Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Laros 02-04-08, 02:54 AM	So, the party psion dominated my character today. Before I get to the question, it seems a little more depth to the situation might help. [ My character is an assassin that joined the party mid-way through the campaign while pretending to be a simple rogue. The party originally consisted of mostly-good adventurers with one neutral character and one borderline evil character - the psion. The reasoning behind my addition was that they were quite desperate for someone who could deal with traps, and so, overlooked the fact that magical items prevented the disclosure of my alignment. All was well and good for a while, and gradually they realized that I was evil (I think it was probably after I returned from a scouting mission with a recently crippled town guard stuffed into a bag of holding). We seemed to cope though, given that they could tolerate my evil deeds being focused on mostly evil people. Today though, we came across a group of three goblins. Being the only one in the party who can speak goblin, I engaged them in conversation, found them to be insulting (but not hostile) and threw a dagger at one of them. He fought back with a gunshot, and I leapt towards them. Unfortunately, the sorcerer incapacitated me, then explained to the party that (he wears a helm of comprehend languages) I attacked the goblins unprovoked. The psion, who has always detested my character for complicated reasons, then cast dominate on me with the party's encouragment. ] The question is thus: What would you do in this situation. I'm their only really stealthy character, and my current orders are "protect the party." So far I've just thought of steering them away from quest objectives (given that keeping the party from progressing through quests should keep them out of harms way). Any suggestions for ways in which I can further abuse my instructions would be greatly appreciated. Even moreso would I appreciate suggestions for directions that I might be able to metagame-talk the psion into giving me that I could abuse to the point where I actually have the chance to end the domination or (if the opportunity presents itself) kill him [though I'd rather be allowed to rejoin the party afterwards].
Zog_Jakome 02-04-08, 03:38 AM	I hate intra party fights, problems always come up when there is an evil and a good character in the party. law and chaos can cope with one another pretty easily, but good and evil always has a hard time figuring out how to get along. I don't make evil characters if the rest of the party is good, nor to I make really good characters if the rest of the party is evil, if the party is evil I am more inclined to be evil as well but if I decide to be good then it poses and interesting situation. the party does something bad it is up to me to fix it but I usually end up evil as well. in one situation me and a freind were outright good, then we met our spell caster and leader of the party, and another, a scout/ranger/rogue from a forest colony he was good as well. seeing as how in our game we don't have alignment we weren't tied to behaving a certain way but we were definintely good. our spellcaster on the other hand was all evil and looking to become a lich, but kept this idea under wraps for a very long time, eventually we found out and figured it to be necessary to overcome other forces of evil and now we all want to become vampires. I am afraid you are stuck, your orders are to protect the party not keep them out of harm's way, keeping them out of harm's way would make your job easier but you would probably keep doing what you have been doing before you became dominated but without all the evil stuff. when you get out of dominate I believe an evil character would leave or try to kill the party in revenge for dominating you, a lawful evil would leave, chaotic evil would kill, neutral evil would kill if you thought you could leave if you know you can't. either way prepare to make another character. also I think I should point out that comprehend languages does not allow you to speak a language only able to understand and read a language, you need tongues to speak and write.
Thubby 02-04-08, 03:38 AM	isn't charm person on the assassin spell list? use it on psion, many times if necessary. :D
Laros 02-04-08, 03:55 AM	I am afraid you are stuck, your orders are to protect the party not keep them out of harm's way, keeping them out of harm's way would make your job easier but you would probably keep doing what you have been doing before you became dominated but without all the evil stuff. when you get out of dominate I believe an evil character would leave or try to kill the party in revenge for dominating you, a lawful evil would leave, chaotic evil would kill, neutral evil would kill if you thought you could leave if you know you can't. either way prepare to make another character. also I think I should point out that comprehend languages does not allow you to speak a language only able to understand and read a language, you need tongues to speak and write. The sorcerer wasn't speaking with the goblins, just paraphrasing our conversation for the rest of the party. Thanks for the advice. My character's definitely going to go with the "kill them" route, though I think I've got some ways I can swing it. See, at level 20, my legacy weapon gains a slight variant of imprisonment where the subject is aware but completely incapable of taking any action while in their prison. I think it might be reasonable for my character to stick around long enough to see the psion trapped forever like that. Of course, that would require the rest of the party being dead as well (to eliminate any chance of rescue), so it should all work out in the end. On the "Protect the party front" I may have actually thought of a solution as well. We're currently in a dungeon with a lot of nigh-unbreakable doors with high-level locks leading to isolated rooms. What with danger around every turn, and a nigh-inevitable confrontation with a powerful sorcerer. I'm going to ask my DM if it's within reason to lock the party (minus the psion) in one of the rooms for safety, while keeping the psion gagged and in my presence to prevent him from changing my orders (and thus compromising the party's safety by decreasing my ability to protect them). "Protect the party" is practically "Keep the party out of harm's way", after all. I think everything might actually work out alright. Provided he dosn't ever try to dominate me again, in which case we'd be back to me killing the party when it wears off.
Laros 02-04-08, 03:58 AM	isn't charm person on the assassin spell list? use it on psion, many times if necessary. :D Not actually one of the spells I currently have access to, and I'd rather not start a dominate/charm person war. My character's quite intelligent, and that can only end in either my permanent domination/enslavement or the death of the party.
stealth_monkey 02-04-08, 04:28 AM	You've got one major hurdle, you've missed the part where you and the psion now have a telepathic link. He doesn't need to be able to speak to give you orders, nor does he even have to see you. If you lock him in a room, all he has to do is make you come back and unlock the door. On a less mechanical note, however, it was you who decided to roll an evil character in a good party. I'd suggest not acting like a tool by trying to kill the party and simply reroll to a more compatible class, but that's just me
Laros 02-04-08, 04:45 AM	A valid point for the whole telepathic link thing. I suppose I could just keep him sedated for the duration, allowing him to become just conscious enough to drink water once a day. He is a psion, after all, and I have all manner of wonderful poisons at my disposal. Your other point dosn't seem so pertinent. The decision to bring an evil character into the party was not just mine. It's brought an interesting dynamic to the party. Before my character's intorduction, the party was basically your archtypical good group plus a psion whose desire to show off by killing lots of things was kept in check by the uber-good characters. These are my friends that I'm playing with, and I'm not going to ruin our campaign by killing them as they sleep. I don't know about you, but by the time characters reach 20th level (the level at which I'm going to go for the big group-kill), the campaign is pretty much done anyways. The entire point behind this character was to make things more interesting and fun. I don't see how I'm being a tool by aiming to kill my party off. When the time does come, what chance would I really have against 5 other characters?
Zog_Jakome 02-04-08, 04:57 AM	The sorcerer wasn't speaking with the goblins, just paraphrasing our conversation for the rest of the party. oh I thought you meant one of the goblins was a sorcerer with comprehend languages. so an ally knocked you out for attacking a creature that is mostly inherently evil?
