) and then the other cop tries to be the suspect's friend, gaining his trust and, in theory, his confession or other information)

In short, Intimidate is a tool used by all alignments for their own purposes.
CzarGarrett
08-03-05, 09:35 AM Even if Intimidate is non-Lawful: You are a ranger. Not a monk/samurai, not a Paladin. You are perfectly capable of participating in a few chaotic acts without threatening your alignment.
Leewei
08-03-05, 10:24 AM Intimidate is the ability to cow others with the threat of retribution if they do not do something. Rule through fear is essential for Lawful Evil societies. Bullying by a powerful warlord can save him the expense of committing troops to police every aspect of his minions' lives.

Intimidation itself is a skill with no alignment attached to it; the use can be exercised in any number of ways. A paladin could stand in front of a horde of orcs and send them running using this skill.

The use of Intimidation can certainly be Lawful when interrogating prisoners. Watch a cop show sometime. Knowledge of the local laws is a handy thing when doing this. "I come from the forest of Yan, where we tolerate your kind as long as you do not interfere with us. We are in the lands of Bozu, however, where orcs are exterminated on sight. If you do not choose to reveal to us the reason for your attack, we will see to it that you meet the local authorities."
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe
08-03-05, 10:32 AM Intimidate is totally there for lawful characters to use; torture is the part that is unavailable to those of the lawful alignments.

P.S.

Your DM is a goon, a loon, and every other term for a person of diminished mental capacity.
Vrykolas2k
08-03-05, 11:34 AM Intimidate is not torture, it is, at worst, acting.
If Intimidate is unlawful, why do most of the devils in the MM have it as a skill? Nothing unlawful about devils.
Ditto for Formian Queens, who are always LN.

From the PHB, "'Law' implies.....obedience to authority...."
The Law itself can intimidate, so how is it unlawful?

You beat me to it. Well said, though.
GoofsterStud
08-03-05, 11:41 AM People intimidate other people all the time using laws alone.

So somebody scarying someone by telling them things that could happen from the laws they could break and scaring them isn't lawful... HUH... What is then?

Look at lawyers! (The few good ones)
Bruunwald
08-03-05, 01:04 PM Intimidation can be used by any alignment, given the right situation. Using it against enemies who have already attacked you, to try to get them to stop without killing all of them, is about the most Lawful Good, policeman, paladinly application of the skill I can think of.

You did the right thing.

Your DM is so wrong he ought to have his license revoked.
pres_man
08-03-05, 01:48 PM First try to get your DM to explain how intimidate is unlawful. The try to come up with a few counter examples, things like a DA telling a criminal, "If you don't help us out, I will seek the death penalty." This is an intimidation tactic. It is neither unlawful nor evil. What penalties the DA looks for are often left up to their descrestion.

If you have been able to convince your DM at this point that it is not unlawful, great. If not, then explain to him that your character is a LG elf ranger who despises orcs and who wants to stop evil dragons and such. The LG part is only a part of his entire personality. That one part does not totally control him, and he can step out of it if necessary.

That is, the DM might warn the player that intimidating is "unlawful", but after being warned it should still be up to the player to decide if they will do the action or not. If intimidation becomes your characters default method of dealing with NPCs then an alignment shift might be in order.