Laros 02-04-08, 05:43 AM	oh I thought you meant one of the goblins was a sorcerer with comprehend languages. so an ally knocked you out for attacking a creature that is mostly inherently evil? Yes, although two of the three goblins apparently didn't show up when "detect evil" was used, and one of those two goblins also took some extra damage from my unholy weapon. On the whole, the party took this to mean that I was purposely trying to slaughter a good creature for no particular reason.
stealth_monkey 02-04-08, 05:49 AM	Perhaps I'm unfairly biased with my own experiences, but I've never had a player trying to kill the rest of the party off bring fun and interesting experiences to the group. If your party actually encouraged you to roll the character I suppose it might be different, but in my experience while these plans of inter-party betrayal and intrigue start grand they generally end up devolving into the evil character killing everyone in their sleep. But I've said my piece, so I'll try and help you out with the mechanics. Your drug idea is good, but you've got some fairly big problems, it depends on how your dm runs the dominate person as to what actions you're allowed. Some potential pitfalls: - What is the rest of the party going to say when their psion is mysteriously unconscious for a week? Also, your choice of drug/poison is potentially a problem, it'll have to be handled by your dm as a) I don't know of any substances in RAW that work like you want them to and b) by 17th level, even a psion is going to be making fort saves with ease, especially if he's using a few magic items - What are you going to be doing with the unconscious psion? If you're going to be taking him with you while you adventure, you aren't fulfilling your task, as he is no safer unconscious than conscious. Given that it doesn't fall under protecting the party, you wouldn't be allowed to administer the poison. - This is a dm call, but would your character have to prevent a creature poisoning one of the party members? (I assume yes). It could be argued that this means you must also protect the party from your own actions, as you may not be allowed to perform a harmful act on a member of the party (such as poisoning) as it contradicts with your orders even if the end result is the member's protection
Laros 02-04-08, 06:06 AM	Thanks for the input. Just so you know, the most likely outcome of this is going to be the party completely distrusting my character to the point where I don't even get the chance to stab them while they sleep, forcing me to flee and become a new recurring villain. I'm hoping that we're not quite at that point though. I still have hope that after the dominate person thing is done, we can all agree that dominating my character over the attempted murder of a goblin was stupid, and that some sort of deal is struck to motivate my character to remain in the group. With regards to the other feedback, I've got most of it at least relatively covered. I have a stock of poisons available (being an assassin and all), and the plan is to lock the party in two VERY secure rooms - one for me and the psion, one for the others. Also consider that we are only level 10, so the right combination of poisons should make keeping a psion under for a few days possible. This doesn't necessarily have to last the whole week either. Just long enough to make the party regret him casting dominate person. You last point's a good one though. I'll have to ask the DM about it, but I think I might have some hope given that I know the poison won't kill him, wheras wandering into a dungeon full of dangerous monsters/NPCs could.
Ventus_Frago 02-05-08, 03:28 PM	I would have your character go off the deep end of the shallow pool. If the domination reads as protect the party from harm I would do things to such an extreme it gets pretty annoying to the rest of the party, for example; every time the party goes out doors insist you spend 5 minutes on each character applying sunscreen -- eventually it will get the party use to your character touching them -- easier to put on contact poison that way... Insist on tasting every bit of food, drink, mate for possible danger. Play it up to the hilt. As an assassin it is easy to imagine ways for someone to harm the party that way, plus its easier to put in a digested poison... Insist that the group stays together at ALL TIMES, even when conducting private business including using the facilities. It'll make it seem natural when you insist on going with the psion alone somewhere and why the rest of the party is locked in a room while you're away to 'keep them safe.' Eventually the rest of the party will press the psion to change his instructions -- instructions you should be so willingly able to help provide, which should have nice loop holes for you the character... Sounds like fun!
Zombie_Babies 02-05-08, 04:09 PM	If you are already in a dungeon or other dangerous area, this is really quite simple. Simply refuse to go anywhere but out of the complex. Protect the party to the fullest- by getting them the hell out of this dangerous place. If they try to go forward, refuse to unlock the door. Refuse to search for traps, too. After all, they are less likely to walk down the more dangerous path and would then either stay where they were or head back the way they came. There is no need for poisoning anyone or this goofy, extra-complicated plan. Keep it simple. Refuse to adventure or allow the others to adventure. Protect them that way. Suggest that you all retire and open a tavern, or something. The goal here isn't to start fighting by poisoning the Psion. The goal is to get him to see that Dominating you is useless. Or, barring that, to change his commands. Frustrate him into asking you to do something you normally wouldn't- re-save with a +2 bonus. Your plan is just too complex. And I do not think that you should be allowed to carry it out as incapacitating someone in an obviously dangerous place is not protecting them. Just refuse to help. And refuse to let them go on without you. Stagnate the party until he changes his directive and hopefully allows you another save with a better chance at making it. Additionally, there is no need to kill the party yourself. That's just an excuse to PvP. You are an assassin. You are part of a group that kills for money. Pay one of your brethren to off the Psion at some point. The party probably has powerful enemies that want them all dead, no? They won't suspect you (especially if you hire another to "kill" you - only to have you chase him off) and it's just the smarter play overall. You get to keep the handy meatshields and healers to help you get more stuff, too. Assassins rarely use brute tactics (like the plan you have laid out) and prefer to be unnoticed in their activities. Openly striking the Psion (though he deserves it, Domination cannot be forgiven- especially if you are evil) is not how an Assassin would approach this. Be subtle. Be cautious. Keep your freedom and your name. Live to assassinate another party member down the road... In short: Brains over poison every time.
Rood_Inverse 02-05-08, 08:50 PM	Leave the game. Things only escalate and get worse from here. This guy hates you OOC, and what you've done IC is just give him a reason to exercise that hate. I've been dominated in a VTM game. The player had something personal against me, and his character subsequently had something personal against my character. The game dissolved into fights and bickering between players and characters shortly after that. The gaming group dissolved about 4 sessions after I was first dominated. Leave the game now, and spare your friendships with the other players. I've been there, and I haven't spoken to a single one of those players who did it, or let it happen, since then. That was almost 3 years ago. And I STILL hear how the guy talks trash about me from time to time. And I haven't spoken to him in 3 years. Do you really want to end up like that? Walk away now, preserve your dignity and your friendships. This is not an in-game thing, nor can it be solved in-game. It will only get worse if you continue down this path.
Lincoln Hills 02-06-08, 02:48 PM	...What would you do in this situation?... I [would] appreciate suggestions for directions that... I could abuse to the point where I actually have the chance to end the domination or (if the opportunity presents itself) kill him [though I'd rather be allowed to rejoin the party afterwards]. I believe Stuart Gilligan Griffin said it best: "You must be 'shrooming." ('It's OK for me to lie to them, manipulate them and spoil their negotiations, but the second they target me with a non-damaging, short-term spell in order to avert bloodshed, I'm justified in plotting their deaths!') You chose to start a character whose core motif is a disregard for the sanctity of life. The rest of the party includes Good people, whose moral code includes a proviso that they do value life. You didn't foresee a conflict? Or perhaps you didn't foresee losing that conflict. Why should the rest of the players have any interest in letting you continue to play with them? They've cut you a lot of slack just by letting your "rogue with an undetectable alignment" join. (You don't have to admit that in writing, but please admit it to yourself. They Let Me Run This Character.) No, no, by all means stab the Psion in the back as he sleeps. Still too dangerous, Mr. Courage? Hire somebody else to do it and then kill them as they sleep. Just don't be too astonished when the other players not only execute your character, but ban you from their table. Grow a spine: play a fighter. I'm sorry. I strive to be respectful (by which I mean 'irreverent and smug, but not outright rude') to other posters on these boards, but... I've seen this kind of double-standard in far too many evil PCs. You're no worse than any of 'em, Laros. Seriously, just... rethink your attitude toward your fellow players, man.
1red13 02-06-08, 10:21 PM	I think you (OP) might be in a tough spot. The dynamics of roleplaying that you may enjoy is likely not what the rest of your party look for in their d&d. I think you can guess that many of the people that have commented have run across a similar scenario where one pc enjoys being the bad guy in a group of good guys. I'm just betting your group doesn't enjoy your characters actions as much as you do. Probably not too much that can be done.
Draco_Whitewind 02-07-08, 03:40 AM	go buy a scroll of protection from Evil, or a wand of it. a charge of a level 1 750 gp wand would last a minute and fully free you. if you ducked behind a pillar lets say so they can't identify they spell while you're "protecting" them, things could get messy fast :) A scroll of magic circle against evil is better, and would last for 50 minutes, but its pricier. Remember that the second the psion dies, (potentially once freed via a study and assainate with death attack+ sneak + poisons from an attack they didn't think could happen, you don't have to worry about future domination. I'd recommend doing this all when the party is particularly weak. if the psion is going to use you as a meatshield, Carve them all up and have the last laugh. :D
kelvinaw273 02-07-08, 09:53 AM	So, the party psion dominated my character today. Before I get to the question, it seems a little more depth to the situation might help. [ My character is an assassin that joined the party mid-way through the campaign while pretending to be a simple rogue. The party originally consisted of mostly-good adventurers with one neutral character and one borderline evil character - the psion. The reasoning behind my addition was that they were quite desperate for someone who could deal with traps, and so, overlooked the fact that magical items prevented the disclosure of my alignment. All was well and good for a while, and gradually they realized that I was evil (I think it was probably after I returned from a scouting mission with a recently crippled town guard stuffed into a bag of holding). We seemed to cope though, given that they could tolerate my evil deeds being focused on mostly evil people. Today though, we came across a group of three goblins. Being the only one in the party who can speak goblin, I engaged them in conversation, found them to be insulting (but not hostile) and threw a dagger at one of them. He fought back with a gunshot, and I leapt towards them. Unfortunately, the sorcerer incapacitated me, then explained to the party that (he wears a helm of comprehend languages) I attacked the goblins unprovoked. The psion, who has always detested my character for complicated reasons, then cast dominate on me with the party's encouragment. ] The question is thus: What would you do in this situation. I'm their only really stealthy character, and my current orders are "protect the party." So far I've just thought of steering them away from quest objectives (given that keeping the party from progressing through quests should keep them out of harms way). Any suggestions for ways in which I can further abuse my instructions would be greatly appreciated. Even moreso would I appreciate suggestions for directions that I might be able to metagame-talk the psion into giving me that I could abuse to the point where I actually have the chance to end the domination or (if the opportunity presents itself) kill him [though I'd rather be allowed to rejoin the party afterwards]. Allow me to translate your words as I see them: I have joined a party with the express intention of sowing dissension and ruining their fun because it amuses me to act like a ****. They are onto me and in an attempt to salvage everyone's game they used Domination rather than just booting me or killing me off. How may I abuse their tolerance and achieve my original goal of ****ing with everybody and spoiling their game? My advice is as follows: How they have acted is irrelevant: Whichever way you look at it either you need to grow up or you shouldn't be in that group.
Arcomage 02-07-08, 10:09 AM	My advice would be to ride it out. You've been ordered to 'protect the party', which should by all rights prevent you from plotting their deaths unless you manage to find some way to plot without being aware of it yourself. The next thing to do, then, of course, is try to make amends before the whole party relationship breaks down. It's not just that you can offer them a unique roleplaying opportunity by having an evil character try to kill them (It's not like that doesn't happen a lot in normal adventuring anyway), but they've basically offered you a chance to go good. I'd take it - Domination does not preclude you discussing your motives with the group, and if you fill your role, behave and generally don't make a nuisance of yourself, they're likely to relax the restrictions or lift the domination entirely. If you get to that point, you've basically got two options - "Bwuahahaha, you fools, I was toying with you all along and now I'm going to kill you when you least expect it" is one, but not something I'd suggest doing. Even if the campaign is mostly over by that point and people are at level 20 or so, nobody likes having a campaign ended because their characters were killed in their sleep. That's a major letdown and would probably make it extremely difficult for you to continue playing with this group. Your mileage may vary, but I have yet to encounter any player who actually liked having their character killed by a murderous party member. Just don't. The other option is far more interesting, in my opinion. You could 'go good' (discuss prestige classes with your DM because losing your Assassin class features would suck and not make any sense either, considering the fact that prestige classes such as the Dragon Disciple and Ur-Priest work at all). You don't have to stop killing and be nice to everone, but you could at least make an effort to work with the party. And realise that evil does not have to imply killing - It can be just as satisfying to try to make friends of enemy factions and then simply playing them out against each other.
rimble 02-07-08, 01:03 PM	I dunno, a few contentious points: - Stop all the party infighting crap. It's stupid, it's not in the spirit of D&D, and it can ruin real-life friendships. All DM's, I implore you to absolutely kaibosh party infighting with prejudice. Start with disallowing Good/Evil PC's from mingling. - Coming to the boards asking how to gank your party is stupid. If you want to be a jerk be a jerk on your own terms. Asking others how to be a better jerk is really stupid. Now instead of you against the party it's the entirety of these boards against your party, that's some fair mature game playing right there. - Get the chip off your character's shoulder. I'm so tired of this played-out character attitude. I'm level 10! Everyone bow before me! Threaten the King if he doesn't kiss your butt, threaten the clergy, threaten the gods themselves! I'm level 10! RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH! - There is no 'interesting party dynamic' that you are introducing. You're being a jerk. The psion is being a jerk. Nothing good will come from this. - The only reasonable option is to have a change of heart. Apologize to the group, hope the psion apologizes to you, be Good, and everyone stop being a jerk.