You might also point out that intimidate can be used in combat to demoralize opponents. Is this use unlawful?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Samusic 08-03-05, 04:04 AM	My character is a lawful good Elven ranger. In the last session, our adventuring party came across a group of orcs who were apparently terrified because of a dragon that had attacked their wagons. Though we tried to reason with them, they still attacked us and tried to kill us. Now, my character doesn't like orcs to begin with (it's his first favored enemy). Eventually, when reasoning with them didn't work, we retaliated. We killed some of them, and some of them dropped their weapons. I pointed my bow at the rest of them, told them to get together, and used intimidate to threateningly interrogate them. My DM said that I cannot iterrogate them through intimidation because it is not a lawful act. Huh??? 1. He had his bow out to show them who's boss and to retaliate with if they were to try something stupid. 2. Intimidate is a valid interrogation tactic, in my opionion. 3. My character is an Elven ranger who has been raised to believe that orcs are generally evil, are enemies of Elves, and follow Gruumsh. If orcs attack him despite his attemps to help (which took a lot of inner strength from this character) he's going to assume that these orcs fit that profile. 4. Why would a character be given an alignment based skill in a class with no alignment restrictions? And what good is a +4 in a skill he can't use? I plan on asking the DM about this later, but I wanted some more experienced players' opinions.
Cymraegmorgan 08-03-05, 04:16 AM	Your DM is a certifiable loon. Nowhere does it say Intimidate is unlawful. Tell him or her to read the skill description.
Samusic 08-03-05, 04:32 AM	Well, I wouldn't say he's a loon. I think he's a good DM. In fact, it could have been a misunderstanding because it was late, but it really struck me the wrong way. I just need some advice as to whether I'm wrong or right and on how I should present my argument to him next time I bring it up.
Kalli 08-03-05, 04:54 AM	Just ask. If you think the time of day/DM fatigue had a part in it, go ahead and ask if it did. And if he sticks to his answer, you have the right to ask his reasoning behind it. I can't think of a solid reason why Intimidate would be nonlawful, but that doesn't necessarily rule one out. Above all else, civility and politeness will go farther than aggression and accusations.
Cymraegmorgan 08-03-05, 05:03 AM	Intimidate is not torture, it is, at worst, acting. If Intimidate is unlawful, why do most of the devils in the MM have it as a skill? Nothing unlawful about devils. Ditto for Formian Queens, who are always LN. From the PHB, "'Law' implies.....obedience to authority...." The Law itself can intimidate, so how is it unlawful?
Josuwar 08-03-05, 05:13 AM	Intimidate is just a tool, how you use it is what determines the alignment of the action. In this case, you use it to interrogate some orcs, orcs are generally evil (and these are probably as well), you do not use intimidate here to cause chaos or anarchy and you are most definately not defying the law by interrogating some orcs (usually not anyway). So I don't see how its chaotic. I'd like to note that I checked to see if the paladin had intimidate, which he doesn't, if he had then that would demonstrate the point that even lawful good could use intimidate. So then I checked the BoED, In the BoED the Slayer of Domiel (another class that has to be LG) has it. Of course a lot of people have a dislike for that particular book, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Slayer having intimidate :). The Sword of Righteousness also has it, but he is any Good. The Vassal of Bahamut also has it, another Lawful Good Only char. In the end, your character is not even bound to their alignment like the class types I mentioned above. Your characters personality is above his alignment, its a roleplaying game after all, if your character would do this to orcs (which is quite reasonable, most would probably just outright kill them) then it will have to be that way. Alignment is not a straightjacket, it is meant as a quick definition, not an invisible wall. Besides, if your DM insists on it being Chaotic, one chaotic action shouldn't let your character slip into Neutral Good, it requires more than that. Heck, even if it would... you are a ranger, rangers can be of all alignments. Finally, it might be a good plan to let your DM read your post and possibly the replies. It's less confrontational.
Red_Ninja 08-03-05, 08:40 AM	I agree with many of the posts, using the intimidate skill is not unlawful. If it was the way that you were using intimidate...I have this to say... Alignment does not govern actions, it governs them. This is how paladins can lose they holy power, because they are lawful and good, and some times make mistakes or deliberately turn from the light. Even if you DM insists that you are lawful and that (as a house rule) intimidate is an unlawful skill, you can just say "well my ranger isn't perfect, sometimes when he's angry, he walks on the wild side!" after all he is a ranger! post how your issue is resolved! if it doesn't go your way- we'll all give you more advice and righteous indignation! :D
Dougbert 08-03-05, 09:12 AM	Hasn't your DM ever seen a cop show? Besides, Intimidation seems a pretty Lawful alternative to murder.
Cherry 08-03-05, 09:17 AM	Intimidate is a tool...and a highly effective one at that. Besides, if intimidate were not able to be used by a lawful character how then (to use a real-world example) could the police interrogate a suspect using the good cop/bad cop method? (If you're not familiar with that method, one cop scares the bejeesus out of the suspect (intimidate) and then the other cop tries to be the suspect's friend, gaining his trust and, in theory, his confession or other information) In short, Intimidate is a tool used by all alignments for their own purposes.
CzarGarrett 08-03-05, 09:35 AM	Even if Intimidate is non-Lawful: You are a ranger. Not a monk/samurai, not a Paladin. You are perfectly capable of participating in a few chaotic acts without threatening your alignment.
Leewei 08-03-05, 10:24 AM	Intimidate is the ability to cow others with the threat of retribution if they do not do something. Rule through fear is essential for Lawful Evil societies. Bullying by a powerful warlord can save him the expense of committing troops to police every aspect of his minions' lives. Intimidation itself is a skill with no alignment attached to it; the use can be exercised in any number of ways. A paladin could stand in front of a horde of orcs and send them running using this skill. The use of Intimidation can certainly be Lawful when interrogating prisoners. Watch a cop show sometime. Knowledge of the local laws is a handy thing when doing this. "I come from the forest of Yan, where we tolerate your kind as long as you do not interfere with us. We are in the lands of Bozu, however, where orcs are exterminated on sight. If you do not choose to reveal to us the reason for your attack, we will see to it that you meet the local authorities."
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 08-03-05, 10:32 AM	Intimidate is totally there for lawful characters to use; torture is the part that is unavailable to those of the lawful alignments. P.S. Your DM is a goon, a loon, and every other term for a person of diminished mental capacity.
Vrykolas2k 08-03-05, 11:34 AM	Intimidate is not torture, it is, at worst, acting. If Intimidate is unlawful, why do most of the devils in the MM have it as a skill? Nothing unlawful about devils. Ditto for Formian Queens, who are always LN. From the PHB, "'Law' implies.....obedience to authority...." The Law itself can intimidate, so how is it unlawful? You beat me to it. Well said, though.
GoofsterStud 08-03-05, 11:41 AM	People intimidate other people all the time using laws alone. So somebody scarying someone by telling them things that could happen from the laws they could break and scaring them isn't lawful... HUH... What is then? Look at lawyers! (The few good ones)
Bruunwald 08-03-05, 01:04 PM	Intimidation can be used by any alignment, given the right situation. Using it against enemies who have already attacked you, to try to get them to stop without killing all of them, is about the most Lawful Good, policeman, paladinly application of the skill I can think of. You did the right thing. Your DM is so wrong he ought to have his license revoked.
pres_man 08-03-05, 01:48 PM	First try to get your DM to explain how intimidate is unlawful. The try to come up with a few counter examples, things like a DA telling a criminal, "If you don't help us out, I will seek the death penalty." This is an intimidation tactic. It is neither unlawful nor evil. What penalties the DA looks for are often left up to their descrestion. If you have been able to convince your DM at this point that it is not unlawful, great. If not, then explain to him that your character is a LG elf ranger who despises orcs and who wants to stop evil dragons and such. The LG part is only a part of his entire personality. That one part does not totally control him, and he can step out of it if necessary. That is, the DM might warn the player that intimidating is "unlawful", but after being warned it should still be up to the player to decide if they will do the action or not. If intimidation becomes your characters default method of dealing with NPCs then an alignment shift might be in order. You might also point out that intimidate can be used in combat to demoralize opponents. Is this use unlawful?