Guardian1 02-07-08, 02:48 PM	If I'm reading the OP correctly, the party psion hit you with Dominate because he was informed by the party soceror that you attacked a group of goblins, with the reason for the attack being that the goblins insulted you. None player likes seeing control of their character taken away from them, but it kind of seems as if you were asking for it to happen sooner or later. However, it seems as if you still want to play your character or a similar type of character. In that case, may I suggest allowing your current character to become a recurring villain NPC, and them making a Slayer of Domiel (BoED PRC)? It's basically a LG Assassin without the poison use, along with the addition of a few minor paladin abilities. It'll still kind of have the flavor of an Assassin, and most of the party, except for that psion, might not feel threatened.
Wheldrake 02-07-08, 03:16 PM	Leave the game. [...] Walk away now, preserve your dignity and your friendships. This is not an in-game thing, nor can it be solved in-game. It will only get worse if you continue down this path. This whole thread is a perfect example of why playing evil characters is ultimately counterproductive and even destructive - with repercussions that can go way beyond the gaming table. Several earlier posters also remarked about how evil adventures give RPGs a bad name. Let's recall that the DMG recommends that the three evil alignments be reserved for NPCs, never for player characters. There is a long history behind this. I've played D&D off and on since the mid-70s, when folks in the Iowa City Wargaming Confederation were thrilled about this strange new extension to the Chainmail miniature rules called D&D. In all that time I have seen only grief come from evil characters and evil adventures. Perhaps some others have had interesting and beneficial experiences from evil adventures, but the stories I see in this thread certainly don't lean that way. Just don't do it. Don't go there. When party members start using mind-control spells and powers on each other, and plotting horrible deaths with poison and worse, you've got to realize that the "fun" aspect opf the game has run its course. If I were playing the assassin who's been dominated by a party member, rather than plot out all the horrible things I could do to me fellow gamers, I would simply hand over my character sheet to the DM, and start a new one. Assuming I didn't just decide to pack up my dice and leave this group for good. YMMV, --- Wheldrake
TwistedPuppy 02-07-08, 03:34 PM	Allow me to translate your words as I see them: I have joined a party with the express intention of sowing dissension and ruining their fun because it amuses me to act like a ****. They are onto me and in an attempt to salvage everyone's game they used Domination rather than just booting me or killing me off. How may I abuse their tolerance and achieve my original goal of ****ing with everybody and spoiling their game? My advice is as follows: How they have acted is irrelevant: Whichever way you look at it either you need to grow up or you shouldn't be in that group. Sadly, some players think that being a **** and ****ing with everybody and spoiling their game is fun, and that's the only reason they play. Usually the same people who are surprised and offended when the DM takes their (evil) character and makes it an NPC or when they're asked not to come to the next session. I've just joined a game at the flgs, the guy running it is doing a great job, and I really enjoy the setting. However, one of the players exactly fits the description above, so I'm not likely to be with that group much longer. When your first thought about an upcoming game session is "I wish I didn't have to deal with (name or suitable perjorative term)" then it's probably time to leave the group.
Zombie_Babies 02-07-08, 03:51 PM	Snip I have to disagree, in a way. I have played for 17 yrs and, for a period of time in my earlier days, played almost exclusively NE. I still play with two of the same people. One moved away a long time ago, otherwise I'm sure he'd still be around, too. What it comes down to is maturity and an actual understanding of how to play an evil alignment. I'm not trying to say that the OP qualifies (or does not, for that matter) as I don't know him. This is a response to the idea that Evil cannot be good for gaming. It usually works better when the entire group is evil, yes, but it doesn't need to be that way. To say evil characters are impossible to play and should be reserved for NPCs is just wrong, IMO. As for the idea that evil games are what gives people the wrong idea about D&D: Do you think Stephen King is evil because he wrote horror books? What about the actor that played Freddy Krueger? He basically played a role that made him out to be a psycho killer- far beyond most D&D PCs, btw. Creativity is creativity. It doesn't always have to be goody-goody stuff. In fact, to quite a few of us, after the 5th or so year the whole "I'm gonna stop the evil baddy and save the world" schtick gets to be a tad monotonous. Stating that evil characters are what's wrong with the game is basically telling people how to play the game. When you start telling people that they play D&D wrong, then it's you who becomes the problem. As for my post to the OP, I saw right away that he only wanted to cause trouble in his party. He was wronged by his fellow PC, as well. In response I gave him the advice he was actually looking for instead of a friggin lecture. Why? He won't listen to a lecture anyway. So I figured I might as well help... and keep the inter-party blood from being shed as long as possible.
Draco_Whitewind 02-07-08, 05:28 PM	He is an evil character in a good party. I'm sorry, but drop the whole "for heroics" ideal of D&D, its been dead a LONG time. I don't see him even attacking the goblins over an insult being a bad thing. a CHAOTIC GOOD character could have taken the very same action. (Remember, goblins = evil. For good characters - dicing them to bits before they even talk is perfectly valid. For evil, it just might be convinient.) All I see is a Psion PC Who overreacted to a bunch of Goblins being diced in cold blood. Remember, domination grants a save every time you're forced to take an action against you actual intentions. (When you want to kill the psion, protecting him is the last thing you want to do!) Evil can work with good, as long as he doesn't aim his evil AT the party, and learns when to hold his own motives in check. Play EVIL, not "Stupid evil" and I really don't see a problem.
Jarsallen 02-07-08, 07:14 PM	'm sorry, but drop the whole "for heroics" ideal of D&D, its been dead a LONG time. Certainly not in every gaming group. I admit that I prefer games without alignment and that I tend toward neutral characters anyway, but frankly I think that most people who play evil characters tend to play them in a puerile fashion... Anyway, long story short, it seems like you're a douche. I don't meant that to be insulting, it's just that how can you seriously look at what you're doing and say 'I'm being a good role player!' First off, stop trying to weasel your way out of your dominate. If, prior to you being dominated, you would have assumed 'protect the party' involved sedating the party's manifester, and locking the party in a room, then I have to imagine you'd have been killed/dominated long before now. You, me, and everyone on these boards knows that you're attempting to twist meaning beyond all reason to justify poor behavior and non-compliance with rules. Congratulations, any argument you make to your DM will end with him saying this! (http://www.geocities.com/oz_bat/ruleslawyers.jpg) Dump this character, make one that fits with the party, and stop behaving like a petulant 5 year old. You lost- not because you can't weasel your way into explaining your behavior, but because you have to. And when you have to act the way you are proposing, no one likes you.
Draco_Whitewind 02-07-08, 10:39 PM	Wow. I really can't believe people take such serious attitudes to crap like this. If he was actually such a huge problem, the DM should have told him - "Hey, you're being a d-bag. Stop it. While playing an evil character is okay, when you end up going to stupid evil, that draws the line." I am a DM as well as a player, and the second the Psion took an action that more or less removed you as a player from the equation, I can't see any other way for his character to solve it than by killing the Psion, DM permitting. Interparty conflict can be interesting when done right. (Of course, I run a game thats very player driven, and in all honestly when I play a character death for me just gives me a chance to try something new ultimately.):) Can people seriously ratchet down the I M SERIOUS DM THIS ARE SERIOUS GAME?
Rood_Inverse 02-07-08, 10:44 PM	I've just joined a game at the flgs, the guy running it is doing a great job, and I really enjoy the setting. However, one of the players exactly fits the description above, so I'm not likely to be with that group much longer. Speak with the DM before you do. At the very least, your DM deserves that kind of feedback. He should always be told how to make his game better. If this extends to who extends invites to, or how he screens his potential players... Let him know. Outline your grievances clearly, concisely and with as much objectivity as you can muster. Then, as always, give him a chance to fix the problem before you walk.
1red13 02-07-08, 11:44 PM	Wow. I really can't believe people take such serious attitudes to crap like this. If he was actually such a huge problem, the DM should have told him - "Hey, you're being a d-bag. Stop it. While playing an evil character is okay, when you end up going to stupid evil, that draws the line." I am a DM as well as a player, and the second the Psion took an action that more or less removed you as a player from the equation, I can't see any other way for his character to solve it than by killing the Psion, DM permitting. Interparty conflict can be interesting when done right. (Of course, I run a game thats very player driven, and in all honestly when I play a character death for me just gives me a chance to try something new ultimately.):) Can people seriously ratchet down the I M SERIOUS DM THIS ARE SERIOUS GAME? Sadly i think that most players quietly try and deal with the disruptive player. Hoping its a phase or gently nudging the player into a different direction until in most instances the disruptive player has the hammer dropped on him because the other players are just frustrated by the one persons insistance on staying the course. I would guess most ppl aren't keen on the confrontation and likely knowing that the confrontation will not be happily accepted by the offending player. Meaning a nasty debate or argument over the players actions and how its not appreciated. It usually boils down to the frustrated players likely blowing up perhaps to a relatively minor infraction and the lone player feels justified in his own defense.
TwistedPuppy 02-08-08, 09:36 AM	Speak with the DM before you do. At the very least, your DM deserves that kind of feedback. He should always be told how to make his game better. If this extends to who extends invites to, or how he screens his potential players... Let him know. Outline your grievances clearly, concisely and with as much objectivity as you can muster. Then, as always, give him a chance to fix the problem before you walk. Had already done that before I posted, and we talked about some possible fixes. Which is why I haven't decided I'm definitely going. I'm just lacking confidence any of the fixes will work - not because they aren't good ideas or workable but because the problem individual is such a sociopath. Also, the DM feels obligated to keep the individual involved because they gave up a slot in another game to join this one. While I'm not sure I agree that he has that obligation in spite of the individual's behavior, that's his decision and not mine, and I don't fault him in the least for feeling that way. I like and respect the DM (and the other players in the group) enough to make a good faith effort to resolve the problems before I decide to walk.
Elsydeon 02-08-08, 05:01 PM	Don't let these guys get to you. It hasn't been explicitly stated, but you've given me the impression at least that the group is ok with dissent in the ranks. I'd assume other players have played that role in your group, and that you find the plot twists fun. Evil mixed with good does not HAVE to be bad. It's just that most people do it terribly, or hold onto the 'my character concept is sacred. It's what my character would do!' when the fun is gone. Those are the people that ruin things. So long as you are willing to drop the concept the moment things stop being fun and you make sure everyone knows it then everything is fine. For the sake of argument I'll assume you did what I did when I last played an evil character. Talked about the issue before it became big with the player who was my in-group nemesis. We decided how to handle the conflict between us before the opportunity ever came up to act. We both agreed (and meant it) no hard feelings if one of us died. So my advice? The ideas brought up here are good. Talk it out with the Psion first. Make sure it's ok. If it's not, express your discontent with the domination, and offer to stop playing the character after a good 'exit' scene in the next game. That's all it takes people. Evil characters aren't hard to make work. You just have to accept the risk of the character becoming a burden and the consequence of giving him up if he ever does. That's all. The anti-evil people on here are so confusing... Would I as a player, from what you can gather from this post, upset you so much?
SquibThePirate 02-09-08, 03:03 AM	I think the problem here is that most people got to the point where the OP said he was evil and instantly hit the post reply button. Playing an evil character in a campaign does not make you a jerk; it makes you bored with the "Grr kill bad things" or the "im neutral, but I kill bad things" sterotypes. I played a character that repeatedly stole things from the other PC's and even stole gold that we found, and we found in game ways to deal with it with no out of game anger. Hell, the other players actually love that particular character. From what I understand from his post, his group encouraged his making of the evil character, so they now have to live with it. The Psion is wrong for using dominate PERIOD. What you people have said if he had came on and said "I play a LG [Insert class here] who killed some goblins cause they insulted me, and now the Psion as dominated me for doing that"? Now don't get me wrong, you shouldn't just spring and evil character on your group, and if they say they don't want you to play one you shouldn't, but if you give them warning and they don't care/encourage it then they can reap what they sow.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 06:39 AM	I think the problem here is that most people got to the point where the OP said he was evil and instantly hit the post reply button. Nope, we read the whole post. It's pretty clear the OP was out to mess with the party. Sure, their reaction wasn't the best, but as a previous poster pointed out the offense was likely the straw that broke the camel's back. As for the idea that evil games are what gives people the wrong idea about D&D: Do you think Stephen King is evil because he wrote horror books? What about the actor that played Freddy Krueger? He basically played a role that made him out to be a psycho killer- far beyond most D&D PCs, btw. Creativity is creativity. It doesn't always have to be goody-goody stuff. In fact, to quite a few of us, after the 5th or so year the whole "I'm gonna stop the evil baddy and save the world" schtick gets to be a tad monotonous. Stating that evil characters are what's wrong with the game is basically telling people how to play the game. When you start telling people that they play D&D wrong, then it's you who becomes the problem. No, it isn't that evil characters ruin the game - it's just that far and away the kind of players who take evil alignments (or in a 'no evil' game a chaotic neutral character played as evil) are the kind who enjoy ****ing with the other players. I have seen evil characters work in a good party, and work very well, but they have to be played carefully and they have to share goals with and never work against the rest of the party. This isn't that.
Elsydeon 02-09-08, 08:15 AM	I have to disagree with that last part Squib. If I'm playing evil in a group of good I am ok with becoming the victim of a short term solution to a problem my character is causing. I don't want to play mindslave to anyone, that's dumb. But, I accepted that my character might turn too disruptive for the game when I first brought up playing evil with the group. If dominate is what it takes for the story to make sense until we reach a point where I can bring in a new PC then so be it.
Draco_Whitewind 02-09-08, 02:33 PM	I have to disagree with that last part Squib. If I'm playing evil in a group of good I am ok with becoming the victim of a short term solution to a problem my character is causing. I don't want to play mindslave to anyone, that's dumb. But, I accepted that my character might turn too disruptive for the game when I first brought up playing evil with the group. If dominate is what it takes for the story to make sense until we reach a point where I can bring in a new PC then so be it. That bold part just caused me severe mental damage. The PCs, even a single, evil one in the group of 3 heroes, has all the right to rip up spikes along a track they are willingly going down.
MrCustomer 02-09-08, 02:34 PM	The Psion is telepathically linked to your Assassin. You should focus your mind on how you threw the knife at the goblin because you saw him reaching for his weapon and because your Sense Motive check beat the Goblin's Bluff rolls What the Goblin may have said, what the Sorceror may have heard, can be very, Very different then the actual situation. The Goblin's may have been bluffing the party, taking advantage of your attempt to negotiate to attack the party unguarded. While the Sorceror may have heard the Goblin say "We come in peace" but your assassin could have seen the Goblin's hand inching towards his sword, recognized the shifty glance to the other Goblins, the unspoken signal to prepare to attack, his Sense Motive saying that the Goblin was bluffing. Your Assassin was doing nothing wrong in initiating the attack before the (inherently Evil and untrustworthy) Goblins ambushed the party. The Unholy weapon is meaningless, your assassin doesn't have detect Good, Goblins are nearly always evil, you can't be responsiible for freaks of nature, and some of the Goblins were Evil, clearly the "good" ones were under their control so it amounts to the same thing. The assassin shouldn't be punished because the gods (DM) screws with the party. If they really and truely believed the Goblins were "good" then why did they join into the attack? why did they use lethal force? Why didn't they capture and heal the Goblins before they reached -10 points? Why didn't they try and stop the fight? As for being Dominated, if the party doesn't trust the assassin, they should release him and kick him out of the party. Dominating him and forcing him to risk life and limb to protect the party is grossly Evil, ensalving a sentient being because you don't trust him? forcing him into danger? Hypocrites, clearly the Psion is Evil for doing so. Demand an allignment change, especially if your assassin gets killed or injured. Enslaving an ally and throwing him into dangerous situations is not an action that Good alligned characters should take. Has your assassin ever endangered the party? Has your assassin ever betrayed the party? Does your assassin not already endanger himself to scout for the party without being dominated? Basically brow beat them. Convey these thoughts to the DM as well, see if he will argue your case. Also hand your Character sheet over to the DM, kick back and leave the room, say well he is an NPC now and look through the PHB and other books with a blank character sheet in hand. Guilt is a great motivator :P
Exposed_Wires 02-09-08, 05:34 PM	As for being Dominated, if the party doesn't trust the assassin, they should release him and kick him out of the party. Dominating him and forcing him to risk life and limb to protect the party is grossly Evil, ensalving a sentient being because you don't trust him? forcing him into danger? Hypocrites, clearly the Psion is Evil for doing so. Demand an allignment change, especially if your assassin gets killed or injured. You're a hypocrite. Enslaving an evil person is perfectly kosher by your standards. You can't argue that and argue that its okay to slay some creatures cause they're typically evil. That double standard alone is enough to make me disregard your whole post. Look, the group did what they thought was a good idea. They're letting him play an evil character in a situation that also protects them from him. They aren't telling him to act as a human shield or set off traps with his face. They are preventing him from causing the group harm. That alone is half the reason evil characters in a good group is a bad idea. Useful NPCs will be killed and their gold is going to be stolen at the very least. At worst, they get betrayed and nobody has a good laugh except the d***. Your suggestion of guilt trips and hissy fits is embarrassing.
MrCustomer 02-09-08, 06:21 PM	You're a hypocrite. Enslaving an evil person is perfectly kosher by your standards. You can't argue that and argue that its okay to slay some creatures cause they're typically evil. That double standard alone is enough to make me disregard your whole post Oh no not a double standard! Evil characters aren't really hypocrites. They are after all Evil! Good characters on the other hand generally have higher standards, and those standards can and should be manipulated by any half decent Evil doer :P Is it ok to slay some creatures because they are typically evil? we could debate the morality of that issue but that wasn't my point at all. My point is that the assassin should be a hypocrite. Yes, although two of the three goblins apparently didn't show up when "detect evil" was used, and one of those two goblins also took some extra damage from my unholy weapon. On the whole, the party took this to mean that I was purposely trying to slaughter a good creature for no particular reason. Can the Party claim or prove that all the Goblins there were LG? No, only that 2 of them didn't show up with Detect Evil, one of the Goblins was detected as Evil. Only one Goblin took extra damage from his Holy weapon, something that the assassin could not have known about ahead of time, therefore cannot be held liable as purposely trying to slaughter a good creature, since he has no prior knowledge that the weapon would behave like this nor really any choice after the fact. He can't purposely do something that he had no knowledge of before it happens. Not only is it extremely likely that a Goblin is Evil, but it is also extremely unlikely that a Goblin is Good, it's even more insanely unlikely for a Good Goblin to be living with an Evil Goblin. Stating that he purposely was harming a good creature when he fights a goblin of undetermined allignment who is allied with an Evil Goblin is a bunk charge. Furthermore if the Evil Goblin, and one Goblin was Evil, is the leader of the group then his minions are fair game and legitimate targets regardless of their allignmentas they are following the evil Further more the Sorceror only overheard the conversation, he did not make any Spot nor Sense Motive checks. The assassin can claim that the Goblin was Bluffing and getting ready to attack, sure the Evil Goblin said "we come in peace" but he was reaching for his sword and my Sense Motive saw right through his lies. It isn't a matter of the assassin telling the truth or a lie, it only matters that his claim cannot be refuted, the sorceror did not make a Spot of Sense Motive roll againstt he goblins and therefore can say little to claim otherwise. Or will the party claim that the Evil Goblin, and one of the Goblins was Evil and the other one was not Good, were honest creatures who would not betray the party? Evil Goblins are hostile and one was Evil. My point is the party is coming down on the Assassin for little reason. The Sorceror was spying on him and the Psion was against him from the start, they were looking for ANY excuse to betray the assassin, and his actions against the Goblins is a very lame reason to betray and enslave their party member like this. The assassin can justify his actions against the Goblins.
Exposed_Wires 02-09-08, 07:25 PM	Oh no not a double standard! Evil characters aren't really hypocrites. They are after all Evil! I wasn't talking about the evil character. I was talking about you. You're a hypocrite. If its okay to attack a typically evil creature without further investigation, it's okay to attack the evil party member who has just broke the camels back. Which isn't even what they did. They just said he couldn't hurt them. Is it ok to slay some creatures because they are typically evil? we could debate the morality of that issue but that wasn't my point at all. My point is that the assassin should be a hypocrite. Can the Party claim or prove that all the Goblins there were LG? No, only that 2 of them didn't show up with Detect Evil, one of the Goblins was detected as Evil. There was an unholy weapon involved. It damaged one of the goblins. Therefore, the goblin was good or it wouldn't have done jack. Let's stop right there for a second. What is this guy rolling around with an unholy weapon in a good party for? That just reeks of intent to betray. Furthermore if the Evil Goblin, and one Goblin was Evil, is the leader of the group then his minions are fair game and legitimate targets regardless of their allignmentas they are following the evil I think the fact that he and the goblins were having a discussion at all implied another outcome was possible. He threw the first punch and his whole group saw. My point is the party is coming down on the Assassin for little reason. The Sorceror was spying on him and the Psion was against him from the start, they were looking for ANY excuse to betray the assassin, and his actions against the Goblins is a very lame reason to betray and enslave their party member like this. The assassin can justify his actions against the Goblins. I'm sure they had already decided he was evil and were simply looking for that last shred of proof they needed to condemn him. They don't want to run with an evil character. Intra-party conflict aside. If the members of the group have different goals, things won't work out. But this situation is worse than that. This guy was hiding his alignment. He didn't strike some mutually beneficial deal with the party. He straight up lied to them. "I'm not gonna murder you with this good-people-killing weapon when it is in my best interest." I'd have ditched him when his alignment came up undetectable. At least these people waited until they felt they were sure.
Elsydeon 02-09-08, 10:49 PM	That bold part just caused me severe mental damage. The PCs, even a single, evil one in the group of 3 heroes, has all the right to rip up spikes along a track they are willingly going down. Sorry, that's how I approach it. I'll do PvP, I'll do evil plots, I'll conspire with the BBEG. But when the group feels like dealing with my abnormal PC is a burden, or he no longer adds fun to the game, then I'll take a little punishment for a session while we figure out how to work it out or I figure out how to bring in a PC that won't be a burden or unfun. That's where my priorities lie. It's not about being ok with railroading in general. Fun>My Character Concept. Anyone who doesn't play that way isn't welcome in my game.
MrCustomer 02-10-08, 02:58 PM	I wasn't talking about the evil character. I was talking about you. You're a hypocrite. If its okay to attack a typically evil creature without further investigation, it's okay to attack the evil party member who has just broke the camels back. Which isn't even what they did. They just said he couldn't hurt them. He attacked a group of typically Evil creatures, one of which WAS DETECTED AS EVIL, I think it is safe to assume that the other 2 Goblins that are allies of the EVIL Goblin are up to no good. And I am not saying it is ok, or supporting his actions. I am stating that this is the arguement that his assassin should make to the party. "What, one of the Goblins was Evil and they were about to rush the party, the Goblin was Bluffing, I have a high Sense Motive skill for a reason, how the heck was I supposed to know a freak of nature good alligned Goblin was hanging out with Evil Goblins. His buddies were Evil, really how was I supposed to know he was closet good" There was an unholy weapon involved. It damaged one of the goblins. Therefore, the goblin was good or it wouldn't have done jack. Let's stop right there for a second. And there is no way he could have known in advance that the Unholy weapon would work on a random Goblin who is allied with an Evil Goblin. Detect Good is not on the assassin spell list and the "good" Goblin is standing right beside an Evil Goblin. As for why he has un Unholy weapon. The party was aware of the Weapon's Unholy ability, and had no objection to him having such a weapon. (actually if the Assassin didn't tell the party about the weapon's effect then they are meta-gaming) I think the fact that he and the goblins were having a discussion at all implied another outcome was possible. He threw the first punch and his whole group saw. He was negotiating with a group of Goblins, one at least of whom was Evil. He could have succeeded in an opposed Sense Motive roll and a Spot Check and realized that the Goblins were about to rush them. The Sorcerer did not make a Sense Motive nor any Spot checks, in short he only heard what the Goblins were saying, he made no attempt to determine if they were Bluffing or not. So I am saying the Assassin should claim that the Goblins were going to rush the party. I'm sure they had already decided he was evil and were simply looking for that last shred of proof they needed to condemn him. They don't want to run with an evil character. Intra-party conflict aside. If the members of the group have different goals, things won't work out. But this situation is worse than that. This guy was hiding his alignment. He didn't strike some mutually beneficial deal with the party. He straight up lied to them. "I'm not gonna murder you with this good-people-killing weapon when it is in my best interest." Yes he hid his allignment, but he also acted with the interest of the party and had in no way betrayed them. Yes the party has good cause to not trust an Evil person, and they have good cause to say they have opposed goals. Therefore the party should have reached a consenses and kicked him out of the party long ago (like when they discovered he was an assassin back in a city earlier) The wrong way to go about removing a person from your party is to keep him in your party for months waiting for the opportune time to betray him while deep in a dungeon during an adventure. I'd have ditched him when his alignment came up undetectable. At least these people waited until they felt they were sure. Yes the right thing to do is to ouste him from the party when they discovered he was evil, months earlier in the city. The wrong thing to do is to bring him deep into a dungeon while ploting for the opportune time to betray and enslave him.
MrCustomer 02-10-08, 03:35 PM	BTW, for the orriginal poster, You were set up. The Psion (and possibly the Sorcerer) set up the assassin and arranged ahead of time with the DM to spring this suprise. two of the three goblins apparently didn't show up when "detect evil" was used, and one of those two goblins also took some extra damage from my unholy weapon. On the whole, the party took this to mean that I was purposely trying to slaughter a good creature for no particular reason Here is what I suspect actually happened: -The Psion dominates the minds or charms a couple of Goblins, and uses undetectable allignment or misdirection type spell/ability to hide some of their allignments.(possibly with the Sorcerer's help, who is also in on the action) Either that or whoever cast the Detect Evil spell is not telling the truth, was it the Sorceror or Psion who used Detect Evil? One is left Evil to detract suspision of their possible good alignment from the assassin. -The Goblins talk, but are deliberately insulting to antagonize the Assassin. -The Sorcerer dons his helm of comprehend language, knowing ahead of time that the Goblins won't say anything hostile, because they need a witness. -During the fight, either the Psion or the Sorcerer manage to buff the Assassins weapon and deal extra damage when he hits the Goblin, or the Psion readies an action to use his powers to damage the Goblin when the Assassin hits, making it appear like the weapon dealt extra damage. Or even a contigency spell cast ahead of time on the Goblin. Facts that don't add up: -Sorcerer uses helm of comprehend languages, placing it on or activating it, but doesn't declare what he is doing in advance to the DM, so the assassin is unaware that he is being listened in upon. -Goblins are non-hostile, but choose to deliberately provoke the assassin by throwing insults. This isn't rational on their part. If they are afraid of the party, then they would be groveling, if they were "peacable" Goblins then they wouldn't be picking a fight like this. This is like me walking into a biker bar and saying to their leader "I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your girlfriend is an ugly *****" Then my buddy later paraphrases me as saying "I'm not trying to pick a fight" -Goblins have Detect Evil cast on them, Who cast this spell? -One Goblin is confirmed as being Evil. -One Goblin is later revealed to be Good when the weapon does extra damage. It makes little sense that a Good Creature would be living in harmony with an Evil creature. Such a spread of allignments among such a small group of typically Evil monsters cries out that something is amiss. This is a What The....?!?! moment for the assassin I think you need to replay the moment carefully, round per round from the beginning and you are very likely to see that you were set up. Questions to ask are : -Did the Sorcerer or Psion have oportunities to be seperate from the group? -Do they have Misdirection or Undetectable Allignment on their spell lists? -What is the possibility they have a Scrolls with Undetectable Allignment? -Can the Assassin back track and look for the used Scroll, or search their possessions for one? -How was the extra damage from the Unholy weapon determined? Did your Assassin roll the extra damage or did the DM announce that it did X amount of extra damage was done? BTW the fun part of this is that you don't have to be right, you only need to sow the seeds of doubt in the mind of the rest of the party that the Psion set you up :)
Drackthor 02-10-08, 03:47 PM	BTW, for the orriginal poster, You were set up. The Psion and Sorcerer set up the assassin and arranged ahead of time with the DM to spring this suprise. Here is what I suspect actually happened: -The Psion dominates the minds or charms a couple of Goblins, and uses undetectable allignment or misdirection type spell/ability to hide some of their allignments.(possibly with the Sorcerer's help, who is also in on the action) Either that or whoever cast the Detect Evil spell is not telling the truth, was it the Sorceror or Psion who used Detect Evil? One is left Evil to detract suspision of their possible good alignment from the assassin. -The Goblins talk, but are deliberately insulting to antagonize the Assassin. -The Sorcerer dons his helm of comprehend language, knowing ahead of time that the Goblins won't say anything hostile, because they need a witness. -During the fight, either the Psion or the Sorcerer manage to buff the Assassins weapon and deal extra damage when he hits the Goblin, or the Psion readies an action to use his powers to damage the Goblin when the Assassin hits, making it appear like the weapon dealt extra damage. Or even a contigency spell cast ahead of time on the Goblin. Facts that don't add up: -Sorcerer uses helm of comprehend languages, placing it on or activating it, but doesn't declare what he is doing in advance to the DM, so the assassin is unaware that he is being listened in upon. -Goblins are non-hostile, but choose to deliberately provoke the assassin by throwing insults. This isn't rational on their part. If they are afraid of the party, then they would be groveling, if they were "peacable" Goblins then they wouldn't be picking a fight like this. This is like me walking into a biker bar and saying to their leader "I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your girlfriend is an ugly *****" Then my buddy later paraphrases me as saying "I'm not trying to pick a fight" -Goblins have Detect Evil cast on them, Who cast this spell? -One Goblin is confirmed as being Evil. -One Goblin is later revealed to be Good when the weapon does extra damage. It makes little sense that a Good Creature would be living in harmony with an Evil creature. Such a spread of allignments among such a small group of typically Evil monsters cries out that something is amiss. This is a What The....?!?! moment for the assassin I think you need to replay the moment carefully, round per round from the beginning and you are very likely to see that you were set up. Questions to ask are : -Did the Sorcerer or Psion have oportunities to be seperate from the group? -Do they have Misdirection or Undetectable Allignment on their spell lists? -What is the possibility they have a Scrolls with Undetectable Allignment? -Can the Assassin back track and look for the used Scroll, or search their possessions for one? -How was the extra damage from the Unholy weapon determined? Did your Assassin roll the extra damage or did the DM announce that it did X amount of extra damage was done? BTW the fun part of this is that you don't have to be right, you only need to sow the seeds of doubt in the mind of the rest of the party that the Psion set you up :) Sounds to me like your name shouldn't be MrCustomer, but instead, MrDetective. :tongue:
Zombie_Babies 02-11-08, 09:44 AM	No, it isn't that evil characters ruin the game - it's just that far and away the kind of players who take evil alignments (or in a 'no evil' game a chaotic neutral character played as evil) are the kind who enjoy ****ing with the other players. I have seen evil characters work in a good party, and work very well, but they have to be played carefully and they have to share goals with and never work against the rest of the party. This isn't that. Umm. That's all well and good but... I was responding to another post that specifically stated evil characters do ruin the game. And that evil games foster a bad impression of the game as a whole. In fact, if you read my entire post you'd have seen that I agreed that the OP was evil for the wrong reasons, as it were. I stated that the reason I provided advice that could help was because I did not believe he'd listen to lectures so I figured I'd at least help him RP an assassin properly. Not sure what the argument is here.
Dunsel 02-11-08, 04:57 PM	I don't see how I'm being a tool by aiming to kill my party off. I like this quote the best. Apparently, the definition of "tool" eludes the OP.
Zombie_Babies 02-11-08, 05:06 PM	I don't see how I'm being a tool by aiming to kill my party off. Yeah. All my hard work trying to convince people that evil != bad RP or bad press for the game and we get this. I'd almost consider it sig-worthy but I like to distance myself from, well, this sort of thinking. I still support most evil PCs and evil games. They are a ton of fun and can work beautifully. I cannot endorse anything the above poster does as it is not a reflection of this belief. Trust me. We aren't all like this...
Elsydeon 02-12-08, 03:52 AM	It's not innately bad even to try and kill the party, guys. It's all about making sure the party is ok with it before you try it. You do realize there are players that like the twists every once in a while. Sure, it kills the surprise element by letting them know, but being cautious is WAY more important. And if you're not in a group mature enough to avoid metagaming then you shouldn't try it in the first place. My second character was an assassin for Palpatine in Star Wars. Out to kill the leader of the group. It led to some crazy stuff, and in the end (I never thought he would. He knew what was coming, didn't care, was willing to help with the slaughter. One major plot point and an unexpected moment where he had to make a decision that went against his messed up nature to continue serving Palpatine and there you go) he turned to the light side and pulled all but one character out of the fire when the purge began. Couldn't save the one guy. Characters are fluid. Players should be mature. Some people actually enjoy the idea that their character is worthy of an assassin's ire. It's an ego boost of sorts. And they dig the challenge of having someone working against them without their knowledge. Seriously, this guy may be wrong, but there is no blanket statement that works for evil actions. Everything comes down to player maturity and openness. To OP, if you're still reading, you definitely shouldn't make statements like "I don't see how I'm being a tool by aiming to kill off my party" unless you can add "because we all agreed it would be ok with each player ahead of time if it happened, and at any time if my evil burdens the game I'm willing to quit it."